Bitorrent Streaming Is Alive And Kicking

[sankt]

The wonderful folks at the European P2P streaming consortium have a test stream up and running. trial.p2p-next.org

The group has a Windows and Linux client available, free to download.

This Open Source Technology uses VLC as the base for watching the stream, soooo imagine what could be done with NSV + H.264 + swarmplayer :) The possibilities are fantastic !

[Jkey]

cheers sankt and if anymore spam new or old appears
let me know.

[wildex999]

Hm... It's looking good so far, should be fun to see how it will work out ;)

[sankt]

I managed to track down how to set up your own Bittorrent Stream : www.tribler.org/StreamingExperiment

Both live video and video on demand is supported.

You would need to download the Tribler client for actual streaming. ( Tribler is both open source and free to download. )

The streaming guide example uses the Linux operating system. The encoding software is FFmpeg. FFmpeg natively supports both the H.264 video and AAC+ audio codecs.

Using H.264 and AAC+ would maximize the use of bandwidth and provide a excellent audio / video broadcast for Bittorrent streaming.

[jusama14]

that's amazing for live streaming. So high bitrate streams at no bandwidth costs for a dedicated server?

[sankt]

Yep, with Bittorrent streaming - there is no need for dedicated servers or massive amounts of bandwidth. True Peer to Peer streaming, without the headache of downloading a bunch of software and relying on ActiveX or Java to make the darn thing work.

Bittorrent distribution is a very mature technology, thats the great part of the equation. They just have to work out the minor kinks with Tribler and the SwarmPlayer now. Bittorrent is also well recognized by both computer experts and beginners.

The only missing element is a " station directory ", but I could easily see Pirate Bay adding a section for that.

The FCC recently slapped down the American national cable Internet provider Comcast over " Traffic Shaping ", so Bittorrent poisoning or throttling should quickly diminish in the USA. Attempts to squash legitimate Bittorrent use in the EU should also slow down, since the EU Telecom industry is funding and pushing for the advancement of this technology.

[jusama14]

Now ISPS just need to stop limiting people's bandwidth. More and more isps are starting to do this.

Yeah I also see this leading to streaming of copyrighted content. I don't see a way (yet) that'll tell you exactly who you are connected to. So people will assume it's safe and more and more will switch over to this p2p streaming.

[sankt]

Here is some additional information for streaming : www.tribler.org/LiveStreamingBeta

The most important thing that Bittorrent Streaming has is the ability to draw stream information from multiple sources, so that if one source fails - the client draws information from other sources. Point to point node failure is what kills most P2P streaming projects. Bittorrent Streaming eliminates that !

[slavas]

err from when ffmpeg supports AAC+ encoding?..

[sankt]

Standard AAC - not AAC+ (HE-AAC), I stand corrected.

Installing ffmpeg with AAC support
******.org/node/131600

Year of AAC in FFmpeg
codecs.multimedia.cx/?p=132

How to convert MP3 to AAC using FFmpeg
www.howforge.com/how-to-convert-mp3-to-aac-using-ffmpeg

[streamer45]

I tried streaming with it.
It's good but now it only supports MPEG TS mux so VLC streaming and no NSV.

I opened a ticket to know if it's possible to fix that NSV issue.

[sankt]

You maybe able to pipe the output of a local shoutcast DNAS stream to vlc then convert it to a compliant Transport Stream format.

Creating Transport Streams with VLC - wiki.videolan.org/MPEG-TS

[streamer45]

Originally posted by sankt
You maybe able to pipe the output of a local shoutcast DNAS stream to vlc then convert it to a compliant Transport Stream format.

Creating Transport Streams with VLC - wiki.videolan.org/MPEG-TS

I tried that too, but VLC crashes when trying to convert NSV

[sankt]

What about demuxing the NSV stream ( stripping away the NSV container format ) so that all you have is the audio / video ?

