Are emulators bad?

[nybergh]

I read the game forum guidelines where the following is written by our old friend Mr Jones.

Don't ask for, or advertise, ROM's and Emulators , no matter how old, it's still bad....

Why? Just of curiosity: Are emulators illegal? I use an opensourced one called DOSbox (<=moderators, please note that I didn't link it ) to play old lucasarts and apogee productions and I didn't know it damages the owners of the games that I'm able to play their games 10 years later...

[Mr Jones]

According to Nintendo Legal...

How Does Nintendo Feel About the Emergence of Video Game Emulators?

The introduction of emulators created to play illegally copied Nintendo software represents the greatest threat to date to the intellectual property rights of video game developers. As is the case with any business or industry, when its products become available for free, the revenue stream supporting that industry is threatened. Such emulators have the potential to significantly damage a worldwide entertainment software industry which generates over $15 billion annually, and tens of thousands of jobs.

What Does Nintendo Think of the Argument that Emulators are Actually Good for Nintendo Because it Promotes the Nintendo Brand to PC Users and Leads to More Sales?

Distribution of an emulator developed to play illegally copied Nintendo software hurts Nintendo's goodwill, the millions of dollars invested in research & development and marketing by Nintendo and its licensees. Substantial damages are caused to Nintendo and its licensees. It is irrelevant whether or not someone profits from the distribution of an emulator. The emulator promotes the play of illegal ROMs , NOT authentic games. Thus, not only does it not lead to more sales, it has the opposite effect and purpose.

Read more,
http://nintendo.com/corp/legal.jsp

I'd expect any large company, MS, Sony etc etc, to follow similar guidelines, Nintendos is just easier to find.

[nybergh]

Now this is generalizing!
Ok, it's acceptable to dislike emulating of so called "closed platforms", where you even have to pay to for the official developing tools like most of the consoles over the years.

But PC (and MAC) is different aren't they?
The PC architecture is open since early 80's and some Mac-clones where manufactured without sucess in the first half of the 90's I think. So, these plaforms are OPEN!!!

It should be allowed to discuss DOS-emulators on this forum. Making them have required some hacking of the original DOS-code, sure, but there's even a OpenSource DOS-projekt on the web. Also remember that Compaq had to hack the IBM-PC BIOS to be able to release their first PC-clone. Some forms of hacking is just an appearance of healthy, natural human curiosity. Forbidding emulators is just as stupid and unuseful as suing a 15 year old norwegian boy for creating DeCSS.

And it's hipocritical that you allow discussing of DVD-ripping using software that removes CSS and Macrovision on a site owned by AOL Time Warner (a company that releases many DVD:s). The official statements of the Media Giants is that DeCSS is illegal becouse it contains HACKING of "secret" code. Bullshit! No code created by human beings have ever been secret for other humans in the long run.

So let's go back to the main topic of today. Playing Commander Keen, Monster Bash, Bio Menace, Duke Nukum, The Fate Of Atlantis, LeChuck's Revenge etc. on XP or Linux with full sound support is not pure evil, right? It doen't hurt MS, it doesn't hurt Apogee or Laucasarts (one year ago a actually purchased a package including Monkey Island 1, 2 & 3. I wouldn't be able to play the first two ones with all features without DOSbox.)

In other words the guidelines should be corrected to

"Don't ask for, or advertise, ROM's and Emulators for closed platforms like PSX, Nintendo and GameCube, no matter how old, it's still bad....

So, Mr Jones, are you going to edit this link to http://www.dosbox.sourceforge.net?

[Mr Jones]

Originally posted by nybergh
Now this is generalizing!

Yes, because in case you hadn't notice, it's a general style forum, populated by the general public, hence why the guidelines are "general", or hadn't you worked that out?

I don't know or have the time and patience to distinguish what emulator for what system, that emulates what software might or might not have legal implications for these forums,and I would say neitehr do any of the other moderators or admins who frequent this place. So as a general rule of thumb we ask that you don't ask for them, or link up for them.

It's a fairly simple concept to grasp.

As is usual, if you don't care for any of the guidelines set forth on any of these forums, then please feel free to stop using them whenever you like

[nybergh]

General, sure. But why "limited"?

