Building A Computer....Help :)

[d0rk]

Alright, I decided to start looking for hardware and such for a nice gaming system. My Step-Dad and I priced out some hardware and right now its at $2,789.00 USD and I havn't included a moniter yet. So what I am asking is if you wonderful people can help me get it down some without losing the precouis speed for games and general use.

Heres what I got for hardware so far:

Case: Wave Master TAC-TO1 by Wave Master $148
Power Suply: Enermax $84
Proccesor AMD Athlon 64 FX51 $799
Mother Board: Gigabyte $230
RAM: Corsair PC2300 512mb Pair $147
Dont need to include cables
3 case fans
Video Card: ATI 9800XT $480 (putting this at the 9600 for around $250 instead)
Hard Drive: 2 Western Digital Raptor 36GB $122 each
Also having a CD/DVD Rom
And XP for $93 if I purchase atleast 1 piece of hardware off where we priced it.


I wanna stick with the Athlon 64 FX51 for the FSB unless there is something better. Any suggestion?

[morgado]

Not a changing, but an advice ...
Dont buy those CD/CD-R/DVD all-togheter because it really sucks ... try to buy separately !!

[SSJ4 Gogitta]

You realise you can shave $100 bux off by getting a standard case, and for $122, you can get a 160 GB hard drive.

[morgado]

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Agreed with that !! :up:

[DJHotIce]

heck ssj4 I got my hard drive for roughly $90 and it's a 80 giger.

[old and quite mad]

Originally posted by morgado
Not a changing, but an advice ...
Dont buy those CD/CD-R/DVD all-togheter because it really sucks ... try to buy separately !!

Pray, what do you base this insightful opinion on? To my (very direct) knowledge, combo drives have no greater fail-rate than any other similarly constructed drives.

[DJHotIce]

now seems like a good time to bring in the all wise Atmo.

[morgado]

Answering to someone ...
First, u can't copy directly cds ...
Second thing, If your recording an CD, and want to listen to other in other drive, u cant do it ...
and third, if having everything-togheter stuff was really good, Tv's with vcrs togheter would be a damn success ...
No more words ...
Mouse, have you thought of it ?:

[mikeflca]

I know its not exactly about keeping the cost down, but it is important: make sure u have enough fans in your computer, 3 case fans might not be enough..(I need about 5:( ).

And about the fx51......yes, its a great processor and all that, it has 64-bit processing, great for gaming, yata-yata.....but 64-bit support in O/S is not very widespread, and until that becomes a little more common, you can only reap some of the benefits of having a 64-bit processor. In fact, if you wait and get the fx-53 when it comes out, there might be more support for 64-bit by that time.

and you should be able to get the same amount of faster RAM for the same amount or less....$150 for a gig of...was it 2300?( maybe you ment 3200...?)... sounds a bit expensive. esp. considering there is at least 3600 by now.

[Namelessv1]

Originally posted by d0rk

Hard Drive: 2 Western Digital Raptor 36GB $122 each
10000 rpm, by any chance?

[DJHotIce]

Originally posted by Dawg4Life2K1
10000 rpm, by any chance? Yea that brings up the biggest comment of em all. Make sure you can get a good rpm becuase the faster your rpm's the faster your hardrive spends (doh!) which in turn means your files should load quicker :)

[SSJ4 Gogitta]

may be 10krpm, but imho, the price isnt worth it. 7200 RPM is nice as it is.

[mikeflca]

www.anandtech.com has some interesting comparisons of processors, vid cards and more, maybe you want to check it out.... (http://www.anandtech.com)

mods plz dont count that as advertising, im only trying to help.... :confused:

[DJHotIce]

I dunno I allways visit www.tigerdirect.com for my computer needs.

[J_Bloggs]

Compare parts and prices from a range of places, if need be buy from several different places to get the best value. Depending of course on whether it does work out cheaper to pay a bit more in order to get XP on special (and hence have a lower total cost). (thats my opinion on spending money in genral, as far as specificly computer parts and especially in america, I really don't know.)

[d0rk]

I understand I could shave off $100 on the case but that was voted the best case by Maxiumum PC and I wanted a case mod. Image of it can be found here http://www.coolermasterusa.com/PRODUCT.ASPX?ID=56
As for the FX 51, I know I wont gain a huge avantage for program use but I love the FSB on it.

