Evolution or Creationism?

[Viper007Bond]

This thread made me wonder what people think about how the how we came about.

Here's the rules:[list=1][*]NO idea bashing - everyone has a right to their opinion[*]NO big fights[*]And I would prefer if you just said what you voted for and why you believe your opinion is correct, NOT why someone else's is wrong.[/list=1]Sorry if this has been done before.

I'll start. I believe in evolution because of the similarities in DNA that we have with monkeys, that we've found 1/2 money, 1/2 human ancestors and those Darwin birds among other reasons.

Remember: Please don't bash other people's ideas.

[anubis2003]

evolution - god wouldn't have put all those dinosaur skeletons there if humans were the first to exist. MWA HA HA.

[tiger84]

I'm a Creationist. I mean look at how organized science is, that could only have been created by some for of intelligence. For instance, atomic structure. The element is decided by the number of protons...add one or take one away and you have a different element. DNA, laws of physics, etc...it's too damn organized to have just sort of...come into being. And the big bang theory is all well and good, but it still doesn't explain where the originating matter came from...how did it get there?

[ShyShy]

I voted for "Other" I think that life is a mixture of both. It's pretty far-fetched for me to totally believe that we came about from the Big Bang. And at the same time, I don't firmly believe in creationism.

This is what I told an aquaintance of mine that told me once that Dinosaur remains were a hoax. If God is indeed real and He is infinite, wouldn't time be infinite to him? Although the Bible says that the world and all of it's creations were created in 7 days (and we were created on the 7th day), what is time to a being that knows no end? And in the scientific timeline, I believe (please correct me if I'm wrong) that our era as human beings measure a mere blip on the grand scale of things. So, what may have been "7 Days" to God, was indeed the same amount of time that scientists have measured.

Jeez, I hope that made some sense. I need more coffee now.

[Viper007Bond]

Originally posted by tiger84
And the big bang theory is all well and good, but it still doesn't explain where the originating matter came from...how did it get there?

They believe the universe expands and then contracts, etc. (Like a sine wave). They don't know how the universe started. I could see God, if there is one, creating the first Big Bang or whatever, but besides that, I don't think He has anything to do with it.

The universe is currently expanding BTW...

[anubis2003]

I agree to viper - something had to originally create the original mass at the center - I think that is the only supernatural part of the history of the universe. Who knows, maybe we'll fiugre out a different way it started or something.

[BullGawD]

Who cares? We occupy an infinitesimal subdivision of time. We can barely get people to concern themselves with preparations for the week ahead or to learn a lesson from the week behind. We are a people inextricably involved with the present. Even this thread implies that our individual opinions have some meaning, and will doubtless, despite your best intentions, devolve into "belief v. belief" rather than discussion, debate, consensus and an advancement in thought.

As long as we're concerned with the self-indulgence of the individual, self gratification in the now, it does us absolutely no good to ponder the origins of the universe - it would do us no good even if we knew. We are not mature enough to put that knowledge to a use that could even begin to equal its magnitude.

[will]

Originally posted by tiger84
I'm a Creationist. I mean look at how organized science is, that could only have been created by some for of intelligence. For instance, atomic structure. The element is decided by the number of protons...add one or take one away and you have a different element. DNA, laws of physics, etc...it's too damn organized to have just sort of...come into being. And the big bang theory is all well and good, but it still doesn't explain where the originating matter came from...how did it get there?

I'm not bashing your ideas, but I would like to point out that science is just a group of models (like the subatomic model) which are designed to make everything look organised, your right that doesn't look like this by accident, its just many lifes work of many great men (who didn't look for the easy answer) in catagorising, and forming mathmatical ideas to describe the world in the most understandable way possible.

[whiteflip]

Science is very organized cuz natures inate inateness is to be balanced. While science is organized yes nature is in a state of entropy. What once was a perfect point of super enenergy is now an ever expanding space, emptyness, and strange forms of matter floating about.

[zootm]

evolution. but i'm not sure about natural selection of random mutations, it's got some HUGE holes in it.

[tiger84]

Originally posted by will
I'm not bashing your ideas, but I would like to point out that science is just a group of models (like the subatomic model) which are designed to make everything look organised, your right that doesn't look like this by accident, its just many lifes work of many great men (who didn't look for the easy answer) in catagorising, and forming mathmatical ideas to describe the world in the most understandable way possible.

Yes, science is just what we use to define our world. But how the universe works is still to organized to just have happened by pure mathematical chance.

