Some advices for people trying to skin...

[Adil]

okay everyone, I'm starting this thread to share some of my knowledge and help the newbies in their skinning attempt.
If you don't agree with anything on this page, don't bother posting cause this is a page I made for helping people not to debate.

First thing I would love people to understand that a skin is not made by photoshop but by the designer, so please stop using those photoshop bevels and other effects randomly on a boring shape like a circle/oval...
try to draw something instead of using the circles tool, and before you draw, you need to have the image of the skin in your mind, keep thinking of the final skin all the time. That way you'll fix more flaws while you're still drawing it.

Second thing, don't think too abstract. There are rules you need to follow to make a good skin:
The beginning of your skin design must be as realistic as possible, keep the extra fancy stuff for the end.
For example, start designing something with a display, good buttons, volume knob/slider... all the stuff that a true stereo has... it's only after you have all those elements that you should start implementing extras, like drawers and thinger for example.

Third and last thing for now is the way you work with photoshop, I personally always start with a blank 500x500 pixels image, then I create the first layer, draw the basic shape in black and then if the shape is right I start planing the lcd, buttons and the rest. If the shape is not right, remove it immediately and start from scratch... a bad shape is hard to fix after you started organizing stuff on it.

oh a little post note for many skinning noobs here: making something that you like is not a pretext for doing something ugly and then post it as if it was the new terminator movie with a huge title and slogan.
when you're a noob you're skinning to improve your skills not to compete with the best skins so having that fake advertising to promote your skin or making a top cool logo wont get you any further as long as your skin doesn't deserve it.

I hope this little message will help some of you cause to be honest, the new skinning attempts I've seen here these last weeks are very disappointing and all the good skinners are gone tired of the attitude of some people here.
I'm also not gonna be here as often as I used to be.

Thanks for reading and good luck.

- Adil

[Atmo]

While i dont agree with everything adil just said he does make some good points.

May as well add some more tips...

Read as many tutorials as you can, they're a great way to learn how to do something, but incorporating everything you learn in tut's into a skin takes practice. So instead of sitting down and trying to make a skin straight away, try some designing instead.

There's nothing wrong with using a bevel filter, but to get a decent looking 3d effect gradients and airbrushing are required. Gradients and the airbrush tool are your friends, get to know them.

When you're starting to learn graphics, i think its best to keep it simple. A 100+ layer image can be very difficult to work with when you need to fix or move something...especially when you havent labelled the layers.

Adils tip about incorporating the basic controls first is a good one, but i'd like to add to that by saying that its also important that you take the placement of the other elements into account when you're placing the basic buttons. Otherwise you may find yourself running out of room before all the controls are added. A quick sketch on paper is a great way to do this.

Whether you're a begginner or a seasoned skinner, you should always skin for yourself, and do what YOU want to do with it. Listen to the advice of others, but remember that its your skin, and if someone requests a feature or change that you dont want then you dont have to do it. Your skin will never please everyone, just as long as you're happy with it then you've done well.

Oh yeh, skinning should always be for fun, not for competition. :)

[Gonzotek]

Don't be afraid to ask for help.
Don't be afraid to ignore that help if you don't think it works for you.

Remember, this forum isn't just for showcasing the best skinner's works. It's for allowing everyone to learn skinning and scripting and encouraging them to improve. You shouldn't feel afraid that your skin is too ugly or simple to post. Even ugly skins should, at the least, be fully functioning and bug-free.

-=Gonzotek=-

[Adil]

Originally posted by Gonzotek
Don't be afraid to ask for help.
Don't be afraid to ignore that help if you don't think it works for you.
-=Gonzotek=-

True, everyone has the right to ask for help in this forum, and the response from the older members has always been good to the people who need help.

The noobs I don't like are those who post something unbelievably ugly and unaesthetic and think they will have a fan club for that.
They even try to compete with some great skins riping ideas and features that made the success of those skins.

Reply to atmo's post:
Tutorials can help but not everyone needs them.
I personally never used any tutorial.
I like to see people developing their own style and imagination.
Inspiration comes from many things around you, not only tutorials.