[mikeflca]

Anandtech.com (http://ww.Anandtech.com) has many more in-depth tests to show you what is really better rather than just being a retailer

[J_Bloggs]

(if your going to be fussy it's going to cost you,)
/me butts out

[SSJ4 Gogitta]

That case looks rather poor, imo, very bland. This case is much, MUCH cooler looking than that, and cheaper at 120 bux on sale:

http://www.circotech.com/yhst-1568194807313/thskxalllvms.html

Cheaper still, and STILL better looking:

http://www.circotech.com/yhst-1568194807313/ccaqtekmedco.html

[Namelessv1]

Originally posted by SSJ4 Gogitta
may be 10krpm, but imho, the price isnt worth it. 7200 RPM is nice as it is.

Yeah, especially for only a 36 gb hd. I see where it would really come into play with the much larger drives, but they really haven't reached that point yet.

[mikeflca]

Considering that one main concern is ventilation (and obviously keeping the temp down), the one d0rk chose and your first one didnt look that bad.

*Although the cost is horrendous*

As for the second one you suggested Gogitta, that one looks a lot like mine:D in fact, except for the lights and extra stuff like that, it is.
*And I HATE it*
Besides, about how good it looks....the idea here is that d0rk will spend more time looking at the screen than looking at the design of the case(it is a gaming computer, after all)...

[tjb2004]

That case doesn't look that sweet man. I got a kick ass case from Color Cases (http://www.colorcases.com/cases.htm) and it was really cheap. Check them out.

[zetafunction]

Instead of the 36GB Raptors, you could buy the 74GB Raptors instead...

Yes, they are expensive, but they *are* nice drives. I'm not entirely sure if the premium is completely worth it... but among other things, they have a 5-year warranty... Seagates are also nice.

I wouldn't go for a 64-bit processor. You're not likely to see any huge performance gains from it right now, just because no apps are really able to take advantage of it. And you're paying quite a premium for it too... as an alternative, the Athlon's with the Barton cores are nice, as are the Intel P4's with HT (for both, you could just go for a version with a lower clockspeed, and just overclock it, to save more money. The AMD Athlon Barton 2200, 2600, something has shown great potential for overclocking, as has the P4C 2.4/2.6).

If you only want one drive, I'd recommend the Plextor 708A (I think).

For the video card, the 9800 XT is currently tremendously overpriced. It's not worth $500, or even $480. Maybe just go for a plain old 9800 or even a 9700, which is still a very solid card. Or... a 9500 which you can softmod =P

Also, you mean PC3200 RAM, not PC2300 ram, right?

[mikeflca]

Originally posted by zetafunction
Maybe just go for a plain old 9800 or even a 9700, which is still a very solid card.

thats the way to go....id say 9700 XT is best bang for the buck, so to speak. And about the (it must have been 3200) RAM.....is it dual channel?

[Atmo]

Remember that if you want to run an FX51 you'll need registered memory. ;)

Also, for gaming performance the video card is more of a factor than processor speed.

Personally, i wouldnt bother getting an A64 yet. While they are faster than the Athlon XP's, the extra cost just isnt justified. A barton 2500+ will clock to 2.2ghz (3200+) without much hassle at all, and can go further with good cooling.

[Starbucks]

Don't blow $799 on a new CPU just yet. Let that "newness factor" go away first, and let the price drop. Or get an AMD athlon 64 3200+, its cheaper ( currently $250) and you dont need expensive ECC memory./

[zetafunction]

Originally posted by mikeflca
thats the way to go....id say 9700 XT is best bang for the buck, so to speak. And about the (it must have been 3200) RAM.....is it dual channel?

Err, you mean Pro, not XT? =)

There's no 9700 XT... at least, not that I've seen.

