"We're sorry we can't employ you due to your future cancer problems"
 

I recently heard about DNA testing being used by employers to "weed" out individuals who may have pre-existing conditions which would result in above average health insurance bills and cause the employer to pay higher premiums.

In my opinion, the vast majorities in this day an age have a pre-existing medical condition of some kind. To think that the majority of us have, let's say, cancer just waiting for the opportunity to rise from it's slumber and bring us quicker to our deaths.

Scary, Orwellian shit.

That would suck. You lose your job because you may have a medical condition.

Is that even legal?

The world is insane. You're right, very Orwellian and scary.

I don't see the "dilemma" they describe. The Americans with Disabilities Act protects people from this type of discrimination, whether it involves an existing medical condition or disability, or predictive of any future one.

And the risk and liability of insuring an employee with a medical condition, whether or not they can "see it coming", is the responsibility of the employer and the insurance provider. The employee pays for this benefit through pre-tax deductions, with the rest of the employer-covered cost being a factor of compensation for the employee. In other words, when you accept a job with insurance benefits, the employer-paid portion of those benefits are part of your agreed-to compensation package.

I have the highest respect for advanced medical science being able to provide this type of service, but acting on it inappropriately, as in the case described in the article, will only get both employers and providers in legal trouble.

Working for an HR services company myself, I can tell you that you don't fuck with the Americans with Disabilities Act or the Civil Rights Act. Civil rights lawyers live to bury companies that do this kind of thing, and they've become very good at it.

yes. the company is protecting itself against having to have its insurance pay for your future cancer treatment. there are already companies who will fire you if you smoke for the same reason.

yet overhere in the Netherland , the laws have just changed , it is no longer allowed to place adds in papers where you state how old the applicant has to be.
(or on prefab fill in paperwork for applying to a job)

health checks are only allowed if the company can show that the nature of the job requires a perfect health.
that field has been covered by law already ( in the law about this, work areas that can do this are written down.)
so your average company that has a job opening for somebody in the post room isn't allowed by law to ask the applicant to take a health check nor can they put a limit on the age for applicant to react.

Here in the States, an employer can only ask/require your age to make sure they're not breaking child labor laws, places that serve liquor tend to only hire those at least 21, or those whose job would entail a lot of driving, tend to look for applicants at 21-25 starting age due to liability issues with insurances.

Same here for some jobs, like military, law enforcement, etc.

We technically have the same laws here, but, corporations are starting to find loopholes in laws that can let them get away with certain actions.

For instance, as an employer, I can not ask an applicant if they have children, but, I can ask them if they have childcare in place that will allow them to work the hours I want them to.

It's all in how you can get around the laws we have in place now.

Those are the companies that put civil rights lawyers' kids through college. ;) The few companies I've known that fired people for smoking outside of work were sued for significant amounts of money. I'd love it if my company did this to me. ;) But alas, being an HR management firm, they know the laws better than most companies do, and know better than to try this kind of thing.

It's much cheaper for a company to pay for a lifetime of cancer treatment than to cover the judgement in a single well-executed ADA lawsuit.

As Shy says, the only way most companies can determine the medical status of an employee or a potential hire is by using legal "loopholes", but in turn you can use those loopholes as well. Don't provide the company with any information they can use against you, no matter what they ask or how they ask it. Later, if/when a medical condition arises, the company or insurance provider trying to weasel out of covering you will be of much more interest to a court than what you said (or didn't say) in the job interview.

The vast majority of corporate benefit programs in the US can't even deny you employment or benefits because of a known, pre-existing condition. The laws are complex and convoluted, but are still mostly in favor of the employee, IF the employee knows how to "play" them.

not so much.

http://www.katc.com/Global/story.asp?S=2850659
and http://money.cnn.com/2005/03/11/pf/companiescrackdown/

Hum, well, Norway have not started to develop these kinda tendencies.. yet. You may be asked for current health status, but that's only legal for certain jobs, and they don't have access to records as far as I know.

The same with criminal records, it's only legal to ask for criminal record if some parts of it is relevant to the job. Eg. a person convicted for abusing kids could not work in kindergarden. You have to go to the police and get your criminal record, but only relevant info will show. If you have been convicted for burglary, it wouldn't show.

Such development that firms are checking for "possible" costs in the future cause of medical condition is morally wrong imo. I understand the firms too, but that would be to wack someone that could do a perfect job as any other "healthy" person, at least for some time... a person which is in a bad condition would be different, meh thinks.