-Adil

[VooDoo`]

nice tips I can agree with atmo about the tutorialsgood tutorials can be found here:
- http://robouk.mchost.com [tutorials > photoshop]
- http://www.thewebmachine.com [photoshop > interfaces]
- http://www.voidix.com [tutorials > photoshop]

try some of these tutorials and experiment for you to find your own style

BUT whats a fantastic Photoshop skill without any scripting knowledge?

[VooDoo`]

the good tutorials exists only in english, so here some help for german (or other) users

I attach two *.bat files to start photoshop in englisch or german (other people must edit the german for their own language)

copy them to your photoshop directory (and make two aliases on the desktop)

[Eng3L]

little tip: try to design your skin on a paper. Its more easyer after to work on photoshop because you know what you want :). If you have a scanner you can scan your design , its very usefull (check the example i have attach).

[dlinkwit27]

*bookmark* i shoulda read this first! lol!

[eh?one]

this thread should help with the general quality of this forum going downhill. i like i like :D but what happens to ppl who can't draw :(

[Eng3L]

If you can't draw a line on a paper... you can't draw a line on photoshop ;) ...express your imagination.

[kingo'mountain]

adil, youre a very good skinner, but you must remember that you started like we all did, with that bevel and circles, so please, spare this precious web space!!!

[dlinkwit27]

Originally posted by Eng3L
If you can't draw a line on a paper... you can't draw a line on photoshop ;) ...express your imagination.


um, wrong. i can make perfect circles and wonderful cubes in PS and illustrator, but you should see my attempt at drawing one. also, you should see how well i colour shades in PS (gradient) but i can't mix paint to make a colour to save my soul. :D

[eh?one]

Originally posted by dlinkwit27
um, wrong. i can make perfect circles and wonderful cubes in PS and illustrator, but you should see my attempt at drawing one. also, you should see how well i colour shades in PS (gradient) but i can't mix paint to make a colour to save my soul. :D that's exactly how i am :D i couldn't draw a square if my life depended on it :p

[Adil]

Originally posted by kingo'mountain
you must remember that you started like we all did, with that bevel and circles, so please, spare this precious web space!!!

No,I wasnt as bad as you when I started otherwise I would have given up.
This forum is going down because of idiots like you.

I'm out of here.

[razmansix]

jeez Adil get laid or something!

Why not just ooze on with your skinning knowledge instead.

Here's more general stuff..

We all work different ways - I can't even draw stick figures freehand! so I obviously never sketch first. If you're like me, circle and square selections are your best friends.

To make it easier making interresting shapes and controlling them afterwards you got to learn the basics first.

I use PS - and with that comes the wonderfull marquee/selection tool and the pen tool. Learn how to use and control them and you're shaping ability will improve dramatically.

Learn how to add/subtract, intersect and transform selections, how to work with multiple selections etc. Combine some of the predefined shapes with your own if you want - the possibilities are endless. You can even save them for later use. Combine your selections with quickmask blurring and levels adjustment for smoothing out shapes.

Tutorials are allways about ending up with a certain effect. It's all good - do tutorials if you want (heck you SHOULD do tutorials - you can only benefit from them) but don't stop when you've reached from point a to point b - lay your own path. When you've done a gazillion tutorials you would probably have touched every corner of your graphics program. By then you'll have a pretty good idea how to combine what you've learned to put your personal touch into your design.

Some of the above is not very self explanatory I know! it's general. If you want to make an interesting skin design you got to know (and enjoy!) your graphics program. You should never base your designs on the first and best tutorial you've just learned.

Preferably skin all components! - make the skin complete! This means alot of layers that have to be organized, seperate as much as possible in layers and layersets so you can change/tweak or move areas if needed.

[thepyr0x]

oh my, adil you crack me up
kingo don't let him get to ya....apparantly inferring that he sucked at one point is insulting so he felt the need to defend himself

[dlinkwit27]

also, layer effects (multiply, diference, ect.) are very handy :cool:

[kingo'mountain]

note to everybody (and especially adil):

nobody is born with the ability to skin stuff like razmansix, peter and some others, this ability is learnt.... by sitting and messing around.... so mess around, get to know what most of the effects, filters and other cool stuff do, and then create your skin

REMEMBER: practice makes perfect!!!

