Abortion - Dos and Don'ts

[liquidmotion]

DO: Let the woman choose
DON'T: Stop the woman from choosing.

thoughts?

[Nat_roy]

Agreed, too a certain limit. If the woman is aborting the child simply because they do not want to have it, then it should not be allowed. You should still have to live with the consequences of your actions. If, however, the woman is in risk of death or some sort of other horrible thing, then I certaintly dont see why not.

[liquidmotion]

why should you be forced to have a child you don't want? seems like that would put some bitter resentment on the child.

[dlinkwit27]

Originally posted by liquidmotion
why should you be forced to have a child you don't want? seems like that would put some bitter resentment on the child.

Because there is no undo button in life, or at least there shoudln't be. You fucked up, deal with it. If nothign else place the kid in foster homes, you can do that.

And for those of you wondering, I am seriosuly considering adoption when I am old enough (secure job, happily married, all-that-shit old-enough) to have kids.

[Namelessv1]

Originally posted by dlinkwit27
Because there is no undo button in life, or at least there shoudln't be. You fucked up, deal with it. If nothign else place the kid in foster homes, you can do that.

Yeah, putting up a child for adoption has to be a better alternative than killing the fetus. If the unwanted pregnancy was a result of their own actions, then people need to be more responsible sexually, not just erasing their mistakes afterwards.

[GarbagePoe]

I think hat abortion should only be used if the female was, let's say, raped. Especially if she's like 16 or something.

[dlinkwit27]

Originally posted by GarbagePoe
I think hat abortion should only be used if the female was, let's say, raped. Especially if she's like 16 or something.

Or if the birth could be life threatning to the mother.

[GarbagePoe]

Originally posted by dlinkwit27
Or if the birth could be life threatning to the mother.

Yes, that too.

[laz]

Well, I have no problem with abortion. Kill all the fetus's you want, dosent bother me. They are not alaive yet, they do not know their own existance, they can not think yet.
I have no problem with it mainly b/ the world is already over crowded, go to china if you want to know.
And the less humans on the earth, the better.
Yes I may seem cold, but it is simple logic.

[DJHotIce]

prob I see with it is... Its a human being! You could have killed the next president or govenor of California when you think about it!

[webthing]

Abortion is murder. No ifs ands or buts.

Yeah, putting up a child for adoption has to be a better alternative than killing the fetus. If the unwanted pregnancy was a result of their own actions, then people need to be more responsible sexually, not just erasing their mistakes afterwards.- Dawg4Life2K1

But, I'm not saying it shouldn't be used though. I say make it a personal choice.


6- Abortion bad

2- Abortion o.k.

[laz]

So, are you saying, you want the brutaly disformed and mentaly retarted child to be born from an alcohol induced rape? I would rather not have that child live with such disformaties and the lovelessness from being the product of a rape, it is just not fair for the child.

[DragonSon]

Having read only a few posts in here, and seeing as I just got home from work and REALLY need a shower, I'm going to put my two cents in this discussion. First and foremost, there should be SEVERE limitations on the right to an abortion. One, the ONLY way you can have an abortion is either if the mother or child would die during birth, the baby would have such a terrible defect as to bring the parents into poverty just so it can survive, or the mother would die during birth. Second, I believe you shouldn't just have an abortion just because you don't want the kid. (On the subject of rape, they should just send it up for adoption) That's why we have adoption services. They are free, and all you have to do is take them there and they would take the baby off your hands, so to speak. If the government completely legalized abortion, it would also increase the spread of STDs such as AIDS because then all of the "loose" women (Hey, I'm trying to put that as nicely as possible, given the situation) would have all the unprotected sex they want because Hey, I can just have an abortion, why should I use a condom? Frankly, if you play with fire, your going to get burned. Like dlinkwit said, there shouldn't be an undo button on life. If you have unprotected sex, it's your own fault and you need to deal with the consequences.

[dlinkwit27]

Originally posted by laz9999
So, are you saying, you want the brutaly disformed and mentaly retarted child to be born from an alcohol induced rape? I would rather not have that child live with such disformaties and the lovelessness from being the product of a rape, it is just not fair for the child.

exactly! and all people who are deformed and retarded who have been born need to be experminated! Hitler was right after all!

[Namelessv1]

Originally posted by DJHotIce
prob I see with it is... Its a human being! You could have killed the next president or govenor of California when you think about it!