Originally posted by ShyShy
This is what I told an aquaintance of mine that told me once that Dinosaur remains were a hoax. If God is indeed real and He is infinite, wouldn't time be infinite to him? Although the Bible says that the world and all of it's creations were created in 7 days (and we were created on the 7th day), what is time to a being that knows no end? And in the scientific timeline, I believe (please correct me if I'm wrong) that our era as human beings measure a mere blip on the grand scale of things. So, what may have been "7 Days" to God, was indeed the same amount of time that scientists have measured.

Good point. How do you define a day if there is no sun, becuase in the Christian story of creation the Earth was created first.

[UpperKEES]

Evolution. The fact that we don't know everything (and probably will never know), doesn't mean we should accept the idea of a God to explain the things we don't understand. That would be the easy way. Do I care (BullGawD)? Yes, I really do. I would certainly give 10 years of my life to be able to understand it all. Just for my own satisfaction. For me a reason to stay open minded and not seek for answers that can not be verified.

UK

[edit]
For more forum opinions on this subject, see Who made who?
[/edit]

[tiger84]

Why should we default to evolution just because we don't know? Thats also lazy. Evolution is not scientific fact. There is still plenty of work to be done in Creationism.

[psyfive]

I chose the I dont know option. honestly it doesn't matter to me if I was evolved or created. If there is a higher power who has some kind of cheat code to spawn whatever creature/item he wants, why doesn't she/he keep creating? why did she/he stop?

[BullGawD]

Originally posted by UpperKEES
Do I care (BullGawD)? Yes, I really do. I would certainly give 10 years of my life to be able to understand it all. Just for my own satisfaction.

Hooray for you. That's my point. Why not really give ten years to making the world a better place in some way? Why not take 30 minutes today to give blood or run over a stupid person, depending on your individual social outlook?

We are all compelled by our individual curiosity - the need to have our individual existence validated in some way. My question to you is this: having given that ten years of your life, how would you utilize the knowledge you'd so dearly bought?

[will]

Originally posted by tiger84
Why should we default to evolution just because we don't know? Thats also lazy. Evolution is not scientific fact. There is still plenty of work to be done in Creationism.

Charles Darwin, in his work on evolution:
1) produced hypothesys (an idea)
2) gathered evidence
3) made conclusions
4) gave predictions, which were later found to be true, including further works by other people which supported his findings (like DNA, its funny how gene theory and evolution support each other so well dispite being by different people at vastly different times)

And thats about as far towards fact as science can get.

What have you for creationism to rival that? Honestly, I'd be interested to know.

[zootm]

Originally posted by will
4) gave predictions, which were later found to be true, including further works by other people which supported his findings (like DNA, its funny how gene theory and evolution support each other so well dispite being by different people at vastly different times)

a lot of them have been found to be false (mathematically, for example, evolutionism by random mutation just doesn't work). i'm yet to find a proper explanation - i'm assured they're still "working on it". the bottom line is that natural selection doesn't really work as there would never be enough random mutations of beneficial things - evolution is all well and good, but there appears to be something in animals that knows how to evolve. remember that natural selection relies on these mutations occuring naturally.

my friend says he's going to lend me a book about it. he is a bilogy student though, so i dunno what chance i have of being able to read it...

[will]

zoot: i've been reading "The Pleasures of Counting" by Korner, which gives a good mathematical explanation of genetic mutation.

He didn't point out any flaws but such is the style of the book, if there were he would have done.

[tiger84]

Originally posted by will
Charles Darwin, in his work on evolution:
1) produced hypothesys (an idea)
2) gathered evidence
3) made conclusions
4) gave predictions, which were later found to be true, including further works by other people which supported his findings (like DNA, its funny how gene theory and evolution support each other so well dispite being by different people at vastly different times)

And thats about as far towards fact as science can get.

What have you for creationism to rival that? Honestly, I'd be interested to know.

Just a quick bit of trivia. Charles Darwin rejected his own theory! And creationism also has
1. produced a hypothesys
2. gathered evidence
3. made conclusions
4. gave predictions which were also found later to be true. It's funny how DNA and gene theory supporting evolution is also an opinion.

[will]

where?

[Mike H.]

It's a little bit of both. God did create the world, but I don't believe he created every species that exists today. Many species have branched off into sub-species, some have become extinct, some have adapted, and a few have been created through hybridization.

[UpperKEES]

Originally posted by tiger84
Why should we default to evolution just because we don't know?

Evolution scientists accept the fact that a lot is still unknown. They find no need is making assumptions without proof. How will you be able to find the real answers when you are already biased about gaps in our knowledge?

