For all the anti-Americans!

[RyuRyu]

Just for the record I wanted to clarify all the misunderstandments that are going on right now due to selfish actions taken by the US and UK. I live and work in the middle of nowhere Ohio, USA, and have found it surprising to see that everyone around me is so Pro-War. I once blurted out anti-war sentiment and was bombarded with all the negative remarks, debates, yelling, and i had to handle a large crowd all on my own.... it was terribly scary.

Why is it that most americans that don't live in Major east or west coast cities tend to be liberal, while the main country is so pro-war? IT is because life outside from the coastline is terribly slow and boring, eveyone west of NJ is automatically categorised as hillbillys (generalising) and they have nothing else to cherish but their nationalistic pride, pride to be an american. Pride to know that you are the strongest.

Yet they failed to realize important aspects of life. Your neighbors, people outside of your state, country, continent. The people that have ambition just like them, wanting to live their lives in peace. These anti-war americans, GAURANTEED have never stepped outside of the US, much else their own state, thereby cocooned themselves in a shell they no nothing of outside. It's sad, very sad, how people don't realize that everyone other themselves have the same ambtion and needs. And just like racism, our entire country has now been generalized as being self-ish jerks. But you have to realise that it's not their faults, it's how they were raised.

Most other countries, have neighboring states, ally and enemy. Most other countries have had numerous wars within their territory for decades and centuries. Most other citizens of the world can hop on a train and be in a totally different culture in a matter of hours. America is secluded, isolated, both physically and mentally.... and this is nothing you or I can change.

I can go on for hours, so i'll stop here. I just people to know that people whether americans or not fail a lot of times to put themselves into other people's shoe.

And just because I currently live in ohio doesn't mean i haven't seen the world. I've been to japan every summer for 13 yrs in a row. Italy, France, England, Spain, Netherlands.... etc.

i hope i wasn't pointless?;)

[pixiefied]

i infact enjoy being secluded and isolated.

[ertmann|CPH]

this is what i don't get

I've met a few exceptions in here, but the general public of America doesn't have a clue about most of the world, let alone the middle east.

I've vistited the middle east a couple of times, and from that i've learned, that a western style democracy simply wouldnt work in most countries in the middle east.

Don't get me wrong, i'm a firm beliver of the right to free speach, and the right to free elections. But name one muslim nation that so far have done this succesfully - Yes there are some few exceptions, for example Turkey and Bosnia, but those societies are secular to an extend that allmost resembles the state of most western countries.

However, i'm not saying it isn't possible, just that it is a long process that can't be imposed by someone from the outside. And I think we were seeing some exciting steps around the middle east before this war, like the last election in Iran, the gradual introduction of press freedoms in some of the emiralities of the persian gulf.... those are substainable developments because they come from the inside - if a democracy in Iraq, the way i understand the US too impose it, works - i'll be realy surprised.

And this is what i think most americans don't get, they are so wound up in the american way of life, that they think this is the only way people should and can live their lives.... and we'll - it's not.

You've 'liberated' the country, and now what do you want to do with it? let's say a free election is held, and the winner is a Shi'a hardliner, who publicly state that the US is the big Satan, and introduces hardline Sharia law - do you believe for one second that the US would accept it?

What i'm trying to say is that, you DO need to know about the geography, sociology and political scene of the middle east in order to be credible in your arguments for a war, and most in here, and around america simply isn't - if you want to be isolianist - fine. But then you can't go around banging war drums for the rest of the world.

[Fickle]

Sorry! I live in NJ, and I've lived with people considered Hicks in NJ. I've met lot's of people from everywhere. I've never been out of America, yes, but mainly because I have NO MONEY.
That's right. I don't have a jet parked outside or the money for a passport, let alone air flight to the Middle East. I'd love to go to Europe, but I'm broke.
I've never seriously called anybody a hick, so that stement is altogether bullshit. I've met about three people in my life who called anyone else a hick and ment it as an insult. Actually, I've herd more "I'm a hick, I guess." from people who lived on a farm in NJ.
You are automattically judging those who live on the coast. So does that make you better because you live in a land-locked state? Does that make you more profound? More educated?
You're right. We are spoiled over here. We have two neighbors. Mexico, which is like the US without the control, and Canada, which some consider to be USA jr. I don't know what it is, never been there, nor do I know anybody who can tell me more than "Thier drinking age is 18! W00t!"
So sure, we're spoiled. A good majority of us live in homes and don't need to eat each other for survival. We have decent education and a kick-ass military.
We're the Jocks of the world. We can beat people up. Lots of people hate us because of jealousy or because we get what we want. Oh well.

We're isolationists, and yet we try to help the world. We're isolationists and yet many major conflicts around the world we're involved in. So what the hell are you tlking about? This seems like doublespeak. Please explain how we're isolationists and yet we have our hands in too many pots.

Most of Iraq is happy toward the US. I doubt they'll elect another Saddam.

[bigbollogs]

Most Americans think that the world is jealous of it. While some in America are rich, it is also a country of great economic disparity. There are also other rich, western countries that do not come with the political bagage - e.g. Canada, Austrailia, Scandanavia, etc... I think it makes Americans feel better to think that the hatred felt against their country is caused by jealousy. But I'm afraid its rarely the real reason.

[RyuRyu]

Lacking culture influences so much that it is even hard to decide where to start from. This country is young, very young, and people that set out here centuries ago had 2 goals to accomplish. Freedom of religion, and becoming rich ie. American Dream.

The latter resulted in the extreme powerful to set up the foundation for the coming years, setting everything (economy, business, school, politics, law ) to orient around the process of making money. Hence every international action this country takes, is some how revolving around money, their personal gain rather than the great majority's gain.

The country also controls it's own media. Such a HUGE powerful country and all you have is 1 or 2 stations competing against one another spitting out the same thing. People here fail to see that there is much more than what meets the idea, and never doubts its own media. THe mdeia is set up to not necessarily feed the people the truth, but what the people want to see, hence ratings go up.

The reason why everyone hates us is not out of jealousy, but because we do whatever we want to, whenever we want to. We also do whatever we want to not taking into consideration how the neighboring states maybe affected by these actions. The US is selfish, that's one of it's key reasons for people hating us,and terrorising us. And i guess the people of america do have to take responsibility for voting for the representative leaders.

[RyuRyu]

meets the eye

[ertmann|CPH]

yeah, i for one are not certainly not jealous or envious, the US are about the last place on earth i would want to live...

Mainly because i dislikes a society that puts money before the individual, have maniacs running around with weapons (and consequently the highest murder rate of the industrialized world), uses the death penalty for something that would give 7-8 years of prison where i come from, and have a democracy that's all but a joke.

I know and recognize the flaws of my country, you should learn to do that too.

Besides, if september 11 proved anything, it was that the United States can not isolate itself.... Unfortuantly the US administration doesn't recognize that you can not fight terrorism, the only answer is to remove what's causing it.

/EDIT hmmmm i just realized, that september 11 probably would have never happened if the US had been Isolanistic, i'm gonna have to make some sense of that..... anyway, maybe it would be for the better if the US shuts itself out from the rest of the world then.

[Bender__19]

Mainly because i dislikes a society that puts money before the individual, have maniacs running around with weapons (and consequently the highest murder rate of the industrialized world), uses the death penalty for something that would give 7-8 years of prison where i come from, and have a democracy that's all but a joke.

the only way to get the death penalty is to commit murder, and it usually means that it was a really sick murder(like someone who tourtered the person to death or killed because it was fun for them). I'd like to know of a nation anywhere where doing something like this would get you 7-8 years.

and I hate to break it to you, but our democracy is the oldest continusly functioning government in the world(not the oldest country, just the oldest current government). and no matter what you think happens, it boils down to the people electing someone to represent them. the government can't say who gets to represent the people, only the people can say who represts us.

and It dosen't matter where you live in the world, if you want to get a gun, you can get a gun.

and no matter what you might think of the US, think about what the alternative would have been. if the US had lost the cold war, do you even think that you would be allowed to complain about the government? much less have access to a computer? or a car? cause there is no way in hell that europe would have withstood the USSR if the US pulled all of it's troops.
The US is a far more benovelent superpower than the USSR ever was.

edit:I had to fix some typos and one really big f***up.

[ertmann|CPH]

the only way to get the death penalty is to commit murder, and it usually means that it was a really sick murder(like someone who tourtered the person to death or killed because it was fun for them). I'd like to know of a nation anywhere where doing something like this would get you 7-8 years.


Im not playing smart ass here, and i might be wrong - but from what i have learned, in amongst others, my sociology classes, it's possible to receive the death penalty for a single murder, in some states fx. Texas

Murder usualy gives 10 years in Denmark, and you get released after 7-8. Longest penalty you can receive is lifetime, which gets you about 12 years before you are released. As far as i remember we had two cases where someone was sentenced real lifetime, one was a quadruble police homocide (he is about to get released after 20 years), and another one where a man murdered a whole family and chopped them into to pieces.

I like it this way, and it works....look at the crime rates.


and I hate to break it to you, but our democracy is the oldest continusly functioning government in the world(not the oldest country, just the oldest current government). and no matter what you think happens, it boils down to the people electing someone to represent them. the government can't say who gets to represent the people, only the people can say who represts us.


I was refering to the the last presidential elections, the fact that if you win a state you win all the mandates from it (which i think is very unfair), the corporate sponsorships of campaigns, and the fact that you only have two parties that count for anything...

I realy ment to say, that i personally think it's a joke - i thought the post was pretty obviously my own view on things.


and It dosen't matter where you live in the world, if you want to get a gun, you can get a gun.


No denying in that, but ill bet you a million dollars, that it's a hell of alot easier to get one in the US than it is in Denmark.
I have personally never seen a firearm in this country - except the ones the Queens honerable guard carries. The police officers can't carry guns in a way so that you can see it. And personally i have absolutely no clue where to get one.

And frankly i still don't get this arguement after all this time, find some murder statistics comparing Europe to the US, and open your eyes.


and no matter what you might think of the US, think about what the alternative would have been. if the US had lost the cold war, do you even think that you would be allowed to complain about the government? much less have access to a computer? or a car? cause there is no way in hell that europe would have withstood the USSR if the US pulled all of it's troops.
The US is a far more benovelent superpower than the USSR ever was.


Well there's alot of if's and but's in this, it depends on what stage you mean, you have to remember that France and the UK had nuclear weapons.

But i'm not naive either, and i'm not denying that NATO and the Marshall plan have been highly beneficial to Europe. But the situation is different after 1991. And i don't like one bit that some cowboy from Texas with the mental capacity of a goldfish is making the world around me a lot less safe place to be.

/EDIT
homocide pr 100.000 population

guns allowed
US: 6,8
SA: 21,2

not allowed
DK: 0,87
NZ: 3,05
UK: 1,22

And then , before you mention it, yes. Switzerland is have about the highest percentage of gun ownership in the world, and one of the lowest homicide rate. However that can be explained, if you want me to!?


And please remeber, that i'm writing this just as a personal explantion of why i don't like your contry, and don't want to live there.

[RyuRyu]

okay, I'm not trying to promote hatred towards America. I am trying to promote understanding..... maybe i came off being very anti-american, but how i see it, the people cannot be the ones at total blames. People in general are very simple and easy to influence in termas of their emotions and understandment of thru media and their surrounding influence. You take for example a figure such as Britney Spears. She's not that pretty, nice body, but definitely not HOT! Yet you see her in so many videos, ads, shoots, promoting her as being the queen of hot... sooner or later you really start believing it... same thing with politcs, you tell them Iraq is the one responsible for 9/11, you tell them they are after us, they have weapons of mass destruction, WMD WMD WMD WMD....... 'hey let's get them before they get us!' is what happens. So you really can't hate the entire America, but only dislike the ones puppetiering the country.

The people are not the ones to hate.

the people are not the ones to hate.

PEACE

[RyuRyu]

you know but it is true, the only people i met here in ohio that are anti-war have actually traveled. Sure it's a luxury (typo?) but it's definitely worth saving up for.

hey, what about the peace corp, international internships, jobs. theres plenty of ways to get a deal, you just have to strive for it.

I went to school in central PA. Very secluded snobby university. My friends and i called it a bubble, you have no idea of current affairs, whats going outside because there is no word of mouth because there is nothing around you. Eventually this university becomes your only reality. America is Humongous, and it's only heavily populated in those clusters of metro area. you step outside and theres 1000 (1650 kilos) of nothing, just pockets of towns. Anyway back to the story..... your reality, the only thing that matters. Then you realise there is something outside, 9/11, something Evil (possibly another AXIS OF EVIL??!!), that hates you and all you have is the notion to protect your hazy little bubble. And you have no idea what these people do because you never saw anybody outside you town. For all that you know they could be parading and building an evil army of arabic demons, ready to hunt and rape the towns people....!

it's a reality shock that america doesn't know how to handle and cannot comprehend.

I mean, wouldn't your first notion after being attacked be "what the hell, what did i do?",

[fwgx]

>>>> I mean, wouldn't your first notion after being attacked be "what the hell, what did i do?",

Most probably yes. But what that question has become is no longer a question. It is seen as a statement, a fact, of implied truth that people hate you because of your freedoms, your money and your free speach etc. This just simply isn't the case.

We're isolationists, and yet we try to help the world. We're isolationists and yet many major conflicts around the world we're involved in. So what the hell are you tlking about? This seems like doublespeak. Please explain how we're isolationists and yet we have our hands in too many pots.
American people are isolationalists, they have a very vague understanding of anything outside the US. The American foreign policy for the past decade has been anything but isolationalist, with invasions and killings all over the world pretty much every year for over a hundred years. The advantage of this is obvious if your ther person in power, 'keep them isolationalist then we can feed them bullsit 'facts' and they'll support us'.

