Is this Murder?

[Xerxes]

Story :-X (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=573&ncid=757&e=1&u=/nm/20021212/od_nm/cannibal_dc)

This german man successfully solicited on the internet for a guy who would volunteer to have his penis sliced off and subsequently flambe'ed and eaten, and then killed. He was looking for another volunteer when he was arrested...

:confused:

[Anacific]

WTF!? Of course that's a murder.
Sick!

[Xerxes]

My thought about this is if Suicide is legalized, than it opens the field up to terrible things like this. :igor:

[Magic_Midget]

i guess the guy wanted to go out in style...but thanks xerxes for making me loose my lunch

*goes out and throws grilled hot dogs in trash*:hang:

[Xerxes]

http://chnm.gmu.edu/lostmuseum/images/bro-tom.jpg

You never know with my posts of news of bizzare creatures and curious prodigies, come one come all :p

[dam]

OMG! Thats crazy, not to mentions sick.

[duet maxwell]

messed up! O_o:eek:

[Sandman2012]

from the article
"The deed appears to stem from cannibalistic and homosexual tendencies shared by both men," police said on Wednesday in a statement...

Aren't the police overlooking the men's homicidal and suicidal natures a bit? Or is it just that the words cannibal and homosexual are more sensational and sell more papers? :igor:

[zootm]

yeah, somebody posted the bbc news report on our uni chatroom. sickening.

[J. Burnaway]

I just can't picture some guy, freshly "dewangified", tasting his own unit and calmly stating, "you know, this really would taste better fried"...:igor:

[RanDom_ErrOr]

lol, thanks, i needed a laugh today :D

[Xerxes]

Originally posted by J. Burnaway
I just can't picture some guy, freshly "dewangified", tasting his own unit and calmly stating, "you know, this really would taste better fried"...:igor:

Yeah, ever since Hannibal Lecter all human flesh eaters are such gourmets. "Human phallus flambeed with a light wine sauce" :weird:

[Some1]

Is this Murder?

Not if the dude that got killed was truly a willing participant...I guess it depends on exactly what the videos show, but if that guy really was a willing participant, then nothing illegal occured (though I guess the cannibalism is kind of a gray area)...it's basically the same thing as a physician assisted suicide, except in this case, the "physician" was demented and fucked up.

[patroclus22]

Probably Manslaughter, not Murder.

[Bilbo Baggins]

Cannabalism is a normal practice amongst some pacific people.

[Bop]

"Mmmmm, jam doughnut..."

[hestermofet]

"Ich bin ein Berliner!"
http://www.gramss.de/tk/images/g-krapfen.gif

[White Raven]

That is the most perverted, disturbing, and utterly weirdest thing I have ever heard. You'd have to have two very weird, messed up people to want to submit to that kind of thing...

And how could the dead dude possibly have gotten anything out of it? He had his... 'member' cut off, so he couldn't have gotten any jizzums out of it.

[blumoon11]

This is just ver very sick and disgusting:igor:
By the way did the victim eat of his penis as well?

[White Raven]

Originally posted by blumoon11
This is just ver very sick and disgusting:igor:
By the way did the victim eat of his penis as well?

Yep, he did. Read the report more closely.

And question: How do you post pictures so that they show up as pics in the post and not as attachments?

[capitan3]

Funny thing i just heard it on the news. Crazy people. they should get fried for it, for been a murderer and a sicko.

[pixiefied]

hmmm..baked penis.or even stirfry penis in white wine...hmmmm.

[Trigear]

you know you like it raw :P

[pixiefied]

oh yes! and with a little bit of white sauce on the side!

[meaisl8again]

The dead man apparently replied to an advertisement posted on the Internet, prosecutors said. One newspaper said it read: "Seeking young, well-built 18- to 30-year-old for slaughter."

Well, at least he doesn't mind voicing his needs.

By the way, that jelly doughnut reminded me of something my grandfather did once. He was the owner/publisher of a small town paper. There was a car accident in this town called Jolly. (real small texas town.) The next day, the headline was, "JOLLY CRASH KILLS TWO". They didn't catch the problem until the next day, as they were prepping the article at like 3 am. :) It's funny right now, but it wasn't at the time. Oh well. :D The townspeople thought it was funny after a bit as well.

