Dunno were else to put this
 

honestly.. i think that people posting avs presets in componants section is NOT fair people who work hard in c++ to make some exelemt plugs are being ignored because of these avs presets that are flooding the database.. personaly, i think there should be a whole seperate thing for avs presets. and that way, every1 gets the credit they deserve.

and, why are there "ALL NEW FOR WINAMP 3", when there the exact same thing from winamp2 avs, exept there in the new database? this is realy begining to suck...

any1 else think the same?

hope some action is taken

Bizzy

yes, exactly. AVS should be seperated... exspecally since they DO work with both Winamp2 and Winamp3. the database has been flooded with alot of the same stuff that was already there in the WA2 database, and its putting all of the great components that have been worked on for months out of view completly.

what he said..

enuff is enuff, do something about this as all the components disapears among all those avs presets..
the components section will be flooded with avs presets just like the wa2 skins section was/is flooded with skinner.exe skins..

extremely annoying to say the least..

I'm not saying that avs presets aren't good, but they really don't belong in the components section, as they really are their own kinda thing..

-Plague

couldnt agree more, nuff said

Wrong forum fellas, please don't clutter this forum up, it's, the review guys work hard enuff without having to keep checking this forum for new post.

Talk to the AVS review people, they were supposed to be cleaning this mess up, check the presets forums.

Here here! I totally support "AVS Preset Segregation" or APS as I like to call it! Keep them in their own category.

I'd be more than willing to spend a few hours a week mining the db for presets and moving them into the proper place. Maybe if admin knows there are enough volunteers we can get the ball rolling on this, anyone else want to volunteer?

-=Gonzotek=-

me.

id be glad to offer my self to help..

Re: Dunno were else to put this
 

as a c++ programmer and an avs artist i can honestly tell you that if anything avs presets are much harder to make (unless you are talking about noobish presets which do clutter everything up and should be banned fullstop), simply because it is a huge struggle with framerate and because the code is so limited. i could make any of my avs presets in c++ in probably half the time and have them run at 10-20x the framerate too

yes, that makes perfect sense. in a way an avs preset is like a sub plugin for a specific plugin so it isn't on the same level as an actual component. this is all more than likely the result of laziness on the part of the responsibles.

I agree with Jheriko: AVS presets can be a lot harder than C++ because you're working in a limited environment.

And anyway, my latest work is a mix of C++ (APEs) and AVS anyway :D

The Winamp people are looking into getting a separate AVS category. I agree, AVS should be in it's own category.

Funny how half the people who responded to this post don't ever visit the AVS forums.

I'm fairly sure that plugs never get seen by anyone at nullsoft - their servers are programmed so that plugs simply get delayed 4-6 wks before they're posted.

And I thought AVS HAD it's own category...called AVS presets?

Some of us visit, but just don't post.

uhm, there is an avs section in components, what's the problem?

I mean separate from plugins, 'cause they're not plugins. Way back when, before winamp3, I never got to see visulalizers other than winamp in the most recent list because the volume of AVS being pumped out just kept shoving the rest off the bottom of the list.

Sure, there IS an AVS section, but they're everywhere else too, so if I wanted to find visualizers that WEREN'T AVS, how would I be able to see them? search for "viualizer & !avs"? </rhetorical question> Right now, there is no easy way to browse or search for non-AVS vis plugs. More importantly, in Winamp2's database at least, the AVS presets had wormed their way into input, output, dsp, pretty much all categories. We want a team of volunteers (ala Skin Review) to sort out the db and keep the presets in the proper category.

And I'm another who doesn't post in this particular forum, but I do visit fairly often.