"So there, we have figured out, go back to bed America, your government has figured out how it all transpired. Go back to bed America, you government is in control again. Here, here's American Gladiators. Watch this, shut up! Go back to bed America, here's American Gladiators. Here's 56 channels of it. Watch these pituitary retards bang their fuckin skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom. Here you go America, you are free, to do as we tell you, you are free, to do as we tell you."

"Oh good. Honey, I heard on the news that they've figured out that the gun, what happened is, is that there was an echo and Kennedy was, er, asking Jackie what it was, and that that's why his head flew u... Honey what time's Gladiators on? Are we missing it? I'm so glad we're free, Honey."

[ertmann|CPH]

Ryu, I know, i know - i just can't help it - americans are are realy getting on my nerves right now, but i do practice what i preach. If i met an American tommorow, i would be open minded.... except if it was Bush or Rumsfeld - in which case i would have a very hard time controling myself.....

Actually i feel sorry for the ones who voted for him, it's just sad.

[bigbollogs]

I happen to be American, but my friends tend to be educated and well-travelled. They're all anti-war and anti-bush. I find that Americans that see only one perspective (i.e. never travel, follow only one news source) tend to be pro-war and pro-bush. By the way, remember that Bush did not win the Presidential election - Gore did. The US supreme court stopped the voting before all ballots had been counted.

[RyuRyu]

i think the countings would have shown that bush won.... but considering he lost 35% favor in less than a few months shows he would have lost if the elections were a month later.

it didn't matter, both of them are tools. I wish McCain would have won!

[RyuRyu]

By the way, why wasn't this war / battle / fight not called

operation iraqi liberation? instead of freedom>

[Fickle]

Originally posted by bigbollogs
I happen to be American, but my friends tend to be educated and well-travelled. They're all anti-war and anti-bush. I find that Americans that see only one perspective (i.e. never travel, follow only one news source) tend to be pro-war and pro-bush. By the way, remember that Bush did not win the Presidential election - Gore did. The US supreme court stopped the voting before all ballots had been counted.


Weird. I know many people who have travled abroad and still believe in the war. So I disagree. My grandparents are even for the war, and they're pretty liberal politically. I guess it's because my Grandfather fought for America in the Korean War and my Grandmother was in a Concentration Camp.

With the voting thing--no who's only paying attention to one source? Gore didn't win, but if you want to go by majority, niether did Clinton. Clintons entire election was based on Perot taking away the rich, crazy guy vote, which is one Republicans severely depend on. So who rigged the election? Do you really think that Clinton wanted Bush in? Or do you really think that Bush's brother could pass through Federal guards and fuck with the votes? He must have used his magic wand :rolleyes:

To liberate is to give freedom.

Just because you're educated or feel you're more educated than others doesn't mean that you can't be blinded. Just because you've traveled abroad doesn't mean your automattically smarter than someone else.

American Gladiators hasn't been on the air, much less popular in like 15 years. Please get a clue before you take a stab at a place you have no idea about and have never visited. Phily, you're still invited to my house. Free room, Free board, you just stay here for a week and tell me how Violent and faschist it is.

and I hate to break it to you, but our democracy is the oldest continusly functioning government in the world(not the oldest country, just the oldest current government).

I dunno, the monarchy has been around for quite awhile.

[BMWboy]

I dunno, the monarchy has been around for quite awhile.

what I think he meant is that the government of every other country has changed since 1776

[brownpaper]

and no matter what you think happens, it boils down to the people electing someone to represent them. the government can't say who gets to represent the people, only the people can say who represts us.

in the 2000 election, the government did tell who represent us. the supreme court basically decided who would become president of the united states. the popular vote was overshadowed by the electoral college. the founding fathers of the united states set up the electoral college (just in case) to "correct" the mistake of the people. elites such as George Washington, Alexander Hamilton, and other Federalist did not believe in the judgement of the people (hence the Federalist philosophy). if they did not believe in the people, why would they choose to have the presidential election decided by an electoral college instead of a popular vote? voters are actually voting for electors (not the president) who make the decision to vote for the voters in the electoral college. true, they usually vote for the president the people vote for but they are not bound by the people's decision. there is actually a middleman that between the voter and the outcome of the presidential vote.

And i don't like one bit that some cowboy from Texas with the mental capacity of a goldfish is making the world around me a lot less safe place to be.

well i'm not so sure that he's actually running the government. to me, it seems like he's controlled by some lobbying interest groups in washington, DC. :p although many people may instantly write him off as an idiot (he got into a prestigous university with mediocre grades and an SAT score that would barely get him into a clown college), i still respect him as my president. i don't always see eye to eye on everything he says (sometimes he is not as articulate as he should be (i.e. saying "nucular" instead of nuclear)), however he is the leader of my country and i just hope he does what's best for my country and more importantly, the world. if you don't trust bush, how many politicians are there in the world that you can geniunely, truly trust? i do not think many people would trust their own politicians in any country, even at the local level.

[Fickle]

The electorial college were supposed to be voted on by the people, and they would elect the president. It wasn't lack of faith of the people, it was the impossibility of having a fair and un"adjustable" way to have all the colonists vote on a president when they were spread out along the East Coast. What were they going to do, have them all stay in Philly for a week to vote? This is America, Not Rome.

[66666666]

your pathetic. to bad the crowd didnt kill your coward hippe ass. if loooove being a anti american peice of shit coward so much then go live in the mid east and get your stupid white traitor neck slit in the street, and get your shoes and cloths stolen off your corpse. by the ragheads that you love soooo dear. loser

[ertmann|CPH]

WOW, great to hear from someone who knows what he is talking about, couse rubberies and rapes are so common in the middle east, much more of a problem than in the west, you just can't go anywhere if you are white without being killed. And all the hundred thousands tourists that visits israel, Egypt and the Gulf states all get's sent home in a coffein (we just don't hear about it). Infact im extremely luckly to even be alive, after visiting the middle east four times, i'm thanking god for returning me home safely as i write this.

Sorry, i don't know how i could be so blind, can you forgive me? From now on i promise i will hate everyone who doesn't have the same race, religion and pro american believes that i do.

[Fickle]

Originally posted by 66666666
your pathetic. to bad the crowd didnt kill your coward hippe ass. if loooove being a anti american peice of shit coward so much then go live in the mid east and get your stupid white traitor neck slit in the street, and get your shoes and cloths stolen off your corpse. by the ragheads that you love soooo dear. loser

Are you all coked up or what? Me wonders why you aren't bann--oh wait, you are.

[pixiefied]

sounds like theres a GERM infesting the forums again.

[Joel]

Dudes:

This is the Community Center.
That's mean we have something in common.
For example we are Humans!

Let's start acting like ONE

BTW: My first post here :D

[RyuRyu]

woa! that was really scary stuff that guy said.

I love extreme prejudice people that think Americans are naturally white supremisists.

I remember reading those newsweek quote of the week in the beginning of the magazine.... anyway some important politician maybe 4 yrs ago says, all imigrants should be kicked out of America. A famous indian civil rights leader said 'I agree'.

And what's with those people that are like... 'everyone that lives in America should speak 'english'", wasn't this country supposed to be a melting pot? Acutally it's a sald bowl with all the tomatos clustered at the bottom, huge romain leaves everywhere, croutons/onions on top, cheese layered over the surface, and would you like some fresh pepper with that?

By the way, I always wanted to know the facts about the middle east - actually just about Israel. Was it founded by the UN or US?

[RyuRyu]

i think it might have been bucanen. Wasn't he the one with the idea of creating an electric fence running the entire span of the mexican border?

[RyuRyu]

salad bowl. sorry for all the typos, it's late

[Fickle]

Ryu--Hit the EDIT button. What you're doing is post pumping.
Bottom right of your post

[cgfiend]

It's easy to sit in another country and assume how arrogant and evil Americans are. The real truth is most Americans are just average people working to make a living and enjoying freedom. There's a lot of good in this country and its people. The fact that we're a superpower is a testament to how freedom can open the floodgates of progress and human ingenuity. America goes out of its way to help those in need. To sit there and judge our country without living the life of an American, you're being an armchair critic and I refuse to listen to your hype. You can take as many history lessons as you want, it won't paint you a true picture of the everyday American.

[RyuRyu]

i am an official american by my origin, as well as my birth place. I've lived in different areas of America, FL, PA, OH, NJ and there is something missing in the everyday American life..... life itself, but you nor the ordinary people can understand this because to you, everything is normal (how could anything else be different). Ofcourse other people in other countries live in these fashions but after visiting so many countries, living in different regions, living in other countries, I still sense this lack of lust for life in the majority of people I meet here.

I find it quite hard to understand how the majority have the same taste, whether clothes, music, food, fads, movies, celebs, cars. But then again, i guess i have always been considered a rebel by all those around me, differemt, unusual... but that's what my friends came to understand as my cool being.

It's funny how in this country you kids listen to the epitome of trash Hip Hop loud as hell while the regular A.Americans look at them as White Chocolate. And no matter how much you adore and try to emulate rapping, deep inside you feel above 'them'. yet 'them' are just banking off of you by feeding the consumers the biggest pile of 'crap'. The real hip hop artists were groups like 'Roots' and 'Tribe called quest' where they talked about their everyday lifes, problems, hopes........

Why is it that in this country all girls and boys dress the same. GAP, BANANA, AERO, Abercrombie, J.crew....... they are all the same, just a spin off of one another. Why is it that no one has the sense or nerve to find their own style instead of copying a trend. Why is it that Walmart exists? Why is it that every city is divided by nationalities? Why is it that you have to go to work straight out of college? Why is it that everyone in college studies Business / Finance / Marketing / Management.... when most know that their futures going to suck, Money? Why is it that Fraternities and Sororities exist?

There is a lot of social problems in America, and I've only touched up on the youth's side, I'm sure I could go on forever, but everyone knows it's senseless to try to convince others.

[cgfiend]

You're using words like "all" and "majority". Not all kids dress the same, not all kids listen to hip-hop. That's one helluva generalization. Your perception of American life is pretty small if you think this way.

As for having a lust for life, what country have you been living in? I enjoy my life and there's plenty of excitement and zeal to go around. Family, friends, good times---that's all part of American life.

I'm sorry, but we're not all mindless robots. Americans are individuals. You're lumping everyone into a pile and it just isn't true.

[RyuRyu]

i am not trying to generalize the entire youth, clumps here and there. Ofcourse there is much to enjoy in the good-old-american life style, trust me there is I've enjoyed it and am still enjoying it. Anyway back to the generalization, I was trying to get one clump at a time, I'm not saying the entire US is listening and bumping to rap, sorry miscommunication on my part. But look at MTV, look at how the majority of the youth is so glued to it, so many that you hardly find someone that's listening to something distinctly different. I think that's what is lacking in America. Originality, strong individualism. Ofcourse it's like that in every other country believe me, but it is SOO Strong in America.

And going back to the original topic, America and it's attitude to it's neighbors.... If most US citizens feel they have the right to invade another country so far away because "We are the superpower, we are the strongest'. . . Then shouldn't we be acting like one. A person is person can be strong in more than one physical definition. A person can be kind, gentle, willing, supportive, understanding, a good friend, calm... Aren't those strong characteristics as well?

If you were hanging out with a group of your friends, the big tough guy, the smart one, the ugly, fat, rich, dirt poor, gay, and you the average guy. How would you view the bully that beats up the gay buy because he suspects foul mind play? Strong?

[cgfiend]

The US doesn't go around beating up on people because we can. We do it for a reason. In the case of Iraq, I believe it was something long overdue to get rid of Saddam. It had the benefit of instilling fear in any country that might want to mess with the US--something that needed reiterated after we'd been considered weak for so long. Look at how quick N. Korea turned around. When it comes to the security of the US, we shouldn't pussyfoot around. We now have Homeland Security where there was none. Terrorism is down. It was something that had to be done. Every conflict we've been in had a reason and a purpose. If the US doesn't carry broad shoulders then it can't be respected as a powerful nation. I'm not for bullying, but I am all for keeping other countries in check. I wouldn't call anything we've done recently bullying at all.

[theworm]

You tend to use the word "bullying" rather losely (I'm sure your don't mean too), for a country that has said right from the start "we're going to war, no matter what the rest of the world says" (not a real quote) you give the impression of saying "we're the toughest kid in the playground, don't mess with us" (again paraphasing). Of course your intentions may be in the right place, but your actions are less than desirable.

Ask why your country was attacked (sep 11th)in the first place and what events lead to those reasons?

Many other countries would have supported you if you given more respect to UN and not acted as renegades.

peace

the worm

[cgfiend]

It doesn't matter what America does, there are always going to be people that hate us for some reason or another. Jealousy. Lifestyle differences. Foreign policy. Sometimes I think if there were no America to hate there'd be some other country or some other scapegoat.

It's some of the same things people hate about America that makes it the most prosperous nation in the world.

[fwgx]

>>>>people that hate us for some reason or another. Jealousy. Lifestyle differences

:blah: hahahahaha :blah:

[lin_sook]

Originally posted by cgfiend
It doesn't matter what America does, there are always going to be people that hate us for some reason or another. Jealousy. Lifestyle differences. Foreign policy. Sometimes I think if there were no America to hate there'd be some other country or some other scapegoat.

It's some of the same things people hate about America that makes it the most prosperous nation in the world.

i havent posted in the forum for. i dunno a year? after reading this, i must say... very amusing.

[cgfiend]

Amusing? What's amusing is the fact that you just don't get it. I feel sorry for you people.

(Edit)
I came to this thread to post my ideas. I'm not trying to be arrogant or cocky, just stating my opinion. Instead of a thoughtful reply you laugh. Well, it's just a waste of my time. Have fun laughing amongst yourselves.

[lin_sook]

Originally posted by cgfiend
Amusing? What's amusing is the fact that you just don't get it. I feel sorry for you people.