[sankt]

TsRemux v0.21.2: Transport Stream De/Re-muxer
( Open Source )
forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=125447

Transport Stream muxer (tsMuxeR) can mux pretty much anything into a regular transport stream and now even Blu-ray's M2TS
( Free )
www.softpedia.com/get/Multimedia/Video/Other-VIDEO-Tools/tsMuxeR.shtml

[streamer45]

Originally posted by sankt
TsRemux v0.21.2: Transport Stream De/Re-muxer
( Open Source )
forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=125447

Transport Stream muxer (tsMuxeR) can mux pretty much anything into a regular transport stream and now even Blu-ray's M2TS
( Free )
www.softpedia.com/get/Multimedia/Video/Other-VIDEO-Tools/tsMuxeR.shtml

I'll try, but it's not possible a thing like that when streaming live content :D

EDIT:

Okay I demuxed NSV with NSVD and muxed it with TSMuxer.
I think it should work now :)

[sankt]

How about posting the tstream file :)

[streamer45]

Originally posted by sankt
How about posting the tstream file :)

Yeah, but first I want to find a solution for the live streaming :(

[sankt]

FFMPEG can be used to demux NSV
The file name can be `-' to read from standard input or to write to standard output.
ffmpeg.mplayerhq.hu/ffmpeg-doc.html#SEC17

tsMuxer supports both the H.264 and AAC codecs.
tsMuxer has a console version available for Linux as well.
www.smlabs.net/tsmuxer_en.html

Pipe output of NSV stream from Shoutcast DNAS to FFMPEG
Pipe demuxed output from FFMPEG to tsMuxer
Pipe converted TS data to creatlivestream.py

[streamer45]

Originally posted by sankt
FFMPEG can be used to demux NSV
The file name can be `-' to read from standard input or to write to standard output.
ffmpeg.mplayerhq.hu/ffmpeg-doc.html#SEC17

tsMuxer supports both the H.264 and AAC codecs.
tsMuxer has a console version available for Linux as well.
www.smlabs.net/tsmuxer_en.html

Pipe output of NSV stream from Shoutcast DNAS to FFMPEG
Pipe demuxed output from FFMPEG to tsMuxer
Pipe converted TS data to creatlivestream.py

Thanks mate for this info, I will do some tests tomorrow ;)

[sankt]

Using FFMPEG to demux a NSV stream and convert it into a MPEG Transport Stream.
( To use with the Tribler software. )

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- I "stream name . format extension" - ( input NSV stream name )
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- F RAW VIDEO ( demux NSV file into raw audio / video )
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- VCODEC "video codec" ( encode raw video using specified codec )
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- S "resolution" ( specified video resolution )
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- B "bitrate" ( specified video bitrate )
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- BT "bitrate" ( specified bitrate resolution )
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ACODEC "audio codec" ( encode raw audio using specified codec )
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- AR "frequency" ( specified audio frequency )
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- AB "bitrate" ( specified audio bitrate )
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- AC "channel" ( specified number of audio channels )
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- F MPEGTS ( convert data to transport stream format )
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Areas in Red need to be changed according to your stream requirements.

I will host TS stream files for Bittorrent NSV streams.
Your stream must be 24 / 7 and must not be adult or copyrighted material.

[Jkey]

Thanks for that sankt..
im going to give this a try i think.

[sankt]

I will put together a page to help people setting up a bittorrent NSV stream. :)

There are two ways you can create a bittorrent nsv stream - using mencoder and ffmpeg or just ffmpeg. Using just ffmpeg should eliminate the need to have several data pipes operating.

As usual, any feed back - comments or corrections are greatly appreciated.

[likhary]

Bittorrent distribution is a very mature technology, thats the great part of the equation. They just have to work out the minor kinks with Tribler and the SwarmPlayer now. Bittorrent is also well recognized by both computer experts and beginners.

[sankt]

Very well said.

You would have to be living under a rock not to know what Bittorrent is.

I also love the fact that they are basing the technology on Open Source software.