Lots of love,
Mea

[Trigear]

i like what royal tenenbaum did, at the end of his movie.

when he died he had something very heroic and very untrue engraved onto his tombstone. like "died selflessly pulling small children out of a burning house" or something like that... that and the father in "toys" who had a laugh box planted in his coffin right before the funeral.

i don't want people to be sad when i die. i want them to miss me, but i also want them to remember me cheerfully instead of gloomily. i don't see death as something to mope excessively over.

[binary hero]

is this murder?

yes:

before carving him up and freezing the man's remaining body parts to eat later
...
how can that be manslaughter, accidental death or anything else?

[meaisl8again]

That's a good point. But here's a question. If you let yourself be killed, does that count as suicide? Or murder? Or both? If you wanted to die, it would sort of be an odd situation there. It's like consentual murder or something. Weird.

Lots of love,
Mea

[Some1]

how can that be manslaughter, accidental death or anything else?

It's "assisted suicide"...just a REALLY bizarre case of assisted suicide. As long as there's ample evidence that the guy who got killed and eaten wanted to get killed and eaten, then the other guy shouldn't be sent to jail...a mental hospital maybe, but not jail. Laws against killing are based upon the premise that people don't want to be killed, and in this case the premise doesn't apply, so neither should the law.

[binary hero]

Originally posted by meaisl8again
That's a good point. But here's a question. If you let yourself be killed, does that count as suicide? Or murder? Or both? If you wanted to die, it would sort of be an odd situation there. It's like consentual murder or something. Weird.

Lots of love,
Mea
it depends on the situation, letting yourself be killed by falling rubble is suicide, but letting yourself be killed by a person is murder (this is based on the fact that there is someone performing the 'ending of life')

(check your PM's mea)

[meaisl8again]

It's "assisted suicide"...

But what is assisted suicide anyway? Does that count as murder, since another person is involved in killing another? Or is it just suicide? I thought that assisted suicide just provided the tools needed for a painless death. This seems like the eater person (for lack of a better description at the moment) was actually taking part in the killing of the other. :igor: :weird: :confused: I'm so confused...

Lots of love,
Mea

[Some1]

assisted suicide
n.
Suicide accomplished with the aid of another person, especially a physician.

Does that count as murder, since another person is involved in killing another?

Legally speaking, it's kind of a gray area...personally speaking, I feel that if somebody comes up to you and expresses a wish to die and asks for help, then it's fine for you to give it to them...though I don't see why slicing them open with a knife would be necessary when you could just hand them a plastic bag and say "here, have fun..."

I thought that assisted suicide just provided the tools needed for a painless death.

That's how it's usually used...like I said, this is a bizarre case of assisted suicide.

[meaisl8again]

I'm starting to visualize the fuzzy line here.

Did the cannibal cross the line, though, by physically touching the other person during the suicide? Isn't it illegal for the doctor to 'tug the string' when it's the IV type assistance, or for them to 'fit the mask' onto the person, when it's a toxic gas that kills them? Would this guy's slicing force this into the category of murder?

Lots of love,
Mea

[binary hero]

Originally posted by meaisl8again
I'm starting to visualize the fuzzy line here.

Did the cannibal cross the line, though, by physically touching the other person during the suicide? Isn't it illegal for the doctor to 'tug the string' when it's the IV type assistance, or for them to 'fit the mask' onto the person, when it's a toxic gas that kills them? Would this guy's slicing force this into the category of murder?

Lots of love,
Mea
that's what i was trying to say with my rubble.

[meaisl8again]

Want some of my coffee? ;)

Lots of love,
Mea

[binary hero]

YES!

[Some1]

Isn't it illegal for the doctor to 'tug the string' when it's the IV type assistance, or for them to 'fit the mask' onto the person, when it's a toxic gas that kills them?

