Some Replay Gain Features

[Slipstreamracer]

It would be great if
- Winamp could recognise the Replay Gain tags written by MP3Gain
- Winamp's Replay Gain Calculation gets faster
- you can change the Replay Gain Volume.

For detailed information see my post here (http://forums.winamp.com/showthread.php?postid=2074158#post2074158).

[Koopa]

There are several threads, asking for additionl RG stuff.

- Winamp could recognise the Replay Gain tags written by MP3Gain
First, MP3Gain doesn't write any tag information, it modifies the MP3 structur (<-- it is lossless). If the file is already modified with MP3Gain, all other programs (including Winamp) will play the files with the new volume.

Second, if you would implement MP3Gain's main functionality, Winamp's installer size would grow. Also note that MP3Gain is limited to an accuracy of 1,5db

- Winamp's Replay Gain Calculation gets faster
Winamp isn't much slower as other programs. RG scanning always use some time. I think there is not much, which could be improved.
- you can change the Replay Gain Volume.
This was requested many times before and is already part of the main wishlist (http://forums.winamp.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64975), so no need to ask again.

[Slipstreamracer]

Originally posted by Koopatrooper
There are several threads, asking for additionl RG stuff.

Sorry, but I didn't find everything that I would like to see in a new version, so I thought I could put it together in a new post.

First, MP3Gain doesn't write any tag information, it modifies the MP3 structur (<-- it is lossless). If the file is already modified with MP3Gain, all other programs (including Winamp) will play the files with the new volume.

Second, if you would implement MP3Gain's main functionality, Winamp's installer size would grow. Also note that MP3Gain is limited to an accuracy of 1,5db

I knew that, but after MP3Gain has scanned the MP3s and before it modifies anything, it writes the scanning results as Replay Gain tags. So, even if you don't modify the MP3s you could use Replay Gain with a MP3 player that recognises the tags.

Winamp isn't much slower as other programs. RG scanning always use some time. I think there is not much, which could be improved.

I know that it takes time, but as I noticed, the scanning method of MP3Gain seems quite faster than Winamp's.

So my thought was to use MP3Gain to scan my MP3s and use Winamp to listen to them.

But if you could set the RG value in Winamp (as requested in the wishlist) this would not be necessary. The speed thing doesn't matter that much.

This was requested many times before and is already part of the main wishlist, so no need to ask again.
You mean "ReplayGain: Edit / Clear RG info"? I think I might have read over the "Edit".

[Koopa]

I knew that, but after MP3Gain has scanned the MP3s and before it modifies anything, it writes the scanning results as Replay Gain tags. So, even if you don't modify the MP3s you could use Replay Gain with a MP3 player that recognises the tags.
MP3Gain doesn't write any tag information, it modifies the MP3 structur directly. ;)
I know that it takes time, but as I noticed, the scanning method of MP3Gain seems quite faster than Winamp's.

So my thought was to use MP3Gain to scan my MP3s and use Winamp to listen to them.
Again, MP3Gain will modify the structure of the MP3s, so if you've scanned all files with MP3Gain, Winamp will play the files with the new, modified volume.

So simply use MP3Gain and play the "IMPROVED" files then in Winamp.

Never forget, MP3Gain /= ReplayGain

[Slipstreamracer]

You won't believe me, will you? ;)

So I've made some screenshots (http://www.grundler-regensburg.de/Slipstreamracer/Winamp/Replay_Gain_with_MP3Gain.zip), which will hopefully convince you.

[Koopa]

I'm using MP3Gain too and I'm sure that it won't create any tag.

The tags on the screenshots are APEv2 tags, e.g. foobar will write Replaygain values in APEv2 zags, but Winamp isn't able to read them yet.

I guess APEv2 support is planned (it's also part of the Wishlist), so then Winamp is able to read the values from APEv2 tags too (but i still doubt, that MP3Gain will write any tag, 'cause it modifies the MP3 structure, heh)

Let me explain the whole thing a little more. :)

If you modifiy the files with MP3gain, you can play these modified files in every player. It wouldn't make any sense to write RG infos in APE2 tags, if most players like the Windows Media Player or others don't have RG support. These players haven't support for APEv2 tags too, so just a few player like foobar are able to play the files with the new volume.

