Illegal Immigrants to be Rewarded for Breaking Law
 

From the BBC:
US parties agree immigration deal
The best part is if you have been breaking the law longer then you get a bigger reward!

I do think it should be easier for immigrants to enter the country legally and become Americans, but I don't think rewarding those who do not respect the current immigration laws is a wise idea at all.

I think you have to go a little beyond the rhetoric in our immigration laws to understand the situation.

Do you really understand why aliens get hired?. It's because their being cheated. Our labor laws dont apply to them. I live in a very mexican town. The graft over this is immense.

A lot of these guys get pay for 40 hours at minimum wage and really work 80. There are two reasons our corporations get away with this. One is that the mexicans are ignorant of our laws, and the other is that they are afraid of deportation.

That fear is used by the people that import them for various purposes, including labor jobs, but also including drug dealing, prostitution etc.

Without all this graft, there is no reason not to hire american workers. It's just american workers would expect not to be cheated.

I think all of this is legislation is way off. The way to reduce the number of illegal aliens is to stop the people that import them to be cheated and worst.

I remember not so long ago that farm work paid well.

I've seen the protests against this, and this will get very ugly before it gets any better.

The first objective would be to lock down the borders FIRST. Then worry about the immigration problem.

Can't multi-task?:p

Along with stopping them from coming in, we need to put some teeth into the law so that it wouldn't be as attractive to come here illegally. Shipping them back without even a hand slap is like saying, "Glad to have 'ya, here's a free ride home. Ya'll come back now, hear?"

Could I just ask how we are supposed to send 20 million illegal aliens home?. Do you have a big bus?. :D

arn't all americans except native americans immigrants?

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0040107-3.html

Read this speech by George Bush. I find this a completely reasoned attitude.

As a Texan, I have known many immigrant families, mainly from Mexico, and I have seen what they add to our country. They bring to America the values of faith in God, love of family, hard work and self reliance -- the values that made us a great nation to begin with.

This is about my experience with aliens here.

Workers who seek only to earn a living end up in the shadows of American life -- fearful, often abused and exploited. When they are victimized by crime, they are afraid to call the police, or seek recourse in the legal system. They are cut off from their families far away, fearing if they leave our country to visit relatives back home, they might never be able to return to their jobs.

The situation I described is wrong. It is not the American way.

I know not course other may take, but as for me, I don't care.

We're talking about people who often risk their lives to come over here. They contribute to the economy, they usually pay taxes, and they are often motivated by crushing poverty, and the need to take care of their families. Many of us with children would do the same. I'm not saying that it's right. I'm saying that it's somewhere around number 56,798 in my list of things to be outraged about.

I saw President Bush on TV explaining that the law requiring him to get a warrant to spy on people is "outdated".

Aren't "Native Americans" originally from Asia? And aren't they from Europe? And even them, they're form Africa?

The point is, we are, and have been, a country now for some 230 years. We are a nation built on laws, and they should be upheld. I think it's hilarious how the illegals bitch and complain and rally on how they "aren't ciminals", yet they snuck into our country, which is illegal (at least, it was the last I read). And if I'm not mistaken, commiting an illegal act makes you a criminal. Sneaking into our country should be a felony (why the FUCK it isn't is absolutly beyond me (well, actually, it isn't. *cough*Social security*cough*)), and, as far as I'm concerned, the illegals are criminals every damn day of the year. Try sneaking into Mexico and see what the fuck happens.

All 20+ million illegals (yes, 20+ million, not 10 or 11 million) should be deported or shot on site.


And just for the hell of it, I propose that 50,000 cops (all armed) be rallied from different cities (a couple from a city here, and a city there) and be sent to the major cities of the US that has illegals. Divide them into pairs, so 25,000 pairs. They take suspected illegals, immediately escort them to their place of residence, where they must then provide proof of citizenship. If they have no proof of citizenship, they are thereby deemed to be in the country illegal. They get read NO Miranda Warning, because they are here illegally, and have no rights as a US Citizen. They are cuffed, and led into a waiting armored and armed vehicle. Once the vehicles are full, they are hauled off to Mexico. Assuming a capture rate of 1 illegal per hour, per pair of cops… 20,000,000 illegals can be deported in, get this….. 33 days. 25k cops times 24 illegals per day/pair = 600,000 illegals per day. 20M/600k = 33.3 days.

And when you load them off of the bus at Mexico, slip this card into their pockets (yes, I photoshopped it):

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/4356/card2ps.jpg
Text by GIR_Prototype.

