Licensing Help

[Mighty_Wolf]

Hiya guys,

I want to start an internet radio station and have been setting everything up. I've even got DJ's lined up, but i've now found out that there is a license that internet radio stations now have to pay?

Basically, my station will run 24 hours per day, with DJ's from all over the world playing at various times through the day, so the UK DJ's will cover the UK daytime, and then the US DJ's will cover the overnight/early morning slots.

We will also be having a few world-famous DJ's playing. I've had a couple already agreeing to do recorded guest sets for the station.

We want to play dance music only but we're not sure what license applies to us because our DJ's are international - and not just from one country, so I'm unsure what country we'd need to get our license from. I'm also unsure how much it costs - can someobody please clear things up a bit for me. The licensing issue seems to be very unclear, and to be honest, not very well advertised.

I want to do everything legally because i'd like to promote the station heavily when its up and running.

Thanks everyone :up:

[Mike H.]

There is no governing board for the Internet, so there are no licenses required to run an audio stream (aka an Internet "radio station").

[Mighty_Wolf]

Are you sure? Apparently if we use licensed/copyright protected music, then we have to pay for the license because they then pay 'royalties' to the artists out of the license money?

I'm confused. I don't want to not get a license, really promote the station hard, and then find out that the station is going to have to shut down because we haven't got a license, or even worse, go to court :down:

[Psythik]

Unless you have a shitload of bandwidth and can manage to get 100,000+ people listening in on your stream at any given moment, the government's not going to even bother coming after you. Your dreaming way too big buddy. Technically, paying those fees will be an overkill (and they cost way too much anyhow) and not even worth your while unless, like I said, plan on having a shitload of people tune in your station every day.

[MegaRock]

Licenses to stream data IS necessary. In the US there are ASCAP, BMI, SESAC and SoundExchange. In the UK there is the PRS. Most other countries have their own royalty collection arms but most developed countries have some organization for this.

It is however not a 'license' to broadcast much like an FCC license for transmitted radio stations (FM, AM) but is instead a contract to pay royalties to the performers organizations and the record labels for using their copyrighted works.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FWE/is_2_7/ai_98167558

[Psythik]

But like I said, the chances of you being caught in this huge digital world is 1,000,000:1. Millions of people out there run streams every day (SHOUTcast is mostly a huge list of 'em) and never in their lifetime will be caught. Don't bother with fees unless some government agency sends you a letter asking you to pay the fees. But like Mike said, there is no governing board for the internet, so just chill and don't worry about it.

[Mike H.]

If you intend to promote the station, and you think you will have a lot of listeners, and you play copyrighted music, then it may be worthwhile to get the licenses from ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC. But as MegaRock said, it's not a broadcasting license. You can play non-copyrighted music without any licenses.

[Mighty_Wolf]

Well all of our music is signed by labels, but we'll be aiming to cater for 100 listeners maximum at a time - possibly 200, but certainly no more than that.

I've heard of PRS - that was the name that was mentioned to me when licensing was suggested to me originally.

[squall14716]

Just get a server from Russia. Problem solved.

[Mike H.]

If only 200 people are going to know about the site, you can probably get away with not getting a license.

[Mighty_Wolf]

What happens should anyone pster us about a license though (PRS, etc) - would they close the station down, or take me to court, or even make me pay hundreds of pounds in royalties?

[Mike H.]

They would force you to get the license and probably try to make you pay owed royalties.

[CraigF]

I'll give you a word of advice. dont listen to anyone above except MegaRock. You DO need to pay, or you MAY get sued.

I've moved it to shoutcast discussions rather than general. there are far more people better educated on this matter.

[DJ Killer]

Correct. And Listener counts DO NOT matter. They will hit you no matter What. You have Several Agencies in the US alone who collect royalties and it is the same way in the United Kingdom.

The thought that unless you have 10,000 listeners is ignorant. The truth is they will find you, the question is when.