I'm not sure what the law says regarding the actual methodology used, but I do know that legally speaking, assisted suicide is not allowed in the vast majority of places, in any form...that aside though, I think more important than the level of physical involvement that the person giving assistance has in the suicide, is how sure that they were that the person that they were "assisting" wanted to die (i.e. is it something that they planned out well in advance, through the course of multiple conversations, or was it more along the lines of: "You know, I've always wondered what it would be like to be dead." "Well, I could help you find out..." "Really?" "Yes." *BANG*). I think the tapes are what should be used to determine whether it was an assisted suicide or a murder. If the guy getting killed sits there and takes it without protest, then I think it's clearly a case of assisted suicide...if he had ANY desire to live whatsoever, he would have fought back at the last moment, or screamed, or something...so if he just calmly sat there and let himself be cut open then I don't think that there should be any grounds for a murder charge.

[binary hero]

but...nobody would sit there and be cut open for the simple reason that it HURTS. That's a bit like saying, with the assisted suicide thing, if you wince as you stick the needle in your arm, you don't want to do it. so, where do you draw the line? if they scream because their leg has just been cut off, should it be murder?

[Some1]

but...nobody would sit there and be cut open for the simple reason that it HURTS.

I'm assuming that the guy who let himself be killed got REALLY doped up before the actual event...at least, I hope he did. I think the line needs to be drawn at probable consent...if they flinch away from the knife/needle/whatever before it touches them then no consent, but if they do nothing more than wince from the pain, then yes consent...similarly if they cry out, as long as they're not yelling something like "stop" or "no" or some similar thing, then you can still infer consent...so as long as he sat there and didn't try to fight the other guy off or run away or struggle to prevent the guy from finishing his cut(s) or yell at the guy to stop then I think it counts as consentual.

or for them to 'fit the mask' onto the person, when it's a toxic gas that kills them?

For the sake of informational accuracy...the gas typically used in assisted suicides (or regular suicides of the same nature) is not inherently toxic (99% of the time...most toxic gases have unfortunate, and painful, side-effects)...a normally benign gas, such as nitrogen, or helium, CO2, or even laughing gas is used. When breathed through a mask (or inside most any enclosed space) the inert gas will replace all the oxygen in your lungs, causing you to asphyxiate without feeling like you are suffocating, because you can continue to breathe normally, and there's no CO2 buildup in your lungs (holding your breath for a long time is unpleasant because of the CO2 buildup, not because of the oxygen lack), so you black out fairly quickly, and then die a few minutes later.

[psycheb]

in australia (or the state of queensland anyway), suicide is a crime punishable by (a minimum?) life imprisonment. Althought that sounds totally pointless, i'm pretty sure that assisting a crime or otherwise being a party to a crime holds the same sentance as the crime itself. therefor from that logic u'd be looking towards a life imprisonment for assisting a suicide... in queensland, australia anyway

i dunno how this would relate to other places of the world, but it's likely a similar case? just a guess and a bit of info for yas

-hugz

edit: first post :)

[Mr Jones]

This all goes to prove one thing, you can get absolutely ANYTHING on the net.....

[binary hero]

Originally posted by psycheb
in australia (or the state of queensland anyway), suicide is a crime punishable by (a minimum?) life imprisonment. Althought that sounds totally pointless, i'm pretty sure that assisting a crime or otherwise being a party to a crime holds the same sentance as the crime itself. therefor from that logic u'd be looking towards a life imprisonment for assisting a suicide... in queensland, australia anyway

i dunno how this would relate to other places of the world, but it's likely a similar case? just a guess and a bit of info for yas

-hugz

edit: first post :)
why is it pointless? in a monitored environment like a prison, with constant psychiatric care, you could save a life.

(welcome to the forums)

[meaisl8again]

Which brings me to ask, is it always worth it to try and save a human life? :confused: This is a legit question: I'm not sure I have a definiate opinion on this subject.

Lots of love,
Mea

Edit: Welcome to the forums!

[binary hero]

yes, it is. If you don't save the life for the person you are saving, it is worth it for the affect it will have on family/friends.

[meaisl8again]

Sometimes I wonder though. If a person doesn't have family/friends, and they truly don't want to live anymore: say terminal illness, mental problems, et cetera, should we really intervene if they don't want us to? :confused:

Lots of love,
Mea

[binary hero]

"if they have a mental illness" should be ruled out of this
so should people with a terminal illness, euthinasia is different (that's controlled consentual suicide - the assisted suicide of earlier on in this thread).

