Skinning...a new trend?

[D&B]

The arena has changed. Back in 2.x and before, there wasnt much you could do, and many many high quality skins were created, with some incredible designs.

WA3 has freeform skinning, which is awesome. Now a single skin often has a designer (or someone who just came up with the concept), someone who codes the XML, and someone else doing the scripting.

I have seen some awesome skins pop up, like CornerAmp, which automatically will stick to the corner you drag it to.

I was just wondering something. For example, with cornerAmp, I think its rad, but I dont really like the way it looks. Not the shape, but just the skin part. So, one could easily skin it.

What Im saying is, we can have a whole new world on our hands, where several people come up with an awesome design and pull it off, and other people just alter it 2.x style. Would this offend you skin authors/coders? If I were, to example, take a skin you made, change its look, and release it as a variation, but still give credit to the original creators?

[Gonzotek]

I think it should be each individual skinner's choice as to whether or not anyone else should be allowed to distribute modifications to it. There's nothing in the skinning spec stopping you from modifying it for your own personal use, of course. But if a skinner was particularly proud of his graphics, and didn't want them to be modified and distributed, I would accept that as his right to control his creation.

That said, I personnally don't care what you do with anything I've ever made (or will make, concerning WA). Just credit me for the parts that are mine.

-=Gonzotek=-

[neverknown]

I would be highly pissed off if someone changed my design to fit "their" desire

[mrsamitk]

Originally posted by neverknown
I would be highly pissed off if someone changed my design to fit "their" desire

I wouldn't mind if they modify and keep it to themselves......but i would be highly pissed of if someone changed my design to fit "their" desire and then release it to public!

[D&B]

But why?

As long as they sighted you as the original designer, who cares? I mean, say you come up with a great idea, great scripting and shape and everything and you give it a very organic or woodlike look. I, myself, hate looks like that. If I were to change it to a futuristic metal or glasslike look, and release it online as a variation, sighitng you as the original designer , you would still have a problem with it?

[ertmann|CPH]

Originally posted by neverknown
I would be highly pissed off if someone changed my design to fit "their" desire

i hope you don't use litestep then, heh :p

[neverknown]

Cause it's our creation if you don't like it don't use it but dont change MY skin and distrubite it. I am a pretty established designer and work hard to do what I do and it is offending if someone changed my shit.

[s0be]

geez, replace design with program, and you have the open source argument. My View is, respect the author's requests. ANYTHING I ever publish, people can do whatever they want to it, if they throw in somehwere 'thanks to s0be' I'm happy. But, I just do this as a passtime and physics is my forte.... if I had like REAL training with PCs or graphic arts I might be annoyed, but complimented in a way.

/*
S0Be
*/

[QHOBBES]

screw you neverknown, i changed something in a skin and the author
ended up using it. we all have opinions, it's just some peoples
opinions are right, and some are wrong.

[DogWings]

I see a lot of "MY" skin and "MY" design language in some of these posts. I would say if you're so possessive about "YOUR" skin, then keep it on "YOUR" computer where nobody can ever hurt it. Be miserly with the S.O.B. and you won't have to worry... ya greedy bastard!

Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery, so I hope that some of these people will relax and not get all up in arms about something that is only what you make of it. If it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen, and only you can choose to let it piss you off or to feel good because you came up with something people really like. Compared with some of the problems in the world, this seems like a dumb thing to get all upset about.

[Hollow]

not that i have a bunch of skins or anything but just so i am credited and its not released as fully by someone else.

i think this could bring up a new wrinkle as to what a rip is. just a thought.

[mavsman]

Anyone can do anything they want with anything I make, as long as they don't distribute it without my approval. If it's cool, I'll let them release it, or integrate into my own design and give them thanks.
I think you should always respect the wishes the creator.

[neverknown]

I guess since I am a designer I come from a diffrent view I put my creativity my life experince all of that into making a unique design and someone to change that and distribute it is just wrong and is not to be done sorry if you think that's wrongs but guess what that's the real world.

[Flynnz]

I completely agree with DogWings' post (except I don't endorse the "S.O.B" & "greedy bastard" parts). It outlines pretty well my feelings on the matter.

I, however, am not an artist.. I am not a creator; I'm a user. But the way some obsess over this just seems ridiculously silly to me--I think it boils down to one thing: Are you creating art* FOR the people/because you enjoy it or simply to get the people's approval/praise/recognition?

And in slightly less abstract terms: I would be so happy to be witness to a community where people remix and freely distribute winamp skins. Coupled with a good system for distribution, that would kick ASS (not to mention, draw in more artists and eventually yield a more productive, even more creative community).

Sadly though, 'tis not the way of our society. It's basic human nature to worry first about our own self-interest--it's how we've survived after all. But uhh.. yeah. (Been reading too much about cultural evolution.) If you can see where I was going with this, then good for you; if not.. sorry. I'm too tired to finish explaining it. This post might already be too long for some of you, I suppose.

Should go without saying, but these are just my thoughts, shared as honestly and clearly as I am able to at this moment in time, and are not intended to offend anyone.

* Yes yes, of course I'm using art very broadly here.. to encompass just about anything one might create that the masses can use/appreciate.

[DogWings]

I respect your opinion neverknown, and I understand where you're coming from. My point is, why get upset about something that is inevitable? People are bound to take designs and alter them, and they are then likely to publish the skin. It's just the way some people are, and nothing will change it.

