How Much Does Smoking Cost Society?

[rockouthippie]

WASHINGTON — Smoking takes years off your life and adds dollars to the cost of health care. Yet nonsmokers cost society money, too _ by living longer..... Vanderbilt University economist Kip Viscusi studied the net costs of smoking-related spending and savings and found that for every pack of cigarettes smoked, the country reaps a net cost savings of 32 cents.

http://digg.com/d1oEY4

Smoke em' while you got em :)

[ryan]

The new smoking tax is paying for an expansion of schip (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Children%27s_Health_Insurance_Program). The expansion was to cover tons more kids that already had health insurance.

Unless I misunderstood what I read the other day. If I find the article I'll post it.

[rockouthippie]

You read it right.

http://www.heritage.org/research/healthcare/wm1548.cfm

[ryan]

wtf is wrong with obama... HE SMOKES. But I bet he doesn't pay for his cigarettes.

[baafie]

I think the cause is the way that society deals with older people. These days, people live much longer than they used to, with the average life expectancy hovering around 80 years in western countries. Yet people still retire at 65 (in some cases, even earlier). So it makes perfect sense that an aging society has more difficulty paying for itself, especially if more people age because of healthier living habits.

I think it is becoming clearer that people will have to work for longer to sustain social programs. Either that, or pick up smoking again. ;)

[spiderbaby1958]

Originally posted by rockouthippie
WASHINGTON — Smoking takes years off your life and adds dollars to the cost of health care. Yet nonsmokers cost society money, too _ by living longer..... Vanderbilt University economist Kip Viscusi studied the net costs of smoking-related spending and savings and found that for every pack of cigarettes smoked, the country reaps a net cost savings of 32 cents.

http://digg.com/d1oEY4

Smoke em' while you got em :)

The idea that smoking saves health care dollars by killing people who would otherwise just get old has been batted around for years, though I've never seen a dollar amount before.

My father had a serious heart condition that nearly killed him in his twenties, requiring open heart surgery in the early 60s before it was common. He's 73 now, and not doing too bad for an old guy. He's outlived almost everyine on his side of the family, smokers all, by decades... but my Mom, who used to worry about him so much (they're divorced now) and just couldn't quit is having serious respiratory problems.

Nobody takes more shit than the smokers. First they were forced outside, now they can't smoke near the doorway of most buildings. They're the victim of the most evil corporate business model ever, taxed by society to pay for health care that they'll never live to use, all the while inaccurately blamed for raising the cost of health care, increasingly disrespected and segregated all the time.

Happy to say, I myself quit 25 years ago.
:D

[rockouthippie]

Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
taxed by society to pay for health care that they'll never live to use


Lets not forget that NONE of the money in cigarette taxes goes to address the health issues of smokers.

Another little issue is that if you get lung cancer and don't have insurance you will get no help. How expensive is nothing? If you do have insurance, you paid extra for being a smoker.

[Paul_Bags]

Depending on the country, yes you do get help. Pretty sure you'd get help with that kind of shit here. We also have ACC, the Accident Compensation Corporation. So basicly if you do nothing wrong and get sick, or just generally have bad genes and need glasses etc, you have to pay your own way. Unless your right at the bottom and get social welfare. BUT if you go out, get drunk, do something stupid and break your ankle resulting in 6 months off of work? ACC pays 80% of your average wages. FTW. Sure, there are genuine accidents, but basically the government is taking X% of my wage to pay for someone else to be a dumbass, while the non-dumbasses get no help for things that totally aren't their fault.

Can you tell I hate governments?

[PaperClip]

Hmm, you can collect benefits for an injury OUTSIDE of the office? I don't know much about insurance and plans (I'll tell you that up front), but it seems ridiculous you'd be compensated for an accident that you caused, outside of the work place. I don't blame you for hating!!

[watadoo]

Hmm, you can collect benefits for an injury OUTSIDE of the office?<<<

Nope, you cant get workman's comp for not at work injuries. not in California anyway. Don't know what Paul_bags is talking about or even what country and government he hates.

[baafie]

In most western countries, you get sick pay. That means you'll get paid even if you are the cause of the sickness. Generally, your employer pays a percentage of your wages. I'm not aware of any countries where the government covers sick pay instead of the employer.