You have These Agencies in the US:

SESAC - $2,000 per 6 months
SoundExchange - $2,600 per 6 months
ASCAP - $2,600 per 6 months
BMI - $2,600 per 6 months
Harry Fox Agency - $2,000 per 6 months

No matter where your server is, they will still hit you for it as well, especially being based out of the United Kingdom. They don't care where the server is, thats where the bulk of the signal is coming from.

[Mighty_Wolf]

Thanks for the advice guys.

I actually phoned PRS today - the UK royalty company, and they've told me it'll cost a staggering £2400 per year regardless of whether I have 1 listener, or 1 billion listeners.

To which I vented my anger. I told him that it was absolutely impossible to find that amount of cash and he said that it had basically killed internet radio.

So thats the end of it for me - no internet radio station :down:

I'm pretty angry about the whole thing actually :mad:

[DJ Killer]

Welcome to the Record Industry's anti-competitive practices.

Its not that bad in the UK, only $2,400? Hell im paying $12,000 per 6 months....

[Mighty_Wolf]

No, 2400 UK pounds - which works out to about what your paying.

Its a scam. I bet the artists don't even see any of the bloody money :mad:

[DJ Killer]

Well they see the money, after the licensing agency takes 40% for administrative fees.. .which leaves 60% left, and then the artists typically have agents who deal with this, because they lie to artists who are ignorant and say they could never handle it, so they take 50% of whats left, giving the band effectively 30% of what you paid, thats if the record company doesen't take it first.

[Jay]

You know you aren't required to get licensed through any of these agencies right? If you have a problem with the way these agencies work, you are free to go around them and go directly to the copyright holder and pay them or get their permission. Also remember that there is a difference between copyright holder and a performing artist.

[Mighty_Wolf]

Yeah, i had thought about that to be honest, but the problem is, there are so many record labels we'd have to contact, it'd be a nightmare. There's probably hundreds i'd have to contact :eek:

[DJ Killer]

heh, hey im doing it, its not that hard, just takes time because you have to prove your worth to some of them, they dont want to be giving rights away all willy-nilly.

[CraigF]

worth noting that the uk fees are FAR better than the US fees, one of the reasons why last.fm is rockin it out right now.

I bet one or two american streamers are really wishing they were located elsewhere right about now.

[Baby Boy 06]

SESAC - $2,000 per 6 months
SoundExchange - $2,600 per 6 months
ASCAP - $2,600 per 6 months
BMI - $2,600 per 6 months
Harry Fox Agency - $2,000 per 6 months

What is the differences between each one? Also, if we pay this, does that mean we can download songs and have rights to them since the royalties are paid or is it like, royalties only pay for playing the song but we still have to purchase an artist's CD to play the one song?

[leo_c]

Seeking permission directly from the copyright holder is the only way to go. If you take the time to ask, most labels/artists will not only give you permission for free, they'll even start sending you promo copies of their stuff.

Worth the effort if you're prepared to put in the work.


Leo

[Indiear]

If you play copyrighted material under US law you indeed do have to be licensed through proforming rights organizations and Sound Exchange unless you get written permission from all the individuals who have copyrights to the content you are going to play which is time consuming and hard to do. Obtaining these licenses on your own is cost prohibitive in the neighborhood of $2500 to $5000 a year. However there are now licensing co-ops such as Loud City which greatly reduce these costs. You can basically become licensed with the oragnizations you need licensing for starting around $40 a month. With a Loud City Pro package you can still be listed on Shoutcast and AudioRealm. Loud City does all the reporting for you! I highly suggest you check them out at www.loudcity.net

I'm not saying you have to join but in regards to being caught. When we first started broadcasting BMI came a knocking, there generally the fist to do so and if anyone can remember back to the formation of Sound Exchange and CARP SOMA FM got fined abd taken off the air for a while. Some on here may say being licensed is overkill but why allow your hard work to vanish at the hands of the PRO's(Performing Right Organizations) and Sound Exchange (The RIAA) who do from time to time take stations to court and shut them down.

[dotme]

- Beaten by Indiear :)
I type too slowly in the mornings. Anyway, yeah... what he said.