Html, XML, XSL? [Archive]

zootm

3rd October 2003, 13:48

Originally posted by Timzone8
Yeh, usually when people don't know XML they also don't know what it is...i think you contradicted yourself twice in the on sentence! j/k :rolleyes:
heh, i was drunk. i'm impressed i managed to type!

but XML is very basic. it's just a little set of rules. it's also a data representation language, rather than a markup language, so comparing it to HTML isn't really fair. XHTML is just a version of HTML that follows the XML rules.

ertmann|CPH

3rd October 2003, 14:44

knowing xml and not xsl is rather pointless isn't it?

UpperKEES

3rd October 2003, 14:48

Originally posted by mike_aitch
If he had put CSS, there would be 25 choices on the poll! That's why they offer multiple choice when creating a poll... :p

UK

Mike H.

3rd October 2003, 16:16

The polls themselves are multiple choice, but you can only choose one!

A few notes about the XML debate:
XHTML is technically not HTML, but practically it is. It is a reformulation of HTML elements in XML. In fact, if you write an XHTML document, but leave out the DTD, a browser will interpret it as HTML 4.0 and will have no problem reading it.

Timzone8

4th October 2003, 01:29

XML!=XHTML
Xml is soo easy to use, and you should probably integrate it into html or use some sort of stylesheet for it... :rolleyes:
This isn't a debate over XML is better than HTML, because they aren't alike, i just want to see how many Winamp Users actually know XML Html etc
Because there seems to be a shortage of skin making, probably because of Winamp5 coming out, but is there a chance that it's just a lack of xml skills?
FYI: i haven't made a Winamp3 skin because my graphic design skills suck!

ryan

4th October 2003, 01:37

The polls themselves are multiple choice, but you can only choose one!

What he meant was, you can check a box when creating the poll, to allow for more than one answer per person.

Timzone8

4th October 2003, 01:44

I didn't allow multiple choice in the way that you could vote more than once, i made more options available to get a more accurate result.
If you were to quick to click and just clicked the first one you saw, then...

griffinn

4th October 2003, 04:41

Originally posted by Timzone8
XML!=XHTML
Xml is soo easy to use, and you should probably integrate it into htmlOh god...

XHTML is HTML reformulated into XML. If this is not "integrate XML into HTML" I don't know what you have in mind.

XML is a generalised data structuring syntax. By itself it's not terribly useful. You need a meaningful document type definition to specify the type of data you want to represent in XML.<?xml version="1.0" encoding="ISO-8859-1"?>
<!DOCTYPE sometag [
<!ELEMENT sometag (#PCDATA)>
]>
<sometag>
meh
</sometag>If you can write this, you know XML. (I guess this is why zootm said everybody knows XML.) But is it useful? Hell no.

Timzone8

4th October 2003, 04:49

It is useful! I use it for my news and menu parts of http://www.portal3.net and http://www.timzone8.com (both under construction) and there's no way that i can be fked typing out <br>'s and <p>'s and <font class="safasf">'s all the time!
So i can use xml as a database....

AND IM NO TALING ABOUT XHTML, I'm talking about X.M.L. with XSL

anubis2003

4th October 2003, 05:07

HTML and XML.

Timzone8

4th October 2003, 05:15

Originally posted by anubis2003
HTML and XML.

So...you know html and xml? or are you just starting the whole xhtml=xml+html?:mad:

caitcid

4th October 2003, 05:53

I only heard of HTML..the other languages....I never heard of them until now..

anubis2003

4th October 2003, 05:57

Originally posted by Timzone8
So...you know html and xml? or are you just starting the whole xhtml=xml+html?:mad:

I know both. I don't know that much XML - just touched on it. I know a good 10-15 languages of all sort(although I don't really consider these to be languages, but whatever). The main languages I know are C++, TI BASIC(83 and 89), PHP, and SQL

whiteflip

4th October 2003, 06:09

You can learn XML in like 4 seconds. Its nothing. It does nothing. Making stuff that does something with it is the tricky part.

HTML XML XSL CSS JS

anubis2003

4th October 2003, 06:11

/me agrees to whiteflip.

scripting languages are nothing. It takes something like JS or PHP to really do something.

Timzone8

4th October 2003, 06:15

RE:anubis2003 sweet' u know 8xBasic aswell!