Ah, but you have to wait for the end game in each case. A company firing someone for smoking, or not looking good, or having a foreign accent, or for any other controversial reason may seem like a loss for the (ex)employee, until the civil suit comes along and burns the company. I've seen it happen firsthand many, many times. The firing takes one minute and results in the loss of a job. The civil case takes much longer, but with a solid case it results in early retirement for the person who lost their job.

Excerpts:

"Weyco Inc., an employee benefits company, recently fired four workers because they refused to quit smoking -- during their off hours."

Weyco will have three serious problems with this...

--- (1) Losing several great employees because of an employment policy that's irrelevant to performance or work ethic.
--- (2) The negative impacts on morale and trust by remaining employees..."If they fired those people for smoking outside of work, what will they fire people for next? Walking too fast? Eating unhealthy lunches? Not using their turn signals?"
--- (3) The imminent legal headaches that will surely come in the form of lawsuits. Several approaches would work against them in a civil case. Relevance of off-the-job smoking is the obvious one, but the Americans with Disabilities Act could also be exercised, as smoking is known to be addictive. If it's illegal for a company to fire a drug addict once they've sought help, the same would be true for a smoker who shows any evidence that they are trying to quit. Even just "saying" they're trying to quit would be enough for a good lawyer to win the case and put the punitive-damage-hurts to Weyco.

"The Borgata, a hotel and ****** in Atlantic City, has threatened to let cocktail waitresses go if they let themselves go. Gaining 10 percent over their baseline body weight is grounds for dimissal."

This one's gone around for decades, popping up every now and then until a company gets seriously hurt or bankrupt over a lawsuit from a pissed off woman with good legal representation. Granted, ****** owners have good lawyers and usually a large asset base, so in this particular matter the bad publicity will hurt them more than financial losses. Either way, they'll bow out before the end game burns them.

"Google fired a worker for chronicling daily life at the search-engine in a little too much detail."

This is nothing more than an NDA issue. I'd have fired them too.

"Boeing CEO, Harry Stonecipher, was fired last week for having consensual sex with another company executive. (See Boeing CEO out in sex scandal.)"

This is nothing more than an issue of corporate policy, and one that's quite common among large companies. The exec (or actually both of them) should bow out gracefully, and not whine for facing the consequences if they don't.


I completely agree with companies who take a pro-active interest in the health of their employees, but in doing so there is a very delicate line between caring and violating civil liberties. Those companies who stray over that line, many of whom end up with their own news articles, most often end up the big losers.

If you're a good company, you offer gym discounts or onsite fitness facilities, offer a quit-smoking program, provide an onsite cafeteria with healthy food, and things of that nature. You don't kick yourself in the balls by firing people for being unhealthy. And yes, we have to control healthcare costs. I'm not against this goal, I'm against the methods some companies use to try to reach it.

A company in the US can do what they like with their employees, but they always pay the price for poor decisions. Whether it's punitive damages in a legal case, drops in the morale of remaining employees, attrition, controversy leading to bad publicity, etc. It's just like anything else...what comes around goes around. And firing someone for smoking off-premises and on their own time is blatantly asking to be sued. Such a company would actually be better off paying the person a fat settlement to leave quietly and sign a legal waiver, rather than face that person's wrath in a courtroom and lose much more.

And no, not all companies get burned over these kinds of matters. But enough do (in many different ways) that the risk is unacceptably high for an intelligently run corporation. Respect the line between caring and intruding. That's what a good company does.

Gattica anyone?

actually its not too bad a thing ... we could start a company that says, we will hire people who are laid off because some idiot don't want to take risk..

There are a lot of competent people out there who are mistreated because they "have a condition" ... I say .. let the companies screw the people, and have us people stand together build a business that will screw tham back.

That to me is the pro-active way of saying "f u" ... with all the perks accompanying it ... :)

Well it cant be illegal, since the process is probable still in the makings. Look how long the internet was out distributing free music & movies before the goverment tried to do something to protect copyrights.....just an example.

Actually it is illegal.

The Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990

Excerpt:

SEC. 102. DISCRIMINATION. 42 USC 12112.
(a) General Rule. No covered entity shall discriminate against a qualified individual with a disability because of the disability of such individual in regard to job application procedures, the hiring, advancement, or discharge of employees, employee compensation, job training, and other terms, conditions, and privileges of employment.

("covered entity" = the company)

Whether smoking outside of work is covered by this is a gray area. Essentially, the company would have to establish that...