A few thousand dollars, some signatures, and a gimmick. All it takes to be the next governor of California.

[d0rk]

A women has tuberculosis, and the father has syphilis.
Together they had four children.

Their first child was born blind...
The second child was stillborn...
The third child was deaf & dumb...
and their fourth was born with tuberculosis.

They're now pregnant with their fifth child.
Would you recommend that they abort this child?

Yes or No?






If Yes: Than you just killed Beethoven. Congratulations.



That should explain my opinion on the matter.

[deathazre]

no, I would recommend they stop being idiots

[ShyShy]

Originally posted by DragonSon
(On the subject of rape, they should just send it up for adoption) That's why we have adoption services. They are free, and all you have to do is take them there and they would take the baby off your hands, so to speak.

I don't know about that one. To me, that's a whole Pandora's box just waiting to explode. With stories that you hear about those who were adopted searching and hoping to reunite with their birth families, it's just got to be hard for both sides if mother and child do meet. I mean, how do you explain that the only reason that the child is in existance is that the mother was raped, and she didn't want to be faced with the after results of that situation, so she put the child up for adoption because she didn't want to be faced with a reminder everyday. That's some major mental issues there. And how would "you" feel, if you were said child?

Abortion is not a black and white subject. It is largely shaded with gray areas. For myself, I believe in keeping all choices available. This is going to sound really harsh, but I do have an aquiantance that sometimes I think should have had an abortion. Why??? She was 14 at the time, the father a one night stand that she couldn't even remember his name. AND, she was pressured by her family to keep the baby, not to put him up for adoption or have an abortion, because they would help her out. No, they haven't helped out, she's miserable, depressive, and has no real connection to her son. Did she ever have the chance to make a informed decision at all? And before you start in on about her having sex in the first place, I'm not a 100% certain on the circumstances of that evening, but I do know that she had gone to a high school party where there was booze everywhere. So, anything could've happened that nite.

Well, I tried to keep it down to 2 cents, but I guess I had to put in a whole dollar on my opinion on this subject.

[webthing]

When I said "make it a personal choice". I mean abortion should only be used in extreme cases. And even then your playing God.

Loving parents of a servery deformed and mentally retarded child are some of the most loving people in the world.

Do you know why God allows these children to be born to these parents?

It's so the rest of the world can look at them and say "so thats what love is"

[will]

Womens bodies are they're concern, they ought to do as they think best.
To quote the prophet Kelly:
"My vagina, my business"
The Osbournes 14:23

That makes me strongly pro-choice. You shouldn't tell women what they can and can't do, it has to be up to them to decide.

And no, abortion isn't murder, a feotus is so undevelopedthat its like saying that by eating a fried egg is murdering a chicken. Which is stupid.

[edit webthing: as Francis Crick, who co-discovered DNA said "If we don't play god, who will?"]

[missyob]

This is a tough subject for me. Most of you know that I have 3 boys. They mean the world to me. I love them with all my heart and most of what I do in life is for them. 2 of them have adhd which makes it harder on me at times, but If given the choice I would not change anything about them.

When I was 17 I got pregant by a guy I was dating. We were both about to enter college and could not see any other alternative but to abort the baby. Looking back it was selfishness on both of our parts. We could not see anything but this baby being a hinderance in our lives. The counceling they give you before an abortion is a joke. It is something that scars you emotionally for life. I know that god has forgiven me for what I have done but even now - 17 years later I have still never totally forgiven myself.

After Corey was born ( I was married ect....) I was pregant with a baby girl. My husband and I found out that her brain was not developing and would be born a "vegetable". She would never be able to talk or feed herself or do anything. We were pretty poor then and would never have been able to afford the medical care that this baby would have needed so we both decided to abort the baby. I think about her from time to time, but have no regrets on this one. Without a brain she would never have been a real person. She would have still been in an institution requiring 24 hour care and fed through tubes.

Abortion is such a personal issue. It is something that lives with people for the rest of their lives. I am pro-choice but strongly believe that their should be more counceling and a waiting period before people make that decision. Having an abortion can be a quick fix to a problem, but can lead to emotional instability later in life.

Please do not judge others decisions that they make in life. No one is perfect and we all make mistakes. The important thing is to learn and grow from them.