[rockouthippie]

I think he's in New Zealand where they spend a fraction of what the US spends on health care and cover everyone.

It's what happens when the medical industry, lawyers, insurance companies and politicians aren't:

A. Crooks
B. Thieves

It's also why we'll never get medical care reform in the United States. All of the above are having too good of a time ripping us off.

Before you start arguing with me, consider my last doctor visit where the doctor spent 15 seconds talking to me and charged me $165. You tell me how anyone is worth ten dollars a second.

[watadoo]

sounds like he only popped his head in the door and didn't even speak to you. 15 seconds is not enough time to walk in and sit down. i think you exaggerate or are leaving out information.

I have a great doctor who is not a crook or a thief. My medical insurance costs as much as my mortgage which hurts every month but when I have to use it covers the visits and procedures with a reasonable deductible. But then I'm lucky as my employers are Norwegians and value having a good health play that keeps the employees covered.

[Paul_Bags]

Yip, New Zealand (http://maps.google.co.nz/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=new+zealand&sll=-43.530754,172.641563&sspn=0.101929,0.174408&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=5). Here we have sick pay, your entitled to so many sick days a year for whatever (entitlement begins after 6 months of employment), you may or may not be required to show a medical certificate to your employer, depending on how many days you've had off in a row. Your employer covers this cost, at full wage. ACC covers the bigger stuff, broken foot and can't work for 3 months? they pay %80 of your wage, averaged over the last year. I'm not sure if your employers supposed to cover the other %20. You also get free physio etc.
However if your sick, as opposed to injury, you can't claim cheaper doctors visits on ACC. Like that time my knuckle swelled up due to infection, couldn't work cos I couldn't move my hand, had to pay full after hours (weekend) rates, plus the antibiotics, and that cost about as much as a days wage. Also, I'd only been at that job for 5 months, so I couldn't get sick pay either. So thats 2 days wages down the drain because my knuckle swelled up. Pretty shitty.

[rockouthippie]

Originally posted by watadoo
My medical insurance costs as much as my mortgage.

Then you say:

Originally posted by watadoo
I have a great doctor who is not a crook or a thief.

Are you really that dense? Let's say he's just a member of the cozy little RACKET that the American medical system is.... including the insurance companies, ambulance chasing lawyers, and politicians on the take from the latter.

How much was the weekend rate Paul? A days wage? It wasn't the THOUSAND DOLLARS poking your head into an American emergency room costs? Of course, that's a thousand just to walk in the door. Anything else is extra. A lot extra.

Let's compare 3 mattress stitches to my hand in an American hospital. I cut my hand.

$1000 Emergency Room
$600 to the ER doc for 3 mattress stitches that took about 5 minutes.
$80 for a shot of anesthetic.

The lions share of a months pay for a half hour at the hospital. Next time I'm just gonna get out the superglue!

I'm sure there is one drawback to the NZ system. Their doctors, lawyers and politicians probably have to play golf on a public golf course. Poor bastards!

[watadoo]

Don't call me dense, asshole. My health insurance rate is not determined by my doctor. He is not a crook or a thief. He's just a guy who has to deal with the same system as the rest of us and doesn't need insulting by the likes of you.

God, it must suck to be you and just be slathered with spittle from your constant rage. Your Doctor deserves to make $600 for dealing with the likes of you -- even for only 10 seconds.

But yes, you could easily stitch yourself up next time and save the money. With luck it won't get infected and you won't lose your hand.

Oh, and that's far less than a weeks pay for your trip to the hospital, bubba. If you had insurance it would likely have only cost you a $25 deductible or so.

[rockouthippie]

Originally posted by watadoo
If you had insurance it would likely have only cost you a $25 deductible or so.

Plus medical insurance that's more than your mortgage...

I suggest that when you go to the hospital that you look at the real bill, not your co-pay. The reason is that you paid 15-35% more than that as overhead for the insurance companies. About 20% of your bill will go back to insurance companies to pay lawyers half of what you get if your doctor screws up.

New Zealand spent 8.9% of GDP in 2008 on medical care and covers everyone. The United States spent 17% in 2008 and left 20% totally uninsured and the bulk of people under insured.