[Eng3L]

razmansix, rpeterclark, raydream, adil...., These persons have don't learn their skills on tutorials (maybe just a part).If you check that, these are most popular skinners. And im curious to know their profession. If you have a proffesion its because you like to do it. Which are your profession? ...just for the fun.

Some of skinners are amateur and it make skins just for the fun... like me. I have learn my skills just with tutorials and a LOT of expirement. exemple: wallpapers, webdesign or a simple practice for the fun.

Check my attachment (engel skin copy), this is an expirement i have made maybe 3-4 months ago. And see whats i can do 2d. Its a message for all amateur skinners... All of you can make a cool skin like my spacewing and another skins IF YOU REALLY WANT IT. Dont be afraid to experiment your skills with random projects, the result will be just positive. have an eye on projects of other skinners ... you can found a lot of tips just like that.

if you cant see the limit... make like me. Go to a multi-media shcool and pass from amateur designer to a proffesional designer :)

you dont have enough imagination? its impossible. Sky is the limit! Imagination does not have any limits ...remember that :)

[Vibestar]

When U start a skin you can also look to great skins to come up with ideas and how to place your pieces together. Dont copy anything but just look how people and especially you (the skinner) like it. This way you can make great skins.

One tip of my is to start your skin in a vector programm like flash. It is easier to make a shape you want. And when the shape is there you can edit it in PS.

Vibe*

[dlinkwit27]

Originally posted by kingo'mountain
REMEMBER: practice makes perfect!!!

if practice makes perfect, and no one is perfect, why practice?

and now, back to your regularly scheduled thread! :D :p

[The Dre]

Originally posted by dlinkwit27
if practice makes perfect, and no one is perfect, why practice?

is that from Billie Joe Armstrong - Green Day?

[hammerhead]

This is what I recommend for people who are just starting graphics:-

Learn how to use the tools, then experiment with them. Eventually you'll come out with a pretty nice skin, although it may take a while.

Never give up, even if someone says all your attempts are crap. You'll get good eventually.

Mentally draw out a skin plan before making it. You may just get an idea for a good shape just like that, or you may need to be inspired.

Well, thats my list.
-hh

[kingo'mountain]

Originally posted by dlinkwit27
and now, back to your regularly scheduled thread! :D :p

uuuugh, whats the hint? im an accesive threading person?

[binary hero]

Originally posted by Adil
okay everyone, I'm starting this thread to share some of my knowledge and help the newbies in their skinning attempt.
If you don't agree with anything on this page, don't bother posting cause this is a page I made for helping people not to debate.

First thing I would love people to understand that a skin is not made by photoshop but by the designer, so please stop using those photoshop bevels and other effects randomly on a boring shape like a circle/oval...
try to draw something instead of using the circles tool, and before you draw, you need to have the image of the skin in your mind, keep thinking of the final skin all the time. That way you'll fix more flaws while you're still drawing it.

Second thing, don't think too abstract. There are rules you need to follow to make a good skin:
The beginning of your skin design must be as realistic as possible, keep the extra fancy stuff for the end.
For example, start designing something with a display, good buttons, volume knob/slider... all the stuff that a true stereo has... it's only after you have all those elements that you should start implementing extras, like drawers and thinger for example.

Third and last thing for now is the way you work with photoshop, I personally always start with a blank 500x500 pixels image, then I create the first layer, draw the basic shape in black and then if the shape is right I start planing the lcd, buttons and the rest. If the shape is not right, remove it immediately and start from scratch... a bad shape is hard to fix after you started organizing stuff on it.

oh a little post note for many skinning noobs here: making something that you like is not a pretext for doing something ugly and then post it as if it was the new terminator movie with a huge title and slogan.
when you're a noob you're skinning to improve your skills not to compete with the best skins so having that fake advertising to promote your skin or making a top cool logo wont get you any further as long as your skin doesn't deserve it.

I hope this little message will help some of you cause to be honest, the new skinning attempts I've seen here these last weeks are very disappointing and all the good skinners are gone tired of the attitude of some people here.
I'm also not gonna be here as often as I used to be.