(Edit)
I came to this thread to post my ideas. I'm not trying to be arrogant or cocky, just stating my opinion. Instead of a thoughtful reply you laugh. Well, it's just a waste of my time. Have fun laughing amongst yourselves.

did i attack your opinion? i merely said it was amusing. if this offeneded you, im sorry. yes you are entitled to your opinion but i am entitled to mine. its amusing to see such a boastful and patriotic attitude you have, yet you say you are not trying to come across as arrogant or cocky. well i'm sorry, you do sound as such.

yes, there are places less fortunate than the united states that could possibly be jealous of your country, but the fact is, your country isnt the greatest, richest yes. greatest, no. why would a person from... say the uk, germany, any wealthy country, be jealous of the united states. yet these are the same places where some of the population do display a disliking to you. nope, it isnt the money, nope it isnt cause u have better food and nope its not the freedom. when you run out of reason for people to hate, you really have to question why do people hate us? i assume theres alot you don't know about what your government has done overseas. i don't blame you for not knowing, your coutnry has done a great job of being passive on these happenings.

it starts out as people disliking america.. but you are a prime example of why they dislike americANS aswell. arrogant, cocky, boastful and unknowing of your own governments doings.

i truly feel sorry for you and the narrow minded views you have of your great country.

[Fickle]

Originally posted by RyuRyu
But look at MTV, look at how the majority of the youth is so glued to it, so many that you hardly find someone that's listening to something distinctly different. I think that's what is lacking in America.

Mtv's ratings have gone down. I for one have watched it twice in the last year. Most of my friends don't watch it.

Originality, strong individualism. Ofcourse it's like that in every other country believe me, but it is SOO Strong in America.

Obviously you've been to the wrong parts of America. I'm going to guess cities and suburbs. May I ask where you lived in New Jersey, as I live there currently and I see none of the bullshit you are generalizing about. You obviously aren't all too perceptive either, as what the media says is popular is NOT ALWAYS POPULAR. Mtv is losing ratings. McDonalds' sale numbers has gone down significantly in the last three years.
Look at all the shit on TV. Thank God it's shit. People are actually going out and doing stuff other than watching TV. Hunting Licence application has gone up in the last few years. Boating licences has gone up. People are going out and finding other things to do. There's none of that in the cities. New York is a concrete jungle. I feel bad for those people. Not only are thier cigarettes like $5.25 a pack but they've got nowhere to go. They're stuck. Everywhere you go is packed with people. ugh. Fuck that noise.

And going back to the original topic, America and it's attitude to it's neighbors.... If most US citizens feel they have the right to invade another country so far away because "We are the superpower, we are the strongest'. . . Then shouldn't we be acting like one. A person is person can be strong in more than one physical definition. A person can be kind, gentle, willing, supportive, understanding, a good friend, calm... Aren't those strong characteristics as well?


I don't like the idea you're pushing. We are acting like a superpower by sticking our nose in everybody's business. We are helping these people. We kicked the asshole out, and now we're helping them to thier feet.


If you were hanging out with a group of your friends, the big tough guy, the smart one, the ugly, fat, rich, dirt poor, gay, and you the average guy. How would you view the bully that beats up the gay buy because he suspects foul mind play? Strong?

Wow. Common Stereotype analogy. I'm not even completely sure what you're saying with this mumbo jumbo, all I detected was that a bully beat up one guy in a group of friends. Well, where I come from, we'd get together and beat the big guy up. How would we feel about him "beating up a gay (g)uy because he suspects foul mind play" Prolly pretty pissed off at the guy, hence we'd plot a little revenge.
We would think nothing of him, but we'd think plenty about him.

[fwgx]

You can't dismiss a point based on a stereotype by pointing out exceptions to that stereotype. That's the inherant nature of them.

[RyuRyu]

all I detected was that a bully beat up one guy in a group of friends. Well, where I come from, we'd get together and beat the big guy up.

DING DING DING! We finally have a winner, just the answer I was looking for Great! thanks a lot. Well, consider America the rich bully, and everyone else the world.

THe group says, "come on now, be calm, we haven't proven that he was being perverse!"

The bully "Fuck that before he thinks anything ill of me, I'm going to beat that fag up good!"

Community tries to stop but the bully get's his way and pummels the gay guy.

The End?

No, everyone now hates the bully, and hence we'd plot a little revenge !

Get it! Everything you see on TV is not the entire truth. There is more than meets the eye. Helping the world? No, helping ourselves, that's the motto of the country buddy, wake up and start reading between the lines.

I feel much better now.....

real peace:blah:

[Fickle]

I'd like to see France, England, and Germany take us on. It'll never happen.

Schoolyard fights are nothing like War, Phily. There's more at stake than shame or teeth. You should know that.

[lin_sook]

Originally posted by Fickle
I'd like to see France, England, and Germany take us on. It'll never happen.

Schoolyard fights are nothing like War, Phily. There's more at stake than shame or teeth. You should know that.

lol if they ever attacked, they must have a very compelling reason, then the whole world would join in..... u basically fucked.

[fwgx]

Originally posted by Fickle
Schoolyard fights are nothing like War, Phily. There's more at stake than shame or teeth. You should know that. I never mentioned schoolyard bullies.

[theworm]

you're probably right about it being as simple as "Jealousy". I've been raised on American pop culture growing up. films, music, tv, everything. It's only recently that I've look at American with doubtful eyes. Around the time sep 11th happened, I kept on saying to other people, "atleast America hasn't tried to take over the world". I feel at bit naive in saying that now.

Maybe it's time to start blaming America's most reliable source of oil - argentina, for this whole mess, if the oil workers there hadn't gone on strike, maybe installing a "stable" government in Iraq wouldn't have happened, or could have happened in a much more democratic process.

Your ideas and throughts are greatly welcomed on this subject, I can see the reason's for an invasion of Iraq and why the removal of Saddam is good for Iraq. What I hope you understand is the same democratic freedom that you all wish for Iraq is the same freedom I would like to see returned to your country - the good ol' US of A.

Am I "Jealous" of America, maybe... yes... well once... a long time ago... come to think of it, not of your politics... or your pornographic desire for guns... or your fear of your next door neighbour... by the way, have you checked what he's up to right now?

peace

worm

[Fickle]

I don't hold water with the Jealous factor. I never really did. I don't believe people are jealous of us, and I really don't care. I do note that lots of people are trying to get in, but they're coming from places like Mexico and Cuba, places where crime and evil and currption make our cities look like a Maypole Dance.

[theworm]

you're right, people look towards America and see a better life for themselves (isn't that why most of you are their today?), the thing that causes the trouble is that the different cultures don't tend to realize that intergrating into a mutli-cultural cooking pot takes time and patience, otherwise you ruin the soup and burn the pot. Slimmer, don't boil. with the distances between countries growing shorter and shorter each day (ie "the internet"), we need to realize that at some stage we're going to have to just get along. despite what we think or do.

I've made a silly mistake and I've learnt from it, the "left" was wrong, we went after the wrong issue. And now the "right" seems to have the exclusive rights to things like "democracy", "freedom" and "liberation". While the "left" get stuck with a wimpy-old olive branch called "peace" - woohoo.

The real issue is currently staying at 1600 Pencilvainya Avenue (dubya's spelling - not mind).

"wimpy-old olive branch"

the worm

[Fickle]

Actually, G.W. is on the USS Licoln...but, I get your point. Your right to a degree. The "left" had ideas that were noble and true, but I believe to a certain degree that over-amplification took place and the big picture was lost to them.

But it all comes out in the wash, and I think we're getting toward the spin cycle.

[theworm]

Maybe I explained myself wrongly, the big picture was always straight forward, ask anyone who went against this war, they didn't want Saddam in power of Iraq anymore than the next Donny Rumsfield. The things that we got wrong was that this would be a bloody and costly war like vietnam (reminder: how much does it cost per day to fight a war? must look into that) In the end the US victory (opps! prevailed:)) was done with less innocent deaths than expected (please tell me you have some sympathy in this area). The street fighting in baghdad never happened and the army that was going to repel the invaders went AWOL. Face it, if this war wasn't sold by a bunch of shady, crack smoking (check: http://www.beastieboys.com/av/iawgm_lyrics.php, end of first verse) leaders of the free world.

"wartime" leader. more like the 4th stooge.

pieces

the worm

[Fickle]

I'm not a heartless twat. I know that innocents died and I am sorry that it happened. But to call the mission a failure or a step under destruction of the Iraqi people is just foolish.

[ertmann|CPH]

From a military perspective, this war has been extremely succesfull, civilian casualies have been amazingly low, anyone who claim otherwise is naive.

I haven't changed my stance though, And ahead lies the real challenge for America...

[theworm]

I forgot to finished off that last sentence (edit time had expired), I meant to add that this war would have had the backing of much more countries (france, germany and russia included) if the Americans had been less gung-ho about the whole thing. I also never said that the mission was a failure (although Saddam's now on the run like Osama), quite the opposite, But america can't call this war a victory yet, doing that would require POWs to be set free.

Let the UN inspectors back into Iraq, britain has called for it, every other country has called for it.

The US is going to have trouble gaining crediblity from the rest of the world if it finds any WMDs.

No ones against America (I'm personally sick of everyone throwing around the words anti-american, and is party the reason why I'm voicing my concern in this forum) in this crisis, we just want you guys to do the right thing.

Remember how much support you got after sep11, all that support is slowly vanishing, guess why, you may all love your president, but unfortanely the rest of the world views him as threat.

http://www.yougov.com/yougov_website/asp_besPollArchives/pdf/YOU020101126.pdf

It's a british survey, the biggest backers of this war, check page 3 and one question in particular "who of the following poses a greater threat to world peace?"

god damn! I've changed my mind, he's the greatest president the US has ever had, next to Nixon of course. :rolleyes:

that's all folks

the worm

[laz]

Me, I am "anit-american" or whatever. I do hate the US's government and guess what? I live in the US (wow!).
I see the USA as an imperialist nation out to gain only for its self, not to help anyone else out. (if we truly wanted to "liberate" the Iraqie people, why did we just not say that fromt he begining, but no there was this talk about disarming Iraq (do you even remeber that? No?). And it only turned to "liberating" the Iraqie people after disarmerment failed, hell the y where disarming whatever they had, but we attacked anyways, and guess what? No wepons of mass distruction!)

What does Iraq have they, say Tibet does not? OIL, who worked with an oil company or is being payed by oil suits? THE BUSH ADMIN.! Who will help "rebuild" the Iraqie oil infrastructur (sp?) Halliburton, who worked for Halliburton, Our Vice-president. Who basicly runs the show, a bunch of people that is not Bushie Jr. What is wrong there? Oil suits run or nation. (dont try to get off and say they are investing 1.2 billion $USD in hydrogen, b/ where will the H come from under that research? OIL! Not the chemical reaction that seporates the 2 hydrogen atoms from the oxygen atom from Water, but from the good old fossil fule of OIL!)
Why would I support "representitives" that are far from representive of the people?

I just see a HUGE ammont of hypocrecy from our governmet that I just can not support, I dont care if you say "but it is the best gove out there" It is not good enough to me.

Go ahead, say I am a fool, I know that, but I try to stive to know more then the average american (if my social studies class is a good representive of the american population, 4 or 5 people out of 31 know jack shit!)

Why did we get attacked? B/ we where being imperialistisic, imposing our own ideas on people that didnt want a thing to do with it. Let people be, sure there are some not too nice people int he world, but going and installing "US Like" governments only makes more problems when they go and vote someone as "president" that the US would HATE, and then deniy the people form the president they voted for, and just appointed someone as president.

At times I think we need the USSR back again, it helped balace out the power in the world, it was at least USA vs USSR, not USA vs. anyone and everyone. (sure, I was not old enough to know shit about the USSR when it collapsed, but there needs to be an "evil" to balace out stuff)
I dont care what you think, go about your normal lives americans, never think for ourselfs, we think for you, never take off your media blinders, CNN says everyhing you should know, go about your happy ignorent consumerism, we love it.

[theworm]

great, full power to you. you don't like what the government is doing, then vote Bush out of office, I don't think he's supposed to be there anyway. (http://www.fec.gov/pubrec/fe2000/prespop.htm)

It may help to know that the USA has one of the worse voter turnouts (http://www.idea.int/vt/survey/voter_turnout_pop2,2.cfm) in the world.

vote the Bush cartel back to texas, na na na na, hey hey-hey, goodbye. (http://home.att.net/~bubblegumusic/songnanahey.htm)

the worm

[Bingo hanZ]

USA was about the last place I ever wanted to go, but suddenly I found myself in San Francisco and REALLY liked the place.

I met really nice people (mostly Mexicans and Irish though) that were just as critical of their own government as we "Euro-hippies" are.

Fight nationalism everywhere!

Remember Denmark participated in the USA led assault on Iraq - with a submarine... Also, the company Maersk made big bucks transporting American tanks, so guess what?! ...of course they've been offered to partake in the "rebuilding" of Iraq. Their stocks are up and climbing. Our facist government has taken 300 million DKR meant for aid to Africa to finance the aid-programme in Iraq. There was a TV show for raising more money for Iraq. I feel sorry for those who paid up! All they get is a conscience relief. What did Maersk pay?

Hate Denmark - love the Danes

[laz]

Originally posted by theworm
great, full power to you. you don't like what the government is doing, then vote Bush out of office, I don't think he's supposed to be there anyway. (http://www.fec.gov/pubrec/fe2000/prespop.htm)

It may help to know that the USA has one of the worse voter turnouts (http://www.idea.int/vt/survey/voter_turnout_pop2,2.cfm) in the world.

I know it is sad, that 1/4 of the US's population actulay voted for Bush.

Well my problem is that the goverment thinks that once you turn 18 you can think and anything before that you are a worthless idiot. So I will be 2 weeks too young to vote in the 2004 election, I just hope we get a better presidential cannadite then Bush, and people will not be brainwatshed by Bushes election campaign.
So, I am too young to vote now, but I do feel I know far more aobut some politics then most people over 18, hell half of them didnt even vote, that is sad.