Big Hugs,

Missy

[liquidmotion]

been a while, missy, glad to see you're still around

[ShyShy]

Originally posted by missyob

Please do not judge others decisions that they make in life. No one is perfect and we all make mistakes. The important thing is to learn and grow from them.

And that, boys & girls, says it all. You never know what you'll do, unless you yourself have walked that treacherous mile in those wornout shoes.

[Raz]

Going by the logic that the foetus (am i the only one who spells it foetus? (both are acceptable by the way)) could be the next governer and whatnot is bullshit, that's like saying you musn't masturbate because those sperms could ammount to things, if you live your life like that you are just tormenting yourself. Kill someone with the developed intelligence to be governer (a good governer mind) and then i will be bothered. Otherwise, no. I don't care how good the child may turn out there's always the other side of things, the child could turn out awful murderer rapist paedophile. There is no way of knowing but having a half decent upbringing where you can care for the child sure as hell helps a lot.

[Avion]

Now I'm with Will, missyob, ShyShy, and Raz on this one.

Agree with them on the emotional and ethical side to abortion.

But I'm going to talk about the science of the fetus(foetus).
I found a wonderful on-line piece of work by Carl Sagan and Ann Druyan.

Women and mothers will have no problem reading this long piece of work.
as it's very ineresting and informational.
Though men, men who tend to not really understand what it is to have a child, or what a child really is until they have one themselves, will find this reply boring and not bother to read it.


So I hope you enjoy

“The Question of Abortion: A Search for Answers”

by Carl Sagan and Ann Druyan


If you deliberately kill a human being, it's called murder. If you deliberately kill a chimpanzee--biologically, our closest relative, sharing 99.6 percent of our active genes--whatever else it is, it's not murder. To date, murder uniquely applies to killing human beings. Therefore, the question of when personhood (or, if we like, ensoulment) arises is key to the abortion debate. When does the fetus become human? When do distinct and characteristic human qualities emerge?

We recognize that specifying a precise moment will overlook individual differences. Therefore, if we must draw a line, it ought to be drawn conservatively--that is, on the early side. There are people who object to having to set some numerical limit, and we share their disquiet; but if there is to be a law on this matter, and it is to effect some useful compromise between the two absolutist positions, it must specify, at least roughly, a time of transition to personhood.

Every one of us began from a dot. A fertilized egg is roughly the size of the period at the end of this sentence. The momentous meeting of sperm and egg generally occurs in one of the two fallopian tubes. One cell becomes two, two become four, and so on—an exponentiation of base-2 arithmetic. By the tenth day the fertilized egg has become a kind of hollow sphere wandering off to another realm: the womb. It destroys tissue in its path. It sucks blood from capillaries. It bathes itself in maternal blood, from which it extracts oxygen and nutrients. It establishes itself as a kind of parasite on the walls of the uterus.

* By the third week, around the time of the first missed menstrual period, the forming embryo is about 2 millimeters long and is developing various body parts. Only at this stage does it begin to be dependent on a rudimentary placenta. It looks a little like a segmented worm.

* By the end of the fourth week, it's about 5 millimeters (about 1/5 inch) long. It's recognizable now as a vertebrate, its tube-shaped heart is beginning to beat, something like the gill arches of a fish or an amphibian become conspicuous, and there is a pronounced tail. It looks rather like a newt or a tadpole. This is the end of the first month after conception.

* By the fifth week, the gross divisions of the brain can be distinguished. What will later develop into eyes are apparent, and little buds appear—on their way to becoming arms and legs.

* By the sixth week, the embryo is 13 millimeteres (about ½ inch) long. The eyes are still on the side of the head, as in most animals, and the reptilian face has connected slits where the mouth and nose eventually will be.

* By the end of the seventh week, the tail is almost gone, and sexual characteristics can be discerned (although both sexes look female). The face is mammalian but somewhat piglike.

* By the end of the eighth week, the face resembles that of a primate but is still not quite human. Most of the human body parts are present in their essentials. Some lower brain anatomy is well-developed. The fetus shows some reflex response to delicate stimulation.

* By the tenth week, the face has an unmistakably human cast. It is beginning to be possible to distinguish males from females. Nails and major bone structures are not apparent until the third month.

* By the fourth month, you can tell the face of one fetus from that of another. Quickening is most commonly felt in the fifth month. The bronchioles of the lungs do not begin developing until approximately the sixth month, the alveoli still later.