(If you scan the files with Winamp/Foobar, other players ike WMP or your car radio are not able to play the new volume, because they have no RG support.)

MP3Gain modifies the structure of the files, so every software player, every car radio, every home CD/DVD player, every portable player etc, is able to play the files with the new volume. This is why we have a program like MP3Gain, this is the meaning of MP3Gain.

But they don't need a RG scanner nor they need the ability to read APEv2 tags.

If MP3Gain really writes RG infos, then it's an additional feature which I'm not aware about, but it has nothing to do with MP3Gain's main functionality, analysing files and writing infos is the same thing like Winamp (via ID3v2.3 tags) or foobar (via APEv2 tags) do.

[draganmi]

Mp3gain writes APE tags in order to store the history of changes it makes to mp3s (relevant for "Undo Gain Changes" menu item), and NOT for the sake of adjusting gain of mp3s during the playback in a player.
Changes in gain are made by writing gain data to mp3 frame headers, so that mp3 file is modified directly. Hence files modified by mp3gain have the same gain, no matter what player you use (it affects gain even when you open mp3 file in an WAV editor).

[Slipstreamracer]

I know, that the main purpose of MP3Gain is to modify the MP3 structure directly.

Despite the fact, that it's an additional feature, it is my only alternative to scan the mp3s at the moment, if I want to change the RG volume.

Btw. I've made a little mistake in my attempt to get Winamp to recognise the tags written by MP3Gain. I've ignored the fact, that Winamp can only read ID3v2.3 tags. So it has been no wonder that Winamp wasn't able to read the ID3v2.4 tags. (see other post (http://forums.winamp.com/showthread.php?postid=2076008#post2076008))

@draganmi:
Yes, if you use the main function of MP3Gain. But it also writes normal replaygain tags (in addition to the "undo" tags). If you apply the MP3Gain changes then the values in the replaygain tags will be reduced to a minimum value that indicates the last bit of accuracy that can't be achieved by modifying the mp3 structure (1.5 dB accuracy).

[draganmi]

Winamp successfully uses ID3v2.3 tags for Replay Gain data, so for that purpose ID3v2.4 tags are NOT necessary.
The real question then is can mp3gain be made to create ID3v2.3 tags? Or is there a tool to convert ID3v2.4 tags to ID3v2.3? (I know it's a funny question - let's hope Winamp starts to support ID3v2.4 tags at last).

[Slipstreamracer]

Actually MP3Gain writes APE tags. I use mp3tag to convert the APE tags to ID3v2.3. But be careful, you may lose all your ID3 tags if they are not saved as APE, too!!! Maybe there is a better solution for this task. If you want to use mp3tag, then you have to set "read APE" and "write ID3v1/2 APE" at the options (tags/mpeg). Again: all ID3 tags will be overwritten with the APE tags or will be deleted if the corresponding APE tag doesn't exist!!!

[Moguta]

I'm not sure why you're so adamant that MP3Gain does not write ReplayGain tags, Koopa. It writes APEv2 tags with the appropriate ReplayGain information as soon as you finish analyzing the files, even if you don't apply the actual gain! It's not an additional feature, it's how the program works regularly.

And it -does- make total sense. What's the advantage that you mention of ReplayGain over MP3Gain? That ReplayGain tagged files can adjust between album and track gain on the fly. Well, guess what. When the MP3Gained files get their APEv2 ReplayGain tags, they also gain that on-the-fly mode selection with players that support the tags. (Assuming that you scanned the album gain in the first place.) And also the ReplayGain compliant players will adjust the volume by the small amount that the 1.5dB resolution is off from the actual value.

Here's an example:
I scan some stuff with MP3Gain in analysis mode... say it detects for one file a track gain of -6.34dB and album gain of -3.12dB. It writes that in the APEv2 tag. I then decide to do track gain, which lowers the MP3 internally by 6dB. The track gain tag is then written as -0.34dB and the album gain tag becomes +2.88dB.

draganmi is right in saying that the APEv2 tags store the "undo" information also, but that is -not- the only purpose. If you really need to be sure, take a newly created MP3 file, perform a simple MP3Gain analysis on it, then open it up in Foobar2000. It will recognize & display the ReplayGain tags within.
(Although, just doing some testing after getting weird results trying to verify that myself, the presence of Lyrics3 tags seem to either make Foobar unable to read those APEv2 tags, or interferes with the writing of them. Ai, ai, ai...)