(1) Smoking, in general, is not a disability (in order to remove the ADA as a defense argument). This is questionable either way.

(2) Smoking away from work interferes with the employee's ability to do their job. This is an especially tough argument. It would only be valid if the person were coughing up their lungs or otherwise had a lot of trouble functioning, at which point their smoking habit would likely be associated with a disability (and it would therefore become an ADA issue again).

So often either (1) or (2) are bound to be true, and therefore the company could not legally fire someone for smoking outside work.

And finally, what's not an ADA issue would be a wrongful termination issue for the company. As I've said, all the gray areas don't make it a walk in the park for a company. The risks are still too high to justify the action, regardless of how gray any of the areas are.

well (1) is true, the person can choose not to smoke, but truly disabled ppl can't really change. And unless smoking is considered some sort of medication, it can't be protected undre the ADA either.

True, so a company would be left with proving that smoking off-premises impeded an employee's performance. It wouldn't, unless the employee developed cancer, emphysema, etc. At which point they'd have a disability. It's a vicious circle.

All that covers disabilities that exist. What is the laws of discrimination to illness that haven't happened yet? I'm sorry, I see you point but from what I understand this "test" could become a possible PREEMPLOYMENT SCREENING like a drug test. No one's getting fired; just the employer has another way to legally discriminate. How many times do you see today, a certain race having a better chance to get certain types of work than others? You show me your "SEC. 102. DISCRIMINATION. 42 USC 12112" but all I see is bullshit. I've seen injured/sick employees "pushed" in to early retirement. Where's the justice.

Often I've noticed members of the human race seem to get many more jobs than members of other races. Where's the justice?

It's just not fair damnit! Im a Monkey for godsakes! I've mastered the art of reading & writing, yet you human get the best jobs & the chicks! None of you furless bastard can climb a tree like me! Where's the justice?

All joking aside you've yet to answer my question honestly. On a side note, if you white & have no problem getting a job, you have no room to comment. Your pressures of not knowing how to dance or pronounce spanish word doesn't hold water to true injustice. You laugh at me, but you've yet to explaine the injustice I've seen & personally felt.

Oh, really? I have no room to comment because I am white and I had no problem getting a job?

Actually, I had no problem getting a job because I'm a damn hard worker, and at 19, am a better programmer than anyone else in the damn company (and I started out fucking doing filing).

What about when you go and win over a white person (who, for this example, had higher SAT scores and grades than you) for financial assistance because you're not white? Or college admission? Or a job (say, as a firefighter)? Or a promotion?

Don't give me crap. If you really wanted to, you could get ahead in any area of life - very few people really try their hardest to do so. You're not. I'm not. If I were, I wouldn't have time to be posting this - I'd be reading fucking TCP/IP documentation or something.

...

If you had higher SAT why didn't you get a scholarship. a scholarship is something white people get for being smart. Every other race has to go through sports to try & get one. It must be good to be privileged.

There are laws against wrongful termination. Companies get sued over them all the time. And believe me, they suffer. Because you've never seen it happen doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Those of us in the field see it happen often.

There are specific laws that cover pre-employment testing, too.

No company can "legally discriminate". It happens a lot, and sometimes they get sued. I drive faster than the speed limit a lot too, and sometimes I get ticketed. No law is perfectly enforced. And employment discrimination is enforced much less than it needs to be. That doesn't mean we can't keep fighting it. Giving up is not an acceptable option.

Much less often than it did 20 years ago. But much more often than it will 20 years from now. Things are improving, but it's a slow process. Which makes it frustrating as hell and leaves a lot of people to suffer when they can't take down a company for doing it.

If I could make it happen faster, I would, believe me. But all we can do is the best we can to make things right. Better laws, and enforcement of existing laws. Taking action instead of taking it on the chin each time it happens. Sometimes there's not much you can do. But many times there is...people just don't know how. There are civil lawyers who will take pro-bono wrongful termination and employment discrimination cases specifically because they and their client can make a lot of money.

It's not my law. But I'm not going to call it bullshit and let people keep on getting hurt either. I've done a lot in the past 20 years to help people in these situations. The more people who do this, the less it'll happen. It's only when companies see no risk that they'll discriminate as they please. Give them a risk...make them scared. Companies aren't huge, untouchable monoliths. They're quite fallible. People just get disheartened when they don't see enough victories, and they give up. THAT'S the bullshit in my opinion.