Thanks for reading and good luck.

- Adil
care if I, a hardened reviewer reply to some of this?

Basically, what i look for is something that looks good, and works well. Feel free to hide away your cbuttons in a drawer if you want, but don't expect for your functionality score to be high, ultimatley winamp is a mdeia player, not a piece of eye candy. However, i strongly disagree with the "keep it realistic" bit. I have said it many times before, but skins don't have to look like portable mp3 players to be good and get high scores. my favourite winamp2 skin at the moment is this one (http://classic.winamp.com/skins/detail.jhtml;$sessionid$DSRW5OTXZCHDVTN241HBCYY?componentId=123779). I like this skin because of the fantastic animations. It's the details that make the skin, not the colour, shape or style.

and as atmo said - fuck making good skins. make a skin that you like, if you like it then somebody else will, and that's what skinning is all about, not "oooh, i got 35 downloads!". Don't be a trendwhore, skin for yourself above anything or anyone else.

[dlinkwit27]

Originally posted by dlinkwit27
if practice makes perfect, and no one is perfect, why practice?


idk who siad it, i got it off a "fun quotes" forward. Sometimes spam can be fun! lol.

[Digitalhigh]

I'm with Binary. The "ultra-futuristic" MP3 player look has been done, re-done, and finally done-in. The only change anymore is that they seem to get curvier. Trying to make a replica of sony's newest high-priced toy is fun and all, but there's a lot of things in the real world that are totally usless on a computer, like a headphone jack, speakers, or number-keys.

I'd also like to re-iterate the point that while Tut's are helpful, they're only one person's knowledge (usually) and may only show you one way of doing something. Learn by examples too. Check out the MAKI cheats thread. Read STD.mi. There's a whole wealth of knowledge right in front of you. STD.mi especially. It's one of the windows that's always open when I'm scripting.

[dlinkwit27]

Originally posted by Digitalhigh
I'm with Binary. The "ultra-futuristic" MP3 player look has been done, re-done, and finally done-in. The only change anymore is that they seem to get curvier. Trying to make a replica of sony's newest high-priced toy is fun and all, but there's a lot of things in the real world that are totally usless on a computer, like a headphone jack, speakers, or number-keys.


yea whats with you skinners trying to make realalistic skins? that is so dumb. i mean, jsut make duel colour boxes for skins. thats all we need. and make sure that u only have the necessaryu things on there. jsut two colours, one for the BG and one for the buttons, and text. Im also sick of thise grpahic heavy skins. all this efoft to make things look "good" and such is so dumb.
























:rolleyes: SARCASIM!

[Digitalhigh]

Man, if you're gonna make fun of me, at least spell it right.

Shit.

:D

[dlinkwit27]

speeling is over rated. :D

[neversun]

Okay, here's my take on all this.

Imagination
Some people have it, some people dont, those with imagination can make skin after skin, each and every one being unique.
however those who do not, largly depend on learning from tutorials, friends, and any other sources possible.

the result of this is that it's broken into 2 teers, The imaginative skinners, who often make a tutorial or three,. and the Novices, whome learn from the tutorials.

the problem isnt the tutorials, the problem is the attitude, if one learns a sweet bevel on a site then creates a random shape, applying this bevel to it and adding a round window, this isnt very imaginative, as there will be up to 20 other people doesnt the same thing, the imagination in this case is the shape., however, we then contemplate the skinners mind, in creating something that they like, they often refrence off a favourite skin, though this is fine, it reduces how much creativity youve applied to the skin..

it's much less personal when the shape is someone elses, and the graphics are common bevels.

Limitation
It's said that we are limited only by our imagination thus new skinners with little knowledge in graphics programs will be limited by their own abilities as their skin will not make it from mind to canvas without suffering changes.
this however can be cured, simply sit in your favourite graphics programs, no making a skin in particular, just experimenting with layers, colours and effects, this expands your ability, and in doing so, improves your imagination.