The reason we are screwed:

inefficiencies, excessive administrative expenses, inflated prices, poor management, and inappropriate care, waste and fraud.

http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml

But your doc is such a nice guy and couldn't possibly survive on the average $200,000 a year salary for a GP. And, of course, his hospital couldn't survive without charging $2000 a day for a room that isn't as nice as a Motel 6! Or $20 for a Tylenol!

Originally posted by watadoo
My medical insurance costs as much as my mortgage

That is because you are getting raped. Dense is not an adequate word.

[rockouthippie]

Originally posted by watadoo
Oh, and that's far less than a weeks pay for your trip to the hospital, bubba.

I didn't realize being a 12 year old atheist communist payed so well.

[Paul_Bags]

If I was earning that much a week I'd be fucking 12 hookers at once for 4 hours of every day while snorting just under the lethal dose of cocaine, every day. Seriously, that a fucking insane amount of money to get some stiches, my fucking brand new bicycle didn't cost that much. Fuck.

And the reason I hate out current government? THey've already started down the road of running the ACC into the ground so that they can say it's 'inefficient' and 'partially privatize' it, in effect giving us the same shit you guys have except heres the sweet part: it'll still be a required tax, you'll HAVE to pay for medical insurance with these guys, covering only injury, and then they can do whatever they like. Fucking morons in my country voted for this. Damn it.

[rockouthippie]

I'm sure it couldn't be higher than what Americans pay for no benefits at all. 18% FICA and 9-18% Workmans Comp.

Even when I've had insurance, the coverage had such a high deductible it would only do me some good if I was hit by a truck and run over by a road grader. Then I'm sure the insurance company would have tried to weasel out of stuff.

Average good insurance cost for a family of 4... about $13,000 and a third of households only make $25,000.

When we say 20% uninsured, we don't count people who have insurance which is just about worthless. If you look at that article I posted above, you'd see that 65% of medical bankruptcies are by people that had insurance.

[Paul_Bags]

Well I used to earn under 26000 a year, in fact now I earn less, and our dollars worth about half of yours... of course I only have myself to support.
We have 1.9% of our income go straight into ACC levys. We have, I think, free health care for children to a certain age, as well as the 'community services card', basically entitles low income earners to cheaper health care. Our A&E is free also, dunno what budget they have never mind as a percentage of tax but yeah, free health care if you go straight to the hospital and it's not trivial enough that they turn you away. Waiting times can be damn long unless your dying though, mainly with people getting all the free care they can.
Employers pay ACC levies too, and I think they pay more if they have more injuries in the work place, so it's an incentive to make work places safer too.

Of course there are tax breaks designed specifically for families, and basically our whole system is different, so a direct comparison of medical costs could be meaningless when you consider the comparative means of the people to pay those costs.

[rockouthippie]

One example is my mom. Her meds got screwed up. Her doctors took three blood tests and didn't tumble to the fact that she was absorbing more medication than she had been. She decided to lose some weight and it made a difference. She took some bad falls.

Anyway, they kept her in the hospital for three weeks with just basic nursing care. The bill was $80,000. That's probably a little over 3 years pay for me. Being 70 years old, medicare and her supplemental insurance covered it..... but three weeks in the hospital for me... I'd be done...

I think three weeks in the hospital would bankrupt most Americans... even with some insurance...

[baafie]

Originally posted by rockouthippie
I didn't realize being a 12 year old atheist communist payed so well.
This on the assumption that accusations of atheism or communism are somehow insulting?

For the record, I don't believe that the majority are out there gaming the system to be able to spend their weekends on island resorts. Most of them are just trying to support their families like everybody else.

Several friends of mine are US doctors and they're pretty much unanimous in that they find it awful to do what the system forces them to do. So rest assured, many of them don't like it.

[rockouthippie]

Originally posted by baafie
So rest assured, many of them don't like it.

Oh yeah, they just have to keep a gun at their head to cash the checks :rolleyes: And when you ask them, it will always be somebody else that makes too much money.

[baafie]

Originally posted by rockouthippie
Oh yeah, they just have to keep a gun at their head to cash the checks :rolleyes: And when you ask them, it will always be somebody else that makes too much money.
I think you must not realise how much of their income goes to legal insurance. So far as I know, that's the single biggest expense in US health care.

