Standards II
 

I want to discuss the nature of language in our society. Not just the use of profanity but rather the correct grammatical speech that is somehow deteriorating as time ebbs along. It seems to me that the failure to communicate civily has contributed to the degradation of our society (to an extent we have seen it here in our own little community), but I am getting ahead of myself.

Let me ask- and I know I will get slack for this as I did last time- does the importance of a style of speech to remain involved within a group of people, hinder the ability to communicate with others? The most blatant example is the unwavering use of ebonics (or jive) of and amongst black americans. How does (if at all) their dialogue and race specific slang alter their ability to communicate and gain respect with outside races?

Also, do you think that the use of language has been too often neglected in schooling, so much so that it has become a secondary objective? I am a junior in college, and I witness presentation after presentation- in which groups of my peers use the vocabulary and sentence structure that would characterize the level of middle schoolers. I hear the words "like" and "um" between pauses; I hear poorly structured ideas. Tell me, was it important to you in your learning to write and speak correctly? Do you care at all?

With your presuasive ideas, and thoughts you could actually bring up some good discussions in my gifted great books class. Let me think of your provocative thoughts, and I'll get back to you on my opinions.

.ei shood lern 2 spel
1 dai

graammer neds Wurk 2:D

[edit]A serious post might come later.[/edit]

Post Pumper:D
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Ok, well I think that we are lowering the standards of our intelligence by making ourselves more casual, more cutting on corners, etc. So I believe its rather boring, and annoying when people stutter or always say 'You Know' like every time, or 'like, um, oh', and their faces glow red, their ears turn red. I don't like that at all. I did turn that way about a year ago, when I was messing up my word structure, and I couldn't make sentences flow, and make stuff that I wrote make any sense at all. I still do, but you should have seen me a year ago, I was struggling at that part. These problems can be a pain to deal with, but if you take on reading, or doing hard things that you don't want to do, but have to do it makes it easier for you to try harder things until you are very good at doing so. Hopefully people that I know right now don't turn into people you say right now, it would be a scary place if people are not getting smarter here, they're gonna be running the country in the next 20 years.

Re: Standards II
 

Yeah, try listening to some surfers here in Orange County CA- you will hear more than a healthy share of 'likes' 'ums' 'you knows' and 'dudes' in five minutes of banter. ;)

I share your concern Boplicity, its something that I am somewhat worred about- if this pattern of verbal degeneration continues, how much more worse can it get? :confused:

I'll tell you what immediately turns me off, is people who treat "fuck" (a word I have said in public once in my life during a moment of excruciating pain) as the "omni word". When I am introduced to somebody male or female and I hear it used somehow in every sentece as a noun, pronoun, or adjective... I immediately "tune them out". If that person happened to be intelligent or have something meaningful to say, its quite unfortunate. As I really do not even give the person the light of day anymore. To me, the type of person he or she is and their maturity level has already been revealed by their level of speech.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Re: Standards II
 

Not really. This kind of stuff had been happening for years and years. In victorian london you'd stuggle to find a normal person on the street that spoke the queens english. In fact, nothing like this ever changes.

I don't mind too much but some people really annoy we with it. I'm no good at writting good grammar at all, I've never got it really. I don't like reading bad grammar, I can pick that up, which is quite odd :igor:. If a person manages to get their message accross then that's ok.

You should make your pr0n link to goatse.... well maybe. hehe :);)

In these "degeneration of society" discussions, I tend to take the opposite view, but language I feel is something that is really degrading quickly. I've personally made an effort to clean up my own spelch. Most philosophy courses, at the secondary and post-secondary level, teach that one of the greatest problems in philosophy is being limited by the nature of the language you are discussing in. That's why Noam Chomsky figures so largely in philosophy even though he isn't a philosopher. We are limited by the words we use... if we don't have a word for a certain concept, we aren't able to express that concept. That idea was demonstrated supoibly in 1984... the government effectively controlled though by creating a language in which certain undesirable ideas did not exist. Now, by degrading our own speech, we are losing our cultural heritage and some of the most beautiful ideas ever imagined. Imagination depends on our ability to describe it, and once you can no longer describe it, you can no longer imagine it.