Sure there are worse places on the world, but they are 3rd world nations.
If the US wants to help selected 3rd world nations out, why not all of them? Make the world a better place to live, not just your own "homeland"

*the department of homeland panic is reading this post, and sending troops over to capture this "terrorist"*

[$hark]

First, all the stuff doesn't depend on elections at all, not only in US but in any other country too. Whoever is selected he's never a real ruler. Second, Saddam was NOT the worst leader in the world, but(i don't know if CNN or NBC mentioned it) Iraq has a second place in the whole world of oil quantity. Third, when you've begun (I mean Afghanistan and so on) it's really difficult to stop. And last, I strongly believe that September 11 was done by CIA or another suchlike service to get the opportunity to fuck all Middle east

[fwgx]

People ask me where I stood politically you know. It's not that I disagree with Bush's economic policy or his foreign policy. But that I believe he was a child of Satan here to destroy the planet Earth.

Yeah, I'm a little a little to the left there, I was. I was leaning that way.And that conspiracy theory does looks almost plausable.

[laz]

Originally posted by $hark
And last, I strongly believe that September 11 was done by CIA or another suchlike service to get the opportunity to fuck all Middle east


I was thinking that the goverment had planed out that hole "terrorist" attack and everthing. But then with all the other media hype, I didnt think it could have happend, untill the govermnet did not use a 3rd part analist group to figure out that the casue of it was. It is as if they are hiding something.

I also remeber that the Republican party was going to attack Iraq long befor Bush was president (1999). Some people that are now in control of the country wrote some plan up that goes that this : We will slowly move to attacking Iraq unless another Pear Harbor happens, then we will go quickly.
No, that made me think, they here going to attack logn ago, and the mentions another Pear Harbor like attack, hmm.... the WTC/Pentagon attack was basicly like that... they wnat to attack Iraq... now thay can do it quickly.... Is this staged? Must have been.
OH and speaking of being staged! Dont get me started about all that staged propogand that was being ared on all the news stations. "Saddam Statue falls" STAGED!

Wow, I have to cool off.

[Fickle]

I'd like some documents to prove your bullshit theorems about staged stuff. Maybe a suggestion, but I doubt the Iraqis were paid to tear down Saddams statue.

I doubt the CIA is behind the WTC. Mainly because they were already in hot water in the publics eye for all the bullshit they've been doing for the last 40 years. I'm begging you to give me documents that show the the Republicans were planning on Iraqi Invasion.

[$hark]

OK, show me the documents proving the necessity to invade Iraq.
And, as for WTC, there are no documents proving it was done by Osama(if he exists at all). And, if he exists - I doubt he's such an idiot - he had to realize what would happen after that.

[zootm]

the documents supposedly written by osama (in places) that were found would bring lie to that one, $hark. unless you think they were planted... but if you're gonna have to go down that line you must remember that there's no real proof that we have access to that there was a war in iraq at all...

[$hark]

To go further, there's a version that Neil Armstrong had never been on the Moon and it was just a huge fake. But to be serious, Osama is an excellent reason to grab all the oil that isn't yet grabbed. And please don't tell me about democracy, weapons of mass destruction and so on.

[zootm]

i've already talked too much about this on this forum. just do a search or something.

[laz]

Originally posted by Fickle
I'd like some documents to prove your bullshit theorems about staged stuff. Maybe a suggestion, but I doubt the Iraqis were paid to tear down Saddams statue.

I doubt the CIA is behind the WTC. Mainly because they were already in hot water in the publics eye for all the bullshit they've been doing for the last 40 years. I'm begging you to give me documents that show the the Republicans were planning on Iraqi Invasion.

http://www.hermes-press.com/keys9_11.htm

then again there are "documents" that prove we do not exist. So this servers no real purpose.

Sure the CIA might not have been behind it, it still doenst mean they every tryed it from happening.

And the Republican part on the Iraqie war, I can not find it this minute, and I dont really feal like digging around right now.

[Fickle]

Woa, an I thought I was paranoid.

[RyuRyu]

Checking back to see, this thread has now become a conspiracy theory?:rolleyes:

I have to say this isn't the purpose of this thread. The purpose of the thread was to explain and reason 'why we are hated' 'why we shouldn't be blamed'...... good stuff.

But this BS of 9/11. even if you don't believe the fine filtered mainstream media, you shouldn't automatically jump on a totally right extremist view. 9/11 was plotted by the CIA! psshh!! that's really dumb buddy, real dumb thing to say.

A) During and before 9/11, America showed very pausible sign of recovery from this recession. If you trully believe the government is selfish in their own greedy fashion, to do whatever in it's power to make themselves more rich, why would they go out and allow the Financial Heart of America to collapse, Their Central Intelligence to hault....... plunging it's country in an even further downturn.

Lowering consumer confidence / security
>which lead to lower sales / loss in profit
>which lead to heavy company budgeting
>which lead to job cuts
>which further fuels lower sales

Which equates to me graduating last year as a Mechanical Engineer from a acclaimed college with no job. Less that 30% of my graduating classmates actually knew what they were doing once June rolled around. I now work for a very well acclaimed company, but nonetheless.......

Bush ofcourse had to retaliated. Bomb and chased Bin Laden. Unsuccessful! Turned it's attention to Iraq. Kept pressing until the world turned it's back to him. Bush had to keep pressing because the economy took another dip because of the countries uncertainty,.... if he backed down 2 months ago, the recent economical dip would have happened all for nothing.... war would recover some of the loss, and possibly more.

Result, cheaper gas, a stimulant for the economy. Yet the economy still sucks!

Do you think the economy would have been WORSE if the US stopped 9/11.


I know this is a WINAMP forum but let's think for a second before spitting out your wildest dreams.



:hang:

[fwgx]

It only depends on where your interests in the ecconmy lie, the type of companies and what they do. Lockheed Martin have done pretty well after 11/9 for example.

[RyuRyu]

yeah, well it specializes in manufacturing military vehicles, planes, weapons, huge contract with the government...........

i guess then Lockheed Martin was the one fueling the movement towards war then.... BRILLIANT!

[laz]

All I am saying is you never now.
Notice how our constitution is now about useless with the "Patriot Act"? All to make us safer? From ourselfs?
All I am saying is that the terrorist acts did work as intended, they changed the government, a lot. I dont care how safe I am an all, I just want my privacy and my Constitution back. That is why I hate the US (Bush Admin.)
Well and the copyright laws, and the law system, and the Cops.....
Sure the economy sucks, it has for some time, it will, but it might recover. and the war related comp's loved this "war" More money to them.
*useless*

[fwgx]

Search for Haliburton on these forums RyuRyu.

[$hark]

Originally posted by RyuRyu

I have to say this isn't the purpose of this thread. The purpose of the thread was to explain and reason 'why we are hated' 'why we shouldn't be blamed'...... good stuff.


If you wanted to know, why americans are hated in almost all countries of the world, including US (!) it is really simple. When you're told that you behave like an american it means that you're rude,insolent, don't caring about others' opinions. That's stereotype, of course, but look how your country behaves in UN and in all foreign affairs. Maybe stereotypes work sometimes ?

[laz]

$hark, you say you are from russia, does that mean you are old enough to remeber the USSR's rule? I am just trying to get some unbiased (ie, US media) views on its later stages (like after Stalin, and that N guys name that I can not spell).

How many of the bush admin. have worked or own in the Oil industry? A lot. So, was Iraq about "freeing" people or taking their oil?
I give you a situation for you: It is in the 1860's with the American civil war going on, France never attacked Mexico, and the Mexicans created a large military force and attacked to "liberate" the Americans from their oppresive rulers that where forcing them to go to war. Mexico, seeing the Americans are fighting each other, and are weakend, easily get took over the the invading mexicans, liberating them. I personaly wouldnt like to be controled by a foregen force.

America is only in it for itself, the gov't dosent care about other nations, only about what could be best for the few eleet, that have an ass load of money already.

[Fickle]

Originally posted by RyuRyu
Checking back to see, this thread has now become a conspiracy theory?:rolleyes:

I have to say this isn't the purpose of this thread. The purpose of the thread was to explain and reason 'why we are hated' 'why we shouldn't be blamed'...... good stuff.:hang:


Ummmm....just because you started the thread doesn't mean you can command the topic. This is a forum and many subjects get moved around. Subjects evolve. Luckily, your interruption (whether it is "your thread", which it's not) didn't sway the conversation, despite an attempt to bring us back to praising you and your wonderful topic :rolleyes:.



I don't agree with many of America's policies, but I still stand behind it. Just because you dislike someones nose doesn't mean you can kill them. In the same way, why hate the entire US because of some of the things we do.

[kyrse]

Being from Britain I can honestly say we are not jealous of America. I would love to take this opportunity to take the piss out of Bush (which we all know could be easily done) but our Prime Minister is basically Bush's pet dog, so I can't say anything. But anyway, I think Americans, not all, but a lot give out an impression that they are very ignorant, gun-ho and arrogant. And being anti-war is definately not unpatriotic, it is just disagreeing with the reasons for the war. I know Americans have an obsession with communism and the great 'threat' it is on our world (and I don't agree with Communism personally) but why must the USA put their noses in everyone's elses business. The war in Iraq was not for Iraqi's, it was for the Bush administration and their oil barons. There are many other countries in the world needing help but they have nothing to offer. American are definately seen as the bullies of the world, and when someone stands up to them, e.g. Germany and France, they get offended. You can't have it your own way all the time, this time though, you did!

And I wasn't saying Iraq was anything to do with Communism, just a side thought. I was thinking more of North Korea

[kyrse]

anyone there?

[laz]

Yes.
about the commies. I only like then b/ it was some unknown treat, something that made the US worry, someone that could bullie the US back around. Now that it is gone, the US is free to police the world, something that is not too good, seeing they go for their own good, not the worlds.
THe UN is a joke to the US, at least they act that way.
The world needs a police for the police (US). Something that is not happening.
I dislike bush, and dont know many younger ppl that do like him.

[RyuRyu]

Ummmm....just because you started the thread doesn't mean you can command the topic. This is a forum and many subjects get moved around. Subjects evolve. Luckily, your interruption (whether it is "your thread", which it's not) didn't sway the conversation, despite an attempt to bring us back to praising you and your wonderful topic .

theres really only so few worthy commentators in this forum and they all happened to be those that you are arguing against. Is this your version of retaliating for my previous conversation with you? Quite childish I would say, and again a good example of the simple and short sighted views of a typical yahoo.

As far as communism, America represents the pinnacle of the so called 'Capitalistic' achievement. Money, and in order for the further expansion of it's power and capability, it would need it's neighbor to govern themselves under similar system, thereby able to sell US products to them. Thereby America was in every battle fighting against communism, to ensure it's ultimate future. If anybody were to take basic ECON class in college, you would realize the great influence Marxism has stamped into our own American economical system, quite hypocritical.

Anyway communism in Russia everntually failed because of human greed. The common Russian soon realized that others outside Russia could achieve such wealth and material property, while such things were so heavily regulated in their own country. Communism would have indeed been the system that created global peace and harmony but unfortuantely Marx gave too much credential to people.


Kyrse, atleast your country has politicians that have enough guts to walk out on their prime minister. Very powerful. I find it suspicious that none of our cabinet members feel ill about our foreign activities. Actually Colin Powell was the first to speak out against a War but he was quickly taken away from the lime light, sent on a foreign mission, and returned with his tail between his legs.

Gutless

[$hark]

No, I don't like the commies, and the majority of people in my country agree with me. But that's nothing to do with US. You know, right after USSR was destroyed, most of the population were just adoring the US, all that was considered to be "like in the West", and so on. But just after 10 years it's all gone. It is simple to explain - in USSR we haven't seen and met americans and now we do and know what they are like - sorry guys, but it's really true

[kyrse]

It's true about the politicians walking out, bravo to them! Well done good sirs. But apart from Robin Cook there was noone high up who resigned. Also we had about 6 members who promised to resign, then wimped out (Claire Short is the worst!) Anyway, just wanna say they all seem to have way too many flaws which scares the life out of me. These people are meant to look after us!
No-one voter apathy is rife

[Fickle]

Originally posted by RyuRyu
theres really only so few worthy commentators in this forum and they all happened to be those that you are arguing against. Is this your version of retaliating for my previous conversation with you? Quite childish I would say, and again a good example of the simple and short sighted views of a typical yahoo.

As far as communism, America represents the pinnacle of the so called 'Capitalistic' achievement. Money, and in order for the further expansion of it's power and capability, it would need it's neighbor to govern themselves under similar system, thereby able to sell US products to them. Thereby America was in every battle fighting against communism, to ensure it's ultimate future. If anybody were to take basic ECON class in college, you would realize the great influence Marxism has stamped into our own American economical system, quite hypocritical.

Anyway communism in Russia everntually failed because of human greed. The common Russian soon realized that others outside Russia could achieve such wealth and material property, while such things were so heavily regulated in their own country. Communism would have indeed been the system that created global peace and harmony but unfortuantely Marx gave too much credential to people.


Kyrse, atleast your country has politicians that have enough guts to walk out on their prime minister. Very powerful. I find it suspicious that none of our cabinet members feel ill about our foreign activities. Actually Colin Powell was the first to speak out against a War but he was quickly taken away from the lime light, sent on a foreign mission, and returned with his tail between his legs.

Gutless

Sorry, I just labelled you as a n00b who thought he has control over all conversations he's involved with. Thanks for proving me right. It was no retaliation, I happen to think you're a decent thinking person, but since you've called me a "yahoo" because I asked you which part of nJ you visited and you NEVER ANSWERED ME, I figured I'd give you a little taste of reality. Just because you started the thread doesn't make you a Mod who can tell people off because you're trying to change the conversation.

Communism is a pipe dream. Human nature has made attempts at it fail miserably ever since it's inception. Anybody who took simple Social Studies in 5th grade knows this.