This was just some constuctive feedback to make these forums even better!
U have to admit "emulators" are a quite big sphere. And by not having inexact rules you might even bring more here to look at all those wonderful ads. This "lose your tummy"-thing is actually one of my
favourites! It reminds me of a spam I got last spring: "You can be taller! At any age!")
and some more people might even click them, with the result that Nullsoft and AOL gets some money, right. See, I'm just trying to help!

Or let's say most companies see feedback as contructive and a good way to improve their services. I don't know how it is about Nullsoft (what were these forums originally for if not user feedback?). I would personally see the services of these forums as improved if somebody would fix that byrocratic inexactness. And where's the general IT-tech forum??? We're waiting for it!

(hmm, you didn't comment what I said about the DVD-rip thingy. How strange.)

[Mr Jones]

Originally posted by nybergh

U have to admit "emulators" are a quite big sphere.

Yes, they are, hence why we take a fairly broad view on the subject, as I say, we don't have the time or resources to ensure every link that might get posted has some kind of legal ramification for us.

As for general tech support, don't hold your breath, probably never happen, been discussed and in the short term there are more pressing issues at hand, like the forthcoming arrival of WA5 and the 1000's more people/questions that will be generated because of it.

I didn't comment on the DVD thingy, because I don't see the comparrison.

Anyhow, I'm off now, have some real work to do.

[nybergh]

<To Mr Jones when his *REAL_WORK* is done>

1000's more people/questions that will be generated because of it.

A great thing with discussion forums on the WWW is that everyone can answer. The generaltech support could be "used at everyones own risk" with BIG pure USA-style warning text on that neither AOL or Nullsoft take any responsibility for any info released there. But no, bad idea, it would make these forums more popular... Or are u out of server Disk-space @ Nullsoft, huh?

I didn't comment on the DVD thingy, because I don't see the comparrison

BEEP! WRONG ANSWER! PLEASE TRY AGAIN! BEEEEP!
Didn't WANT to see the comparision, right?

What I wanted to say is that the forum-guidelines allow one kind of non-evil "hacking" (in this case "use of advanced and powerful decrypting tools" like DVDDecrypter) that is actually against AOL Time Warner's (AOL TW=General Media Giant) general statement while not accepting another form of harcore nerding, playing SNES games with emulators. What a nobrainer!

(Hey, I'm a mind-reader, your next argument is that you think I sound pathetic when I'm trying to be a bussinessconsultant for one of the big Media Giants.)
</To Mr Jones when his *REAL_WORK* is done>

[sgtfuzzbubble011]

A great thing with discussion forums on the WWW is that everyone can answer.

Does that mean that everyone's answers are going to be the right ones? There are a bunch of very dedicated and hard-working people (moderators and members alike) that help out with Winamp-related tech support on these forums, and they do it out of their own free time. They don't get paid for this. And the fact remains, a handful of people doing tech support is no match for an influx of thousands of newbie questions all at once. Point being, what Jones said is right. We don't have the resources or time to make sure that every single link or reference to a game emulator won't have any legal ramifications for Nullsoft or AOL. And just because AOL doesn't actually maintain these forums (even though these forums are owned by AOL) doesn't mean that we don't have to abide by their legal statutes. Sorry if you don't like the way things are, but we can't change that.

[laz]

Ok, how I view it, and how it should be viewed as in by law (arnt I forceful?).
The emulator is A-OK. It in itself does not do anything illegal, it is not infringing on any copywrites, it is only there to promote thought and wonder how do you get to do something. Like it involves a lot of tinkering to figure out how to make a working emulator.
But for ROMS, I do not see the point of going after roms of games that are no longer being made, there is no way the company can profit off of the games, so there is no money to lose in that.
But if you are going and say downloading GBA games, now that is wrong, and evil. The games done cost that much, and nore does the system. If the company has money to lose, it is wrong.
But if you go and download a SNES or NES game, I see nothing wrong with it. Nintendo does not continue to make the game, nore do they profit off of it anymore.

I can see your point as to you dont want any sort of emulation talk b/ you do not know if it could get you guys in legal problems. But that is still kind of weak, seeing just even having the forums could get you in legal problems.