I don't believe anybody has no reason at all to live (though this may just be my closed-world view), even if you are homeless, no food, money, clothes, shelter, friends, family there are still people who care about you - that's the reason behind the hundreds of charities.

and why kill yourself, even if you have nothing, if you have nothing then logically, your life can only get better (or you die anyway).

[meaisl8again]

It couldn't get better if you were, say, a child pedophile in prison, who was in for 100 years+. They'd be in constant pain from having to grab their ankles all day. And rightly so might I add. :mad: Regardless, I'm just toying with this idea, though I probably shouldn't. :p Gets me turning my cogs, and that's dangerous. :)

Lots of love,
Mea

[binary hero]

Originally posted by meaisl8again
It couldn't get better if you were, say, a child pedophile in prison, who was in for 100 years+. They'd be in constant pain from having to grab their ankles all day. And rightly so might I add. :mad: Regardless, I'm just toying with this idea, though I probably shouldn't. :p Gets me turning my cogs, and that's dangerous. :)

unless he is gay...
but he still has family to think of, no matter how much pain he is in, suicide has an amazingly profound effect on everybody who knew him (look at what happened with mizter_e/robert)

[Some1]

yes, it is. If you don't save the life for the person you are saving, it is worth it for the affect it will have on family/friends.

No, it isn't...what if they are in terrible, mind-rending pain? You are going to force them to go on living just because their death would cause their family/friends some temporary emotional pain? If so then you sir, are a jerk. If this person's family and friends gave a rat's ass about anybody other than themselves, then they'd see that their friend is in pain, and they'd want their friend to end the pain by any way possible, and they'd understand it if their friend did decide to kill himself to escape the pain. Aside from this, the real bottom line is that my life belongs to ME and nobody else, not my family, or my friends, or society, and I am entitled to do whatever I want with MY life, including ending it if I so desire, and nobody has any right to try and stop me.

Also, having a law explicitly against suicide is just pointless, as anyone who actually commits suicide is going to be dead (obviously), and what the hell are you going to do, lock up their dead body? Having a law against ATTEMPTED suicide would make a little bit more sense, but it would still suck in that it deprives people of something that is every individual's right.

[meaisl8again]

I forgot to put assuming he has no family... Darn those loopholes. I see what you're saying though. :) Morally speaking, I've decided that people should try to intervene if other's try to kill themselves. I think.

Lots of love,
Mea

[binary hero]

Originally posted by Some1


No, it isn't...what if they are in terrible, mind-rending pain? You are going to force them to go on living just because their death would cause their family/friends some temporary emotional pain
i didn't think of that, i agree totally with euthanasia which would be preferable to being carved up alive for a midnight snack.

[Dazfish]

nobody here ever "put down" a pet or other animal for the reason that it was in too much pain that could not be cured, if it can be done for an animal why are humans forced against their will to continue thier life of suffering?

edit: first post, well, one of the 1st ;)

[binary hero]

Originally posted by Dazfish
edit: first post, well, one of the 1st ;)
first...hundred and eightyth...not much of a difference eh?

[Some1]

I think the problem is that people are looking for universal contexts under which suicide is justifiable, and because suicide is an individual choice, these sorts of contexts just don't exist. Consider a Wall Street broker, who feels that the only thing that counts in life is making money, which is something he's damn good at...one day he decides to sleep in a few hours for the hell of it, and when he gets to the stock market, he finds that the crash of the century has hit, and he is now completely bankrupt...now this poor guy's world has just collapsed in on itself, and everything that he cared about (his money) has vanished in the blink of an eye. He may very well feel that suicide is the only option left to him in this circumstance, and given his interpretation of life, this is a valid conclusion for him to rech. However, contrast this with a man who cares about nothimg more than his girlfriend, and the love which they share...he will look at the broker and his decision to kill himself and say "man, that's just stupid, at least you can still take the time to be with the one you love," but if one day he were to come home, and find his girlfriend dead, or simply gone, then HIS world will have come crashing down, and he may very well see suicide as the only thing left for him. The broker, looking at this situation, may say "you'd kill yourself over a chick? That's just moronic, think of all the cool stuff that you own." Both of them have their own interpretations of the world and of life, and thus of what circumstances would justify suicide, and neither one of their interpretations can be said to be "wrong." One cares about love, the other cares about money, and both are perfectly valid standpoints to hold, yet both also yeild radically different views on what would be an adequate reason for suicide. This is why it's important to recognize that suicide is an individual choice, made for personal reasons, and while a person's reasons may seem completely off-base to you, it is up to this person, as an individual, to determine what does and what does not count as a valid reason for suicide given their personal beliefs and values. Therefore if somebody decides to kill themselves you shouldn't try to judge them and say something like "don't be stupid, think about how you have this, that, and the other," as it's entirely likely that they don't give a rat's ass about this, that, or the other, and while you might, you don't get to impose your beliefs onto the rest of humanity...if somebody wants to care about nothing but money, then they're entitled to do so, and if somebody wants to get so wrapped up in a relationship that they'd kill themselves if things go south, then they're entitled to do that as well...but I guess I'll stop here before this turns into a long rant about existentialism and moral subjectivity.