~XML isn't the only language on the poll!
does anyone know XSL? I found it a bit tricky to learn, but the rules are simple to follow :rolleyes:

anubis2003

4th October 2003, 06:15

I haven't heard of XSL... I'll have to look it up sometime

Timzone8

4th October 2003, 06:28

XSL=Extensive Stylesheet Language (i think?)
It's really good to use with xml, because you can load ie, demo.xml and if you refer to the XSL stylesheet it will display the XML in another format, usually like Html, depending on what you do with the XSL...:weird:

shabaviz55

4th October 2003, 07:41

I know html, But, I heard something about xml.

Timzone8

4th October 2003, 07:49

:D ok then... i spose it's gettin late over there, cos it is here, 6pm :rolleyes:

zootm

4th October 2003, 12:36

Originally posted by griffinn
If you can write this, you know XML. (I guess this is why zootm said everybody knows XML.) But is it useful? Hell no.
it's useful as a data representation language. a unified format which can be easily adapted to store many types of data eases the writing of parses and increases portability of formats. it may seem to lack in efficiency, but that's becoming more and more of a moot point, considering the power of computers and the types of data that XML is suitable for the storage of.

a lot of people spot that XML looks like HTML, and assume that XML is designed for writing webpages - this is not so. XML coupled with XSL or CSS could provide a way of showing data in a webpage-style way, but it's not really a hugely useful one (in my opinion), especially with SQL being widespread. that's not to say it has no place in the future, you just have to remember that XML is designed for representing the content on webpages, not the design of them. HTML is trying to make this separation a bit more these days, but it's never gonna be exactly the same.

Timzone8

5th October 2003, 02:01

I find that by using XML for my websites, I can just edit that single file like a database... But with free ISP hosting I can't expect much from them, I have CGI available and that's all, so I just use XML.
It's also good to organise data on a page, although I haven't been able to make drop down menu's to select a certain part of the XML file to display, ne ideas?

griffinn

5th October 2003, 02:28

When XML Query (http://www.w3.org/XML/Query) is implemented by browsers, you'll be able to traverse XML trees without any server-side scripting. For that you'll have to wait... and wait... and wait... Or you can use JavaScript to manipulate HTML <div> visibility to achieve the same, but then you said you wanna move away from HTML so bleah Or use PHP's DOM-XML (http://www.php.net/manual/en/ref.domxml.php) functions to parse XML files. Then you can select certain subtrees and style them with the Sablotron XSLT (http://www.php.net/manual/en/ref.xslt.php) functions, or traverse them manually and write HTML output etc.

Timzone8

5th October 2003, 02:40

tnx, i just couldn't find that on w3 before :rolleyes:

Timzone8

5th October 2003, 02:48

I couldn't find any examples using 'drop down menu's' to select data to display,ne?

S-uper_T-oast

5th October 2003, 03:13

HTML and XML. I have a good knowladge (or had) or HTML. I haven't used it in a while since I stopped working on my website. XML is just something I picked up from watching my freind make stuff on his computer. I am wokring on learning JAVA right now, it is really annoying...

Timzone8

5th October 2003, 03:32

Originally posted by Timzone8
I couldn't find any examples using 'drop down menu's' to select data to display,ne?
???

ctn|chrisw

5th October 2003, 05:46

Originally posted by Timzone8
???
I think people can see the post 2 posts up you dont need to quote yourself with "???".

Timzone8

5th October 2003, 06:11

This way it goes bold':rolleyes:

s0be

5th October 2003, 08:06

ASL

s0be

Timzone8

5th October 2003, 09:21

pm...

Timzone8

5th October 2003, 11:27

how many programming languages are there?
i know of, html, xml, xsl, xhtml, dhtml, jhtml, xls, css, java, javascript...ne more?:weird:

griffinn

5th October 2003, 11:42

Christ, this kid is funneh.

Lots of programs in different languages doing the same thing (http://www2.latech.edu/~acm/HelloWorld.shtml)

Timzone8

5th October 2003, 11:46

yus!:D

whiteflip

7th October 2003, 09:04

I don't see how CSS can format xml well enough to be used for webpages but then again I don't know all the new CSS and I don't know how to implement it in XML.

whiteflip

7th October 2003, 09:08

sorry i posted in the wrong thread again. :rolleyes: (someone delete this post.)

ctn|chrisw

7th October 2003, 10:01

Originally posted by s0be
ASL

s0be

3/f/Turkey
u want cyber????