So, if only a person can be murdered, when does the fetus attain personhood? When its face becomes distinctly human, near the end of the first trimester? When the fetus becomes responsive to stimuli--again, at the end of the first trimester? When it becomes active enough to be felt as quickening, typically in the middle of the second trimester? When the lungs have reached a stage of development sufficient that the fetus might, just conceivably, be able to breathe on its own in the outside air?

The trouble with these particular developmental milestones is not just that they're arbitrary. More troubling is the fact that none of them involves uniquely human characteristics--apart from the superficial matter of facial appearance. All animals respond to stimuli and move of their own volition. Large numbers are able to breathe. But that doesn't stop us from slaughtering them by the billions. Reflexes and motion are not what make us human.

Other animals have advantages over us--in speed, strength, endurance, climbing or burrowing skills, camouflage, sight or smell or hearing, mastery of the air or water. Our one great advantage, the secret of our success, is thought--characteristically human thought. We are able to think things through, imagine events yet to occur, figure things out. That's how we invented agriculture and civilization. Thought is our blessing and our curse, and it makes us who we are.

Thinking occurs, of course, in the brain--principally in the top layers of the convoluted "gray matter" called the cerebral cortex. The roughly 100 billion neurons in the brain constitute the material basis of thought. The neurons are connected to each other, and their linkups play a major role in what we experience as thinking. But large-scale linking up of neurons doesn't begin until the 24th to 27th week of pregnancy--the sixth month.

By placing harmless electrodes on a subject's head, scientists can measure the electrical activity produced by the network of neurons inside the skull. Different kinds of mental activity show different kinds of brain waves. But brain waves with regular patterns typical of adult human brains do not appear in the fetus until about the 30th week of pregnancy--near the beginning of the third trimester. Fetuses younger than this--however alive and active they may be--lack the necessary brain architecture. They cannot yet think.

Acquiescing in the killing of any living creature, especially one that might later become a baby, is troublesome and painful. But we've rejected the extremes of "always" and "never," and this puts us--like it or not--on the slippery slope. If we are forced to choose a developmental criterion, then this is where we draw the line: when the beginning of characteristically human thinking becomes barely possible.

It is, in fact, a very conservative definition: Regular brain waves are rarely found in fetuses. More research would help… If we wanted to make the criterion still more stringent, to allow for occasional precocious fetal brain development, we might draw the line at six months. This, it so happens, is where the Supreme Court drew it in 1973--although for completely different reasons.

Its decision in the case of Roe v. Wade changed American law on abortion. It permits abortion at the request of the woman without restriction in the first trimester and, with some restrictions intended to protect her health, in the second trimester. It allows states to forbid abortion in the third trimester, except when there's a serious threat to the life or health of the woman. In the 1989 Webster decision, the Supreme Court declined explicitly to overturn Roe v. Wade but in effect invited the 50 state legislatures to decide for themselves.

What was the reasoning in Roe v. Wade? There was no legal weight given to what happens to the children once they are born, or to the family. Instead, a woman's right to reproductive freedom is protected, the court ruled, by constitutional guarantees of privacy. But that right is not unqualified. The woman's guarantee of privacy and the fetus's right to life must be weighed--and when the court did the weighing' priority was given to privacy in the first trimester and to life in the third. The transition was decided not from any of the considerations we have been dealing with so far…--not when "ensoulment" occurs, not when the fetus takes on sufficient human characteristics to be protected by laws against murder. Instead, the criterion adopted was whether the fetus could live outside the mother. This is called "viability" and depends in part on the ability to breathe. The lungs are simply not developed, and the fetus cannot breathe--no matter how advanced an artificial lung it might be placed in—until about the 24th week, near the start of the sixth month. This is why Roe v. Wade permits the states to prohibit abortions in the last trimester. It's a very pragmatic criterion.

you can read the full 4page piece of work here
science_abortion

Other pieces of work similar to the one above, can be found at
www.2think.org

[hgnis]

I can never understand why anyone would want to kill their child under any circumstances, these people sadden me. Then again, not everyone thinks the same way.

[liquidmotion]

remember: being pro choice is not the same as being pro abortion.

i'm just saying a woman has the right to choose.

[Kinetik*]

Abortion is the classic battle between "Good and Evil", "God and the Devil", "Science and the Bible" etc etc etc.