[binary hero]

that's possibly the best post i have read all year.

legs to stand on: 0

[Dazfish]

Originally posted by Some1
I think the problem is that people are looking for universal contexts under which suicide is justifiable, and because suicide is an individual choice, these sorts of contexts just don't exist. Consider a Wall Street broker, who feels that the only thing that counts in life is making money, which is something he's damn good at...one day he decides to sleep in a few hours for the hell of it, and when he gets to the stock market, he finds that the crash of the century has hit, and he is now completely bankrupt...now this poor guy's world has just collapsed in on itself, and everything that he cared about (his money) has vanished in the blink of an eye. He may very well feel that suicide is the only option left to him in this circumstance, and given his interpretation of life, this is a valid conclusion for him to rech. However, contrast this with a man who cares about nothimg more than his girlfriend, and the love which they share...he will look at the broker and his decision to kill himself and say "man, that's just stupid, at least you can still take the time to be with the one you love," but if one day he were to come home, and find his girlfriend dead, or simply gone, then HIS world will have come crashing down, and he may very well see suicide as the only thing left for him. The broker, looking at this situation, may say "you'd kill yourself over a chick? That's just moronic, think of all the cool stuff that you own." Both of them have their own interpretations of the world and of life, and thus of what circumstances would justify suicide, and neither one of their interpretations can be said to be "wrong." One cares about love, the other cares about money, and both are perfectly valid standpoints to hold, yet both also yeild radically different views on what would be an adequate reason for suicide. This is why it's important to recognize that suicide is an individual choice, made for personal reasons, and while a person's reasons may seem completely off-base to you, it is up to this person, as an individual, to determine what does and what does not count as a valid reason for suicide given their personal beliefs and values. Therefore if somebody decides to kill themselves you shouldn't try to judge them and say something like "don't be stupid, think about how you have this, that, and the other," as it's entirely likely that they don't give a rat's ass about this, that, or the other, and while you might, you don't get to impose your beliefs onto the rest of humanity...if somebody wants to care about nothing but money, then they're entitled to do so, and if somebody wants to get so wrapped up in a relationship that they'd kill themselves if things go south, then they're entitled to do that as well...but I guess I'll stop here before this turns into a long rant about existentialism and moral subjectivity.

:weird:



:cry::cry::cry::cry:

[zootm]

Originally posted by binary hero
that's possibly the best post i have read all year.
it's certainly up there.


my point is that people who are driven to suicide often don't realise (and i know this isn't always the case) that they've hit the bottom - it's all up from here. there's a lot of people who never realise that things will get better. the largest tragedy is when someone commits suicide because they feel like they can't go on - the people that, just when their effort was going to be rewarded, decide they don't have any more to put in. or the people who think they have no-one to talk to simply because they assume that people don't want to talk to them. this is as close to the definition of a tragedy as i can think of.

[meaisl8again]

I think what I'm getting from this is that I hope nobody would ever have to deal with the thought of suicide with regard to a personal decision; however, it is their life. But I don't necessarily believe that I wouldn't want to stop them. Isn't there a rediculously high percentage of people who attempt suicide that want to live as soon as they make their attempt? It's weird. Really weird. It's a decision once made that cannot be reversed, yet they wish it to be reversed.