Timzone8

7th October 2003, 10:07

lmao' suure!:D

RE:css for xml, I refer css from xsl from xml...so I use xsl for xml and css just to make things easier.:rolleyes:

CraigF

7th October 2003, 15:43

griffinn, i have to agree.

Timzone8, your sites are, frankly, shite. You store your data in XML yes, but you are assuming the the user is hitting the site with a browser that has its own XML engine. Great, IE has it. but have you ever heard of serverside processing?

If your host is able to provide access to COM, you get to use MSXML, that'll let you serve up plain html, and people wont end up sat around waiting for your site to render. Pretty much works exactly the same as the way you are doing it now, since you are already using msxml via IE.

Of course, maybe microsoft isnt your thing, but php provides all you need via sabletron, never really had much luck with it, but they there are a few alternative XSLT libraries that you can use with it, infact, there is one packaged up with it now.

XML was never ever meant to be used as a "database" as you so call it. It was created as a unified way of sharing data. I suppose you could argue that you are sharing it, but in the real world where business applications apply, people store data in a real database, then query those databases and return XML, which then gets formatted with XSLT on the server level and rendered to HTML which all browsers are happy to display.

Its all about maximizing your market.

Timzone8

9th October 2003, 07:26

RE:CraigF,
Firstly, FU!
My sites are underconstruction, the ones I actually put effort into aren't going to be put on the web, just my school's network.
They're underconstruction because they were originally deleted of the server at one stage, and I had no backup, so I couldn't really be fked making them again. I'm just addin bits and pieces when I want. And as for cross-browser compatability, pfft' i could give a fk, if I wanted to have it compatible I'd probably make it all in html and follow w3's guidelines, NO.
My server is limited with file handeling, it doesn't host databases or PHP. So no i'm not going to learn PHP any time soon, atleast not while ALL the services I'm using are free. Including Registrar,DNS and Fileserver(or whateva you want to call it).
XML might not have been made for databases, but it's not restricted to do otherwise.

Viper007Bond

9th October 2003, 08:45

PHP 'tis easy to learn. After two days of messing around in it, I can now code in it. :p

Anyway, I know PHP, HTML and CSS.

Timzone8

9th October 2003, 09:08

It never occured to me to learn PHP because i'd never use it, i don't have a virtual server that will let me run it for Free!

Gonzotek

9th October 2003, 12:32

You've got a windows pc of your own?
PHPTriad (http://sourceforge.net/projects/phptriad)
PhpTriad is a windows installer for MySQL, PHP, and Apache. All the free php and mysql hosting you could want.

You'd want to learn it as soon as possible if you have any interest in going into "the business", if you know what I mean. Even if you don't, it's kinda fun to play with ;) ;)

-=Gonzotek=-

CraigF

9th October 2003, 12:41

if he has interests in going into the business, he better change his attitude else he aint gonna get nowhere

Viper007Bond

9th October 2003, 12:56

Originally posted by Gonzotek
You've got a windows pc of your own?
PHPTriad (http://sourceforge.net/projects/phptriad)
PhpTriad is a windows installer for MySQL, PHP, and Apache. All the free php and mysql hosting you could want.

You'd want to learn it as soon as possible if you have any interest in going into "the business", if you know what I mean. Even if you don't, it's kinda fun to play with ;) ;)

-=Gonzotek=-
Another one that I just installed today:

http://www.firepages.com.au/

Timzone8

10th October 2003, 07:50

PHP is not the only way to making web sites, i'm sure there'll be a far better code in a few years time, and until then I don't plan on basing my sites around php. Moreso to the point: "my *virtual* host doesn't let my use php" <-- Virtual! it's not here beside me, it's probably in some building far far away!

CraigF

10th October 2003, 09:09

you get what you pay for. and since you pay nothing. you get nothing.

Timzone8

10th October 2003, 09:20

RE:CraigF
wtf' so a domainname, dns, host, is nothing':weird: no'

CraigF

10th October 2003, 09:53

technically, what you have is dns supplemented by your isp subscription charges (they still have to pay costs to the registrar) and configuration to point this at your 10mb of free webspace provided by your isp (again supplemented by your isp charges). obviously, by taking up value added services with your isp, its entirely possible that you get better hosting services, but in your instance, it appears that you dont.

but hey, whatever floats your boat. I prefer my internet access sans freebies, at lower cost, and look for services i need from more appropriate providers.