[GenRabbit]

Originally posted by theworm
Maybe it's time to start blaming America's most reliable source of oil - argentina, for this whole mess, if the oil workers there hadn't gone on strike, maybe installing a "stable" government in Iraq wouldn't have happened, or could have happened in a much more democratic process.
[/B]

Well, You maight blame others countries for Americas mistakes. But Argentina is not USA most stable oil supplier. Its not even exporting oil as far as I know.. The country your should be targetting in this case is Venezuela. Some thousans miles further north.

;)

GenRabbit out..

[Nimelennar]

I consider myself more anti-American than pro-American, but I feel this story does have two sides.

Pro-American: Americans have built their country up as a land of opportunity, where people can come and be treated fairly. You have the freedom to do pretty much anything you want if you set your mind to it, as long as it falls within the law. A lot of people in your country have a genuine desire to help people from other countries, and I respect that. Another part of your image you have is that you're powerful. I see the need to maintain this image, because it's part of what's keeping the rest of the world from attacking you, for your wealth and maybe from jealousy too. Most of the reason you were attacked on 9/11 was because of hate stirred up under the name of religion, a religion which is mostly peaceful, and the majority of Americans didn't react negatively to Islam after that attack. In order to keep your facade of strength, targeting a strike on Afghanistan was a fairly good move. If America was really all that bad, they would have sent missiles flying everywhere they thought an Al-Quaida (spelling?) base could be, all over the Middle-East. Instead, they overthrew a corrupt, oppressive government, the Taliban, in a country where the mastermind of the attack was being protected.

Anti-American: There is such a thing as going too far. I'm not just talking about the war on terrorism, but let's start with that. While the war on Afghanistan was largely supported, the war on Iraq was not. All I was hearing for weeks on CNN (yes I get CNN in Canada) was how Iraq had Weapons of Mass Destruction, not about how Iraqis were suffering. The entire thing was based around the premise of how the weapons inspectors weren't doing their job fast enough etc. About a day before the war began, it started shifting focus. Suddenly they were justifying the war because of the plight of the Iraqi people. Granted, they were suffering, but so are the Saudi people, and a lot of other people in the Middle-East. The Americans aren't doing anything about the Saudis, are they? Not that I can see!
Shifting away from the war, I'm remembering a Summer Olympic gold-medal match, it was some one-on-one fight between a Canadian and an American. The Canadian offered to shake hands with the American. The American ignored the Canadian gesture, discarding it as if the Canadian was inferior. I'm not going to mention who won, but the gesture strengthens the American stereotype. At the 2002 Winter Olympics, the American men's hockey team had the Canadian flag on the floor of their locker room. They said it was a gesture of respect, but it makes me wonder what the Americans would have thought if there was an American flag on the floor of the Canadian's locker room. Probably that it was meant to collect any dirt and sweat that fell on the floor. I'm not too sure about American law, but treating an American flag like that on American soil would probably have gotten the Canadians arested. Respect indeed!

I could probably go on for hours on the Anti-American part... But I haven't the time. All I can say to end this post is, there are good Americans and there are bad Americans. No stereotype applies to every member of any group. I hope Americans can acquire a better reputation in the future.

Just remember... Reputations have to be earned.

[theworm]

:cry: I've been wronged!:D Your right, I didn't actually do any research into what I had heard (there's a leason there kids).

To clear up the matter, Argentina does export to the US (http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/petroleum_supply_monthly/current/pdf/table35.pdf) although not that much.

I'm sorry for misleading the forum, but I'm going to research this a bit further.

Just for the record, I am not from the United States.

-always wrong

theworm

[RyuRyu]

Just remember... Reputations have to be earned.

Indeed reputation needs to be earned, with great effort, but can be lost in a flash of a year. Quite honestly I don't think we would be able to regain any respect by the global citizen within the next 15 yrs.

As far as the reason for war, you have indeed studied CNN very well and have noticed the shifting pattern, which is Great! I myself never watched it because it's repetitive boredom, I only keep up on current affairs through BBC and NewsWeek.

It's funny America did instigate this war with the reason of WMD, but eventually shifted it to Humanitarian reasons at the end, focusing and repeating the image of the toppoling of the stature, over and over again, making people trully believe that the war was a complete success. But if Humanitarian was original concern for the almighty America, aren't there other countries around the world that are begging on they knees for support? What about them. Why Iraq? Wheres the proof, the smoking gun? Why now?

In the end the war was a success in terms of overthrowing a totalitarian government, but an utter failure to control the power vacancy, an equally important task and reprecotion.

Why is it that when you cross the Canadian - American border, people tend to be a little more open minded?

[RyuRyu]

And the scary thing is, hardly anybody cared about Iraq.

As soon as the media discussed WMD possibility with Iraq, people started jumping on that.

And as soon as the media shifted towards Humanitarian goals, everyone became so concerned about the need to show the Irqians, their version of democracy, which would never work.

The media is so powerful. It's like a mind controlling drug.

[$hark]

I just don't understand. Are you all trying to find a reason which was really worth attacking ? If Venezuela's oil workers didn't strike, we would see the war later, but it was absolutely unavoidable(for Bush, I mean). Northern Korea is extremely lucky not to have oil, therefore koreans can do almost whatever they want.And, as for media, it always serves its owner - it might be noticeable or not but still it's always trying to be "a mind controlling drug".
By the way, are there any foreign TV channels in US, I mean more or less covering the majority of the country ?

[laz]

foreign tv stations in the US? None, unless this OLN counts, it seems every foreign, I mean there is no Nascar, no hicksvillness on it, just some weard sailers, hunters, looks like canadians :p

I live in michigan, but on the other side, away from Canada, and no such foreign TV.
The only one I have seen was when I was in hawaii, so there was a lot of odd Japanese stuff on TV, and some CNNfs or something. And it was just as bad as normal CNN.

The only hope for americans is to get online and look up the news.
This is another problem that must be addressed, we has basicly 5 media companyes that give the population basicly everything. So they will lie and not cover stuff that might insult them.

[kyrse]

Are there any stations in the US that show alternative points of view to the, 'we are always doing the right thing, even when it's blatently wrong'. I mean Micheal Moore and Bill Hicks seem to be the only Americans I've seen actually telling people. But then I dont live in America so what do I know????
P.S. also I know Bill Hicks is dead over 10 years but what he says about the first Bush basically can be about the new 'President'

[laz]

Umm.. alterative TV, impossible from what I have seen. The only "alterative" stuff is like NPR radio, and this collage station by me.
So I can understand why many people are so ignorent, they actilay have to work for the real news, and not to get brainwashed by CNN.
There are too little people actulay trying to speek out on about everything, it is baslicly "we agree with everything the govermnet says" It is horrible.
But then again I am not the most knowlageable in the land of TV seeing I have baslicy stoped watching the lies and filth on it.

[Squid6point1]

The way this topic has turned, i now pity you unlucky guys and gals in the USA. Lets think of countries/societies as individuals. The USA is the child of a parent who used violence to teach it it's place in the world. To leave "home" and become free it had to do some weights and backhand mean old dad. Now it thinks that's a good way to resolve the harder issues with others. It associates with other troubled youths (Australia and the other supporters) and even old dad. They get scared by people doing things differently, so they biff them and sometimes steal their lunch money (or extort it, or trick them out of it eg. "free" trade). Mabey these guys had better get real jobs doing something constructive for a change. I guess the problem lies in the fact constructive things tend to generate far less money.

Planting trees is constructive, but that only pays us in oxygen, ozone, normal sea levels. Who want's that crap? You can't buy ex-military Hummers with that!?
Looking after the underpriveleged is constructive, but they only pay us with happier societies. Who wants that? You can't buy a gun with that!?
We could try to learn from other cultures and religions to promote understanding of ourselves and our world, that would be constructive. But then who would we sell weapons to and who could we fight?
Nah... I'm gonna stay in my bubble, the TV will tell me what I need to know. I supposed to buy some more locks because we're on "orange alert".

[Fickle]

To make your point, you've stated a blunder. The US has more trees per acre now than it did in 1883.

I'm unsubscribing to this thread, as I no longer care. You guys keep swapping info and pretend you're doing the world a favor by breeding hate towards the US.

[Squid6point1]

Good to hear, planting trees is good. Now try uprooting some industry and buying cars that aren't so fucking huge. Insecure people in Australia are buying SUVs too, why not just get penis enlargments. Tell me, how much carbon dioxide was being produced by industrialisation in 1883? Besides, it's not just the US that didn't sign the Kyoto Protocol. Australia didn't either, I think it sucks that 1st world countries can't even set an example by helping that little bit.
I like Americans, at least, the ones I've met. I just don't like your media, hollywood hype (and 90% of your movies), some peoples blind patriotism, your love of guns, and your international actions. You've done some pretty good things for others too, if someone could list them for me I'd like it. Don't try to tell me how good it was to win wars either, we joined those bloodbaths too. The only thing worse than loosing a war is winning one.
You've also got a beautiful country and a lot of other things going for you.
I can even understand and forgive your over zealous patriotism. You're pumped so full of: "We live in the greatest country in the world" or "God bless America" that I've heard that more times than my own national anthem.
I don't hate America, but I'm just sure as hell not jelous of you either.

We share the greatest planet in our solar system. God/Allah/Buddha/Krishna bless EVERYTHING.

[ertmann|CPH]

i think what i hate most about americans are their blind patrotism, refusing to see the flaws that american society does have.

Personally, i don't think that one country can be called the greatest/best, all have it's strengths and weakneses.

I would prefer a mix, like the liberal attitude of Holland and Scandinavia, Swiss Internationalism, Hong Kong/Singapore style cultural melting pot, Thai Beaches and weather, Scandinavian Education and Welfare system, Latin mañana mentality, African and Asian spirituality.....

Unfortunantly i can't have all that in one place :( Allthough i think i'm gonna move to one of the city's around the world who has alot of different cultures living side by side.

I'm never going to forget where i came from though, and it's allright to be proud of your country, many americans just seem to over do it.

[anti-hero]

well well well.
i dont agree with any form of war. I'm from England and most of my friends hate George Dubya. He seems like he's finishing business for his dad, and then some. Sure, Saddam hussein was a mentalist, but really, is there any need in randomly obliterating Baghdad. Did they find him? no! Did they find any weapons of mass destruction? NO! so what was it all about? is George Bush just flexing americas proverbial muscles so noone else tries any dodgy stuff? maybe he's some form of alien who hates earth and wants to end it...
Keep the peace. especially you "Mr President"
:down:

[MamiyaOtaru]

Originally posted by ertmann|CPH
[Bthe fact that if you win a state you win all the mandates from it (which i think is very unfair)[/B] Well, it's nice to have opinions. I'm not sure why everyone seems to think the US should change its centuries old practice to suit their opinion though. If the beloved Gore had one, no one would be whining about it. Or maybe you would..

There is a reason for it being the way it is though. Things are the way they are in order to give smaller states a slightly larger say than they would have otherwise. Each state gets a proporionate number of representatives to the lower house of congress rougly equal to their proportion of the US population. In addition, each state gets two senators (for the upper house). Thus, even the smallest state has three representatives (and electoral votes) even if their population would dictate only one in a strictly proportional system.

This, by design, gives smaller states a bit more of a say than they would have in a pure popular vote system. It was set up this way as a deliberate compromise between having each state have an equal say, and having each state's say be based purely on population.

A lot of thought, debate, wrangling and compromise went into the system, and I for one am sick of people bellyaching that they know better just because they are bitter that their preferred candidate didn't win (esp when the person moaning is from another country. boohoo). It has happened before and it will happen again.
the corporate sponsorships of campaigns Corporate, union sponsored, special interest funded, hollywood controlled whatever. I agree here.
and the fact that you only have two parties that count for anything... Having two is a happy effect of the winner take all system of all electoral votes from a state going to the winner of the state, but this, again, is a good thing. Having two parties by nature prevents extremist parties from ever gaining power. Since we can do nothing but give our opinions here, I personally think the chaotic coalitions necessary to form a government in so many european countries are less than ideal (While I too am now voicing opinions about other coutnries' system, it is only in response to the same thing having already been done to me) Case in point: all the worry in Austria about that right winger (Jörg Haider) coming to power. That would never happen in a two party system (make all your crappy Bush = Nazi jokes here, they won't be unexpected, original, or accurate)

Anyway, people are of course welcome to disagree with American policy. I just tire of ill informed mitching and boning about our political system, which system I feel is well thought out and has stood the test of time.

[MamiyaOtaru]

re: why my family owns a 20 foot pickup truck and an SUV: Wyoming is full of dirt rads, tracks that are something less than a road, and copious amounts of snow in the winter, with many of the roads connecting towns an hundred miles apart with nothing in between (read: the last place you want to get stuck).

People in Los Angeles who own SUVs make me laugh/pissed, but there are places where they serve a purpose. There are places here where an Audi A4 Quattro just wouldn't cut it.

Of course, the vast majority of Americans don't live in such wild places (Obviously: they are empty after all) so I don't disagree that too many americans own SUVs. Just saying that sometimes big cars have a purpose.

[theworm]

no form of government can ever be perfect, and yes for a long time the US democratic elections worked well. Yet the last election you had was an utter mess. We're not trying to get you to change your "centuries old" system (explain the patriots act I & II to me), maybe if you just think about it a little bit more.

And yes I'm welcome to my opinion, and I look forward to keeping it. How long before your not entitled to have one?

-the worm

edit. of course big cars (SUVs) have a purpose. most people would agree with you, if you need one (ie rugged country) then fine. If you need to pick up the kids from school or drive to work along the express then get off the ****ing road.:)

[laz]

Originally posted by theworm
And yes I'm welcome to my opinion, and I look forward to keeping it. How long before your not entitled to have one?


I am saying 2007, if bush gets "reelected"


edit. of course big cars (SUVs) have a purpose. most people would agree with you, if you need one (ie rugged country) then fine. If you need to pick up the kids from school or drive to work along the express then get off the ****ing road.:) [/B]

I agree, but why would you use the BMW or Volvo SUV for off-road driving? Most SUV's are not made to go off-road, and then, hold no use other than to suck down gas like mad and flip over.

