One Nation, Unconstitutional...

[dollerspark]

WARNING: THIS THREAD CONTAINS CONTENT NOT SUITABLE FOR MORONS AND THE CLOSE-MINDED, INTELLIGENT INTELLECTAUL DISCRESION ADVISED.

Seriously though, if you think you might be offended by this thread dealing with religion and government, then please either do not read it, or read it and don't reply/relpy nicely. I do not intend to offend, or to start a flamer thread.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/06/26/pledge.allegiance/index.html

So what do you think about that? People are trying to take the words "under God" out of the Pledge of Alleigance because it's "unconstitutional." And I know this doesn't really apply to those of us that aren't American, but I'm sure that they'll have plenty of intelligent things to say (in other words, Bilbo stay out :D)

I personally think that those words need to go. They shouldn't have even been put there in the first place! It is very exclusional to those who don't believe in God, or believe in like Allah or a god from a different religion. Like it says in the article:

The Pledge, as currently codified, is an impermissible government endorsement of religion because it sends a message to unbelievers 'that they are outsiders, not full members of the political community, and an accompanying message to adherents that they are insiders, favored members of the political community.'

And that's very true. Some believer's may not think it, but how patriotic would it make them feel if they were reciting the pledge and had to say "under Buddha"?!

An argument that those fighting to keep the words have is that "the God being spoken of is not a religious God, more of a high political figure." Even so, that would simply imply that the US was a dictatorship!

The words need to go. No one NEEDs them to be there. They WANT them there, yet it is making other PROUD AMERICANS angry. It's time to give everyone equal rights, not just those who believe in God. Dump the words. This is the kind of thing that makes the United States feel not very united...

[Xerxes]

America was not founded to be a haven of the politically correct, it was founded by people who believed in a higher power. Not all of them were christians either- Thomas Jefferson, the same man that wrote extensively about the freedom of religion, was an agnostic.

This ruling is just another sign of the moral decay taking place in the western world.

But as I said in the other thread about the same topic, the ruling was made in a very liberal district of the US (9th Circuit, San Fran court) and will be overturned when it hits the Supreme court. So i'm not outraged.... yet.

[deadrabbit]

morals cannot be dictated by the government. an individual needs to create his/her own set of morals. laws are based on moral beliefs, at the most basic level, laws try to allow people of varying beliefs to live together in harmony . . . being told that there is a god is not going to help us at all

[incubus*chick]

/me doesn't care

[Jon Deaux]

Are you aware that in most states belief in a supreme being is a requirement of office? (it's in the fine print)
I believe the statement of belief in a supreme being will remain in the pledge as it should.
We needn't sacrifice tradition for political correctness.
Oh, and hang the judge that rules any other way on the morning after the people re-take our country. J:.D:.

[dollerspark]

I'm with Xerxes, if this case gets turned over, I'll be pretty pissed!

Also, it mentions in the article the problems with some patriotic songs, and US currency (which for those of you who don't know, has the words "In God We Trust"), but all I've got to say is, you shouldn't have made so many things that are patriotic, unconstitutional. Now because of a few government God-lovers, millions of people aren't too happy and want things changed. Well I gotta tell ya', things better start changing or else those millions aren't going to be proud of being an American. Smooth move.

Originally posted by Jon Deaux
Are you aware that in most states belief in a supreme being is a requirement of office? (it's in the fine print)

That doesn't justify it at all. In fact, that just shows more signs of how closed-minded and excluding our government can be.

Originally posted by Jon Deaux
We needn't sacrifice tradition for political correctness.

Tradition doesn't justify at all either. Just because it's been that way for a long period of time, that doesn't all of a sudden make it right. What if the killing of minorities every month became a tradition, would that make it right?

And I do think that political correctness is important. If everything was politically incorrect, our sociecty would be so unsound finding every loophole there was in the constitution and so forth. Political correctness maintains organization.

Originally posted by Jon Deaux
Oh, and hang the judge that rules any other way on the morning after the people re-take our country. J:.D:.

Well, let me tell you that no one is trying to "take over the country" by doing this. We are simply trying to give back the right to every American who deserves it, we sure aren't trying to take any rights away.

How does it feel to know that something that you WANT, not NEED, WANT, is angering a great portion of the American population? Because I can tell you right now how it feels to feel like you don't have as many right simply because of what you believe.

I am with those fighting to respect the ideas listed in the constitution, the very Constitution which formed our country into the great freedom-loving and equal-rights bearing country which it was made to be, not the Pledge of Alleigance. It's time for equal rights to be a reality, not a dream. Nonbelievers DESERVE just as many rights as believers.

A good example of one of those people who didn't believe in equal rights and rose into power, Hitler. I'm not saying that the US will suddenly kill all nonbelievers, but we'd better be careful what happens...

[Xerxes]

"In god we Trust", patriotic songs, etc etc is the result of centuries of tradition in a nation that historically has been dominated by Western religion i.e. Christian... not deliberate efforts to bend the constitution. Nobody ever thought these things were unconstitutional because they were Christian themselves.