[dlinkwit27]

/me tries to help :p
overstock.com might be able to help you get a pretty cheap monitors (http://www.overstock.com/cgi-bin/d2.cgi?SEC_IID=813&PAGE=CATLIST&PRO_SUB_CAT=410&PRO_SSUB_CAT=999) or mice and keyboards (http://www.overstock.com/cgi-bin/d2.cgi?SEC_IID=813&PAGE=CATLIST&PRO_SUB_CAT=272&PRO_SSUB_CAT=999)

[k_rock923]

i'm in agreement with a couple people here. don't bother with the 64bit processor yet. its waaaay too expensive. cut down on the processor and upgrade on the memory. maybe even get a mobo that supports that new pc4200 ram. now that would be cool

[d0rk]

Thats for the help guys. Keep the suggestings coming :)

[zetafunction]

Originally posted by k_rock923
i'm in agreement with a couple people here. don't bother with the 64bit processor yet. its waaaay too expensive. cut down on the processor and upgrade on the memory. maybe even get a mobo that supports that new pc4200 ram. now that would be cool

The problem with DDR RAM that's higher clocked is the very lax memory timings that it gives. Something like 3-4-4-8 is fairly typical. I'd rather go for PC3200 or 3500 RAM and be able to get 2-2-2-5 timings on my memory.

Two other nice places for computer stuff:
www.zipzoomfly.com and www.newegg.com

[Atmo]

Originally posted by zetafunction
The problem with DDR RAM that's higher clocked is the very lax memory timings that it gives. Something like 3-4-4-8 is fairly typical. I'd rather go for PC3200 or 3500 RAM and be able to get 2-2-2-5 timings on my memory.


The (small) drop in performance due to slackened timings is made up by the increase in frequency though. That's of course only if you run the ram that fast, people that buy pc4000 and run it at 1:1 on a 200mhz fsb have wasted their money.

I'm running pc3200 (corsair XMS3200C2) which has stock timings of 2-3-3-6@400mhz (can do 2-2-2-6) but I run it at 2.5-3-3-7@440mhz (1:1 at 220fsb) with 2.7v for every day use. In every test i've thrown at it, it's been faster at the higher frequency and slacker timings.

P.s. 1:1 on a 220fsb is still leaving a fairly large margin for error, it can run at 460mhz with those timings - http://forums.tweakers.com.au/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9922

[d0rk]

I forgot to mention, I doubt I will be doing any overclocking. I've never messed with it and I dont wanna fry my first real computer.

[zetafunction]

Tom's Hardware also just did a nice case review (http://www.tomshardware.com/howto/20031217/index.html).

[mikeflca]

Originally posted by zetafunction
Err, you mean Pro, not XT? =)

There's no 9700 XT... at least, not that I've seen.

oops.

[Starbucks]

If you're not going to be doing any overclocking then dont bother buying Corsair XMS. There's no point in buying "good" ram if you aren't going to OC. Get corsiar value ram instead, or a compatable generic.

[morgado]

Ow, I was reading the last adds ... and, as it's a gamimg pc, be really worried with the fans ...
I mean, I have only simple 1 dan in my computer ...
I've been working with very high temperatures ..
My pc:

Motherboard Asus A7S333
Athlon XP 2400+ 2GHz
256Mb RAM 333 MHz
GeForce 4 64Mb
HD 80GB 7200 RPM

well, it's not that good, but for my country, and my money, it's the best i can have ...
But the temperatures ....

[ujay]

Is there any way you can add an extra fan morgado, they're very cheap.

UJ

[morgado]

Very cheap in USD.
The ones "Made in Brazil" aren't worth buying, and so I'm waiting xmas and my bday to make some improvements here ...
What fan would be fine UJ ?
Also I'm thinking of one more 256MB RAM ...

[ujay]

You'll need somewhere to fit it in the sides or back of your case(complete with outlet holes or grill), do you have that? The usual sort of fan is 80mm square and 25mm deep.
As you have an ASUS board there will almost certainly be somewhere to plug it in. If not, make sure it comes with an ATX adaptor, this is just a connecting wire with the right plugs to fit a spare 12V line on your Power Supply.

Watch out you don't overload the power supply adding extra fans and RAM
Atmo can probably advise on that.

UJ

[Atmo]

An average 80mm case fan wont tax a psu too much, since they only draw about 2 watts max (some use even less). Ram doesnt draw a lot of power either, so unless your psu is already under a heavy strain, adding some ram and a few case fans isnt likely to cause any problems.

The best setup for a 2 fan system is one intake at the front of the case, and one exhaust at the rear. Most cases will provide somewhere to mount fans in those locations. Some cases provide more, and if you feel that your system would benefit from some additional airflow, feel free to use them all.