[oNaMiSsIo]

i love god. can't we all get along?

[theworm]

I throught we were all getting along, unless any of you have any pre-emptive strikes planned? :)

are we all agree'd on SUV's? great.

-I'm off to the supermarket (http://www.volvoxc90.com/home/)

the worm

[DreamTheater]

theres really only so few worthy commentators in this forum and they all happened to be those that you are arguing against.

ryuryu your arrogance blew me away. Really. that was one of the most closeminded statements i have ever seen.

[Zeph]

To me, the U.S. is the best country because it is where i live and will always live. This is not arrogance, this is pride and it has nothing to do with politics or the government "manipulating my mind through the media." We may have problems, but so do all countries. People from outside the U.S. who love to insult this country should know something. Don't speak about a country you know nothing about. You speak of us having a poor exposure to world views. What makes yours any better? Nothing does. In other words, don't speak up if you are no better. And to those in the U.S. who say the U.S. has a shallow and materialistic culture, i suggest you leave your little suburb. Your little sheltered corner in your home. Have you people ever seen a real American? Probably not. You are the ones who speak of yourselves. You are the materialistic Americans who think that every American strives to be what you are. Again, to those who live outside the U.S. Even if we have the money, why would we want to all travel to another country? Especially when we go there and get treated like shit if we mention or give clues that we are American. Why would we go to other countries when the chances of facing the fate of Daniel Pearl are no longer low, not even in Europe are we safe. Many talk of the U.S. being isolated. Yes, we are isolated in a social aspect. No one country as a whole in the world respects the U.S. and its citizens at all. Why do you think we act the way we do? You created our isolationist policies, not us. We just respond to the cold shoulder you give us. But what happens when your cold feelings that are directed to the U.S. go to far? You get George Bush. You get the majority opinion that you see in the U.S. today. The "fuck the UN" majority that supports war for our own good. Despite what you want to think, we are not manipulated by our media. We actually watch the anti-u.s. rhetoric that flows through yours. From France to Asia. You create our feelings towards the world. Don't blame our feelings of feeling cornered and looked down upon on us. Blame yourselves. This is the USA you wanted all along, isn't it? Like anyone else, we only take abuse for so long before we start striking back. Look at Iraq. Look how we overstepped the UN. This is only the beginning of a precedent George Bush has set. Call it a revolution if you will. Now you will have a harder time complaining of globalization. Most of the companies you complain that do human rights violations are not even American owned anymore anyway. And when we pull out of the UN, which will hopefully happen. Your invalid arguments will just fall apart. You will be exposed as you are. You hate for the sake of hating. You just love finding the scapegoat and try to tear them apart. Believe me, the U.S. is not ancient Rome. We pull out our funding in the world market and everywhere from Europe to Asia will be in chaos. Who relies on who? Think before you speak and stop thinking what you see in our media and your media or anything speaking about the U.S. is what we are. Because that is ignorance.

[laz]

Zeph, are you by change a republican?
B/ what you are saying is a bunch of CRAP (IMO).
"You created our isolationist policies, not us" Umm... how can forgien nations make OUR policies? They dont, We make them. And many nations want to cooperate with the US but the US blasts them and tells them to shut up.
YES I am an american, and I hate it.
The UN is crucial, if we bail on that, the world would turn against us and our imperialism, why do you think the UN was fourmed? To help solve global issues, and if the US bails on something it help make, we would be labed as self centers imperialist, wait, it has already happend, and are labed that, so nothing new.
If you think Murdoch (soon to be owner of ALL media, thans to the FCC) does not control your mind and media is a truly open forum to discussion and all, you truly are falling for its lies. It is owned by a sinlg company, and that company will say what "news" gets shown and what is never reported.

Anyways Golalization is not a good thing, let other peoples cultures do their own thing, and if you dont like it , too bad.

Sure the USA has it's good points, but it is far too corpritized to relize what they are without getting "ENRON" slamed in your face.

Side note, 4 in 10 congress people are millionares, and that the poorest one is still living in the upper middle class level. That is not really representive of the US majority now is it? They represent the rich and powerful, not the poor lower-class.

[Janus Lunar]

Originally posted by laz9999
All I am saying is you never now.
Notice how our constitution is now about useless with the "Patriot Act"? All to make us safer? From ourselfs?
All I am saying is that the terrorist acts did work as intended, they changed the government, a lot. I dont care how safe I am an all, I just want my privacy and my Constitution back. That is why I hate the US (Bush Admin.)
Well and the copyright laws, and the law system, and the Cops.....
Sure the economy sucks, it has for some time, it will, but it might recover. and the war related comp's loved this "war" More money to them.
*useless*

AMEN!

This REPUBLIC is going downhill fast.........

If ANYONE wants to contest my calling the goverment a REPUBLIC please DO NOT POST!

[Zeph]

Same old, same old. Heard the same words you spit out over a million times. Do you people like laz9999 have a manuscript in front of you telling you what to say?
BTW, i don't align myself with any political label.
Also, if you get a cold feeling from a country or countries. D you want to keep ties with them if it continues for a long while (say over years and years). No, you don't. So the decision starts with the nation that is treating you as worthless. Don't even act like the U.S. is the only guilty one and that all other countries are just victims. That is what a bunch of crap is like.

How is the UN crucial. Especially with the mess they dragged into in 1999 and the Balkans. Especially how they are the largest reason the U.S. has the bad image it has today. I suggest you look at the facts. The UN countries use us as a pawn for our powers. You really believe that the CIA was ordered by our presidents to carry out "missions". No, it was because of the submission to the UN to get jobs finished that they wanted done. I don't call manipulation wanting to cooperate. You are so blind to see that the UN is not in any way good. I'm not one of the ones that will say, "If you don't like this country, get out." But i will say you have probably bitched about every possible thing wrong with this country. Yet you won't get off your ass and do something about it (past the protests you might attend--which that does not do anything). Why not stop complaining on message boards and do something for your community.
Hmmm...is this message board or the internet as a whole controlled by the FCC, i don't think so. Does the FCC control the minds of people who report in the media, no. Your beliefs seem to be manipulated by who knows what, free media? Do you even know what news channels i watch or what news sites i go to? My views on the world come from numerous international news outlets. If they only came from CNN or FOX i wouldn't be half as involved as i am now in discussions like this. What makes it so wrong that American news channels cut down the slamming of the U.S. to minimum and what makes the media better in other countries because they love to rip this country apart..
You support the UN but are against globalization? Again, open your eyes. Why do you think the UN manipulates its members for? Surely not to keep peace. Why are U.S. forces called an occupying force yet UN forces are called peacekeepers. It is called submission through ignorance. Let the UN colonize using troops of others and call it keeping the peace. Look at the wonders the UN has done for the French control of the Ivory Coast and surrounding places. No one ever speaks of that. France has the right in the eyes of the IC.
Have you really checked who really owned the most of Enron before it collapsed. I can tell you it probably wasn't an American or American(s)
Wow! 4 in 10 members in congress are millionaires. Well 10 out of 10 rap artists nowadays are too. What meaning does that have? None. How thick their pockets are does not always manipulate their train of thought. Do you know how they think inside their minds? The majority of them know what it is to be in an average family. Some of them may have even been raised in a "poor lower class" family. How much money they have does not represent them. They EARN that money for the hard work they have done. If anything, "the poor lower class" could take inspiration from that. If you aren't willing to notice the possibilities and opportunities in this country that are right in front of your face, then you may as well just keep to yourself. Not everything you are told by Indymedia and Democracy Now isn't total truth either.

[Janus Lunar]

Zeph, do me a favor..........

DO NOT CRITISIZE ME FOR POSTING MY OPINION!

At this point I have no interest in world affairs, it's all the same anyway.......

When everyonbe is getting along call me until then.......(expletives deleted) (flaming phrase deleted)

[Zeph]

Why do people whine with just a little exposure to debating? And why did you come her Janus if you don't have any interest in world affairs?

[Janus Lunar]

1. I did not whine......
2. I thought I would see what others thought of the US.......
3. I was under the impression that haveing no interest in world affairs made you a patriot! (that is the way most people seem to express patriotism nowadays)
4. Just DROP IT ZEPH!

[laz]

Welcome to the forums Zeph.
I do think a lot of contradicting ideas and such, and I get confused by them. I know the Poor have all the opertunities to become rich and powerful. But they do have mnay chalanges, like how to go to collage to get a degree to get a good job, if they have no money, and schollorships(sp?) are not enough.
But they use it as a crutch to want to get handouts, and they does not make them want to try hard to get money... so there are problems. Sure somethimes they need the money, to stay alive, but most do not.
About the media, I am just saying that the average Joe and jane american does not go to the computer and look for less biased points of views, they turn on their TV and put on CNN or Fox News or MSNBC or whatever station they like. So they are not really getting much of others views. I know I am not getting enough views to truly form unbiased opinions, but then again it is impossivble.
The UN is only good when they do not used force to solve issues. War can never truly solve problems. So that is their problem. I just want them to be a peaceful forum to solve problems, and have nations to help them do that. Not what they are today. Kindof like then it was originaly thought up of, not what it is today. So ya... I am a hypocrite in ways.
I dont really want this to be a flame war or whatnot. I just wanted to post my views.
And I would try to change the governmet, but there is little minor can do, my congresspeople dont give a shit about my ideas, they just want to side with big buisness, not the consumers.
And I was just pointing out that 4 in 10 congressmen (fuck politicaly correctness) are millionares, and they are ment to REPRESENT the american people. I dont care if they made their money by hard work, what I dont like is when they get it form their family, so they dont have to work at all in their life.

Yes I am an idiot, I to try to find more views, ya indymedia is not that good, I only care about some events they report on, like protestes (and ya, they do little to change things in this day and age)

Well I am out for a week, so I dont care what you think.
Enjoy the open forum, and the freedom we have. Who know how much longer we will have this freedom with the TIA and Patriot acts in place now.

[ShyShy]

ok, i can understand the backlash us americans get from the world. we are arrogant, simple fact, because we hold a lot of power. but when the international community needs our help... we give it, we'll bitch and moan, but we'll help.

prime example: I was living in the philippines when a huge earthquake pretty much devatated the nation (1989?). US military installations opened the hospitals and galvanized their resources to help. hell, they had so many people trying to donate blood, that they had to shut down the blood bank, they didn't have enough space! we did search and rescue, loaned heavy equipment to go thru the rubble, and soo much more. but what pissed me off... the philippine gov't majorly downplaying our actions. no formal recgonition of our efforts and support. that was a slap in the face. but, hey, that's life for us... and now, the philippines wants our help again fighting islamic extremists in mindanao, and again we'll help them out.

[Zeph]

Like you said ShyShy, our actions were downplayed by the Phillipine governement and now they want our help. We all know this happens over and over and over again in places other than the Phillipines. I would like to ask many from outside the U.S., where was our help on 9/11. No one stepped up and did a thing. Many were probably busy sitting back like it was a great event to watch, like a action movie watching buildings falling on innocent American citizens. While Palestinians were dancing in the streets and many others were celebrating on the inside from Europe to Asia. And the IC wonders why we are going in alone in Iraq. And we are said to be wanting the oil. What will be the reason you make up for us when we go into North Korea if needed? The rice?

[Nimelennar]

No one did anything with 9/11? OK, it was a long time ago, but there are some things I do remember:
Some of the southern Canadian hospitals were taking 9/11 patients. Canada sent ambulances, fire trucks, and held blood drives to help you with 9/11. There's probably more stuff that I can't remember at the moment.

Also, during a blizzard a couple years ago, Toronto sent out our snowplows to help bail you out. A lot of American electricity comes from Canada. And our troops, as well as those of some other countries, were in the field with you in Afghanistan. We didn't come with you to Iraq because YOU WENT TOO FAR.

Anyway, I couldn't write much more than that without repeating myself. My views on America and the war on Iraq in general can be found earlier in this thread, but here's a link for those who don't want to search it out:
http://forums.winamp.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=953911#post953911

Anyway, that's just my 2 cents (1 cent American)

[zootm]

zeph, your posts smack of contradiction, poor research and general ignorance. if you're going to defend your country, don't be an idiot. that doesn't help.

[Zeph]

Yeah, OK. I'll listen to a "fan" of Noam Chomsky. To you, everything i say to defend this country would be full of contradiction and ignorance. If you would bother to research before making comments you would know that i am not the ignorant one.

[zootm]

hmm.

how about this.

i researched.

i don't hate america.

i think it's ok. it has problems, what country doesn't?

you, however, are doing a very backwards job of defending your country. you're making it seem worse.

arguments like yours are the reason people hate america.

just. give. up.




also: on the noam chomsky note, i don't consider myself a "fan" - i do consider the quote in my signature something so obvious that it needed to be pointed out. i believe that to be ironic, and i thought the quote was quite poignant.

[ShyShy]

ok, my rant was mainly directed to the philippine govt.


and yes, i'm half filippino, and after living there, i'm so glad to be an american.

[zootm]

my flatmate (and long-time friend) is half filippino. his family over here supports a lot of people over there. it's not a great place to be... :(

their government will tend to downplay the actions of the US, and other people who give aid, for the simple reason that they want and need more. i think they believe that by downplaying what they do get, they might force the people of the US to make their govt give more. this won't, of course, happen, but it could be their hope. also simply playing to the common dislike of people who are better off will keep them on good grounds with their citizens - another reason they'd do that kind of thing.

and what would gratitude get them? nothing.

i hate politics like that.

[ShyShy]

i was going to quoute you... but hey, posting right after you works just fine... :D



Thanks zootm, for understanding so well what my rant was about. when i read abot the stupid things that govt does, i go into denial mode about that part of my hereitage. wrong, i know, but sometimes that country can be so shameful.:hang:

[theworm]

dear zeph,

how do I start? Well, for one I admire your passion, being proud of your country is not a bad thing. Yes be proud that your an American, born and bred, america has done some mighty fine things over it's lifetime, and like every other country it's done some pretty shocking stuff as well.