Originally posted by BullGawD
My question to you is this: having given that ten years of your life, how would you utilize the knowledge you'd so dearly bought?

If possible, I would certainly try to use this knowledge to improve the chance of survival of mankind. I doubt however if this knowledge would be useful besides answering some questions about our existence. An explanation about the creation of the universe won't feed anything but my thoughts...

UK

[tiger84]

Originally posted by will
where?

Well you might know more about if we in America didn't have this bad habit of promoting theories as fact. Evolution is not fact. It has not been proven. Go to yahoo and search for polonium radio halos...thats just the beginning. And I technically could ask you the same question. Go and expose yourself to the otherside of the argument. I don't really have much of a choice because evolution is shoved down my throat in public school as fact.

Originally posted by UpperKEES
Evolution scientists accept the fact that a lot is still unknown. They find no need is making assumptions without proof. How will you be able to find the real answers when you are already biased about gaps in our knowledge?

It's also time to accept that evolution isn't scientific fact. It is nothing more than theory!

[anubis2003]

wtf? why are you reacting like that? He just wanted to know where darwin rejected his theory(or at least, that's what I gathered).

And remember:

Here's the rules:

NO idea bashing - everyone has a right to their opinion

NO big fights

And I would prefer if you just said what you voted for and why you believe your opinion is correct, NOT why someone else's is wrong.

Anyways, creationism is also theory. This thread wouldn't have been made had either of them been fact - that would be pointless - which do you believe - something that is true, or something that may be.

[UpperKEES]

Originally posted by tiger84
Evolution is not fact. It has not been proven (...) I don't really have much of a choice because evolution is shoved down my throat in public school as fact. (...) It's also time to accept that evolution isn't scientific fact. It is nothing more than theory!

Evolution is not fact, but a theory of facts. Besides, how long didn't it take before schools started teaching about evolution? There are still lots of schools that don't educate in evolution because of religious reasons. A real shame! Teaching both theories is fine with me, although this must be (too) hard for some teachers...

UK

[will]

Originally posted by tiger84
It's also time to accept that evolution isn't scientific fact. It is nothing more than theory!

You say theory like its "just an idea". Thats wrong.

"just an idea" is a hypothsys
A theroy has evidence. Creationism doesn't.

All schools in the UK teach evolution. Why? Because its correct.

[apollos]

I like the idea of quantum mechanics, it's far more convincing, and sounds more logical than the rather poetic way the bible puts it.

Of course, when quantum mechanics are involved in the equation, the question remains, what is Gods role in the world? Does he exist at all and is there is a need to be able to question Gods existance? What then happens to peoples ideas of heaven, if the gaps are filled in and nobody can find God in the equation, then the existance of heaven and hell sounds primative and born of ignorance than anything else.

This is interesting stuff, I hope in my lifetime I will get more solid answers

[Raz]

Religion without Science is blind. Science without religion is lame. - Albert Einstein

[apollos]

Originally posted by Ryan
Religion without Science is blind. Science without religion is lame. - Albert Einstein

Yes, Einstein did sy this, but there was more a gap in knowledge when he was around, which allowed God to sit in, but now the gap is closing as science is eliminating God from the equation, and also, Einsteins theories cannot explain all of what science now has to say about space. Yes he was a great intelligent man, but he lived a long time ago and we have progressed dramatically since

[UpperKEES]

And Albert Einstein was so smart to understand how to get his at that time radical idea's accepted.

UK

[godoncrack]

The christian bible has two distinct tellings of time.
The "Seven Days" part, and the rest of the bible.
The rest of the bible defines time quite rigidly.
Adam lived for X years and died.
Abraham lived for Y years and died.
Noah sailed for 40 days and 40 nights.
But the first seven days.....it has no definitive time line.
Which means that the "Seven Days" part could be a guide to how the earth was made.
And the bible was right.
The universe + US came about in the order that it does in the Genisis section.
Universe, Sun, Earth, Plant, Animal, etc.
The bible does not say that dinosaurs never lived.
The "rest of the bible" section deals the with creation of us.
Yes?
Why would there be a need to include a list of species that came before us on this planet?
For hundreds of years people believed that we were the center of the universe, for the simple reason that it was god's will.
But there is no astronomy section of the bible.
It does not say that the earth is here, the sun is here, uranus is here, etc.
Just because RELIGION says that something is true, does not make it true.
If you belive in creationism, don't believe it because your preacher tells you what to believe.
And if you belive in Evolution, don't believe in it just because it goes against Religion.
The whole purpose to science is to find the truth.
If something is wrong with your theory, fix it.
Darwin DID NOT KNOW EVERYTHING
He had a theory, which is being shot down.
Evolution did not occur gradualy, it EXPLODED from fuckin no where.
For a billion years there was nothing but single celled organisms.
The with in the span of a few million years, plants, animals, other.
Shit just started sprouting up.
Why? God? Nature?
We really don't know.
And why is the argument always "SCIENCE VS GOD"?
Point to a section in the bible that says god is against science.
And i'll go to church on sunday
And Scientist are no more innocent.
They get use to seeing the world in a certain way and when some young upstarts begin to prove it wrong, THEY MUST DIE!!!!
But we are only human.
And yes running over stupid people would be a more productive activity than dicussing the orgins of EVERYTHING with people on an internet forum.
But we are only human.