[draganmi]

APE tags have dual task, one is to enable the "undo" function, and the other is to record the results of track analysis, so once you've done the analysis, there is no need to do it again.
That means if you perform only the track analysis and apply the "change gain" operation at some other time, gain change will be performed based on analysis data stored previously in APE tag, without performing another instance of analysis.
But in both cases, the purpose of mp3gain's APE tags is to store data for its internal use, not to give instructions to player programs.

[Slipstreamracer]

Originally posted by draganmi
But in both cases, the purpose of mp3gain's APE tags is to store data for its internal use, not to give instructions to player programs.

Yes, but that doesn't mean that you can't use them in this way.

[draganmi]

It's OK if there is a player which can correctly play a mp3 file, and at the same time execute data from tags belonging to some other compressed format (i.e. APE).

[Koopa]

It writes APEv2 tags with the appropriate ReplayGain information as soon as you finish analyzing the files, even if you don't apply the actual gain! It's not an additional feature, it's how the program works regularly.
The main advantage of MP3Gain is that it modifies the MP3 structur directly, so your software/hardware player don't need to support ReplayGain. I wasn't aware about the tag writing.

Never mind, Winamp still doesn't support ID3v2.4 or APE tags, these features must be included, before Winamp can use the MP3Gain (APE) or Foobar (ID3v2.4) RG infos.

Both are part of the wishlist, so no need for requesting again. :p

[CraigF]

Well, I feel more educated. Thanks for the clarification.

It does appear that most issues would be cleared up once winamp supports APE and id3v2.4.

*shrug*

[Moguta]

Originally posted by draganmi
APE tags have dual task, one is to enable the "undo" function, and the other is to record the results of track analysis, so once you've done the analysis, there is no need to do it again.
That means if you perform only the track analysis and apply the "change gain" operation at some other time, gain change will be performed based on analysis data stored previously in APE tag, without performing another instance of analysis.
But in both cases, the purpose of mp3gain's APE tags is to store data for its internal use, not to give instructions to player programs.
You're probably right about intent. But I know that Musepack (MPC) files store Replay Gain values in APEv2 tags in the same way. In an odd twist of irony, Winamp -- by extension -- can read APEv2 tags. Even though it's only the Musepack input plugin that does such, rather than the application's core.

Another reason to detect these APEv2 Replay Gain tags is to prevent Winamp from automatically applying the "adjustment for files without Replay Gain" to MP3Gained files. Admittedly, it's easy enough to increase this value to 0dB, but that kinda defeats the purpose.
(Why have I even enabled Replay Gain in Winamp if I'm using MP3Gain, you ask? Fair enough question. It's because I use RG tags on other formats such as FLAC.)

Originally posted by Koopatrooper
Never mind, Winamp still doesn't support ID3v2.4 or APE tags, these features must be included, before Winamp can use the MP3Gain (APE) or Foobar (ID3v2.4) RG infos.

Both are part of the wishlist, so no need for requesting again. :p
I just have the nagging feeling APEv2 support will be an item left sitting on that list as "nice... but not worth implementation". :(

On the other hand, there's some incentive to update ID3 to the newest standard, given that ID3 is only the most popular tag type for the most popular compressed-audio format... :p

[CraigF]

well, the problem surrounds the original input architecture where by tag reading is done by the input plugin, so while the mpc plugin supports ape, the mp3 plugin does not.

Thats not to say that there couldnt be a w5s specifically created for each tag format, but that makes the system wholly more complex.

Thats even bringing in the fact that people are not necessarily for or against the w5s system of shared libraries, especially when customizing their own installs.

I dunno. I think to me it seems logical to attempt to seperate the meta-data aspect, and infact the network code while we're at it. Time will tell where the developers take it.