The continued financial support of the project will ensure that it will keep improving and growing.

[jaromanda]

Originally posted by sankt
As usual, any feed back - comments or corrections are greatly appreciated.
Couple of things about your ffmpeg hints:

1) ffmpeg is case sensitive, all your examples show -I -B -ACODEC etc, wont work

2) not sure about what -I "stream name.format extenstion" means ... ffmpeg can directly read from a shoutcast server, e.g. -i http://localhost:8000/ - note, no ;stream.nsv, no listen.pls etc

3) to get the raw video format, its -f rawvideo ... note, no space between raw and video

[sankt]

The following command can convert a standard HTTP MP3 shoutcast stream into a TS compliant stream.

The following command works great, but it's using HTTP:
C:\Program Files\VideoLAN\VLC>vlc http : // shoutcastserverIP : port --sout http / ts : 192.168.X.X : 1235

However - when tried with a NSV stream, it just picks up the audio, and leaves the video out.

[jusama14]

Is there a normal way to stream via bittorrent w/out nsv?

[sankt]

You can use VLC to encode the audio / video content and encapsulate the stream using the Transport Stream format.

www.scvi.net/stream/bitstream.htm

However, it still would be nice to be able to pull NSV video from Shoutcast / Icecast servers and stream it using Bittorrent Streaming.

Shoutcast streaming audio works great with Bittorrent Streaming.

[streamer45]

I've good news (quite good).
I've managed to stream NSV with SwarmPlayer.
Later I'll provide all infos.

[sankt]

Three Cheers !

Details will be greatly appreciated.

Bandwidth problems are no more :D

[streamer45]

well, the h264 problem is not solved, infact I managed to stream NSV with SP encoding it with XVID codec.
I built the xvid coder plugin and then I used the SCVI tutorial that uses vlc to encapsulate the stream into MPEGTS muxer.

The quality is not as good as h264 but it's something.

[sankt]

This might be the time to add the Dirac video codec to the list of NSV supported encoder plugins - www.diracvideo.org

The latest version of VLC natively supports the Dirac video codec. forum.videolan.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=44673

The format identifier for encapsulating Dirac video within MPEG2 Transport Streams has been registered with the SMPTE. ( Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers. )

The Dirac test video files encoded by the BBC are encapsulated in the Transport Stream format.
dirac.kw.bbc.co.uk/download/video/maybefinal/

Dirac provides video quality and compression that are comparable to H.264.

Dirac is Open Source as well. :)

[Jkey]

how did i know Dirac was going to appear in this thread ? :D

Still dirac is worth a try through.

[sankt]

I really want to see this take off Jkey :)

I will dig up every little scrap of information I can - to keep this moving forward.

Bittorrent Streaming would be the key to make NSV stand out again !

[streamer45]

I've also looked at Dirac but I didn't find anything useful.
Does even exist a vfw version of this codec?

[sankt]

Dirac ffmpeg patches
diracvideo.org/download/dirac-research/ffmpeg-patches/


Did you try streaming with VP6 ? I know its nothing like H.264 - but its much better than VP3 and slightly better than Xvid / Divx.

[streamer45]

Originally posted by sankt
Dirac ffmpeg patches
diracvideo.org/download/dirac-research/ffmpeg-patches/


Did you try streaming with VP6 ? I know its nothing like H.264 - but its much better than VP3 and slightly better than Xvid / Divx.

Yes but same problem when encapsulating with VLC (getting only audio).
The error is:
[00000303] nsv demuxer error: invalid signature 0xef5e7253 (Sr^?) [00000298] main private error: cannot add this stream [00000330] main packetizer error: cannot create packetizer output (VP61)


About the dirac, how can I build an encode plugin if I haven't a VFW Config Gui?
How to use ffmpeg with NSVCAP?

[sankt]

Mencoder

Use mencoder to wrap a existing stream using Transport Stream format.