If your case doesnt have any additional fan mounts, then your going to have to cut a hole yourself. If you're going to do that, you may as well fit a 120mm fan (as a chimney in the top of the case for example), since they move a lot more air for a given noise level than an 80mm fan. Just remember to remove everything from the case before you start cutting anything...Pc components and metal shavings dont mix well.

[ujay]

I've often wondered what draws the most power Atmo.
Would it be things like extra disk drives, graphics cards, CPU, the things that get hottest ??

UJ

[james]

Definitely hot stuff. CPU and graphics card, probably. The new P4s probably draw close to 100 watts. That's as much as a large lightbulb, and when the voltage is only say 1.5v, you're looking at 60 amps plus. That's a fuckload of current, and power dissipation is proportional to the SQUARE of the current. IE it gets bloody hot.
Also, graphics cards are needing auxiliary power connections now, a sure sign of drawing shitloads of power. Hard disks, yeah, especially at spinup, and the same for CD/DVD etc.

[Atmo]

james is right.

A cpu can draw 50-100 watts, a modern video card around 40-60, the motherboard and ram will can use about 20-30, 15-20 watts per hard drive and optical drive (at spinup, less once they're spinning)...

Of course they dont all draw full power all the time, which is why a (quality) 300-350w psu is usually enough for most systems.

[k_rock923]

what site is this offer for $93 dollars XP on? i still need some parts for my new system and i don't have the OS yet

[ujay]

Thanks james and atmo, that's reassuring in my case.

UJ

[BMWboy]

Originally posted by Atmo
james is right.

A cpu can draw 50-100 watts, a modern video card around 40-60, the motherboard and ram will can use about 20-30, 15-20 watts per hard drive and optical drive (at spinup, less once they're spinning)...

Of course they dont all draw full power all the time, which is why a (quality) 300-350w psu is usually enough for most systems.


using those numbers, I get a max of ~470 watts for my machine, which is just short of my 500w(550w peak) PSU
CPUs 2x100=200
3 HDD 3x20=60+200 =260
2 optical drives 2x20=40+260=300
2 ram sticks 2x30=60+300=360
mobo 30+360=390
video card 60+390=450
fans 2x10=20+450=470

so I guess as long as I don't max everything at once, I'll be just fine.

[Atmo]

I meant the motherboard and ram will draw 20-30 watts total, not 20-30 watts for the mobo and 20-30 watts per stick of ram...so cut 60 watts of your total and you're at about 410 watts (max).

However, i seriously doubt your cpu's would draw 100 watts each at full load (they're MP2800+'s right?).

[m0e]

Originally posted by k_rock923
what site is this offer for $93 dollars XP on? i still need some parts for my new system and i don't have the OS yet

Newegg (http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?DEPA=6&submit=Go&description=microsoft%2Cwindows%2Cxp) is one I know of. It is actually cheaper than that today.

[dlinkwit27]

Originally posted by m0e
Newegg (http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?DEPA=6&submit=Go&description=microsoft%2Cwindows%2Cxp) is one I know of. It is actually cheaper than that today.

25$! wow!

[J_Bloggs]

theres ms plus! for xp on that pages, for $28.
XP on that page however is $91 for home edition, not $25.

[BMWboy]

Originally posted by Atmo
I meant the motherboard and ram will draw 20-30 watts total, not 20-30 watts for the mobo and 20-30 watts per stick of ram...so cut 60 watts of your total and you're at about 410 watts (max).

However, i seriously doubt your cpu's would draw 100 watts each at full load (they're MP2800+'s right?).

correct, but they are OC'ed from 2.13GHz up to 2.2GHz. even so, I was merely caculating the worst case possible.

[DJ Killer]

I got some re3commendation on this... but here is my suggestions...

1. Stay with 64-bit
many people complain that 64-bit is not worth it. Regardless of price, you are talking a horendously large speed increase on your computer. Intel has screwed the computer world over by keeping us in 32-bit world for so long. When i have done tests, it has taken a 64-bit AMD 10 seconds to boot Versus a 32-bit AMD at the same clock speed, 47 seconds.

2. Large sums of memory
The more memory the better. Look into higher companies suck as PNY, Corsair, and Smart Modular for memory. They are the best companies (conclusive testing done by myself)

3. Dump WD - Gain Seagate.
Western Digital may be cheap for the moment, but the replacement cost and time time to "potentially" recover data yourself is too costly. Western Digital is a subsidiary of Seagate. Seagate by far makes the best Hard Drives and the fastest. I have had seagates last 12 years (600 MB mind you) and others still ticking. I have not had a wd last more than 2 years and a maxtor 3.