How generous, SSJ4 Gogitta.

And how stupid. Do you realize what the effect would be of suddenly removing 5,000,000+ workers from the US economy would be?

It's not that I think we should have open immigration, per se, but come on... mass deportation? That would be a Bad Thing.

Initially it would be, yes. It would also, however, open up millions of jobs that would be filled by legal citizens of the US.

I don't buy the whole "the illegals are doing jobs we won't do" BS. Of course we'll do them. Just not for 25 fucking cents per hour like the illegals will. Not to mention the illegals are taking up a bunch of entry-level jobs (read: minimum wage jobs) that is making it harder for highschool kids to get an initial job, and therefore, experience.

If getting rid of the illegals involves me paying a bit more for groceries, then so be it. The prices will fall back down again as the jobs get re-filled by legal citizens. If not, then new technologies will be developed to increase crop yields and better harvesting methods, which would again lead to a decrease in prices.

I don't, however, think it's good to call a plan to get rid of people who are illegally in our country "stupid".

Well, Congress doesn't multitask very good.

Besides, what would you do? Convict them and send them to an already crowded jail system? Chop off a hand or foot? Torture? What kind of "teeth" are we talking about?

Legalizing immigrants will only alienate them from the people who wanted them for cheap labor in the first place. Because they will have more rights and they will have to do paperwork. The two things the slime ball exploiters don't want.

Which also means, they become American citizens and you know the BS behind that, "Americans don't want those jobs". So they will try to bring in more immigrants that they can exploit. Rinse and Repeat.

Lock down the borders first, cut off supply. Then work out legislation with a clear head about how to handle immigrants here and future trespassers.

http://arach.net.au/~sic/pics/orly.JPG


Convict them as felons, distribute their fingerprints and photos to all agencies, and deport them. Make sure they understand that repeat offenders get prison time. Also make sure they understand that because they are convicted felons, they can never become legal immigrants.

A plan isn't made unstupid by its purpose.

Quickly (say, over less than a few years) removing upwards of FIVE MILLION workers from the US labor pool is not a smart thing to do! It would kill thousands and thousands of businesses, legitimately or not (and those businesses dying would kill other businesses...)! Hello?

I'm not saying it shouldn't happen, per se, though I don't really agree that it should. If someone's only crime is crossing the border and working illegally, I find it hard to say "fuck you" to such a productive person.

At the same time, you're right, we have laws, and we can't just say "oh, whatever"...

Could we deport our politicians to mexico and keep the 12 million?.

I suggest some of you folks listen to yesterday's Rusty Humphries show (download link, which won't last too long.) Rusty talks about another method to deal with the illegals, which I could tolerate.

The link will only last for a limited number of downloads, or 7 day, whichever comes first. If someone wants to offer an alternative host, please do. Though, I'm off to work now, and won't be home for another 10 hours or so.

When I was young... and trust me, that was a while ago, I used to smoke a lot of weed. I don't think I have the right to stand in judgement of someone who violates the law to take care of his family, when I used to violate the law for the sake of catching a buzz. And these conservative Republicans aren't in a position to judge until they start to take an active interest in Bush's illegal wiretapping.

What I think doesn't matter, but I would just legalize 'em all. Total fucking amnesty. It's cheap, it would give the workers a reasonable amount of rights, which would give Americans and legal immigrants a more level playing field, and it would make sure that we get the taxes from the workers and the employers.

A lot people are hung up on the princple of the law, and I know that principles are important-- but if there's anything that ought to be more important than principles, it's people. In fact, that's a pretty good principle right there. This country is already broke, and I can't justify spending billions and disrupting the lives of millions of poor people just because we need to hold them to a higher legal and moral standard than the President of the United States... and, I suspect in many cases, ourselves. Is there actually anyone in here who has never broken the law?

I agree with RockOutHippie's earlier post that it'd be wiser to crack down on the companies hiring illegal immigrants and mistreat them. I think that if they eliminate that issue, the more visible problem of illegal immigration would be considerably less problematic. I also think that it's the people hiring them illegally that are knowingly breaking the law, whereas the immigrants themselves are often just trying to survive.
I'm not saying they should be aloud to just stay here, I'm just saying that if companies didn't hire immigrants unless they were legal, legal immigration might have a lot more appeal.

I know I'm guilty. Though my record was expunged, I've committed multiple crimes in the past. Minor, albeit, but a law was broken. Is it right, just?