-=Gonzotek=-

They aren't technically plugins, but they still have the same function as other visualizations. Frankly, you're being really arrogant. AVSers work hard to make presets, too. And 90% of really good presets get ignored because the Nullsoft people will post anything - even if it doesn't work properly - and all the good presets get bumped down before they can get good ratings.
Also, I seriously doubt many of you hardcore C++ programmers could pull off a decent AVS preset. Not to knock C++ - AVS is just a different skill. Just like most of us hardcore AVS scripters couldn't pull off a decent 'real' plugin.

something else im starting to see more and more of is Winamp2 plugins being posted as Winamp3 components and then they jsut say it requires the WA2PM. i mean, WTF? if its Winamp2, its Winamp2, not Winamp3. alot of non-component things are being posted more and more often in the database. next, people are going to be posting Winamp2 skins as Winamp3 skins, or are they already doing this? i dont keep up with the skinning stuff all that much...

and for all of you that say "oooo.. AVS takes alot of effort too, and its harder than C++"... well, ya see, i highly doubt this. the main reason why i complain about the AVS flood is because i DO do both C++ and AVS. i can whip out AVS presets over-night, while making components, well... those just take time because of all the debugging of the code.

Winamp2 has a site, Winamp3 has a site, and AVS should have its own site as well, as it isnt just for either. AVS presets work on both.

Basically someone needs to get off his/her lazy ass and move all the AVSes into the AVS section ;). Problem solved :P.

There's tons of people downloading presets while thinking they're regular plug-ins, who then complain it 'doesn't do anything'.

Oh and:
I think I can call myself very experienced in both AVS and C++, and once you above a certain level, AVS becomes harder. That's the fun part...

For example for my next pack, I made a voxel landscape renderer in pure AVS, without extra APEs. Doing it in C++ would've been a lot, lot easier, but then it wouldn't be as cool.

Of course I agree you don't have to be rocket scientist to make presets. The problem is that it's simply hard to make un-cool presets, because AVS is a very flexible piece of software. People click a few buttons, think they've made something cool and then submit it as their own special presets.

But this is a symptom in almost every online publishing community really.

moving them to their existing section isnt the answer. we need them on their own site. look at the "top 10 components for winamp3" and tell me how many are AVS presets? and then look at the "top 10 plugins for winamp2" and tell me how many are AVS presets? and then tell me how many are the SAME presets?

they simply are just flooding EVERYTHING.

Seriously, without AVS I doubt much would get published in the way of components. Besides, the top components list simply lists the things people like most. Sound like you're a bit upset that your work (or someone elses) isn't being appreciated as much.

The same could be said for all the stupid, horrible translations by the way. I don't want a gazillion fan-made crappy translations full of bad spelling and dialect: I want one, quality translation made by a person with a degree in that language. For example, if a localised Windows has opted not to literally translate a term, then the localised Winamp should do the same. They're flooding everything!

And what about those stupid Wildtangent plug-ins? I'm not a hormone raging straight male teen, so I have no interest in watching polygon-boobs shake around the screen. They're flooding everything! I wish I could search for "visualiser & !wildtangent" </rhetorical>.

Sounds to me like Winamp just needs to revamp its taxonomy system. A 'top 10 per category' would fix the problems you describe. And they need to start using the bloody 1-star and 2-star ratings. Anything that doesn't suck as much as a black-hole gets 3+ stars.

i agree about the translations, but the only difference about those tho, is that they are winamp specific. a winamp2 language pack and a winamp3 local are 2 completly different things, unlike AVS presets wich work with AVS on WA2 or WA3.

I think most of us would agree the system does need a revamping, but how much can we actually ask of them? What I'm advocating in the more immediate sense is volunteers to go through the db and put things where they belong. Once the current system is as cleaned up as it can be, maybe it would be easier to move over to a new system. But, regardless, presets belong with presets, and translations with translations, and output with output, etc. It really doesn't matter how much work a c++ plug or an AVS preset requires, sometimes I want one, and sometimes another, AND it's possible NOW for me to get that experience, except for the fact that the presets are in categories they don't belong in.

If the skin review team can completely remove skins (for good reasons of course) why can't a team be formed to simply categorize components/plugs/presets/etc. appropriately? Where's the problem?

-=Gonzotek=-

Problem: none of the people here have any moderating powers or influence whatsoever. Except maybe Rovastar.

Uhh...hello? The best way to deal with it IS to simply move the AVS presets and take better care of putting plugins in their proper place. If you make a seperate website for them nothing's going to change. Why do you think our unworthy AVS presets are getting published in your holy DLL section in the first place? The people publishing them aren't paying attention to where they're putting them, and the people putting them into that section aren't paying any attention to what section they need to be in in the first place.