4. Invest in a computer with SATA NATIVE
64-bit computing with a SATA bus provides alot faster response time and makes your whole computing experience unfrickinbelievable. During my Testing In less than 1 minute i transferred a 1 GB file to one SATA to another. Thats alot better than 3- 4 minutes with IDE/133 (4x speed increase).

No matter how you see it, 64bit is a wise investment. The most critical of parts is your CPU, HD and Memory and i have given you my professional, tested advise. Many may have had different experiences, but unless they utilize maximum output of this equipment 24/7 they will never relize the limitations of 32bit vs 64.

[Atmo]

Originally posted by DJ Killer
I got some re3commendation on this... but here is my suggestions...

1. Stay with 64-bit
many people complain that 64-bit is not worth it. Regardless of price, you are talking a horendously large speed increase on your computer. Intel has screwed the computer world over by keeping us in 32-bit world for so long. When i have done tests, it has taken a 64-bit AMD 10 seconds to boot Versus a 32-bit AMD at the same clock speed, 47 seconds.

That's testing with both running a 32 bit OS and the exact same hardware (other than cpu and motherboard of course)?

If so, that's complete bulls**t. An AMD 64 bit cpu is roughly 10% faster than a 32 bit AMD cpu for a given clockspeed, and that's just due to it's architechture being more efficient.

2. Large sums of memory
The more memory the better. Look into higher companies suck as PNY, Corsair, and Smart Modular for memory. They are the best companies (conclusive testing done by myself)


How many gamers do you know that need more than 4gb of ram (the max allowed with the 32 bit architechture)? Unless you go and buy 2+gb sticks (hella expensive), you cant put more than 4gb on a current 64 bit board anyway...

3. Dump WD - Gain Seagate.
Western Digital may be cheap for the moment, but the replacement cost and time time to "potentially" recover data yourself is too costly. Western Digital is a subsidiary of Seagate. Seagate by far makes the best Hard Drives and the fastest. I have had seagates last 12 years (600 MB mind you) and others still ticking. I have not had a wd last more than 2 years and a maxtor 3.


Firstly, to the best of my knowledge, western digital are not a subsidiary of seagate. If you can show me proof, i'll believe you.

As for how long your drives have lasted, it's more or less based on luck. Sure, manufacturers produce a lemon from time to time, but for the most part it really doesnt matter which manufacturer you choose, you still have to backup often just in case.

By the way, i do like seagate. I run 4 seagate drives in my main box, and also run seagate drives in my folding rig and mp3 box. Those particular drives have been reliable so far. But i also run 3 other rigs, one with a maxtor, one with a wd one with a quantum and they're all happy running 24/7.

4. Invest in a computer with SATA NATIVE
64-bit computing with a SATA bus provides alot faster response time and makes your whole computing experience unfrickinbelievable. During my Testing In less than 1 minute i transferred a 1 GB file to one SATA to another. Thats alot better than 3- 4 minutes with IDE/133 (4x speed increase).
:confused:

SATA's current maximum transfer speed is 150MB/s compared to ATA133's 133MB/s. Unless you were using multiple 10,000rpm SATA drives in a RAID0 array (and at the moment only WD make 10,000rpm SATA drives), compared to a single ATA133 drive (and only maxtor make ATA133 drives) i dont see how you got a 4x speed increase.

In my testing, i've found SATA makes virtually no performance difference with 7200rpm drives. Yes, i run a 320gb SATA RAID0 array, but that's just because my board has an onboard SATA controller and i needed the extra space.

What did you use and how did you run those hard drive tests?

[Starbucks]

I was about to say that DJ Killer has absofuckinglutely no idea what he's talking about, but Atmo got there before me. 2. Large sums of memory
The more memory the better. Look into higher companies suck as PNY, Corsair, and Smart Modular for memory. They are the best companies (conclusive testing done by myself)Unless you're a photoshop professional, 3d modeler, animator, or CAD engineer working on large data sets yes, more memory is better but the thread starter wont be doing any of that so 512mb sounds good for what he's doing.