Well that's about all I admire or respect in you. Sorry to say that, every other person on this forum, I've respected their intelligence and their opinion, despite whether I agree or disagree with their polictics. You unfortanely fall under the catergory of "not worth the time or the effort" (ironic how long I've spent on this post)

I'm sorry you feel scared right now, but basic animal instinct dictates that animals only really attack if they're scared or hungrey. I get the feeling that if your weren't so scared your posts wouldn't be quite so aggressive. Or are you really hungrey?

I can't actually remember what this forum started off about (does it matter anymore), but I've always maintained that I have nothing against Americans. Hence I get annoyed as being labelled anti-american when I try to enter into any debate on this subject.

So you don't align yourself with any particular polictical group, so do you vote? I like to think you do, but I'm guessing not. If you do then good, if not well... come back here later when your of age to do so.

Your 'anti-world' views (rants) don't help your case. In fact I'm not sure if your posts have been purely satirical or entirely serious. I've heard some intelligent views on the War on Iraq (for both sides), yet I doubt you've done any serious throught on the issue at all.

So pray to your god,
and keep close your hand gun,
Osama's still out there,
and Saddam on the run,
it's an orange alert,
are you stocked with duct tape,
with dubya to prtotect you,
is america still being raped?

-the worm
"badly rhyming since 1987"

[Nimelennar]

*Applauds*

[Zeph]

"but basic animal instinct dictates that animals only really attack if they're scared or hungrey"
Nice try at trying to generalize. But you even know that is wrong. I'm really sick (and bored) of seeing posts like yours. Do you even know one thing about people in the U.S. No you don't. What you label debate does not appear to be that at all.

"..yet I doubt you've done any serious throught on the issue at all."
And you have? Only from the outside looking in.

What you are saying is the same old "points" i always see from those like you. You say you are trying to introduce debate. But it always comes off as looking like you have a handbook telling you what to say when certain viewpoints that you DISRESPECT arise. Or when they mention they are American. Because you know deep down inside you have a bias. It appears in your words you use.


"I'm not sure if your posts have been purely satirical or entirely serious."
Like i have said in other places before, you can be anyone you want on the internet. Thats all i will say about that.

[Nimelennar]

I have nothing against Americans. My grandparents are American. I have many aunts and uncles who live in America. There are a lot of nice Americans. A lot of the Americans I've met on this forum an elsewhere online are very nice people.
The people I don't like are the people who think that just because America has nuclear weapons, a large military force, and a really high GDP, that they're better than the rest of the world, that they have the right to decide what's best for the rest of the world, against the consultations of the committee that's been chosen to make those decisions.
The people I don't like are the people who think that just because they were born in America, that somehow their place of birth makes them better than other people.
The people I don't like are the people who flame people who are just stating their opinions, who don't take the time to read their arguments, who just blatantly assume that because I dislike a few Americans, I hate them all.
I grant everyone a certain amount of respect. If I get flamed for this, that person is just going to lose some of that respect. Whether that means anything to them, I don't know. But I do know that it will take a lot for me to take anything that person says seriously again.

[zootm]

Originally posted by Zeph
I'm really sick (and bored) of seeing posts like yours. Do you even know one thing about people in the U.S. No you don't.
that would appear to make two of you.

[Fickle]

Zeph, quit the shit and become a communist. It should make everybody happy.

It's strange how people who are for the US seem to become very arrogant ans biting (me included). Maybe it's because we are violent by nature.

Look. America has it's problems. Admit to it. We fuck things up and we hide shit. It's true. We do it to our selves. Hell, we still don't even know who killed JFK, because it's too dark and conspiratorial for the government to have people prying and looking into.
But. The US is accused of a lot of stuff that is slanted and distorted, just like propaganda against the English (which I'm sure arose, but just wasn't shouted as loud as the Anti-US sentiment. Would anybody feel good about having thier country bashed by someone out of it? Hell no.
I happen to like it here, not for the government, but because I believe things can change for the better, and I like living near the shore and having my family near me.

Zootm, man you're too cool for words. You're welcome to my place any time. I'll even give you a beer. I won't pay air fare, but a walk on the original boardwalk will pay for itself.

[ShyShy]

and thank you fickle for adding some realism to this thread, i for one am getting weary of ALL the bashing. maybe time for everyone to take a break. and zoot is cool as always.

[zootm]

i'm being praised, but i don't know why. could be time for the sunglasses smiley.

yes, i think it is :cool:

[ShyShy]

zoot, you've had perfect timing with the third person perspective, which i think acts like the bucket of cold water thrown onto our hot tempers. so accept the praise...

[zootm]

...wasn't fishing for compliments there, but thank you.

[theworm]

I guess I don't know anything about living in the US. Yes I am an outsider looking in, does that make my views any less valid? It probably makes them even more valid. Truth be told, did every one miss the little point I made about actually liking Americans and the US. Of course I have a bias against America, I'm proud of where I live, I'm not going to ditch my national pride just to say America is the greatest. Just because I have that bias doesn't mean I hate the USA and everything in it, no. Does that make my country perfect? No, I know where I live is just as messed up in some ways as the US, I know it's problems, I try to help those problems when I can. I don't ignore them and pretend like I'm living in some little wonderland.

It's obvious I don't know what it's like to live America. You've proven that(all of you:)).

-theworm
"now where did I place my copy of "how to hate the US in 5 easy steps"?":)

peace

[Zeph]

"Of course I have a bias against America, I'm proud of where I live, I'm not going to ditch my national pride just to say America is the greatest."
When an American says this, they are considered being arrogant. Even by their own, such as Fickle.
In my eyes there is a difference between arrogant and defensive when the image of your country is pissed on and ripped apart every day.
No U.S. citizen i have ever spoken to has EVER said their country is perfect.

[ShyShy]

Originally posted by theworm


-theworm
"now where did I place my copy of "how to hate the US in 5 easy steps"?":)

peace



LOL:D , i liked that

[Fickle]

To be honest, you cannot judge a country fairly when you've never been there. I've never been to Any of Europe, so it's all pretty level to me. But there are people out there who hate america when they don't even know what it's like here. They assume they know because they read the newspapers or watch the news or read an American Author. Take a walk in my shoes, and you can tell me how rotten I (or any american) is, but until you can say you've lived in America, held a job, scraped for cash, drank our whiskey, eat our food, actually live here for awhile, then you can tell me how rotten I am.
But something tells me you won't be able to do that. Just like I wouldn't be able to do the same thing to your country.
So let's all go out in the middle of the Atlantic and have a Kodak moment, okay?

[zootm]

i've never been to america. i have met many americans, i know many people who know americans and have been to america, and so on and so forth - i base my opinions upon that. americans are not bad people, any more than anywhere else. a lot of the time they seem disproportionately proud, and a lot of them equate "partriotism" with "unquestioning idiotic loyalism" - but the majority are fine. the fact people talk ill of them in particular so often is their government's attempts to govern the world. some people simply have to realise that they aren't always right. that's all it'll take.

[theworm]

Zeph, maybe I was wrong about you. Yes your absolutely right, there is a difference between arrogrance and national pride. But first impressions are real easy to make, and your big intro into this forum was way too aggressive.

Fickle, again another person on point today, of course you can't judge a country fairly looking in from the outside, but remember that society has never placed much conviction in judging fairly:) my shoes are probably the same as yours, just standing on a different piece of land.

Does it have to be the atlantic? The pacific's so much warmer, I'll bring the camera, it's a little bit old but still works ok, can bring some film (I'm flat broke) and if anyone has a tripod, bring that as well.:)

-theworm
"entertaining shyshy since yesterday"

[ShyShy]

Originally posted by theworm

Does it have to be the atlantic? The pacific's so much warmer, I'll bring the camera, it's a little bit old but still works ok, can bring some film (I'm flat broke) and if anyone has a tripod, bring that as well.:)

-theworm
"entertaining shyshy since yesterday"

i'm with theworm, pacific is a whole lot nicer for the group pic, and i've got the hook up with the film (courtesy of the US Army). so, someone has to bring the tripod.

and thanks for the entertainment;)

[Nimelennar]

I'll admit, I haven't gone that many places into the US... and only one place recently. When I was younger, I went to L.A. once, to visit my grandparents, I went to Michigan often to see my aunt and uncle, and I went to family reunions in upstate New York.
Those were all quite a while ago, (3 years at least for the family reunion, 6 or 7 at least for the trips to Michigan, 10 at least for the trip to L.A.), so I'm not going to remark on what impression of he U.S. those left on me, because I honestly can't remember.

But in May 2002, I went, on a high school trip, to NYC (The Theatre District of Manhattan). Our tour guides couldn't warn us enough about scams and thieves, and always to stay in groups of at least 3. The streets were filthy. I couldn't walk a block without getting nervous. The lack of plantlife was disgusting. Then again, to get there, we drove through upstate New York, and I found it very beautiful and peaceful. And Central Park was... well it was OK. It wasn't far enoguh away from all that concrete-and-asphault (sp?) prison that was the main city, but it was definitely better.
The moral: Don't visit NYC (j/k)
The real moral: No country, no state, not even a city, is made up of all the same thing. Stereotypes are always bad things, because none of them are accurate, unless they're redundant (like "all killers are killers"). Don't judge. That's up to the judiciary system, and, if you believe in Him, to God. No one else has the right to judge another person, especially by race, creed, sex, age, or nationality.
Now, that being said, can we please cloase this thread? Please?

[Fickle]

I know what you mean about NYC, but the Theatre district isn't the best place. But I'll venture to say that most cities have that part of them, the part that makes you wonder why the hell you took the time to get there, if it was this dirty. I've had the same feelings in Philadelphia, Atlantic City, Anchorage, Boston, etc. They' aren't the cleanest places. As I've said many times before, I can take you places where You'd never think it was the same continent, neverthe less the same country or state for that matter.

Oh, and the Atlantic 'Cause it's closer to me, and I figured closer to the Europeans. But, uh okay, who's paying my airfare?

[Silent Sniper]

Hmmm, how can one add input to such a volatile subject without getting shot down in flames?

Naturally, I'll have to speak as a UK resident. (Though I am technically French.)

As a long-time UK resident, I have acquired the formal and rigid stance shared my many UKers.

In truth, I both dislike and admire the Americans. I admire their liberal attitude towards a great many subjects. I admire their passion towards their country. (See below.) I admire their overall lust for life.

I dislike their "Our country is so big, you can't touch us" attitude. It seems childish at best and akin to the "My Dad is bigger than your Dad " argument, I used to hear at junior school.

I dislike their "price of everything and value of nothing" attitude.

I dislike (really means don't understand) their sense of humour. :)

Sorry, of course, I am generalising. How can I not? But it's just my quick shot at adding input to a very wide and complex subject.

[DragonSon]

Alright, first off, you seem like you judge us based on an attitude that is NOT widely held in our country. Not all Americans (Myself included) think that we are untouchable. I believe September 11 proved that.

Secondly, we as a whole value a lot of various things. Do not judge us based on our politicians, whom for the most part, are in it for the oil. Rather, judge us on the people who live here, work here, and die here. We work hard for what we have, and we value so much.
We value our freedom, which we are lucky to say the least we have, we value life, and so much more it would be pointless to list.

Lastly, our sense of humor leaves something to be desired, I know that, but you have to get used to it to understand it. I myself do not get some of the jokes spread around here, but I also don't get some of that dry, British humor, I guess it's just your location.

[Silent Sniper]

Originally posted by DragonSon
Secondly, we as a whole value a lot of various things. Do not judge us based on our politicians...

Understood. As I stated, there was a huge dose of generalisation from me. I can only go by my own perception of what I see, hear and read, etc.

[DragonSon]

Originally posted by Silent Sniper
Understood. As I stated, there was a huge dose of generalisation from me. I can only go by my own perception of what I see, hear and read, etc.


Yes, I understand. But you shouldn't always believe what you see hear and read. Sometimes they are fabricated in such a way as to make America look bad.

[zootm]

Originally posted by DragonSon
Yes, I understand. But you shouldn't always believe what you see hear and read. Sometimes they are fabricated in such a way as to make America look bad.
sometimes they're fabricated to make america look good, too. it works both ways.

[DragonSon]

And you're saying other countries don't make fabrications to make THEM look good?

[DracoVulpine]

The US has good points and bad points, just like every other country. The US is not the source of all that is good, neither is it the source of all evil in the world.

I've seen our government do things that made me proud to be an American. I've seen things that made me cringe.

I refuse to be one of those that automatically believes there is a secret plot behind every government move...but I also refuse to blindly follow everything they say and keep my wits about me for if they are discovered.

I do not believe that our way of life is the best or what everyone should follow and have. Does that mean I don't like it? Not at all...but some areas just ARE NOT READY or DON'T WANT to do what we do. I accept that and would let them live as they wish, personally.

I am an American...I was born here and raised here. Right now, the powers that be make me cringe with what they're doing (two wars, one still ongoing, despite the supposed victory, economy going down the gutter, jobs all going overseas, a congress pushing for an Amendment that would be a great source of discrimination against a large segment of the population, monopolies getting slaps on the wrists and told to play nice or not being noticed at all) and I look forward to the next election day when there will be a change (Hopefully...and hopefully for the better).

We need to step back and look at what's happening, fellow Americans. Blindly charging forward and going 'America rocks, America is great, America can do no wrong and cannot be stopped' is what got us where we are to begin with. Companies striving to make every bit of profit they can are the reason most of our courts are clogged with lawsuits and our jobs are disappering. Even the US government has given the Unions a cold shoulder on their proposed new way of handling how overtime is figured.

America is great...but it can be greater...and it needs people to wake up and stop blindly following our elected leaders and start doing something for change before we end up NOT being great.