First, who says it is not right? More importantly, why is it not right? There are always different philosophies about what is right and what is wrong. Some things are always wrong, such as muder. It is wrong to kill another human being. Why? Because it is wrong, it is immoral. I honestly have never sat down and thought about why it is wrong to kill. I've been told that it is so and believe it. I can find no reason to kill, and accept it as an axiom.

If someone can find a legitmate reason that illegal immigration is, well, illegal, then we might be able to find an agreement. Which leads me to xzxzzx.

These people are not "sneaking" into this country to see it's demise. They are hard workers, only trying to improve themselves and their families. There must be a damn good reason that they're immigrating illegally. It's a risk, but not much of a choice over servitude.

There's this gal I work with. She around 65 and lives in a two bedroom apartment. Her son died around four years ago, a few years after his divorce. She has since taken in of all four of his children. She works three different job, two full time and one part time. Annually, she takes in around $30,000.

Another gal I work with just turned 31. She lives in her mother's basement and works around 25 hours a week. She has three kids, the oldest being 15. While she's at work, her mother takes care of her kids. While she's not at work, her mother takes care of her kids. The time away from her job is spent partying. She's on welfare, as puts forth just enough effort not to get fired.

As you might have guessed, I look very highly of the first lady. What she is doing for her family is very commendable. She was not thrown into this situation, she welcomed it. She could have seen that the children were to live with their mother but she's in the same boat as the second gal. She is simply lazy. I have no respect for the second gal, whatsoever.

Again, as xzxzzx put it: "...I find it hard to say "fuck you" to such a productive person." All these people want are a better life, what's so bad about that? It's those who don't care and those who are lazy that we should be saying "fuck you" to. It's those people who would rather party all night and day, waiting for a welfare check, than get out and look for a real job to better yourself and your family that we should be saying "fuck you" to.

If this is your take then how can you be upset with the president? ;)


Anyone born inside the US is automatically a citizen, this includes the children of illegal immigrants born in America.


I agree with OmegaX. Border security needs to be locked down. Tight. Then it needs to be easier to legally immigrate into this country. At borders we should do a background check on those coming in and if they're not criminals let them in and give them a green card. This is a path to citizenship for them.

For current illegals in the country, don't do anything for them. If they want to become legal, then they can leave and come back legally, or they can stay here illegally and be marginalized. This way it turns a blind eye to their past illegal status but it does not reward them for breaking US laws.

Does me being upset with the President make a damn bit of difference? If it did, I might argue that there's a difference in terms of consequences for the constitution and society. America is a nice place, but more than that, it's a great idea, and the great idea that is America also goes by the name of "Constitution". When you erode the system of checks and balances that is built into the constitution, you are directly harming America as an idea. Besides, I can be angry with the President, because-- unlike illegal immigrants-- he's supposed to be working for me.

Obviously, the principle of the law needs to be maintained-- but laws can change, and transgressors can be pardoned. It happens all the time. If just this once it were to happen for people who aren't major campaign contributors, that wouldn't be so bad.

Of course, in a post 9/11 world, the need to monitor our borders is pretty clear. That's a given. I'm not yet convinced that building a huge wall is an effective use of our resources toward that end, and not just political grandstanding.

Oh come on. China's been lording its wall over us for too long!

I would like nothing better than if the illegal immigrant population of my saturated town would go home. That doesn't mean that I want them to come to dire harm to force them to do so.

If you are an illegal and have a job and arent gonna mug me (I have actually been defended by hispanics from their own gangsters), stay and I'll try to tolerate the polka music.

Bad guys go home. Friends stay and we'll work it out.

Thats put almost perfectly!

SSJ4 Gogitta: Dude I randomly click in that file and this is(and I quote) what I hear:
"...When people who dont know what their voting for vote, they vote for Democrats, Why? Because Dummies, and criminals, and Democrats all have something in common. They all want something for nothing."

Are you fucking kidding me? What about the people who voted for Bush cause "they feel like they can have a beer with him"

This guy then attacks someone who says pursuit of happiness, and asks about abortion. Totally going around the subject. Attacking the person.

Listen to his show more. He doesn't like those people, either.

In fact, he thinks that there should be a test of 10 random questions out of a set of 100 easy questions that you must pass in order to vote. If you don't know what you're voting for, you shouldn't be allowed to vote.

Also, the guy who mentions persuite of happines failed to mention the right to life and liberty. All Rusty did was bring that into play, too.