But maybe I should just not bother, because it seems once you have made up your mind no amount of rational argument can change it.

[rockouthippie]

Average income for GP's is about $300,000 a year. Sometimes for exercise, I help a friend of mine who is a landscaper do some 3-10 million dollar estates owned almost exclusively by doctors and the lawyers that sue them.

Not only are they screwing us over for health care, they are the stingiest, most demanding assholes you ever met.... with a damn few exceptions.

While they themselves work for $10 a second, they'll want to get blown for $10 an hour. That wouldn't be so bad except half of them are about half competent. One thing having had to deal with ill parents has taught me. Doctors are lazy bozos.

[watadoo]

Average good insurance cost for a family of 4... about $13,000 <<

I pay around $500 a month, that's $6k a year for a family of three -- if you're paying $13k you have a lot of nerve saying I'm the one being raped. But then I don't believe your numbers. From the very first post of yours I saw years ago, you were pulling facts out of every orifice you could reach -- a totally unreliable source who's only defense when called on his lies is to change the subject and name call.

I'm not 12, sport, and I don't get paid for being an atheist (scratching my head trying to figure out what the Hell my belief or non-belief in magical beings has to do with health insurance or my job, but then this is a conv. with ROH, all bets on rationality are off). I have an adult job and get paid quite well for my skill-set and my work ethics and the results I get. Your pay is likely commensurate with your work skills and very obvious lack of social skills. I wouldn't hire you to pull weeds in my garden.

[rockouthippie]

http://www.webmd.com/news/20070911/family-insurance-premiums-top-12000

Either your employer is contributing or your coverage is shit. Your mortgage is $500? Where do you live? A cardboard box?

[watadoo]

Originally posted by rockouthippie
Average income for GP's is about $300,000 a year. Sometimes for exercise, I help a friend of mine who is a landscaper do some 3-10 million dollar estates owned almost exclusively by doctors and the lawyers that sue them.

Not only are they screwing us over for health care, they are the stingiest, most demanding assholes you ever met.... with a damn few exceptions.

While they themselves work for $10 a second, they'll want to get blown for $10 an hour.

Boy howdy that' a whole lot of irrational class hatred slipping out there, bubba. You really hate your life and feel so worthless as all that so all you can do is re-channel all that ignorance and aggression and fear into attacking the more successful/educated/happier and well adjusted people?

[watadoo]

Originally posted by rockouthippie
http://www.webmd.com/news/20070911/family-insurance-premiums-top-12000

Either your employer is contributing or your coverage is shit.

Of course my employer is covering some of the cost. I have a real job with a responsible company.

[rockouthippie]

And that's money that they don't pay you! Thousands that they don't pay you!

Class hatred? No. I just don't like assholes. Rich people tend to be assholes. Not all. Just most.

I think Obama said it right, that being in Washington was sort of like being on American Idol. The problem is everyone is Simon.

What's the difference between a porcupine and a Porsche? On a porcupine the pricks are on the outside.

[watadoo]

Originally posted by rockouthippie


Class hatred? No. I just don't like assholes. Rich people tend to be assholes. Not all. Just most.

No, you see, that's class hatred right there. Grouping people and calling them assholes by the simple gauge of how much money they have and what they've acquired. It's all about the greed and jealousy and self hatred that's festering inside you like a swollen tick. You're a sick man, get help before you blow and end up shooting up a mall or something.

[rockouthippie]

It's really that on an individual basis most of the rich people I have met are completely hedonistic, self centered and self involved. There are rare exceptions.

I'm not jealous. Who could live with all that vanity and crap?

I'd just like to see health care not be a blank check. I'd like to see lawyers, politicians and BANKERS not have a blank check either.

[watadoo]

I've met some of those same folks, on that we find common ground. I just won't go so far as to make blankeet statements like, "rich people are assholes" cause I also know a few people you may well consider to be rich who are generous, wonderful, thoughtful people. I've met redneck dirt poor guys living in fly-speck towns that meet the same criteria. The only difference is a bit of education and a bit of luck. Both rich and poor work their asses off, in my experience.

[fc*uk]

Originally posted by baafie
Several friends of mine are US doctors and they're pretty much unanimous in that they find it awful to do what the system forces them to do. So rest assured, many of them don't like it.