I'm confused, yet again. I do agree with some1, and I also consider bh to have raised some valid points.

Thank goodness nobody else has to swim through the maze of my mind.

Lots of love,
Mea

[binary hero]

dazfish:
1. your sig is too big...far too big, read the announcement
2. why quote a huge post just to add a couple of smileys?!

mea - it's a sad fact, but many people don't take death (suicide) seriously enough.

[Dazfish]

/wanders out the bar
/looks back
/continues walking

[Dazfish]

/pops head back in the door for a second

on my way out id like to point out to bh, on a thread i made not long after i registed (under 2 months ago), this (http://www.buriedshadows.com/dino.jpg) was posted and was quoted no less than twice, and this (http://home.primus.ca/~bakht/xtra/dino.png) was posted and quoted no less than 5 times

when you are a mod i will accept your critisism, ok, i have re-read the rules and my sig is too big, i have renamed it on my webspace accordingly so it is nolonger viewable and will replace it with a smaller version when i am able to

but as for the quote, that is not dis-allowed, only discouraged, and flaming someone over such an act just isnt nice, if you want to complain about the way i post either pm me or email a mod

[hestermofet]

Originally posted by Some1
stuff

The thing you are forgetting is hope.
<insert cliche about suicide being a permanent solution to a temporary problem>

Like zoot noted, once you've hit rock-bottom, the only way to go is up. There's always the chance that the Wall Street banker will live to see the market recover, or that the enamoured man will find another, greater love. When you are in a suicidal state of mind, you are hardly in a position to make rational decisions. This makes it necessary for others (i.e. the State, your family) to make decisions for you.

[J. Burnaway]

I think it is murder, because the man who did the killing actively searched for, and found, someone mentally ill enough to want his penis cut off and then be killed. Taking advantage of someone that sick is not justifiable under any circumstances. If he were some scammer who took advantage of a rich mentally ill person and stole all his money, I don't think we would call it "assisted bankruptcy".

[Some1]

The thing you are forgetting is hope.
<insert cliche about suicide being a permanent solution to a temporary problem>


You are forgetting all of the stuff, and also the fact that a cliche does not a valid argument make, unless you actually back it up with something...

Like zoot noted, once you've hit rock-bottom, the only way to go is up.

This is another cliche, and there are TWO ways to go: up, or forward along the bottom...also, it relies on the flawed assumption that somebody can tell where the "bottom" is. Somebody may get up one day, and have literally the worst day of their life, go to bed and feel better the next day, and say "whoa, I really hit the bottom there"...but then they go to bed, get up, and the next day is a repeat of the first, except this time they also have a raging stomach virus that causes them to vomit all over themselves and the people around them...repeatedly. They might then say "now THIS, this is truly as bad as it can get," except the next day is exactly the same, and their arm gets ripped off...and so on. The point is, this "bottom" of which you speak doesn't really exist, and just because a person thinks they have hit rock bottom doesn't mean that they really have, and what they consider to be "rock bottom" is based upon their previous experiences and subjective interpretations and is thus subject to change at any time...so your assertion that people can somehow know when they have hit the "bottom" and that once they have reached this point that things can only get better is worthless on its face. Besides, nobody who has retained the use of all their limbs can really can say that they've hit bottom, and even if they were a multiple involuntary amputee then they'd have to have some termininal, debilitating, extremely painful disease to go with the loss of limb(s) in order to even be in contention for the "I've hit the bottom" club. But the question isn't about "where is the point at which all following points MUST be higher up?", it's about "what are the individual circumstances under which suicide is justifiable?", and this is something that each individual has to decide for themselves.

There's always the chance that the Wall Street banker will live to see the market recover,

It doesn't matter, his money is ALL gone, so even if the market rebounds 1,000,000%, he stil has nothing, because 1,000,000% of 0 is still 0, and even if he did somehow find money again, he'd be prohibited from ever entering the stock market again by the Wall Street Gestapo, whose sole purpose it is to keep losers who went bankrupt playing the market from using up the successful people's air...my hypothetical universe, my rules.

enamoured man will find another, greater love.

No, his love was the greaterest ever, and he was aware of this fact.