Legal ones, that is.

That is a nice compromise. I agree. BUT I also agree with clamping down on businesses that hire and exploit illegals. The line has to be drawn somewhere. Paying someone less than minimum wage for 40-50hr weeks with no overtime is pretty cruel. Expecially with the cost of living so high in most places.

Gogitta, a fuckhead who understands zero about the real world and economics should never be given air time. Not everything you hear these clowns spew out on the media is the truth.

There are no legal ways for someone who wants to migrate to this land and does not have family already living here, or a PhD in the rarest of the rare subjects, or a million dollar firm willing to sponsor them, or can show physically they will be in mortal peril if sent back home, to do so. As someone currently intimately familiar with the myriad of issues legal aliens face when going through "due process" I can tell you many stories.

All too often we find people, especially the media with a limited understanding of the complexity of the issues opening their mouths. The politicians have always and will always play to the popular crowd at all peroids in time.

While people talk about immigrants taking up federal funding and aid, the numbers show two things:
1. The number of illegal immigrants abusing the system is far less than those "citizens"
2. The majority of undocumenteds ARE trying to legitmately build lives and families.

There is more I can write but I will end with this: In spite of the apparent contradiction of their lives, I really believe in the values set by the founding fathers of ths nation. It is a sad day when we close our eyes to the people who need our help the most (as what happened in Rawanda and other places many years ago.) This nation is one of immigrants. The sons and grandsons of immigrants ushered us into the golden era many years ago and have risen to protect us in our times of greatest need in the past. They will continue to do this many years into the future and we should not turn our backs to them.

People like you, hgnis, make me feel poignant grief that is becoming the future of this country. 200 years ago this country may possibly have been built on migrants, especially so in a time where civil wars were extensive in our new country, and we needed to be able to defend it. But we have LAWS now, and must defend our borders from people coming here illegally. Our country is now built on LEGAL immigration. We, as a sovereign nation of laws, have a RIGHT to make a decision on who can and cannot enter our country, and how many from whichever countries.

And the "fuckhead" who knows nothing about the real world has been to Israel and other Middle East places, and has talked with the terrorist (such as the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades). He knows a whole HELL of a lot more about the "real world" than you think.

Listen to the "fuckhead" for more than one show and you'll come to understand that he knows a hell of a lot more about what's going on than the bullshit deceit you hear from the Liberal and Democratic inclined media.


"There are no legal ways for someone who wants to migrate to this land..."

And amazingly, we have a thing known as "legal immigration." But let me guess; you’re going to complain that it “takes too long,” and is “too strict.” As I said earlier; we have a right to make those decisions. Nevertheless, it's funny you think that they have no way migrating here, when they obviously do; the legal way. If they don’t like the legal way, they sneak in. Doing so makes them a criminal. Why? Because they made the CHOICE to become a criminal by KNOWINLY crossing our borders, which is against United States law to do so. Again, you make me sad.

Open the borders.
Protectionism will just get us to the same place France is.

Neither visiting a few countries nor talking to people from those places makes one qualified to talk about any of them believe me, I know. No one is saying open the borders either. What I said about this country being built on the decendants of immigrants is true even today. Take the Kennedys (grandsons of Irish immigrants), former General Powell (son of Jamacian immigrants), etc....there is a rather long list.

What then do you believe is the legal way for the average degree someone, law abiding, fairly medium sized savings, no family living in the US, and not from a country of blatent persecution, etc - lets say France for arguments sake to immigrate here? Guess what? There is none.
So what then do you do? What then should you do?

Drastic immigration reform is needed in this country. Our CINS is understaffed and overworked. The same goes for the point of entry staff. The system itself offers little leeway for legal immigration outside of those conditions I have outlined in the last post. We spend billions without blinking on wars and yet our own internal issues go unresolved because politicians on both sides are more concerned with popularity than solutions.

In 15 years we will have a crippling Social Security and public pension plan system to deal with when the baby boomers start retiring. Not only that, we have a rapidly diminishing population of scientists, engineers and innovators. The statistics show for some time now, our students have been moving into less technical or innovative fields and there are long term consequences for this. Good old American productivity is fast being replaced by good old Chinese and Indian productivity.

Our national debt, over 20% is held by the Japanese and the same for the Chinese. Those federal bonds that get sold every month or so to fund the deficit and our current levels of consumption will have to get paid when these people call the debt. What will we do then, use the national savings? There is not enough to meet one quarter of the debt. Print more money? This will spark off hyper-inflation and cause us to spiral out of control like Brazil and Japan did not too long ago.