I have a couple of opinions on this issue. Though both are pro-abortion. However I do feel that anyone who registers or puts in for the "Partial Birth" abortion should be murdered. Unless it risks the lives of both the child and the mother. But see, that brings up my first point.

I feel that you shouldn't be able to say, "Oh well, you can't do that. Oh, but you have a special situation? Come on in!" I feel that that's b/s. If it's not legal or approved of in one situation, it shouldn't be in any.

Also, the second point. What about poverty? What if some poor girl, who couldn't raise a child in any lifetime becomes pregnant? She should have the child? It's worse than murder to not give a child a childhood, or a future. Would I rather not have a child, or have it grow up being poor and deprived? I'd rather not have one.

Also, about the homes for children in these cases. Come on now, it's almost as bad. I have a friend who was raised in one of those homes, and he said that it was horrible. He wonders every day about his real parents, and doesn't love his current parents like he says he would his birth ones. - Though not in this case, I'm sure many cases of this have driven the child to a point of hatred for their biological parents, and if they ever met, he (the adopted child) would probably murder both real parents. And that's worse than abortion.

Extreme Situation? Sure.
Has it probably happened? Sure.

I understand both parts of the argument, but I stand firmly on my "Pro-Choice" front.

[godoncrack]

I am all about some pro-choice over here
YOU choose to have sex, YOU choose to have a baby.
What? You think screwin is only good for havin fun?
That's how babies get made. (derrr!!!)
YOU chose to have that baby, you should be made to carry that baby full term.
And lets not forget about daddy
Track the son of a bitch down and make him
a)take care of the bastard
b)pay heavily to have her take care of the bastard
If you are not responsible enough to accept the consequences of your actions, then you should not be having sex.
If you(chics) are raped, i'm all about some abortion and hangin a dick ass bastard.
Educate youngins bout what to do when shit happens.
How many young girls know what to do after being raped?
taking a shower, burning the clothes, and waiting a month to call the cops, won't do you a damn bit of good(cold case files,TLC)
If the kid will turn out in such away as to have a severe lack of quality or quantity of life if born, get two doc's to sign off on that and yank it out.
Choice does NOT mean walkin out on life.

[liquidmotion]

i didn't think there was a battle between science and the bible; there is NO competition, anyway.

those scientists and their "facts", pffbt.

[Kinetik*]

The scientists don't really challenge the bible. Like the pro-choice people don't fight the anti-abortionists.

Ever notice how it's always the extremists doing all the fighting and arguing?

All the christians can really do is threaten us with broken concepts of hell.

All scientists do is post theories.

[mikm]

Wierd---I just realzed that FAzer's avatar is a kid. I agree with RAz and missy. In Michael Moore's Downsize This he has a whole jokey thing about being pro-life. He argues that because fetuses are alive, they should be given social security numbers and give the mother tax benefits. it was very funny. Later, he has a small chapter about "A Sperm's Right to Life, where he argues that sperm should be treated as living organisms (like Raz was talking about).

[liquidmotion]

do not even get me started on michael moore.

fucking fascist.

[c2R]

Originally posted by Dawg4Life2K1
Yeah, putting up a child for adoption has to be a better alternative than killing the fetus.

Have you ever been to a foster home?

[Namelessv1]

Originally posted by c2R
Have you ever been to a foster home?

Of course there's some absolutely horrid foster homes out there, but by killing a fetus, you're not even giving it a chance at life.

[WomanOfHeart]

I'm pro-choice, for reasons that have all ready been stated (ShyShy, Missy, Will, Raz.) I stand by the right for women to decide what they should and should not do with their own bodies.

[godoncrack]

And i stand by making a person be responsible for their actions

[ShyShy]

This will hopefully be my last post in this subject. I just want to remind folks that the abortion issue is a very touchy subject for a lot of people, on either side of the debate. So, with that in mind, please take a moment before you reply to anyone's post here. I hate to see this thread go down in flames. It's been interesting to see other's thoughts and feelings on this emotional subject.

[godoncrack]

that is the point of this forum, is it not?

[eleet-2k2]

I dont agree with the whole concept of abortion because I believe a life from conception (being Catholic) is worth protection and worth a life. I dont agree with Canada's policy of having abortion legal until the very second the child is completely removed from the womb, especially when the child is close to it's birth date. If you do get pregnant, I believe the mother should bear the child and then give them up for adoption if they dont want it, but dont kill it (unless the mother is deathly in jeopardly od dying herself).