My wife is a doctor and agrees 100% with baffie's comment.

I'll stop there.

[rockouthippie]

Yes. It's always somebody elses fault! Insurance companies.... student loans.... "deadbeats" who can't pay.... Waaaaa!

You'll have to remember yesterday I was hanging off a 20 foot ladder trimming arborvitaes for an MD/hospital administrator at his 5 million dollar house complete with 2 brand new Escalades and an extra Porsche.

Rest assured that if I fell off the ladder, he would make every effort not to kick me as he stepped over my body on the way to the private golf course.

He will spend 20 minutes trying to jew $50 off a landscaping bill threatening to hire illegal aliens instead :rolleyes: Luckily it's an empty threat, because somehow he tries to forget that it cost him $1200 to fix the damage the last batch of illegals did to his yard.

I'll stop there.

[watadoo]

He will spend 20 minutes trying to jew $50 off a landscaping bill <<<

do people really still talk like that? I haven't heard that lovely bit of antisemitism for decades, since I was in grade school.

Is there anyone you don't hate?

[Wildrose-Wally]

I'm not prejudiced, I hate everybody equally. :p

[fc*uk]

RoH: sounds like that dude is a fucking prick.

My wife and the attendings she works with work around the clock to help people. In what she wants to do, these people are in more than dire need. Many of the attendings will do any procedure on anyone for free, all the person has to do is promise not to sue (they do high risk operations). You wanna know how many times these doctors have performed free surgeries? They can count them on their two hands. They all have been practicing anywhere from 2-30 years.

Don't let the few vocal asshats out there cloud your judgment and make you disposed to the fact that the evil physicians created this system. Most of the good ones out there despise it and do everything that they can to "break the rules" to make sure the patient gets what (s)he needs. You outta see how pissed they get when the insurance companies deny procedures.

[rockouthippie]

Originally posted by fc*uk
RoH: sounds like that dude is a fucking prick.


In the "pill hill" neighborhood he lives in he is the rule, not the exception. I think screwing the "help" must give them bragging rights at the golf course. :rolleyes:


"break the rules" to make sure the patient gets what (s)he needs. You outta see how pissed they get when the insurance companies deny procedures.

I've seen how they "break the rules" in my mom's medical billings. It's called fraud. Nobody gave away so much as a free tongue depressor.

No, not all doctors are evil. But they are hardly the saints they'd like to get painted as. In the wake of their general inaction at least 50,000 people a year die of nothing! Nothing that a few minutes of a doctors time wouldn't cure anyway. Sure. It's not all their fault, but if someone is going to change that fact; who else?

What I hear from all the involved parties (lawyers, doctors & insurance companies etc.) is that we will continue to buy them 2 Escalades and a $150,000 Porsche while they live on the 5 million dollar estate and screw the help.

That somehow $3000-$6000 a day for a hospital room is reasonable. That $10 a second for a doctor is reasonable. That 35% overhead in insurance companies is reasonable. That $20 for a Tylenol is reasonable. The reform? Figuring out how to get us to pay more!

My rant doesn't probably matter because as insurance premiums go up 10% a year... soon no one will be able to pay... you saw the housing bubble... look for the medical bubble... Medical care hitting 20% of GDP is not sustainable.

Originally posted by watadoo
I haven't heard that lovely bit of antisemitism

Oh, eat a toad you little liberal twirp! I have jews in my family and they wouldn't take offense. They hardly need your protection. You'd hate em anyway. If you think I'm a conservative? LOL!

No, they wouldn't buy any of your liberal "victimhood" at all. You could call em names. Just don't give em a cyanide shower or tat serial numbers on em' and they're happy. It's the difference between knowing what real oppression is and making some bullshit up to get a free ride.

[watadoo]

I don't think you're a conservative. I think you're clinically depressed and insane and have strong sociopathic tendencies.

"some of my best friends are jewish and they wouldn't be mind..." Why am I not surprised that such a patently offensive character like you would pull out that old standard excuse for antisemitism and would be clueless about why people are offended by racist smears. You're not just evil, you're dumb, too.

When you're in a hole, the best advice I can give you is stop digging. As a guy who does yardwork for "rich" folks, I'd think you'd know that.