[sgtfuzzbubble011]

But that is still kind of weak

Weak or not, that's how it is.

[laz]

I understand, but then again, and MP3 player can be used to do illegal activitys, but I dont... well I better keep my shitty day to myself, sorry.

edit: sorry, bad day...

[bored154]

Illegal Emulators: Bad
Ones you buy from like... Apple.com(PC Emulator): Good

does that sum it up for ya?

[Fickle]

Originally posted by nybergh
<To Mr Jones when his *REAL_WORK* is done>

A great thing with discussion forums on the WWW is that everyone can answer. The generaltech support could be "used at everyones own risk" with BIG pure USA-style warning text on that neither AOL or Nullsoft take any responsibility for any info released there. But no, bad idea, it would make these forums more popular... Or are u out of server Disk-space @ Nullsoft, huh?


BEEP! WRONG ANSWER! PLEASE TRY AGAIN! BEEEEP!
Didn't WANT to see the comparision, right?

What I wanted to say is that the forum-guidelines allow one kind of non-evil "hacking" (in this case "use of advanced and powerful decrypting tools" like DVDDecrypter) that is actually against AOL Time Warner's (AOL TW=General Media Giant) general statement while not accepting another form of harcore nerding, playing SNES games with emulators. What a nobrainer!

(Hey, I'm a mind-reader, your next argument is that you think I sound pathetic when I'm trying to be a bussinessconsultant for one of the big Media Giants.)
</To Mr Jones when his *REAL_WORK* is done>

You try to talk like you sound like a lawyer, but still come off like a five year old, because you're missing the point:
If you want to talk about it/give out warez, Find another place to go, because it ain't gonna happen here. Who cares if it's hypocritical, many people dig it here and no one is twisting your arm to stay.

And the general staement is vague so that it encompasses everything without encompassing everything. If they get in trouble, they can say the poster was going against the rules.
All rules are considered to be vague to some degree, to allow for interpretation.

It all boils down to the point that you don't have to like it, you don't have to stay. If you like it here (like many do) you'll stay. If not, well, tough titty.

[Omega X]

Originally posted by nybergh
I read the game forum guidelines where the following is written by our old friend Mr Jones.

Why? Just of curiosity: Are emulators illegal? I use an opensourced one called DOSbox (<=moderators, please note that I didn't link it ) to play old lucasarts and apogee productions and I didn't know it damages the owners of the games that I'm able to play their games 10 years later...

Technically Emulators are not Illegal. The only Emulators that are Illegal are the ones that emulate current consoles in the market. The Majority of the Emulation community focuses obsolete consoles that house games that were out during that time but hasn't or ever made it to a sequel or able to be played on current consoles.

Its basically done for preservation purposes because people loved those games enough to create the means to go back and play them again. Game companies are NOW just getting the picture that you can't kill the popularity of a game with a new console. Much like a popular song that was written long ago.

Despite how Nintendo feels about Emulators that play their obsolete games, it only provides free promotion for their company and their products. Which is the reason for its lack of total crackdown. Plus there was a ruling made by a judge some time ago about these types of emulators which made them legal because it didn't infringe on copyrights.

Also there is a recent news release from the Librarian of Congress stating the exemptions of Obsolete ROM's from the DCMA.

Link:
ROM's Made Legal

[nybergh]

Originally posted by Fickle
You try to talk like you sound like a lawyer, but still come off like a five year old

Actually I'm 16. And I like to disuss as I do. Do U have anything against lawyers?

...because you're missing the point:
If you want to talk about it/give out warez, Find another place to go, because it ain't gonna happen here.

Shareware anno 1990 = Warez?
any_DVD_in_my_own_collection=Warez?
When did I mention my interest in warez? Actually I don't think I did that. If I did, forget it i wrote it clumsy so that you misunderstood it?

Who cares if it's hypocritical

I used the word hypocritical becouse it usually makes people pissed off. U just say "so what".

...many people dig it here and no one is twisting your arm to stay.

I know that, and generally I don't have much to moan about [on this forum] so I don't think it's overdone to start a critical discussion when you've finally found something that could be improved

It all boils down to the point that you don't have to like it, you don't have to stay. If you like it here (like many do) you'll stay. If not, well, tough titty.