You don't have any way to control what happens when the skin leaves your hands. If you have made the choice to release the skin into general circulation, knowing that there are people who will modify your design, then you've got nobody to blame but yourself when it happens. Getting upset about it is only going to make you feel bad, and why would you want to make yourself feel bad?

I personally agree with mavsman, you should always respect the wishes of the creator. Unfortunately, a lot of people think differently. And THAT, also, is the real world.

[mavsman]

I can't help myself. If anyone tries to rip my skin, In the RoundAMP, they'll have to be smart enough to find the easter egg that Evil Pumpkin and I hid in it to specifically combat skin ripping.

[theancient]

Originally posted by DogWings
My point is, why get upset about something that is inevitable? People are bound to take designs and alter them, and they are then likely to publish the skin.To take the software example, not every organization that publishes their source code grants an unlimited licence on that source code. Even the GPL, considered a relatively "open" licence, does not allow people to put the code in a closed commercial application. Other licences are more restrictive. Screencap OS X and make a skin out of that, and Apple's lawyers will be in touch. I'm not sure what rules apply if a licence terms aren't specified, but the original author would presumably have a copyright claim on the original art and/or code.

The point is, the there's more to it than ethics; there could be legal implications as well.

[HarderBeatz]

I think there should be some password system for skincreators that don't want there skin to be copied or modified in any way. Like putting a password on the .wal file. And if someone really want to change things he can still ask the creator for the password.

[will]

Originally posted by HarderBeatz
I think there should be some password system for skincreators that don't want there skin to be copied or modified in any way. Like putting a password on the .wal file. And if someone really want to change things he can still ask the creator for the password. and how would winamp get the files out of the wal file without the password?

[neverknown]

You guys don't understand its not just a simple thing that has no meaning to us. When you create something you are putting everything into it and then someone changing it just changes everything. Also yes it will happen but still is bad you guys are too laid back hehe.

[HarderBeatz]

There you've got a point willfisher never thought of that. ;)

[Flynnz]

It always seems like people just ignore my posts...

[lordkhan]

I read your post Flynnz. :)

I have been noticing a lot of creative people getting upset over the loss of credit or any kind of deviation from factual information about their works. often times their reactions seem unneccesarily harsh. as i am somewhat of a creator myself (but have never published anything) i can see, to an extent, where this aggressive front may be coming from.

I say try to tone down any critisizm than you may want to make about any one's opinion but remember not to stray to far from your true opinion. people have the ability to change and in this also have the ability to recognise change but one person may find this more difficult than another. just remember to maintain a suitable level of respect and hopefully we can all enjoy the maximum number of inovatively designed, efficiently coded, and thoughtfully scripted skins possible! :D

And as for that whole kick on cultural evolution, despite our despicable surroundings you might be surprised by some of the characters that have never the less been blooming briliantly.

[Gonzotek]

I read it Flynnz.

Here's how I see things: I'm not going to take something like "The David" and chisel my initials on it, then attempt to pass it off as...
The Cassidy", by A. Cassidy Napoli, based on "The David" by Michelangelo. It wouldn't be a tribute, it's a ripoff.

Or if I took a Picasso and put a new frame on it, it's still a Picasso. The skinners who want their art to not be messed with should be totally respected, because they were kind enough to let you see the art in the first place. Like I said before, if you want to mod it for your own use, what's stopping you?


BUT, on the other hand, if a skinner freely gives his permission to mod his skins, that ought to be taken advantage of and encouraged. There are more than enough willing to do that.


On the idea of password protection: Here's a way to do that.
Use a password protected zip, and a tool to create PGP sig out of the password. There would be a public Winamp3 key, and each skinner would have his own public personal key. Then the tool would add the pgp-d password to the comment's section of the file (or create a header). Then Winamp could decrypt the wal without needing to know the skinners password, and other people couldn't. A new extension could be even be used (.wae = .wal-encrypted), so backward compatibility wouldn't be an issue.

-=Gonzotek=-

[bobo]

i would be really pissed if someone changed a design of mine without asking me. if a designer dont want people to modify his stuff you will just have to accept that.

if some wa3 skins were protected so i couldnt open the .wal, ive never even would have considered starting a wa3skin, since i couldnt see how it was done

[PhotoFx]

well, i don't think i would care if someone changed my stuff around, but i think the best way to prevent stuff like that is to make it so that any changes and it just isn't as good. Make it as good as it can be, and why should anyone bother?

[D&B]

Originally posted by LyleWilson
screw you neverknown, i changed something in a skin and the author
ended up using it. we all have opinions, it's just some peoples
opinions are right, and some are wrong.
Hey, thats not right. See the way I see it, if someone did wanted their skin modified, then that should be respected. I was just wondering his reason why. I work in the graphic design industry, I slightly understand his position.
I guess he creates skins for other reasons this most people. If I created a great skin (which I am not original enough to do) and saw people enjoying it in one form or another, then I wouldnt care, unless they start claiming they made it all.


Originally posted by Flynnz

And in slightly less abstract terms: I would be so happy to be witness to a community where people remix and freely distribute winamp skins. Coupled with a good system for distribution, that would kick ASS (not to mention, draw in more artists and eventually yield a more productive, even more creative community).


And that was my point. I would like that too, and I posted it here wondering how todays leading WA3 skinners thought about the idea...