[rockouthippie]

You get more angry than I do about my conservative tendencies and find it necessary to resort to far more insults than I do.

I think you find it truly disturbing that there are jews who don't prescribe to your liberal victimhood and worry about the relative lack of antisemitism in the United States.

It's only in recent times that racial slurs meant anything. People only protested real oppression. It's because of a lack of that that liberals need to drag out some some bullshit to bitch about.

I asked a Mexican friend of mine. How come I'm supposed to call you a hispanic? What's wrong with being a Mexican?

"You got me man" "I think it's an up tight white people thing!"

[watadoo]

I bow to your superior vision of history and logic and modern American culture.

Examples of your logic that are the cement foundation of your worldly pov and leave me speechless in wonder at the beauty of your mind.

1. I'm rubber you're glue, whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you. captain of the debate team, I see

2. People are only offended when you smear their racial background because of modern liberal rich elitists who are infecting our culture. sputtersputtersputter...

3. it's only in recent times that racial slurs mean anything. An historian, too!

[rockouthippie]

I'm sure all the minority people are encouraged by your white bread indignation.

Originally posted by watadoo
As a guy who does yardwork for "rich" folks, I'd think you'd know that.

Well. About that. I haven't done any landscaping in years. The reason I am doing landscaping is that my neighbor (the landscaper) got hurt and can't afford the doctors he works for.

So, instead of these wonderful examples of liberal sainthood firing him, I am doing the hardest parts of the jobs for almost free. It's also the reason that minority people like me without your form of patronization. My friendship is worth something.

[watadoo]

I'm sure all the minority people are encouraged by your white bread indignation. >>>

Absolutely. I can say with extreme certainty that everyone within earshot is happy I don't make dumb ass remarks about Jewish folks or make racist remarks about blacks, Hispanics, Christians, Asians or the Irish or anyone else. It's not be cause of my a wimpy white bread personality. It's because I'm evolved.

Rock on , ROH, you're a new world order unto yourself. As much as I love conversing with you (it's like anthroplogy class studying a lost rainforest tribe all over again), I have to go to work now in my elitist whitebread liberal job. Have a lovely day.

[rockouthippie]

Originally posted by watadoo
It's because I'm evolved.

About one step beyond a house plant making you about half as smart.

Originally posted by watadoo
have to go to work now in my elitist whitebread liberal job.

Chanting Obama, Obama.... and spouting the virtues of atheism.. like some pedantic dolt.

I don't make dumb ass remarks about Jewish folks or make racist remarks about blacks, Hispanics, Christians, Asians or the Irish or anyone else.

All da rest of us folks dat ain't commie, liberal, atheistic, evolved, anal retentives like you sure do appreciate your courtesy.

We were all just fuckin' round and laughin, watchin Mel Brooks and Richard Pryor, till you figured out we should be appalled.

[baafie]

Why is it that every argument you involve yourself you eventually start talking about atheism? Not that I care one way or the other, but it seems you might as well start talking about pink elephants and painting toe nails in support of your argument.

[rockouthippie]

The Atheist religion, formulated with devout self righteous hedonism, is the basis of all watadoos arguments.

[watadoo]

Originally posted by baafie
Why is it that every argument you involve yourself you eventually start talking about atheism? Not that I care one way or the other, but it seems you might as well start talking about pink elephants and painting toe nails in support of your argument.

Yeah, tre' bizarrre. I fully understand ROH hates my very existance sinc I am his polor opposite and hatred of anything and anyone he doesn't undestand is his meat and potatoes, but I don't understand what my belief or non-belief in magical beings has to do with anything or has any impact on anyone other than myself. Fear and loathing, as HST used to say.

[rockouthippie]

Yes, I am disturbed about people that don't like meat and potatoes. I'm also disturbed because now that the country has solved it's dire social issues that people need to focus on minutia.

It's because so many people made such a good living rabble rousing that we now need to focus on trivia. Right down to making sure that rappers don't use the n-word to each other.

Lacking real issues, we can now focus on getting really thin skinned.