I will stay, becouse generally this is a good forum. C'mon are you all that bad on taking feedback? I tried to be nice, I used a in my first post, didn't I?

[nybergh]

Originally posted by sgtfuzzbubble99
Does that mean that everyone's answers are going to be the right ones? There are a bunch of very dedicated and hard-working people (moderators and members alike) that help out with Winamp-related tech support on these forums, and they do it out of their own free time. They don't get paid for this. And the fact remains, a handful of people doing tech support is no match for an influx of thousands of newbie questions all at once. Point being, what Jones said is right. We don't have the resources or time to make sure that every single link or reference to a game emulator won't have any legal ramifications for Nullsoft or AOL. And just because AOL doesn't actually maintain these forums (even though these forums are owned by AOL) doesn't mean that we don't have to abide by their legal statutes. Sorry if you don't like the way things are, but we can't change that.

This was the answer I wanted from Mr Jones. Thanx sgtfuzzbubble99!

[zootm]

i use a playstation emulator so we can use our playstation games in my room. sony manufactures and sells playstations at a loss - i don't understand what problem people would have with my playing legal game CDs on my PC.

[Coman]

In response to a filing by Brewster Kahle of The Internet Archive, Lawrence Lessig of Creative Commons, and others, the Librarian of Congress granted access exemptions from copyright protection measures in the Digital Millennium Copyright Act to obsolete videogames. The exemption applies to games that require the original media or hardware as a condition of access, and it determines a format obsolete ⌠if the machine or system necessary to render perceptible a work stored in that format is no longer manufactured or is no longer reasonably available in the commercial marketplace.¡

According to the original filing, the exemption was proposed in order to migrate degraded and obsolete works to modern storage systems, and enable ⌠archiving, future scholarship, and commentary.¡

[Viper007Bond]

So, NES, SNES, etc. emulators are legit and legal. That's why I have 'em.

[BullGawD]

Well now, see, that is still questionable, it's like that DirectTV lawsuit (start at the botton) I read about where possession of the technology was used as grounds for a lawsuit charging illegal activity. Emulators themselves are very borderline.

Furthermore, the act deals, not with emulators, but with the data itself. This means that the subject is still touchy, especially as a lot of the better games are being revised/rereleased, so that copyright and such still applies. Immediate example in my mind is Legend of Zelda - Link to the Past, and all those Mario ports on GBA.

Not to mention, you all know well and good we're not arguing ideals here. Odds are, if Nintendo came after you, as a person, you would lose in or out of court no matter how right you might be. The monetary resources and legal means availabe to a corporation would simply crush you - you simply could not afford the time or money it would take to refute their charges, proactive motions, preemptive motions, etc etc etc.

[sgtfuzzbubble011]

The real point is this...

Don't post links to ROMs on these forums until we're told otherwise by the powers that be. If the head honchos that run these forums don't want ROMs being posted, then us moderators are obligated to enforce that rule. As it is right now, posting ROMs on these forums is still against the rules... and it doesn't matter if the ROM is legal or not. In other words, don't do it.

[ftr]

Here's the full lowdown. I've been using emu's and roms for ages now, I know about this stuff...

Like was said, emulators you BUY (such as Bleem!, the pc one for mac etc) are LEGAL. However, if no price is paid, then technically it's legal, as long as

a) you already own the game you downloaded for that system

OR

b) you delete the rom within 24 hours.

[xzxzzx]

Originally posted by ftr
Here's the full lowdown. I've been using emu's and roms for ages now, I know about this stuff...

a) you already own the game you downloaded for that system

OR

b) you delete the rom within 24 hours.

Um. Yeah, the whole "delete the rom within 24 hours" thing is complete bullshit. There is no legal protection with that. Now, arguably, #1 is accurate, due to this:

http://www.copyright.gov/1201/

But any way you look at it, the DMCA is a piece of shit. (Didn't excpect that out of ME, did ya? )

[sgtfuzzbubble011]

ftr said...
Here's the full lowdown. I've been using emu's and roms for ages now, I know about this stuff...