Syndromes
I will now talk of a taboo subject.. Skinners syndrome.
this rears its head in many forms, most of which i will cover here, The first is tutorial's syndrom, This is where an aspiring skinner learns how to do some nice looking styles, then opens adobe, creates an oval, then applies this style to the oval, then some buttons (often glass orbs, since glass orb buttons are so common), then another shape for the screen..
this however, doesnt make a skin, what makes a skin is its ability to entrap the user, have them playing with the buttons, options, menus and such, the more interesting the skin, the better it will do.
Next is Ego syndrome, Many skinners eventually suffer from this when they become popular, Adil and Neko(raydream) in particular, and so you know, Raydreams sat behind me working on sakura he doesnt mind me saying he got egotystical because he agrees that he did.
however, he's left for a long, if not permanent duration in the hopes of ending it, but the general problem remains, and the longer it stays, the worse it gets, there are some who show a skin, then flame any suggestions to its appearance, as if they posted it simply to get oo's and ahh's, shamefully, it doesnt work like that.
Next up is Ripper syndrome, these few are often tallentless, and feel the need to scribe their name on other peoples work, these select few honestly do not deserve anyones sympathy.

The cure?
No not just a 90's band, there is a cure to the above problems, and i will try my best to explain them here.

Curing ego's : Contrary topopular beleif, a good flaming will not "Knock him down a step", all this would do is make the person in question flame back. the only possible way to cure and ego is to talk one on one with them, and explain that they are being bigheaded, but be nice about it, dont walk in their and say "bigheaded fool, stop messin", explain that they are being a little high and mighty, and that they should be more down to earth. usually this alone will work, if not, then theres always your friendly ignore button.

Curing tutorial humps.
As explained earlier, the only real way to remove the tutorial look of your skins, is to take what you've learned and apply your own personal twist, dont be afraid to experiment, and dont let others opinions put you down, most of the time Even when harsh, their comments will give you an indication of whats wrong, instead of hitting out, take them into consideration and things will improve.

if youve read all of that, im sorry for making you fall asleep.

[binary hero]

neversun: "word" ("werd"?)

i like you. you can stay ;).

[0zz]

Originally posted by neversun

The cure?
No not just a 90's band, there is a cure to the above problems, and i will try my best to explain them here.

Curing ego's : Contrary topopular beleif, a good flaming will not "Knock him down a step", all this would do is make the person in question flame back. the only possible way to cure and ego is to talk one on one with them, and explain that they are being bigheaded, but be nice about it, dont walk in their and say "bigheaded fool, stop messin", explain that they are being a little high and mighty, and that they should be more down to earth. usually this alone will work, if not, then theres always your friendly ignore button.



amen! i don't agree that neko is egotistical though. but some people here really have big problems with their bloaty heads. they're all in my ignore list now :D that ignore feature is heaven-sent!

[hammerhead]

Originally posted by binary hero
neversun: "word" ("werd"?)

i like you. you can stay ;).

agreed

[binary hero]

Originally posted by 0zz
i don't agree that neko is egotistical though.
AHAHAHA! as much as i love the sonofabitch, his ego is just a little to large for his boots. (neko - if you are reading this, i mean no offense...i'm sorry, but it's true).

[raydream]

Originally posted by binary hero
AHAHAHA! as much as i love the sonofabitch, his ego is just a little to large for his boots. (neko - if you are reading this, i mean no offense...i'm sorry, but it's true).

yus :)

[hammerhead]

Are you going to stay??

[carlosp]

Ok, (i allways beginn with that):igor:

I am 16 years old and i begane to skining 2 years ago. FIRST I MADE SKINS FOR WA2 but since 6 month i am skinning for wa3. I know that most of the top skins are made by pro(profisional) grafik designer but it is not a reason to think if you are not pro designer you are not able to make good skins.

The first step!

I think the best think for the new skinners is to make first only dump skins to understand the rules and how it goes. It is very importatnt. You don´t have to learn maki but you must understand the way that xml goes.

The second step!

When you understand that you must beginn to try to make skin from gadgets like handys (mobile telefon) and PDA´s. I made a nokia skin. It will take you to higher level and please release only that skins you made in the second step.


The third step!

Well i reached the third step a while ago. Now i can do skins from my imagination. I learnd to use ps that way like pro designer it deos (not the 100% same way but very close to that). IF you are good engough to do those skin you can try learn maki becuase only that skins which you made in third level are worth to be coded. Now try to beginn with first skin if you are newbie.