$ mencoder -ovc copy -oac copy -o news.nsv news.ts

copies video / audio of news.nsv into news.ts format

http://www.togaware.com/linux/survivor/Converting_Transport.html

This was originally referenced for a mpeg stream.

Cant hurt to try nsv, since mencoder / mplayer does support NSV.

[streamer45]

Using that, I'm getting an AVI file

[sankt]

Try this:

$ mencoder -of mpeg -ovc copy -oac copy -o news.nsv news.ts

You are creating a encapsulated MPEG-TS stream, exactly what Tribler is looking for.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG_transport_stream

[streamer45]

Yeah I tried, but I'm getting this:

Nullsoft Streaming Video file format detected.
VIDEO: [H264] 400x304 24bpp 23.000 fps 0.0 kbps ( 0.0 kbyte/s)
[V] filefmt:36 fourcc:0x34363248 size:400x304 fps:23.00 ftime:=0.0435
==========================================================================
Opening audio decoder: [faad] AAC (MPEG2/4 Advanced Audio Coding)
FAAD: compressed input bitrate missing, assuming 128kbit/s!
AUDIO: 44100 Hz, 2 ch, s16le, 128.0 kbit/9.07% (ratio: 16000->176400)
Selected audio codec: [faad] afm: faad (FAAD AAC (MPEG-2/MPEG-4 Audio) decoder)
==========================================================================
PACKET SIZE: 2048 bytes, deltascr: 245760
videocodec: framecopy (400x304 24bpp fourcc=34363248)
Limiting audio preload to 0.4s.
Increasing audio density to 4.
Writing header...

And then nothing...

[sankt]

Try using VP6 and see if you get the same results.

[streamer45]

Same thing.That "-of mpeg" option is the problem...

[sankt]

Mencoder may not choke doing the stream formating if you use a multi step approach.

Convert the NSV stream into AVI stream
$ mencoder -of avi -ovc copy -oac copy -o news.nsv news.avi

then

Convert the AVI stream to a MPEG-TS stream
$ mencoder -of mpeg -ovc copy -oac copy -o news.avi news.ts


Or even use VLC to convert the the NSV stream to a AVI format, then use Mencoder to convert the AVI stream to a MPEG-TS format.

[streamer45]

Always same problem doing step 2 :(
Also with vlc I get problems:

[00000298] main private error: cannot add this stream
[00000335] main packetizer error: cannot create packetizer output (s16l)

[sankt]

What about using ffmpeg to convert NSV to AVI

ffmpeg -i news.nsv -f news.avi

then use mencoder to convert AVI to MPEG-TS ?

Try using VP6 and H.264 with ffmpeg to convert to AVI. Try VP3 and see what you get while you are at it.

[streamer45]

FFMPEG gives me an error:

Duration: 00:00:00.00, start: 0.000000, bitrate: N/A
Stream #0.0: Video: H264 / 0x34363248, 400x304, 23.00 tb(r)
Stream #0.1: Audio: AAC / 0x20434141, 11025 Hz, stereo, s16, 120 kb/s
Unknown input or output format: news.avi

[sankt]

What about using Mencoder to convert NSV to AVI

Then using ffmpeg to convert AVI to MPEG-TS ?

[streamer45]

It works but it loses quality and ffmpeg stops encoding after a bit

Error while decoding stream #0.0
[h264 @ 0x87a1bf0]B picture before any references, skipping
[h264 @ 0x87a1bf0]decode_slice_header error
[h264 @ 0x87a1bf0]no frame!
Error while decoding stream #0.0
[h264 @ 0x87a1bf0]non-existing PPS referenced
[h264 @ 0x87a1bf0]decode_slice_header error
[h264 @ 0x87a1bf0]no frame!
Error while decoding stream #0.0
[h264 @ 0x87a1bf0]number of reference frames exceeds max (probably corrupt input), discarding one
[h264 @ 0x87a1bf0]number of reference frames exceeds max (probably corrupt input), discarding one
[h264 @ 0x87a1bf0]number of reference frames exceeds max (probably corrupt input), discarding one
[h264 @ 0x87a1bf0]number of reference frames exceeds max (probably corrupt input), discarding one
[h264 @ 0x87a1bf0]number of reference frames exceeds max (probably corrupt input), discarding one
frame= 1068 fps=286 q=31.0 Lsize= 2018kB time=44.50 bitrate= 371.4kbits/s
video:1287kB audio:351kB global headers:0kB muxing overhead 23.184682%