[tiger84]

Originally posted by will
You say theory like its "just an idea". Thats wrong.

"just an idea" is a hypothsys
A theroy has evidence. Creationism doesn't.

All schools in the UK teach evolution. Why? Because its correct.

I'm sorry, did you just say what I think you said. Are you really that ignorant. Creationism has plenty of damned evidence. Both sides have their evidence...and I choose creationism. And don't go telling me evolution is correct...How the hell do you know? Have you been around since the beginning of time? What's that, no you haven't. Here's the deal, we as humans will never know with absolute certainty where he hell we came from...we can try and I'm not suggesting that we don't, but to say evolution is correct and creationism incorrect is a falacy. A BIG FALACY! A REALLY BIG FALACY!

And as for quantum mechanics. Really complicated stuff right. What are the mathematical odds that it just sort of happened with no intelligence organizing it?

[Nimelennar]

ahem... psst... fallacy has 2 "l"s

[ShyShy]

Alright, everyone just take one huge breath! will and tiger84, don't make me put you in seperate corners. In the end, those who firmly believe in either theories or whatever you choose to call it, will disagree. Now that's a fact. Doesn't matter how many links you post or scriptures you paste, both sides will debate the issue until the end of time. There, now play nicely boys.

[BullGawD]

huh. huhuh huh.

He sed Phallus.

[tiger84]

Originally posted by Nimelennar
ahem... psst... fallacy has 2 "l"s

I'm an engineer, spelling isn't my strong suit

[anubis2003]

Damn, people are really not following the rules(tiger). Don't idea bash - damn. That's not the purpose of this thread and could be classified as post pumping.

[White Raven]

Originally posted by tiger84
I'm sorry, did you just say what I think you said. Are you really that ignorant. Creationism has plenty of damned evidence. Both sides have their evidence...and I choose creationism. And don't go telling me evolution is correct...How the hell do you know? Have you been around since the beginning of time? What's that, no you haven't. Here's the deal, we as humans will never know with absolute certainty where he hell we came from...we can try and I'm not suggesting that we don't, but to say evolution is correct and creationism incorrect is a falacy. A BIG FALACY! A REALLY BIG FALACY!

And as for quantum mechanics. Really complicated stuff right. What are the mathematical odds that it just sort of happened with no intelligence organizing it?

Alright, I think we all need to settle down here. Anubis has reminded us of the rules before, and we're off doing it again, bashing each other.

I have stated my religious views in the previous thread -- go there if you want to see them.

As to tiger84 and will, I think we should calm down, alright? Your views are very much upheld and respected, if not to others but at least in my eyes, and both deserve equal amounts of deep thought and contemplation.

Both views are interesting, both have some fact (Or abscence of fact!) that begin to give titillations to our curiosity.

On this issue we cannot say who is right and who is wrong, those devout Christians on that site in that thread... They may be right. I may be right. You may be right.

Nobody may be right.

We will all find out. As much as some of us hate to think, one day, we will all die. Eventually, some sooner, some later. We will ALL die. Then, and only then, will we know.

[tiger84]

Originally posted by anubis2003
Damn, people are really not following the rules(tiger). Don't idea bash - damn. That's not the purpose of this thread and could be classified as post pumping.

When someone takes a pot shot at my beliefs I must defend them. I am not idea bashing. I haven't once said Evolution was wrong or that anyone who belives in it is an idiot...unlike somebody else I could mention.

[anubis2003]

[quote]NO idea bashing - everyone has a right to their opinion

NO big fights

And I would prefer if you just said what you voted for and why you believe your opinion is correct, NOT why someone else's is wrong./quote]

but to say evolution is correct and creationism incorrect is a falacy. A BIG FALACY! A REALLY BIG FALACY!

That's definitely trying to say that you are right, and will is wrong.