My 2 cents+ for any that care to read.

[DragonSon]

Originally posted by DracoVulpine
The US has good points and bad points, just like every other country.




Yes, but it seems to me that these days, that we are the only country being persecuted for our bad points.

[DracoVulpine]

Originally posted by DragonSon
Yes, but it seems to me that these days, that we are the only country being persecuted for our bad points.

Ahhhh...right now, yes. Primarily because of the government we have at present and the policy of 'this is what we're going to do...we don't care what you think'.

This was a president that just told terrorist groups and such to 'Bring it on' after all. His publicists and speech writers had to be cringing when he came up with that jewel. ;)

Granted, though, it's not all Bush. We have built up a history of sticking our nose, dollar, and military power where it really doesn't belong. Some presidents were worse than others.

On another note, ever notice how one moment, countries of the world can be complaining about our interference in areas...yet the next moment, ask us to step in and do something about a problem in that same area? Ever wonder why our government doesn't just say 'No...all you do is complain about how we interfere...deal with this one yourself'?

[ShyShy]

Originally posted by DracoVulpine
Ever wonder why our government doesn't just say 'No...all you do is complain about how we interfere...deal with this one yourself'?


at times i wish our government would just say that, but then it would turn around on us and most of the international community would then say we're being cold hearted, and blah,blah,blah. "damned if we don't, damned if we do".

[DragonSon]

Originally posted by ShyShy
"damned if we don't, damned if we do".



I believe I pointed that fact out previously. Although I have always heard/seen it as 'Damned if we do, Damned if we don't.'

[ShyShy]

Originally posted by DragonSon
I believe I pointed that fact out previously. Although I have always heard/seen it as 'Damned if we do, Damned if we don't.'


:p

[DragonSon]

You know I love ya honey.

[Fickle]

It's true, we will always be hounded, whether we help people or fuck them royally up the wazoo. All I can say is that I still like my country and the rights our forefathers gave us (those few which are still around), and I will wave my flag proudly as a part of the United States of America, as you would the UK or France or wherever you may reside. I may not support what it does all the time, but I support the idea that started it.

[Mattress]

Originally posted by Fickle
I still like my country and the rights our forefathers gave us (those few which are still around)
I haven't noticed, which one's have we lost?

[DragonSon]

I wonder the exact same thing...

[Fickle]

Privacy ring a bell?

How about the right to property? The US government can move into your property to build a service of the masses. Such as, a road. And they only have to give you a percentage of the properties worth. Some places, not even that.

The right to have wars declared by Congress.

The Right to print money. The Federal Researve is not Federal by any means. It is a private company that makes money for 3.5 cents and then charges the full amount of the bill. It is government funded because the gov't buys the money, that's it.

The right to have a militia. One most people agree with, now that we have federal armies.

States rights to increase Tariffs.

I've got a bunch of them. Want more?

[DragonSon]

Originally posted by Fickle
Privacy ring a bell?





Strange...I feel private enough right now. And if you bring up the fact that they have satellites that can look through walls, I don't have anything to hide, so they can look at me all they want...and if they want to watch while I make sweet love to my fiance, well....more power to them.

[Fickle]

Strange, having the right to bash down your door if they catch you saying something "odd" in any context...
Or maybe the simple fact that they teach your kids to rat you out if you smoke pot or something. That's unreal.. Hitler used these tactics.

[Mattress]

Hitler made people's kids rat them out for smoking pot?

That asshole.

[Fickle]

No Hitler taught in schools and in government programs to tell the teacher or an authority figure (like a cop) if thier parents spoke against Hitler, had Jewish friends, or did not follow the laws.

Makes me think of D.A.R.E., while under the guise of teaching kids to stay away from HARMFUL DRUGS LIKE MARIJUANA but ignoring hardcore drugs like Smack and Meth, and teaching the kids to tell someone if thier parents were doing it. It's a Hitler tactic.

[Rehpot]

Are ya'll talkign about Hitler Youth?

I saw videos of that where he had like a bunch of 10 year old kids (And i mean like 100) all playing war.

Except they were actually beating the shit out of each other. it shows peopel being carried off upside down all bloodied up and knocked out and shit.

I think these were the peopel that turned into his SS or his Concentration Camp peopel or wahtever. He did this to them so they woudl be desensitized to violence at a very young age yada yada yada he was a madman.

[Mattress]

I never went through DARE, I thought that was like a punishment if you got caught being a juvinile delinquint or something.

anyway, DARE and hitler youth are a lot different, for example, there is absolutely nothing wrong with being friends with a jew or speaking against your government. However there are enormous problems linked to drug usage. Hell if my parent's were on drugs I'd turn them in, I want quality parents, I wouldn't want to be raised by hippies.

When Peter the Great was twelve he built a fortress and manned it with kids and then had another army of kids storm it. Something like 20 kids got killed. That Hitler thing just reminded me of that.

[Fickle]

I believe in laws of privacy, and government funded teachings that teach kids to turn in thier parents, as far as I can see, sucks the big hairy one.

I have a hippie parent for a father, and yes, it does indeed suck. And he does smoke pot. I never 'moked with him, but it does undermine his authority, and I believe you should respect your parents.
A thought just occured to me; in abusive situations, where people are being hurt in any fashion is different than drugs. In said case, it should be reported if there is abuse of any fashion. The question is where to draw the line.
Yes, hippie parents suck to a certain degree, but abusive parents are a different matter. It's a grey area, but what laws do we have that aren't grey in some degree. Nothing is cut and dry, people always find a weakness in a wall.

[oNaMiSsIo]

speaking of hitler youth, did you know that there was a countermovement started in america and is stil going strong? its called Boys' State. i went there a few weeks ago, its supposed to look really good for college now, but damn if they dont try to brainwash you still.

[Fickle]

what did they try and teach you...? Boy's State? Never heard of it.

[oNaMiSsIo]

its really quite harmless now, they teach you about your state's politics and government, but its still hardcore conservative, seeing as how its run by the american legion.

i said they tried to brainwash us because we had to march information everywhere, endlessly sing 'the boys' state song' (i still know all the words and its been almost month) and we got very little sleep.

[spiderbaby1958]

I'll give you a great example of what I love about Amerca. After 9/11, there may have been a few yahoos on talk radio and in forums like this spouting hate, and some pretty dumb incidents like the idiot who famously shot a sikh thinking he was killing a muslim. The day of his sentencing, btw, this moron brought a small American flag to court which he displayed, making us all proud.

But mostly, I think we were pretty cool. The mosques did not burn, and I think there are places in the world where that would have happened. I'm thinking of recent relgious riots in India, for example.

I believe that people are basically good, and want to be good, and when free to do so, will find the way to their own best understanding of goodness more often than they won't. America is not an evil place, nor is it intrinsically a good place. It's simply a place where good is free to struggle with evil... and wins more often than not, though the victory sometimes takes decades or centuries. It can never be anything else-- at least until Jesus Christ comes back to rule, or until we take Plato's advice and appoint a philosopher king. A democracy reflects the *******- and we are all sinners, even as we are all touched with the divine.

We create this democracy. America is our mother, but we are the founding fathers and mothers of the nation that America will be one day. If a parent thinks his child can do no wrong, what sort of child is he likely to have? If a parent is unwilling to discipline a child because he doesn't want to "be the bad guy" is that a good parent? A good parent has to be critical and tough sometimes, or the child will become a kind of monster. Most of us know and understand that love demands this.

So why is it that to love our country involves an abdication of this responsibility? During the recent conflict I held my peace as best I could. Some of my fellow citizens chose differently, but I felt their pain. This wasn't like the Vietnam era, where dissent seemed like a big party much of the time. After 9/11, the violence and the possible consequences were a lot more real. We were frightened and challenged as never before.

It was hard to disagree. It was pure anguish and depression. But we took the responsibility-- out of pure love.

It doesn't mean we were right. It means that we cared.

And it doesn't mean that we love America more than you do. It means that we paid a higher price for our love. I think that disagreeing with this war has brought me a deeper appreciation of the soldier's sacrifce than agreeing with the last one (in Afghanistan) ever did.

NOTE: This post was inspired by something I read toward the beginning of this long thread, so when it appears at the end, I'm sure it will seem appropos of nothing at all. My apologies.

[Fickle]

Originally posted by oNaMiSsIo
its really quite harmless now, they teach you about your state's politics and government, but its still hardcore conservative, seeing as how its run by the american legion.

i said they tried to brainwash us because we had to march information everywhere, endlessly sing 'the boys' state song' (i still know all the words and its been almost month) and we got very little sleep.

Sounds like an amped up Boy Scouts.

There was a church near me where they took kids camping and stuff, but they'd teach them these weird twisted things about how people like me were going to go to hell because we didn't go to church enough, and didn't give enough money, etc. Two weeks later they sent me an invite to save my soul and go with them on a camping trip. I burned the invite and mailed them the ashes.

[oNaMiSsIo]

Originally posted by Fickle
Sounds like an amped up Boy Scouts.

i never thought of it that way before, but... yeah. boy scouts.. with dorms.

the best part was it was at Libery University, home of the one, the only... Jerry Falwell! Religious Wacko Extraordinare! it was pretty funny, because this ultraconservative christian dude founds a university and names its sports team... "The Flames". :D no joke :D

[Fickle]

My favorite part of the 9 11 response was the bandwagon patriotism. Nobody cared before, but then al of a sudden, hail, America!
"Wave my flag! Put it on my car! Fly it on my house. All of a sudden, I love my country, but I used to bitch about it constantly."

Or the people who said that we asked for it, that we deserved it. That if we had kept our nose out of people's business we would still be thousands of people plus.
The government "suggested that radio stations not play" (read: banned) A lot of music, from Rage Against the Machine to the Sex Pistols, as if the Sex Pistols are ever on the fucking radio.
Then it was "Hey! It was Osama!" So we go in and beat the fuck out of his country. We helped a shitload of people, and people cheered. Oorah! We got the motherfuck.
Then we get on Iraqs ass, cause why? Cause the CIA and the US military told Bush that Iraq supplied Al-Queada with weapons, and may have WMD.
So Bush jumped in, and then all of a sudden, he was hated. He was hated because he trusted his military men. He is hated because he was wrong about stuff.
And then all of a sudden, people from other countries start making like thier leading a revolution against the oppressive Americans. Lots of people took all this in and believed it, with out even realising that certain countries stood to lose if the US freed Iraq from Saddam. France, for instance, bought oil from Iraq, and bought the oil with planes. The Iraqis fought us with a French Air Force.
And Germany built thier military buildings, as well as supplying them with cash.
So who's to decide which side is right?

[Janus Lunar]

Wold a mod please lock this thread?
It's getting out of hand.

[zootm]

http://www.superinsane.com/images/bandwagon_patriot.gif
sorry, had to.

[spiderbaby1958]

OMG!!! Really?? The Flames?!? Shit, I wish I could Make up stuff like that!

[Fickle]

Originally posted by zootm
http://www.superinsane.com/images/bandwagon_patriot.gif
sorry, had to.

I have this picture somewhere.

Ooh, looky. There it is.
I love bandwagon patriotism, despite the people who practice it being exactly what a lot of people think we all are.

[zootm]

yeah, i've seen it before. i have to admit i googled for it for the post though. one of the better satirical jokes i've seen though.

[theworm]

FAQ's

Q: How can one go about joining up with "Bandwagon"tm?

Q: Can I join by either phone, fax, internet or email?

Q: What is the "Bandwagon"tm privacy policy?

Q: Is the offer open to people outside the U.S?

---theworm
"insert smiley face right about here>> :)"

[Fickle]

Dear TheWorm,
What the hell are you talking about?
.
Sincerely,
Fickle

[theworm]

dear mr fickle,

it's a bandwagon, hence for it to be a bandwagon, you must be able to hop (read: join) on the bandwagon, if I'm not allowed to hop on the bandwagon, then it's not really a bandwagon now is it.

I've probably confused you even more now:), don't worry yourself to much with it, I was just being silly.

---theworm
"excusing my poor behaviour" (and running out of semi-witty sigs to end with)

[Mattress]

Originally posted by theworm
if I'm not allowed to hop on the bandwagon, then it's not really a bandwagon now is it.


Are you in the band?

[Fickle]

Originally posted by theworm
dear mr fickle,

it's a bandwagon, hence for it to be a bandwagon, you must be able to hop (read: join) on the bandwagon, if I'm not allowed to hop on the bandwagon, then it's not really a bandwagon now is it.

I've probably confused you even more now:), don't worry yourself to much with it, I was just being silly.

---theworm
"excusing my poor behaviour" (and running out of semi-witty sigs to end with)

If you're talking about cliques (as a general, vague term), you are on the bandwagon that is not part of the bandwagon. Therefore, you are not bandwagonesque, while being a part of a bandwagon.

Get all that? Me either.
Please use English when you type, I get confused when gibberish is administered to my Ocular Orifices.

[theworm]

So your stating that because I'm on one bandwagon already, I can't possibly join this bandwagon. Seems a little unfair too me, oh well give me a few days I'll get over it :cry:

Gibberish isn't actually a treatment (http://www.revoptom.com/handbook/hbhome.htm) for ocular disease's.:) Might want to speak to your doctor again.



Please use English when you type

my spelling isn't that bad is it? :)

-theworm
"play on words #2345: Don't be so fickle, fickle"

[Fickle]

no, I'm just saying that being part of the crowd not on the bandwagon is being on the "not on a bandwagon" bandwagon.

I hope you didn't think I was being serious.
Get all that? Me either.
I'm being as unserious as possible.
And no, your spelling isn't that bad, but it was late at night and my mind got stuck.

[theworm]

I got the not being serious part, I was just playing along:) this thread has no meaning anymore, I'm just having a bit of fun (I assume your doing the same).

---theworm
"enjoying the same popularity in the US as Tony Blair"

[Fickle]

sounds good