[sankt]

Use Mencoder to convert NSV to AVI.

Then

Run another instance of Mencoder to convert AVI to MPEG-TS.

Also

Try using VLC to convert the AVI to MPEG-TS.

If you would - try with H.264 and VP6.

[streamer45]

Nothing, mencoder stucks when converting to MPEGTS.
VLC can't handle that and no difference between h264 and vp6, always same problems.
We should try something else.

[sankt]

Two options

Take a NSV stream - demux both audio and video - remux the audio and video in your choice of suitable codecs - then take the remuxed multimedia and wrap it with MPEG-TS.


Or try to use gstreamer and the MPEG-TS muxer
( I dont know if you could use that with NSV though. )


Fluendo has a MPEG TS muxer. We recently introduced support M2TS 192.
core.fluendo.com/gstreamer/svn/trunk/gst-fluendo-mpegmux/

www.nabble.com/MPEG-2-TS-Muxing-td17485498.html

That is a plugin for the Gstreamer server made by Fluendo.
gstreamer.freedesktop.org

[sankt]

I think the first option is probably going to be the best bet.

For what ever reason, the way NSV encodes video makes ffmpeg / vlc / mencoder choke.

If we take a NSV stream, demux it - then remux it using one of the MPEG-TS wrapper applications - then you are eliminating the need to have a NSV encoded stream to pass entirely through the process.

For the ffmpeg example below, ffmpeg would encode both the audio and video stream - thus eliminating the possibility of any previously encoded multimedia breaking the conversion process. ( Since the encoding is done internally. )

Mencoder could be used for this as well as VLC, in addition to ffmpeg.

I believe all 3 software applications allow H.264 and AAC encoding.

Command : ffmpeg - i - f rawvideo - vcodec - s - b - bt - acodec - ar - ab - ac - f mpegts

- i "stream name . format extension" - ( input NSV stream name )
- f rawvideo ( demux NSV file into raw audio / video )
- vcodec "video codec" ( encode raw video using specified codec )
- s "resolution" ( specified video resolution )
- b "bitrate" ( specified video bitrate )
- bt "bitrate" ( specified bitrate resolution )
- acodec "audio codec" ( encode raw audio using specified codec )
- ar "frequency" ( specified audio frequency )
- ab "bitrate" ( specified audio bitrate )
- ac "channel" ( specified number of audio channels )
- f mpegts ( convert data to transport stream format )

[streamer45]

I was thinking at that, but in that way we'll lose quality.
Can't we just demux and remux to MPEG-TS without transcoding?
If I'm not wrong the h264 comes directly from x264 vfw frontend so there shouldn't be any problem...
I'll make some tests and I'll let you know.

[sankt]

Are you are talking about is stripping away the NSV container format and encapsulating the audio and video stream with the MPEG-TS format ?

NSV encapsulated stream -> encoded audio / video stream -> MPEG-TS encapsulated stream

If so - then that is indeed the ideal solution.

You would need a NSV stripping tool that could handle a continuous stream - not just files.

[streamer45]

yeah that's what I was thinking about.
It's getting hard this thing :P

I tried to do something like that with FFMPEG, but I'm getting a corrupted file.

[sankt]

There is a command line tool for DOS / Windows that can strip away the NSV format container. It leaves the audio and video encoded. I dont know if it will work with a continuous stream though.