People still place their hand on the bible when they are sworn in as witnesses for the jury system, or sworn in as president. Not the Koran, not Darwin's Origin of Species, not the Bhagavad Gita. The idea of democracy as envisioned by the founders was that basic things such as a trial by peers or voting for president were validated because everyone had a moral compass provided by the higher power.

As the founders wrote "All humans are endowed with certain unalienable rights, among these, life, libery and the pursuit of happiness" - but the same decleration of independence ALSO says that these rights are "endowed by the creator".

By your arguments, the founding documents of America are unconstitutional, as well.

[papadoc]

Originally posted by dollerspark
I'm with Xerxes, if this case gets turned over, I'll be pretty pissed!
Dollarspeak, I'm afraid you can't be with Xerxes.
Xerxes and you have nothing in common on this issue.
You apparently didn't read his post to well.

Two things I'd ask in response to your post:

1. In order to give everyone equal rights,
you want to take away the rights of those,
who want to say the Pledge of Allegiance,
like it's been said forever?

2. If you're so against the word God being used,
why are you spelling it with a capital G?

I, like Xerxes, am not worried about it.
The Supreme Court will throw this one right out,
as they should.

[John M]

/me pastes 'PROUD TO BE CONSERVATIVE' bumper sticker on forehead.

that should pretty much explain where i stand on this.

[dollerspark]

Originally posted by papadoc

Dollarspeak, I'm afraid you can't be with Xerxes.
Xerxes and you have nothing in common on this issue.
You apparently didn't read his post to well.

I suppose I didn't. I sincerly apologize for doing do.

Originally posted by papadoc
Two things I'd ask in response to your post:

1. In order to give everyone equal rights,
you want to take away the rights of those,
who want to say the Pledge of Allegiance,
like it's been said forever?

2. If you're so against the word God being used,
why are you spelling it with a capital G?

I, like Xerxes, am not worried about it.
The Supreme Court will throw this one right out.

1) I don't believe taking those words out is suddenly taking away the rights of those who believe in God. Like I've been stressing, those words are WANTED, not NEEDED. If you would be so kind as to tell me why those religions NEED to have those words in the POA, I would be very obliged, because all my life I have never seen anywhere that it's the right of God-believing religions to have those words in the constitution.

Religion and Government shouldn't be together in the first place.

2) I say God with a capital G out of those for respect for those who believe. I would hope that believers would show me the same respect, in return.

[Sandman2012]

See my response in the other thread. (http://forums.winamp.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=92500)

[Xerxes]

Originally posted by dollerspark

I would hope that believers would show me the same respect, in return.

It's generally bad syntax to capitalize "Nothing" :confused:

[chevythunder]

Me thinks our tax money at work... making the liberals happy...

<<< is Christian... dont take my rights either bro...

[Jon Deaux]

Originally posted by Jon Deaux
Are you aware that in most states belief in a supreme being is a requirement of office? (it's in the fine print)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"That doesn't justify it at all. In fact, that just shows more signs of how closed-minded and excluding our government can be."

It most certainly does not, nor must it, I posted that information as an aside so that you might better understand my point, which I believe you have missed entirely...which is that no justification is needed.
Perhaps you are not aware of the fact that this is a Christian nation.
It was founded by ETHNIC CHRISTIANS just like me.
I'm not religious, but I am Christian.
The pledge does not say that you must believe in the Christian God though, nor does anyone else.
When I went through my atheist phase I felt the resentment which keeps you from honoring so simple a tradition as reciting the pledge. Such things are little more than respect.
I decided atheism was stupidly egotistical, and so became an gnostic, I am gnostic because I know I do not know.
I am not agnostic because I seek truth, not closure.
J:.D:.

[dollerspark]

JD is agnostic?

Oh.

I am agnostic (I am, seriously).

I would expect to hear that "this is a Christian nation" from a strict Xtian.

I, personally, believe otherwise. Although some of the founding fathers may have been Xtian, the country they set up was not. The country they set up was a free-religion country. Hell, that's why they left the British in the first place, to seek religious freedom!

[deadrabbit]

dollerspark all the way!

the only thing scarier than the US the way i see it now is the US as a "christian nation"

[Jon Deaux]

"I would expect to hear that "this is a Christian nation" from a strict Xtian."

Religious christians take liberty with Christianity that tend to make us look bad.
As I stated, I'm an ethnic Christian, I have a Christian name (not a religious Christian), and yes, we did come here for reasons of religious freedom and established our country, being tolerant of religions other than our own is part of the legacy of our struggle for freedom.
We believe in freedom of religion, and have a blood investment in it.
Great Spirit, Allah, Jesus, Baal, the names just go on and on.
God simplifies things.
God is the great unknowable.
I do know that I do not know.
I believe the agnostic path to gnosticism to be the path of light.
I instantly knew this guy:
http://www.supremebeing.com/
was not *THE* Supreme Being because of his music player choices.
Yes! THE TRUE GOD LOVES WINAMP!
J:.D:.
An relatively holy cop-out.