UnConeD is right. AVS is a LOT harder than C++, and I can whip out a C++ program overnight. Except that I'm not any good at C++, and I only do the simple things to make a program. You, most likely, are no good at AVS and only do the simple things to make a preset. In other words, AVS can be harder than C++. When (and if) it ever gets fixed in the next version, AVS is going to be much easier, but until then you can't say that AVS is for n00bs who are too lazy to make a DLL.

Finally, you're 'holier than thou' approach to visualizations is REALLY starting to piss me off. You write a DLL that's faster, more user-friendly, and more customizeable than AVS, then you can use that attitude. There's about a snowball's chance in hell of that ever happening, so you can shut the fuck up about your plugins being so much better than AVS presets.
The fact remains that the visualizations are just that - VISUALIZATIONS. They aren't about the code (no matter what Jheriko says). If someone has a vision they recieved from God for the perfect way to visualize music, it really doesn't matter in the long run whether he writes a DLL or scripts it for AVS. Now go crawl back into the cave you came from and lose the cocky attitude.

Atero: do you actually still post messages that don't insult half of the people participating in the thread?

This is exactly the kind of reply that people don't want to hear: that we're little bitches who don't care about other visualisers, as long as AVS presets get published.

In any case, I think the amount of volunteer work on this website is already huge. When do you actually see a Nullsoft member participating in the community and helping out? That's bothering me.

Not true. I am a moderator (if only a temp). I can ask. I've at least got a proven track record of being generally knowledgable about Winamp3 and helpful to Winamp3 skinners. I'm not saying I can move mountains or making myself out to be better than anyone else, but I can ask and get a definitive answer, at the very least. It couldn't hurt.

Cleaning up the db is the ONLY THING I'm trying to get accomplished. The database is messy and it doesn't make finding things easy. Forget about the words "AVS", "presets", "plugins", "translations", etc. Let's use Orange, Apple, and Peach. I don't want to go looking for a peach and only come up with apples. I personally hate apples, but love peaches. Someone else might like apples and oranges, but not peaches. Why can't we give 'em what we want? We can, but we need volunteers willing to do the work, because I highly doubt anyone else at Nullsoft has the time. But the forums have the manpower and the precedent has already been set with the skin review team for a user-based team to work with the db.

So, I'm asking as politely as I can, would anyone else be willing to help put things where they belong? Don't bother flaming me if you disagree: If I get enough positive responses, I will take a list of names to Nullsoft and ask for permission to do this. If I don't, I won't. It's as simple as that. If you don't want it to happen, simply stay mute and it probably won't and the db will get messier and more difficult to use than it already is.

-=Gonzotek=-

Just to reiterate, I would be willing to work on that.

I'm up for it to...
Though I cannot check it every day, I can check it from time to time and sort what needs to be sorted.

And this discussion is getting more and more rediculous..
It's never been about "MY component is BETTER than YOUR avs preset!!".
It's never been about which takes most time to make and which is more appreciated by the community.
wa3 components and avs presets just doesn't belong in the same category!

That has nothing to do with "which ones are the best?", they only needs to be separated, that's all.

Otherwise we could just throw the skins in there aswell, as maki isn't exactly easy either and "quality" skins take a long time and alot of effort to make.
And wa3 skins are actually more like wa3 compoents than avs presets are, since avs presets are the same for both wa2 and 3, while wa3 skins ONLY work on wa3, thus making them a component of wa3..

But they are listed in their own category anyway because it would be really stupid to do otherwise..

about avs presets having their own "webpage", well I believe he meant that they should have their own tab (Home | Winamp | Music | Skins | Components | AVS Presets | Videos | Community | Develop)

or maybe make a visualizer presets tab, for all the visualization dll's out there capable of having presets (milkdrop, avs, geiss?, smoke, G-Force, etc...)

either way, the presets are a part of ONE component, they are not components them selves thus not belonging in that tab at all...
No matter how hard they are to make or how good they are..

-Plague

Isn't it practically C++ with all of the hard stuff done for you? Its always looked just like that to me and it works pretty much the same.

That is really true... I've made one skin for wa3, it is shit and took me hours to complete.