NSV Demuxer : www.scvi.net/software.htm

Patience is a virtue that will bring the results needed. :)

[streamer45]

When we talk about streams, I usually work on LINUX.
Anyway I tried that tool, but it doesn't support a live stream, it just encodes what he has got.

[sankt]

Wildex999 developed a NSV "demuxer" as well.
( Its Windows/FreeBSD )

sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=192233&package_id=226254

We might be able to get him to modify it to handle streams as well as files - if it does not to that already.

[streamer45]

Yeah, we should talk to him cause I had problems compiling that on debian, so we need his help.

[Jkey]

i had no problems compiling it on centOs and Ubuntu

We might be able to get him to modify it to handle streams as well as files - if it does not to that already.

im working on this :) for extracting audio from nsv
streams then sending to sc server.

[sankt]

Jake,

If you do find the answer - let us know please :D

[Jkey]

im stuck in the middle of a flash based project
at the moment its taking up all my free time.
That and being a forum slave ;)

but once i have more time and happy with the results
of my nsv audio relay app i will look into this
as a priorty.

[sankt]

This is a demux library for NSV - that supports continuous streams.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Note! I have here attached a NSV Demux Library/Code in C++
which MPlayer might be able to use for it if they strip it down.Also note since MPlayer is written in C, they have to port C++

www.xbmc.org/trac/ticket/302

[jaromanda]

Originally posted by Jkey
im working on this :) for extracting audio from nsv
streams then sending to sc server.

assuming nsv is on localhost:8000 - NSV with AACP audio

ffmpeg -i http:/_/localhost:8000/ -acodec copy -vn -f adts -

(note, I added the _ to avoid the link hiding thing here)

the output of that command can be fed directly to a shoutcast server - I've written a tiny program, using a slightly modified libshout, that does just that

it works too ...

of course, none of that is practical ...

[sankt]

Extracting both audio and video

ffmpeg -i http:/localhost:8000/ -acodec copy -vcodec copy -f mpegts

You extract ( copy ) the video / audio from the local shoutcast NSV stream - then force format mpegts for the output data.

[wildex999]

Hm.. someone mentioned my name? =P Been busy, starting my first year(of 3) for a bachelor in computer, so been a bit busy :P

Anyway, ffmpeg's NSV demuxer isn't working very good I have noticed. It breaks up on longer streams, and it crashes if a stream only have audio, or if it have any corrupted frames.
If you look in the SVN( http://nsvlib.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/nsvlib/ ) you will find an example NSV muxer/demuxer, so if anyone want's to write something using it, please do =P

I'm thinking of getting back into NSV, so I'll maybe make some real-time stream transcoder when I have time.
Maybe I'll just whip up a command-line version if it's needed(Still getting into GUI programming)

[sankt]

It looks like ffmpeg will " Demux " both the audio and video from NSV and format the output using MPEG-TS - without having to worry about transcoding the audio and video.

Transcoding back and forth can get messy.

[Jkey]

im making a standalone version for
linux with no external demuxer such as ffmpeg.

I know its easyier but i need a program to deploy quickly without having to install anything else on my box/s
which run a minimal linux OS.

[Jeeper One]

Originally posted by sankt
Very well said.

You would have to be living under a rock not to know what Bittorrent is.

I also love the fact that they are basing the technology on Open Source software.

The continued financial support of the project will ensure that it will keep improving and growing.
If they would just simply add user interaction capabilities (i.e. a chat room), you might even have me sold on this idea.

But for now, I'm sticking with the established sites.

Cheers :D

Pat

[Jkey]

Had a look into it.
im going to leave this alone too its far too obscure
tech for my taste.

[sankt]

I read up on VLC some this week.

You can use the application to stream individually encoded files, playists OR actual streams, without transcoding them - and outputing the stream into a Transport Stream format.

You would be able to use H.264, VP6, VP3 / MP3, AAC+ encoded NSV files.

www.videolan.org/doc/streaming-howto/en/ch02.html