The End

You can see my first skin in the third level in the next weeks. It is about spiderman.

Please excuse my english :igor: :D


:D

[xlSwampFoxlx]

One thing that i dont remember anyone metioning that i feel is one of the most important things is UNITY. Carry the same theme or style throughout the entire skin. When you start placing random buttons and to many colors it detracts from the entire. Linking elements from mode to mode is also good for unifying the skin as a whole.

[binary hero]

Originally posted by raydream
yus :)
:)

i doubt he will be staying. prolly just a fleeting visit whilst oxygen si b0rked.

xlswampfox - good point. try to create some sort of 'normal' throughout your skins - have all the appbuttons (min/max/close) in the same order and the same place. try to keep shapes the same too (where possible), it just helps to add consistency, which the human eye likes (therefore higher aesthitic rating)

[immortal]

Call me stupid but I just read the whole thread in 1 go :S took a while but it was very usful.

just one tip to noobies, DO NOT STOP USING YOUR GFX PROG! I quit so many times, but I always go back, when you feel good with the right prog for you (being any, not PS just cause Adil and Neko use it, and not PSP just cause Atmo uses it) 1 YOU feel good with, then just mess with stuff, if you fuck the program up you can always re-install. theres nothing wrong with clicking ramdon buttons aslong as you remember which does what.

my tupence (sp?) worth :)

[eh?one]

wow, and i thought this would be a thread dedicated to newbie-bashing :p i never expected anything useful to come from it :D

[kingo'mountain]

written by darko - ninja on another thread:
Personally I think the best advice for anybody making their first skin is to make it for themselves. Don't listen to anyone and only ask questions if you need help creating something that you have in mind but can't do it on your own.

If you try to skin for other people and take in everyone's suggestions then you'll end up going no where with your skin cause you'll get in over your head.

That's been my experience at least. You don't even have to release your first skin, but use it as a learning experience, then with your second one you can design something that you think a lot of people might enjoy.


eh!!!!!! the last segment is good, the first two were alread said, so forgive me

[Digitalhigh]

QUOTE]...ultimatley winamp is a mdeia player, not a piece of eye candy. However, i strongly disagree with the "keep it realistic" bit. I have said it many times before, but skins don't have to look like portable mp3 players to be good and get high scores..[/QUOTE]

i agree with binaryhero and dighitalhigh. If i see another media player with "stick mode"; pastel colorthemes that go ROYGBV; and either a custom vis or speakers, ill puke. it seems like everybody's so concerned with beating MMD3 that nobody realizes that trying to imitate it has already become a complete cliche. Read the second quote in my siggy, ithink it sez what i'm trying to say.

[kingo'mountain]

would you slap a picture of a babe, add some symbols.. and call it a skin?

[carlosp]

No, i saw some skins like you said kingo'mountain . I mean what is a mp3 player with out skins? The skins makes a mp3 player attractive. If you don´t wanna a mp3 player with skins use coolplayer(coolplayer.sourceforge.net). It is only a mp3 player and nothing more. It is only some kb big. If you are a fucking homo(you are not a fucking homo ;)) use Windows Media Player (just a joke!!!! :p )

[dlinkwit27]

the site says it will have freeform skins tho....:weird:

not only that, but the wincustomzie site alone has 150+ skins for it, so yea....what do u mean if u don't want sknis DL that?

[Adil]

I know it's not the topic but...

I'm looking for a good, fast coder.
if you want to code winamp3 and make cash, contact me.

either email me or message me.
my contact info is on my website (adildesign.com)

thanks for reading.

ps: contact me asap

[kingo'mountain]

adil........ *sigh*

[Adil]

thanks for mailing me guys. much appreciated. :)

(got the coders I need for now, thanks again)

[binary hero]

why do you need a new coder adil? are you eating them (bizzy d, will)..?

[Adil]

Originally posted by binary hero
why do you need a new coder adil? are you eating them (bizzy d, will)..?

who doesnt like tasty coders? :)

[StriplingRz]

good one Adil. :p

I liked that one. :up: