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sputnik radio
2nd November 2006, 16:59
Hey I got a question.

Att just installed some fiber optic cables to my house yesterday. I went out there and asked them what they where doing and they told me that they where hookin everything up with fiber optics that they where going to be offering Digital Television , phone and internet service all over the fiber optics.

He said the connection speed would be around 15mbps . My question is could I host a nice little SC server off that connection speed? And how many listenres you reckon i could handle at say 96kbps adequately?

Also will I have to buy a new higher speed ethernet card or something?

Im thinking about having a server running out of my house and a server that is remotely hosted that i currently use that also provides me with licensing as long as I have the stream launch off their address.

Anyway anyone who would like to throw me a bone I would greatly appreciate it.

FraggleRADIO
2nd November 2006, 21:05
Hi Sputnik,

To calculate how many slots you can host on that speed connection check out this great tool from Radio toolbox.

http://www.radiotoolbox.com/online_tools/bandwidth.php

But before you start broadcasting, find out what your upstream rate is on the connection.. That's the number you'll need to enter into the bandwidth calculator above.

Generally, i've found that most home internet connections have a high download, but still only a low upload speed.

Upload speed is what you need to run a shoutcast station.

Hope this helps

Davey

fc*uk
2nd November 2006, 21:06
damn man.

OK.... a nic from the early/mid 90's probably kranks around 100M (it is called a 10/100 card --- compatable on both 10M and 100M networks). If you have a recent computer (post 2000) you probably have what they call gig-aethernet. You guessed it. That runs at 1000M.

So, if you got better than a 10M card you are dope.

Secondly, I am sure the connection speed is going to be 15M sounds completely reasonable to me --- FOR A DOWNSTREAM. Getting 15M upstream is like having 10 T1's running into your house, and aint no one giving that for a reasonable price. All these companies like att are going to cap your upstream because they do not want you to run a server. Who wouldn't run a server if they had a symmetrical 15M line???

These questions are really more computer questions and have nothing to do with SHOUTcast really. Take networking 101....

FS-Randy
2nd November 2006, 21:51
Here in MD Verizon offers FiOS fiber which starts at 5/2 (downstream/upstream megs) and tops out at 30/5. So even with 30Mbps of download speed, you get 5 Mbps of upload speed. Still pretty good if you ask me.

sputnik radio
3rd November 2006, 00:39
hmmm he did not say wheter the 15 m would ber up or down. I assume its going to be syncronous.

I know that TXU is about to offer BPL with 10mbps syncrounous here by the end of the year as well.

I think all these companies are going to have to eventually just let go of the whole capping your bandwith idea. The technology is catching up to where it would be pointless to continue doing that anylonger.

fc*uk
3rd November 2006, 02:43
5M down is good indeed.... however it still is not 15M.

I dunno, you fellas might be right. I just can't see it. If you got that much upstream in your sack and everyone has it, it would put an end to hosting, etc. Seems like too many people got their hands in this pot to ever see a significant change .... very much like oil and cars.

sputnik radio
3rd November 2006, 12:35
Originally posted by fc*uk
5M down is good indeed.... however it still is not 15M.

I dunno, you fellas might be right. I just can't see it. If you got that much upstream in your sack and everyone has it, it would put an end to hosting, etc. Seems like too many people got their hands in this pot to ever see a significant change .... very much like oil and cars.

Well I think it's like when 8 megs of ram used to cost 200 dollars.

remember those days? I do.

I think within the next 10 years people will be reminicing about the old days when bandwith was expensive.

They cant hold back the future forever.

Jay
3rd November 2006, 17:24
As wonderful as this all sounds I am just not seeing this as a cheap solution. I have been keeping my eye on FIOS for years and it has still not completely rolled out. However that is what you are seeing, just another competitor to FIOS. They will utilize it to do a tiered pricing model and I promise it won't be symmetrical.

sputnik radio
3rd November 2006, 17:29
The BPL will: http://broadbandoverpowerlines.blogspot.com/2006/10/txu-electric-delivery-and-landisgyr.htmlAs wonderful as this all sounds I am just not seeing this as a cheap solution. I have been keeping my eye on FIOS for years and it has still not completely rolled out. However that is what you are seeing, just another competitor to FIOS. They will utilize it to do a tiered pricing model and I promise it won't be symmetrical.

fc*uk
3rd November 2006, 20:59
Originally posted by sputnik radio
The BPL will....

Last time I looked into this, there were still some serious problems with this technology. Mainly the quality of the wiring in one's house and the limited distance that the signal could be carried over.

However, I think this would be an amazing way to go... if the technology behind the idea catches up to make it something more reliable (like I said, last I knew it was even behind sat internet for reliability)...

Have things recently changed with this technology?

FS-Randy
3rd November 2006, 22:29
I've been using FiOS for about 4 months now and I must say it is the best net connection I've had aside from sitting with my laptop in the datacenter with a patch cord running to the server cabinet =). Hopefully they start rolling it out in more areas soon.

And I agree with KXRM, the lines will most definately NOT be syncronous.

fc*uk
3rd November 2006, 22:55
I agree, those speeds are nice, but that is some bank at the same time.... course I would guess that Verizon makes you have a phone line through them.

Screw bundeled services. I hate the telcos. I want a fast line with no phone, just skype.

1 more year with SBC = WOW and skype.

sputnik radio
3rd November 2006, 23:32
Originally posted by fc*uk
Last time I looked into this, there were still some serious problems with this technology. Mainly the quality of the wiring in one's house and the limited distance that the signal could be carried over.

However, I think this would be an amazing way to go... if the technology behind the idea catches up to make it something more reliable (like I said, last I knew it was even behind sat internet for reliability)...

Have things recently changed with this technology?

from what i read it seems that US lines can only handle a handfull of users where Europe is more outfitted for this because they can support more people on one transformer than the US can without losing signal strenght or somthing to measure. In Dallas TXU is buying up like 400thousand brand new top of the line cutting edge meters to run this stuff and I assume they are attempting to put the most current technology into it. As far as reliability Im not too concerned. Im willing to sacafice a few hours of downtime now and then as long as im getting 10mbps syncrounous.

hackerdork
3rd November 2006, 23:54
Just read your ISP TOS (terms of service) you would be surprise when your 15MB connection has a nice note in the TOS that you can run server(s). check with the ISP.

~ D

FS-Randy
4th November 2006, 01:45
Originally posted by fc*uk
I agree, those speeds are nice, but that is some bank at the same time.... course I would guess that Verizon makes you have a phone line through them.

Screw bundeled services. I hate the telcos. I want a fast line with no phone, just skype.

1 more year with SBC = WOW and skype.

With FiOS you don't need a phone line. In fact, we cancelled the land line and switched completely to Vonage after installing the fiber. $34.95 for 2 Mbps upstream and 5 Mbps downstream (including first month free, free setup, and free D-link wireless G router). Might be looking into FiOS TV soon, as the advertised price seems to be close to half that of Comcast.

The connection is quite stable...pings are sooo nice:

C:\Documents and Settings\root>ping tess.fast-serv.com

Pinging tess.fast-serv.com [209.9.238.5] with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 209.9.238.5: bytes=32 time=6ms TTL=56
Reply from 209.9.238.5: bytes=32 time=6ms TTL=56
Reply from 209.9.238.5: bytes=32 time=6ms TTL=56
Reply from 209.9.238.5: bytes=32 time=6ms TTL=56

Ping statistics for 209.9.238.5:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 6ms, Maximum = 6ms, Average = 6ms

dotme
4th November 2006, 03:59
6ms? Wow. From a "residential" service, that is just phenomenal. I'm still stuck with DSL for now...lol

fc*uk
4th November 2006, 14:23
that is nice and I gotta agree with dotme. 6ms form a residential service... holy huhu.

Faster than what I got now (about 2x DL/4x UL) and only about 10 dollars more....

They just need to bring the service to where I am.

sputnik radio
4th November 2006, 14:28
Microsoft Windows XP [Version 5.1.2600]
(C) Copyright 1985-2001 Microsoft Corp.

C:\Documents and Settings\Compaq_Owner>ping 209.9.238.5

Pinging 209.9.238.5 with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 209.9.238.5: bytes=32 time=59ms TTL=49
Reply from 209.9.238.5: bytes=32 time=58ms TTL=50
Reply from 209.9.238.5: bytes=32 time=59ms TTL=49
Reply from 209.9.238.5: bytes=32 time=59ms TTL=49

Ping statistics for 209.9.238.5:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 58ms, Maximum = 59ms, Average = 58ms

C:\Documents and Settings\Compaq_Owner>

fc*uk
4th November 2006, 14:42
I fail to see how 59+58+59+59/4 averages to 58 ms. That must be one damn small value of 59....

Who told MS how to do math needs a serious spanking.

sputnik radio
4th November 2006, 16:49
its 58.75 to be exact. so if you round that up it would be 59 i suppose . Not 58. I guess MS rounds down not up

FS-Randy
4th November 2006, 19:11
Originally posted by dotme
6ms? Wow. From a "residential" service, that is just phenomenal. I'm still stuck with DSL for now...lol

I'm pretty close to the datacenter, but even with Comcast the lowest I ever saw was 17-20ms. You can see from the trace there is only 3-4ms of latency between my PC and the primary CO in Baltimore -- and Baltimore is over 30 miles from here. Another great aspect I must praise Verizon on is that there has not been 1 second of downtime since it was installed around 5 months ago.


1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 10.0.0.1
2 4 ms 4 ms 4 ms 10.4.15.2
3 3 ms 4 ms 4 ms P4-0.LCR-02.BLTMMD.verizon-gni.net [130.81.32.238]
4 5 ms 7 ms 7 ms so-6-0-0-0.ASH-PEER-RTR2.verizon-gni.net [130.81.17.177]
5 6 ms 7 ms 7 ms 130.81.15.14
6 6 ms 7 ms 7 ms pulltheplug.tge1-3.ar1.iad1.us.nlayer.net [69.31.30.178]
7 9 ms 7 ms 7 ms ptptech-gw-1.cx.fast-serv.com [209.9.224.66]
8 6 ms 7 ms 7 ms LIN2.ASH.fast-serv.com [209.9.238.5]

http://www.dslreports.com/im/18138270/44270.png

RadioRevolt
5th November 2006, 04:57
hey sputnick im in dallas too! Verizon has Fiber Optic service (FIOS) in Plano TX. I've actually been considering moving there just to get the upload they offer (i think minimum is 1 mb).

retarded me just read everything else. So randy your up is 2mb? dang..... i really need to get Verizon :igor:

FS-Randy
5th November 2006, 13:37
Yes, upstream is advertised as 2mb but I typically get 1.5-1.8Mb which is fine with me.

I ordered Verizon primarily as an alternative to the incredibly poor Comcast service in the area. For years there has been no alternative (too far for DSL), so when FiOS came around I snatched it up. Couldn't be happier.

On average I use close to nothing when it comes to upstream. I do not run servers or Shoutcast off of this line; Therefore, I don't know how anal Verizon will become for those of you who intend to utilize a good portion of the upstream 24/7 by running Shoutcast. I'm fairly certain they have plenty of legal-eze in their ToS which prevents it, so don't be suprised if they come knocking (so to speak).

I would recommend you continue to use the new "rock solid" connection to provide a stable stream to your external relays.

sputnik radio
5th November 2006, 13:39
Originally posted by FS-Randy
Yes, upstream is advertised as 2mb but I typically get 1.5-1.8Mb which is fine with me.

I ordered Verizon primarily as an alternative to the incredibly poor Comcast service in the area. For years there has been no alternative (too far for DSL), so when FiOS came around I snatched it up. Couldn't be happier.

On average I use close to nothing when it comes to upstream. I do not run servers or Shoutcast off of this line; Therefore, I don't know how anal Verizon will become for those of you who intend to utilize a good portion of the upstream 24/7 by running Shoutcast. I'm fairly certain they have plenty of legal-eze in their ToS which prevents it, so don't be suprised if they come knocking (so to speak).

I think if you are paying extra for a business account they probably will not care if you ustilize the full bandwith available to you.

I live just a few miles south of PLANO. DAMMIT

FS-Randy
5th November 2006, 13:41
Originally posted by sputnik radio
I think if you are paying extra for a business account they probably will not care if you ustilize the full bandwith available to you.

I live just a few miles south of PLANO. DAMMIT

True, but unfortunately, business account pricing is not within the casual streamer's budget, and you don't get as much bandwidth...so... =)

sputnik radio
5th November 2006, 13:51
well a busness accountg with verizon , TXU or att with a 5 10 or 15 mbps connection is only like 100 bucks a month.

Still cheaper than buying a dedicated server or paying for rack space.

I recently priced a 20 mbps connection on a rent a rackspace company here in dallas and they wanted 2500 a month for 20mbps

RadioRevolt
5th November 2006, 15:30
us dallas casters need to get together sometime :)

Randy - that is exactly what I want to do with it. I want to be able to do a 360 kbps stream out to my relay and a 32kbps stream for dial-up, which is impossible with TimeWarner.

Sput - I am looking into business service with TimeWarner, Since I moved to the Dallas area my connection has been riddled with problems, they found out im using my connection to stream to a relay server and told me to get a business connection. I have argued with ComCast and TimeWarner that I am not about to pay double for an unstable connection. TimeWarner finally agreed with me and is now leaving me alone and gave me the number of the area guy who dispatches the techs.

sputnik radio
5th November 2006, 16:09
Originally posted by RadioRevolt
us dallas casters need to get together sometime :)

Randy - that is exactly what I want to do with it. I want to be able to do a 360 kbps stream out to my relay and a 32kbps stream for dial-up, which is impossible with TimeWarner.

Sput - I am looking into business service with TimeWarner, Since I moved to the Dallas area my connection has been riddled with problems, they found out im using my connection to stream to a relay server and told me to get a business connection. I have argued with ComCast and TimeWarner that I am not about to pay double for an unstable connection. TimeWarner finally agreed with me and is now leaving me alone and gave me the number of the area guy who dispatches the techs.

Ive been streaming out at 96k with time warner now since they took over and they have never once contacted me about it.

Heres the deal . If a company offers you so much bandiwth in their package. Whats it their damned business what i do with it as long as it's not illegal?

I mean c'mon why the hell would i need bandwith and willing to pay them for it if i cant stream with it?

Jebus h christ they need to get a life.


PS. If you hold out a few more months you might be able to bet BPL with 10 mbps syncrounous. Not sure what their business package will sell for. The company that is going to be handling it for TXU is http://CURRENT.net

sputnik radio
5th November 2006, 19:03
ok im about to dissapear for a while like I always do.

Got some serious stuff in the Real World to sort out.

Just found out I may be moving to austin here in a week or two.


Yall know where to find me.

RadioRevolt
5th November 2006, 21:03
They didn't try and stop me, just tried to pressure me in to the biz packages when I complained that my stream was going in and out.

I have heard of internet over electrical lines, my dad works at a nuc plant in Kansas and they have debated installing this service. When is TXU looking at rolling it out?

FS-Randy
6th November 2006, 03:59
Originally posted by sputnik radio
well a busness accountg with verizon , TXU or att with a 5 10 or 15 mbps connection is only like 100 bucks a month.

Still cheaper than buying a dedicated server or paying for rack space.

I recently priced a 20 mbps connection on a rent a rackspace company here in dallas and they wanted 2500 a month for 20mbps

Should probably look a bit harder... 20Mbps should not be nearly that expensive. Even at $2.00 per slot (our entry level 128kbps rate for SHoutcast hosting) you're at $16.00 per Mbps.

Secondly, you will never see more than 5Mbps from verizon on your upstream for quite some time. Those 5/15/30 rates are download-only. Upstream is either 2Mbps, or 5Mbps.

Thirdly, if you're looking for massive bandwidth, outsource your requirements. Stick with the most reliable DSL/Cable/Fiber service in your area to feed a single stream to that server. Your listeners will thank you.

sputnik radio
6th November 2006, 12:14
Originally posted by FS-Randy
Should probably look a bit harder... 20Mbps should not be nearly that expensive. Even at $2.00 per slot (our entry level 128kbps rate for SHoutcast hosting) you're at $16.00 per Mbps.

Secondly, you will never see more than 5Mbps from verizon on your upstream for quite some time. Those 5/15/30 rates are download-only. Upstream is either 2Mbps, or 5Mbps.

Thirdly, if you're looking for massive bandwidth, outsource your requirements. Stick with the most reliable DSL/Cable/Fiber service in your area to feed a single stream to that server. Your listeners will thank you.

Yeah yeah I know it already. I currently am paying for a relay server through webradioworld.

What Im talking about here is having 2 servers. When TXU gets their 10mbps syncronous connection I will be able to support like 100 slots around 128k maybe. Not sure if my math is right on that but it's close. And plus I would still have my remote server through webradioworld because everything would launch off their adress for legal reasons.

I would just transcode one off the other on my local machine.

as far as you talking about offering 128k beginners package. Im sure your not thinking about someone like me coming in and filling up all 100 slots on the first day and maxing out all the bandiwth you bought in 3 hours.

You can sell 128kbps all day long till your blue in the face but if you cant keep it running at around 10mbps or higher then its pretty much useless to people with 100 or more listenrs.

Alot of these SC host these days sell you these plans and then they cant support your load because they sold you 100 slots thinking you might only use 10 or 20 . I've dealt with this before by several other webhost.

FS-Randy
6th November 2006, 16:28
Originally posted by sputnik radio
as far as you talking about offering 128k beginners package. Im sure your not thinking about someone like me coming in and filling up all 100 slots on the first day and maxing out all the bandiwth you bought in 3 hours.

Not to stray too far off topic, but since you seem to be directing that comment at me, I'd like to clarify. If it wasn't, let me also calrify by saying not all hosts oversell.

The Fast-Serv pricing model was designed around everyone utilizing their full capacities. We've been supporting users who slam their servers 24/7 for 3.5 years now, and it's not going to change. Some of our customers use more than 100Mbps each.

NOT overselling is what keeps us going and all of our customers happy regardless of usage.

I'd like to close by saying that you probably should not count on your residential ISP allowing you to Shoutcast at 10Mbps on a non-business account. And a business account is either 1. going to be severely capped, or 2. severely expensive.

sputnik radio
6th November 2006, 16:38
wow 100mbps . Thats nice.

when the BPL gets here I will let yall know what the specs all are on it. And how well it works or not.

thanks

sputnik radio
14th November 2006, 18:35
WEll ATT FOIS finnaly came out here but they require you to have a phone line account so i cant get it.

besides its only 6mbps down and i think 1.5mbps up



BPL through http://current.net is still on the burners and I dont know why they have not released yet



SOoooooooooooo I went ahead and just upgraded my Time Warner Account.

I signed up for their premium plan for 62 bucks a month

8mbps download and 768kbps upload.



I guess that will let me run an additional server with like 5 listeners at 128k . That combined with my 100 slots at 96k.


Cant wait till BPL comes.