You can still imagine it but you may not be able to transfer this image to another peson. It is still possible for you though. Before the word for surprise was invented people could still be surprised and have a collective knowledge of what being surprised was.

Re: Re: Standards II
 

Absolutely true. Language constantly evolves. It will always evolve. Separate dialects will always exist. You can call one dialect "proper English" if you want, but in truth, why is it more proper?

I will say though, that those who fail to speak "proper", accepted English are looked down upon. It does look less educated, because, well . . . it is. I don't think this is going to ever change, either.

Also note, the failure to articulate ideas properly is not the same as failure to use accepted English.

Yes, the emotion "surprise" existed long before we had a word for it, and people could be surprised, but they were not able to create a mental image (i.e. imagine) of someone being surprised. They wouldn't have been able to describe to someone else what "surprise" meant, or define it for themselves either.

In other words, if there were no words to describe "surprise", my only knowledge of "surprise" would exist when I saw someone surprised. Previous to, and after that event, I would not know what "surprise" was.

Re: Re: Re: Standards II
 

Yes, that is true. Languages constantly evolve, and I couldn't care less what form English is in. Unless, as is happening today, that form inherently restricts thought. It doesn't really matter what is "proper" English. As long as English allows us to convey ideas eloquently, clearly and efficiently, I am happy. Unfortunately, the direction English is taking is doing the opposite.

Yes you would, you'd remember what it was like and could describe it to someone else. In the same way that I could describe a headache, you'd not know at all what it felt like but I could describe it to you and you would know what I meant without truely knowing what it is like. This is just our ability to describe ideas, thoughts, experiances to others and has proved very useful, you don't just forget an experiance if there is no word for it.

My point is that if you didn't have the words necessary to describe something, you can't describe it. How would you be able to describe a memory if you are speechless?

I don't believe we will get to a point where knowlege and use of language will fall to a point where we can class it as almost being speachless. We can describe new ideas by using words such as 'like' and 'you know' so people can create the new idea from past experiances :weird:. We've come full circle :)

I don't know about England, but where I live, people's mouths are moving but they aren't saying anything :)

You have to look a bit lower and view their arse :eek:

:)

*bump-o-rama*

I too notice the same thing bop. I try to write, even in IM communication (but to a lesser extent), with good sentence and paragraph structure, I try to use the extent of my vcabulary (not using big words for the sake of using them, but using them when and where appropriate), as well as trying to write in somewhat of a loose style that is comfortable to me (which parts come from other authors whose books I've read) and yet not make it sound childish.

Now as for it's importance in my education, I'd say I put more emphasis on writing well, than presenting well, unless it is something I'm passionate or confident about. Needless to say, I'm a poor public speaker, and it scares the crap out of me.

i think its terrible. one of the worst things that you always hear is the misuse of the words good and well. It's not that hard to speak correctly. It's simply common sense.

its a point of being lazy.....
down here (in the heart of slang world), people are just to lazy for example, to say "what do you want?". instead you often hear phrases like "whatchu wan" or whujoo wa"

its sad really.

When English is not your native language, you have to learn it at school. Plain UK/US/Australian English is easy to understand, but i.e. Scottish or Irish sounds as a new language to me... :( Same for slang.

UK

I remember how Mel Gibson’s voice had to be dubbed in the first Mad Max Movie because his Australian accent was so strong Americans couldn’t understand him.

I am constantly telling the kids how important it is to annunciate correctly and to try and articulate their thoughts properly. I feel it is very important to sound educated in business environments, no matter what the job you are in. I get very frustrated by people telling me what “it’s like” or about “that thing”. I can also see a reason to know and understand slang in certain social situations. Mainly it’s about education. Knowing what to say at the proper time in the proper place. But when teachers have the kids watching “Spongebob Squarepants” to learn how to interact with each other, instead of having the kids, well, interact with each other, what can you expect. I can teach them how to act at home but I have to fight the ignorance taught to them by the school in a way so they can still pass their classes.

I think that has more to do with the person being nervous and losing their train of thought than anything else.

ANd i suppose it hinders people from integrating into anothers society when they cannot speak in a similar manner, simply becasue it marks them as different...and we dont like whats different do we? :P

World = Carcass :)