I'm not saying it's the people's fault. On the contrary...when a company is wrong, WE need to make them pay. The employees...the people who get targeted by bad corporate management. There are lawyers who can help, and many won't require a dime of our money to get started. Class action cases open and settle by the dozen every day. If you're discriminated against, either in a job or in a job interview, then DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. If you try and lose, then at least you tried. Anyone who doesn't try at all doesn't get to whine about injustice.

All that is true in theory, but reality & what people get away with.... theres no real way to ever end it. Those of us less fortunate have to do what we alway have done & live with it. Boy that was rather depressing...

[*EDIT]

http://www.tshirthell.com/shirts/products/a341/a341.gif

There is only one sure way to lose.....To give up. As I said: if you don't try, you don't get to complain. I don't mean this towards you personally, but to anyone who pities themselves rather than fighting back no matter how hopeless the odds may seem.

Yes, racism still exists, but I refuse to believe that we'll have to live with it forever. That's unacceptable. I fight against it every goddamned day.

I've fired managers who discriminated against people because of their race, their age and their medical conditions. I get tired of fighting. But I'm not giving up because that's unacceptable. I'll die first.

I can't fucking stand injustice. I'm completely on your side, Obedo. And if it seems any of my words are directed against you, please forgive me. I'm against two things: companies who do the shit we're talking about, and people who suffer from it but won't try to fight back.

Trying counts more than winning. This I've seen from many years of experience. It cripples discrimination by eating away at it like erosion, and it gives people experience in fighting against it. That leads to a few wins. A few wins builds a little confidence in the people who fight. And then they fight harder and smarter. And then they win a few more. And this is why it takes years and decades. And it's why we can't give up. Ever.

And when you say "those of us less fortunate", I hope you're not excluding me. I grew up with nothing. My family couldn't afford to pay for an education for me. So I had to work and pay my own way. And although I'm white, I got no special breaks. And I'm even fairly smart. My IQ is 155, and it was STILL tough. I saw many people, black and white and many other races, get ahead of me when I thought I should be advancing. It took many fucking years OF NOT GIVING UP to get where I am.

I have no college degree, I came from no money and no opportunity, and I was given nothing. And now I have an upper management position in the technology industry. I get respect, I make over $100,000 a year, I drive a $55,000 BMW, and I buy pretty much anything I ever want and still have money to save for early retirement. And nobody ever gave me a goddamn thing, not because I'm white, nor for any other reason. I scratched for every frikkin penny, every opportunity, every chance I got to kick the shit out of those who served me injustice, whether it was a single person or a huge corporation. And discrimination has always been my target-of-choice. I've hurt all ranges of opposition.......that idiot small-company boss I had in my first job that told me not to hire a guy I wanted to because he "didn't want any n*gg*rs in his company"........and then there was MCI Corporation.....then Andersen Consulting.....and on and on.

Don't give up. Fight back. If you don't know how, then ask. If nobody has an answer, then make up your own way. That's what I did. Use common sense...don't buy a machine gun and climb up on a rooftop. But be inventive. The possibilities are endless.

So no machine gun damn there goes plan B..just joking. Very inspirational stuff. I guess it so easy to just give up though. I'm a minority, I'm the only one to graduate High School in my family. I've worked hard to accomplish nothing where others have done nothing & have every thing.

Never define your life by what you've done so far. Define it by what you know you're capable of. No matter what you have or lack right now, you're not done yet are you? I know I'm not.

Man.....are you a jedi?

Do, or do not.
There is no try.

Goddamn! I thought that when I typed my last post!

http://www.toonjokes.com/data/media/8/5.jpg

Although his point is the exact opposite of Yoda's point, because according to ScorLibran trying is as important as doing.

:) ... heh ... interesting enough on this topic. :) .. I am unsure how you guys do it in US, but as far as racial discrimination goes, its what we live in here every single day.

Now I can blame that life is not fair, and that others are born great. Its easy because its true. Yet there is another truth that is there as well. Though we might be oppressed in some certain manner, it is what makes my people strong. We can leave our country and go survive practically in any other civilized country, because we are trained to survive in harsh/discriminating environments. We pick our fights carefully and when we do commit, we go the whole way.

Don't see obstacles as hindrance to your life, rather turn it into something that is usefull for you. There are many faces to things, don't go just looking at one side of the coin, look at it all, and then you can use it to your advantage.

Thats how I survive and that is how I live.

You can treat me like dirt, but its dirt that you need to survive, and that makes me powerful.