Like was said, emulators you BUY (such as Bleem!, the pc one for mac etc) are LEGAL. However, if no price is paid, then technically it's legal, as long as

a) you already own the game you downloaded for that system

OR

b) you delete the rom within 24 hours.

Did you even read what I said? It doesn't matter if it's legal or not. It's against the rules of these forums. Don't like it? Nobody's twisting your arm to stay here.

And anyone that posts ROMs here will be delt with accordingly.

[whiteflip]

What if you post a rom that you yourself made or one that isnt copyrighted. There are people that make their own games for various emulators. Those are legal and free to discuss and distribute right?

[sgtfuzzbubble011]

If someone makes a game and posts it, then there's no problem. But if someone makes a ROM of a game and posts it, then that's against the forum rules.

[xzxzzx]

"A rom" would be considered a copy of a game which comes from Read Only Memory (a Nintendo cartrage, for example), correct, sgt?

[Mike H.]

(3) Computer programs and video games distributed in formats that have become obsolete and which require the original media or hardware as a condition of access. A format shall be considered obsolete if the machine or system necessary to render perceptible a work stored in that format is no longer manufactured or is no longer reasonably available in the commercial marketplace.

This seems to legalize all ROMs for older game systems.

[laz]

Good point Mike H.
That makes me wonder just how fucked up the US copyright system is.

[sgtfuzzbubble011]

xzxzzx said...
"A rom" would be considered a copy of a game which comes from Read Only Memory (a Nintendo cartrage, for example), correct, sgt?

Personally, I would consider a ROM to be any game that isn't in it's original distribution format. So, for example... a copy of Super Mario 3 for the computer would be a ROM since the game originally came only in cartridge format for the NES, SNES, and now GBA. This goes for all game systems, too... not just Nintendo.

So, for the sake of these forums, we'll just say that any game not originally made for the computer would be considered a ROM. Also, posting "warez" versions of computer games is against the rules, too.

[sgtfuzzbubble011]

Mike H. said...
This seems to legalize all ROMs for older game systems.

Well, like I said before, it doesn't matter if the ROM itself it actually legal... posting it would be against the forum rules.

[DragonSon]

I myself don't play ROMS. They just defeat the purpose of playing the game on a console that I already own.

[xzxzzx]

Originally posted by Mike H.
This seems to legalize all ROMs for older game systems.

No, because this is only about the DMCA. Other copyright laws still apply.

sgt: Ok, so a game made specifically for a SNES Emulator (for example) would be OK, then, right? [edit] clarification: one that never was intented to work on a SNES, and never has been on a cartrage [/edit]

As for the purpose of ROMs: they look better (a lot better!) and sometimes play better on the PC. You can use any controller you want. You can go from Super Mario World to Unreal II without getting up. Etc, etc, etc.

[sgtfuzzbubble011]

sgt: Ok, so a game made specifically for a SNES Emulator (for example) would be OK, then, right? [edit] clarification: one that never was intented to work on a SNES, and never has been on a cartrage [/edit]

If it was originally intended to be played on a computer (and is in it's original distribution format, and is also not a warez version), then I don't see a problem with it. It would still be a ROM in technical terms, but it wouldn't be a "ROM" in the sense that the rules specify.

[Coman]

so is hosting roms on your site legal now?

[xzxzzx]

No.

[whiteflip]

I found this "game" online at this website which i wont mention because it features "roms" and "emulators" but its for the Sega Genisis and its called "Street Fucker." Its hilariously funny and can be strangely addictive.

[c2R]

Re: MonkeyIsland...

Just wondering if you've all seen ScummVM http://www.scummvm.org/ - a freeware windows frontend to allow you to play scumm games like Monkey Island (o:

[nybergh]

Yeah, I've played Beneath A Steel Sky using SCUMMVM. AMazing work.

c2r, how did you find this thread? It's been dead for a little while but mr jones got quite pissed off on me becouse of the first quite flamy posts. I still have some serious threat-messages laying around my PM inbox, LOL .

[Bilbo Baggins]

Originally posted by c2R
Re: MonkeyIsland...

Just wondering if you've all seen ScummVM http://www.scummvm.org/ - a freeware windows frontend to allow you to play scumm games like Monkey Island (o:

You can also get a SCUMM emultor to run on Windows based smartphones.