[baafie]

Originally posted by rockouthippie
You could call em names. Just don't give em a cyanide shower or tat serial numbers on em' and they're happy. It's the difference between knowing what real oppression is and making some bullshit up to get a free ride.
Just like black people won't mind if you call them "boy" or "nigger", just so long as you don't whip them, right? :rolleyes:

[Paul_Bags]

Just, wow. ROH, give up the hate and try understanding where other people are coming from. You don't have to like it, just understand it. It's called tolerance, and you can live a much more fulfilling life if your not worrying about how other people live theirs.

[rockouthippie]

Originally posted by baafie
Just like black people won't mind if you call them "boy" or "nigger", just so long as you don't whip them, right? :rolleyes:

We'll leave it to white liberals like yourself to keep "African Americans" from calling each other "nigger".

Originally posted by Paul_Bags
It's called tolerance, and you can live a much more fulfilling life if your not worrying about how other people live theirs.


I'm supposed to understand that the "African American" that ripped off my lawnmower is a victim and that if I utter a racial epithet to describe the little cocksucker, I am being intolerant. In the last few years, even if I was a black victim of the lawnmower thief, I'd have to maintain political correctness.

Which is more reasonable? My attitude that people should be treated as equals, or the attitude of molly coddling liberals who need to support an invented new victim group? People that get called names! Boo Hoo!

If I come back from the dead in 200 years, am I still going to find the same "victims" that didn't get a fair shake because of a permanent suntan? Are women still going to be the victims of having to put up with some testosterone?

Turn your hat around, go to college, get a job!

Worked for Obama!

This brings to mind some feminist garbage that I endured a while ago. My friend's wife Laurie was bitching that her boss was a man. I know her boss. I pointed out that when Laurie was screwing around flunking out of college (which her parent's paid for 100% including a new car), her boss was working 2 jobs, riding a $25 bicycle, tutoring and getting on the Honor Roll.

A victim for sure :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Paul_Bags
You don't have to like it, just understand it.

I do understand it. It's that look in their eyes like I owe them money.

[Paul_Bags]

So people ripping off other people is justification for racism? Misdirecting your anger for an individual who stole your property onto a racial basis is just sick and twisted. 95% of people are decent people just trying to get by, regardless of race or creed. It might appear otherwise, since your more likely to notice those who arn't like yourself. Whats the tally of hate now, blacks, jews, and women?

Did you ever stop to think the 'look in thier eyes' was just searching for some respect and humanity in yours?

[rockouthippie]

So people ripping off other people is justification for racism?

So racism is an excuse for ripping people off?

You seem to have forgotten your own Catholic slurs on this forum. Convenient.

I'm really not prejudice, but I sure as hell have seen a lot of excuses made because someone was (insert politically correct victim).

And careers made from liberal activism touting the fact that (insert politically correct victim) is second rate and needs our help.

Boo Hoo!

In my lifetime, tell me how abused you are because you are a member of (insert politically correct victim) and I'll play you a song on the worlds tiniest violin and make you a cup of coffee unless you steal my lawnmower :)

[Paul_Bags]

Originally posted by rockouthippie
You seem to have forgotten your own Catholic slurs on this forum. Convenient.
For anyone interested, link. (http://forums.winamp.com/showthread.php?postid=2503507#post2503507) Which I apologized for. I was trying to think of a group that advocated abstinence only, my wording is regrettable.

Originally posted by rockouthippie
...I sure as hell have seen a lot of excuses made because someone was (insert politically correct victim).

And careers made from liberal activism touting the fact that (insert politically correct victim) is second rate and needs our help.
You word it as fact that they are second rate and that you don't care, I hope this is not how you intended it. Assigning help based on race is wrong too, it's the act of being unfair to a particular group that I have a problem with. I find it contrary to any goal to remove racism from society. I have no problem with needs-based social welfare, which would presumably help those same people and anyone else unlucky enough to have a different skin color.

[rockouthippie]

Originally posted by Paul_Bags
You word it as fact that they are second rate and that you don't care, I hope this is not how you intended it.

No. I don't think people are second rate. But liberals do. Poor (insert politically correct victims) ... despite legal equality.... despite affirmative action...

Poor poor poor victims that couldn't possibly get by without a "program".

Hell, to listen to em' you'd think (insert politically correct victim) couldn't tie their shoes or repulse an insult with an appropriate "Screw You!".

It's a long, long way from the civil rights heroes who were fighting real oppression and injustice.