But, yes, silly bickering is annoying, the whole point is that the mess that constitutes the Winamp 3 component database needs some fixing.

Maki has a C-like syntax, but it has a lot of limiting factors. It doesn't do file i/o and it has a rather small-ish set of built-in functions compared to a full fledged language, for example. For what it is intended for, it's pretty useful, and can always be extended wih components, but its natural limits sometimes force scripters to be particularly clever or creative. It's one of my favorite languages and I could wax ecstatic about it all day, but I'll just shut up now.

-=Gonzotek=-

UnConeD: Of coure not. I thought you knew me better than that ;)
I feel that me and the jackass that said 'and for all of you that say "oooo.. AVS takes alot of effort too, and its harder than C++"... well, ya see, i highly doubt this' are even after my post, thankyouverymuch.

Now then, if you're just looking to get the DB cleaned up, you go ahead and try to convince Nullsoft of doing so. Don't come complaining to the AVS forums about it - NONE of the people here post AVS presets in the skins section (just an example); I know this for a fact. Besides that, like I said before, I seriously doubt that Nullsoft cares where the plugins go in their database.

And Gonzo, that's exactly what I was getting at, in case I wasn't clear enough

this thread was moved here from the rip reporting forum because the mods didnt think it belonged in there and pointed here..

-Plague

I do them as we see them.

I see you're in the "Forums AVS Reviewers". http://forums.winamp.com/showgroups.php?s=

What does that give you/require of you? Does it allow you to move AVS presets out of incorrect locations? If so, then could more people sign up for it? If (as I suspect) it also requires us to be AVS reviewers I would have no problem with doing that work too, but that is that much more work to do before the db is cleaned up. I still think a team set up just for cleaning up the whole db (presets, plugins, and components) would be beneficial. People whose only job is to look for incorrectly categorized resources and re-categorize them. The skin database is much better for all the work the skin review team has put into it, compared to before they existed.

Anyway, cheers to you for doing what you can :).

-=Gonzotek=-

*Sigh* I have been after a separate area for this for the past year. In fact I have bookmarked an old thread about this so when/if Nullsoft make the changes that is on the wishlist backstage I can post there. :)

http://forums.winamp.com/showthread....&highlight=avs

Notice the dates. :);)

One day I will post there when the situation is resolved.:) Although probably not this decade.:)

Despite Steve's words of support I have no influence and have got sick of asking/bitching to be honest. (All the proper plug-in authors are miffed by this too and it has disheartened the few that are left to the point as people give up altogether possibly)

Goz, etc you are willing to try and if it happens that is great. It was meant to be sorted for WA3 website release but it just made matter worse if that was possible

Oh IMHO plug-in writing is a lot more difficult than doing presets (*sigh* at my unfinished plugin in the SDk framework). I know you have limited scope and you have to be more creative but you are not writing 40,000 lines of code and have to worry about you plugin working on multiple OS /graphics cards, etc, etc the list is long so long. Hell it is hard enough just beta testing the visualizations and those are the ones I do not write.:)

Being an AVS reviewer when you've never made an AVS preset is like being an auto mechanic when you've never owned a car. You want some guy who rides the bus every day to fix your muffler?

? Not at all.

I have reviewed music for record companies in my youth yet I cannot play an instrument. How can that be.

Maybe you think you should review only if you can make as good a visuals as you review.

Through my many years of wasting away looking at/studying visual stuff I have a good idea on what is decent or not.

Beside I could make a preset. I have done a few but not very good but my time and effort goes into new visualizations plug-ins at the moment.

I have only reviewed one or two packs anyway at the moment.

Still a little miffed as to why that attack came about. MAybe you prefered the good old days when AVS was modless and AVS packs were not getting reviewed. :confused: :confused: :confused: :(

How complicated a preset is doesn't really enter into the equation IMHO. What matters is reactivity, how well it works, and how good it looks. Complicated coding is good for bonus marks. ;) (but only if the the other three are fulfilled)

Given that criteria, anyone should be able to review a preset. Given a month, anyone can pick out the exceptional ones and the crap ones.

Yes, and I for one would not like somone who's never touched a saxophone to judge my music.