There are several ways to address these. Our so called spin doctors without basic economics training do not seem to know or understand any of these.
(1) Innovation. Issue => refer to my comment on engineers and scientists.
(2) Increasing the retirement age and reducing benefits. Issue => no way the pensioners and aged will allow this, and I say they are right. It is not these people who should be punished for consecutive leadership stupidity.
(3) Immigration - increase the workforce size to compensate for the loss in output and incease in consumption. Issue => well we all know about this now don't we? omg, we are losing benefits, omg look at these people who are not where we are from, omg I just lost my job to someone who will work harder for less (supply and demand like China baby!), omg drugs, omg language, omg culture, omg abusing the system, omg, omg, omg. This is no different from the concerns hundreds of years ago.

China and Japan will want their money and unless serious reform occurs I suspect there will be a red flag flying over this land of ours pretty soon.

We rail against sompanies like Walmart that hire the lowest cost workers and then turn around and buy from these stores. Conflict of interest? We talk about Made in America and then go off to by Playstions and Ipods stamped Made in China and Japan. We wear Nikes stamped Made in Indonesia.
omg omg omg omg.

Media personnel traveling the world you say? Middle east you say? These are the same people wearing the Nikes. I have sat in waiting rooms in this very nation and seen American mothers crying for their babies because the rich turned them away cause they had little insurance. Many years ago I left other parts of the world plagued with the same problems. The rich continue to live in and will continue to live in their glass houses.

What is our nation becoming? Who will save this nation? Franklin, Washington, Kennedy, Lincon, King - all these people are gone and the current crop of leaders leave much to be desired. But what does a dumb fuck of an engineer like me know eh? I should just do like everyone else, close my eyes to that grey eyed little girl they did not want to give the medicine to and go what I can for myself like everyone else right?

If people can SNEAK into our country and get a job, then they can damn well go about it the SAME way people with a degree and family that are already in America; legally.

Seriouslly, listen to the guy's radio show for a week or two. I really DO think you'll learn stuff. And feel free to call him while he's on air. If you can get though, feel free to ask questions (politly), and he'll answer them.

So will we:

1. Open our borders, take any immediate losses and address the problems fundamental to our loss of productivity so that we're better off in the long run, or
2. choose to become into a protectionist, welfare state to guard ourselves against immediate losses and then watch our standard of living and freedoms slowly trickle away.

History says that we'll do the former (because that resilience is what makes us Americans), current political climate says that we'll do the latter.

That is the single most un-American quote I have heard in quite awhile. Nobody gets to say what an American is. Nobody gets to say what flag you fly outside your house. And nobody can say who you are loyal to! Nobody! They can't tell me that, and they certainly aren't going to tell an immigrant (legal or illegal) that.

Some of us came leagally and can find our relatives names in the books from Ellis Island.

Seems to me that being un-American is the new American way.

That Roosevelt quote is the most American quote I've heard in a long time.

I'm proud to be am American. I'm proud to speak English. And I'm proud to know that people want to come here to live the American dream. If only they would respect us, and do it legally.


And personally, I've traced my family back from at least two boats. On my mothers side, a ship called the Abigail in 1622. And on my Dad's side, the Mayflower on Nov. 20th, 1620.

Yes. Being "un-American" IS the new American way. Why? Because nationalism (which appears to be what you are espousing) is just a selfish delusion--believing that your group of people is inherently better than a group of people across some artificial border...that you should sympathize more with the people on your side of that line. That there actually is some kind of real difference between "us" and "them".

That's not American, that's isolationism. Maybe you should explain what being American is to you. A language and a locale? A particular way of life? A lineage? A history? None of these things uniformly apply to America.

/begin sarcasm

Yeah, why don't we get some nationalist nazis, put some jack boots on and put em in a FEMA camp, then off to the ovens like some JEWS!.

Why not drop em in the desert and leave em for dead?. Or just shoot em down in the street?. Like 1940 Poland.

Hell, instruct cops to beat the hell out of anyone lighter than TuPac and darker than Michael Jackson.

/ end sarcasm mode

I am not happy about any of this.

Wow! Suprise of the day!

How am I supposed to feel about a bunch of people that we basically invited into the country to be slave labor?.

Yahoo. Wave the flag!.

Kick some beaner butt... starve some kids... some of you guys give me pause.