2 more Black Hawks down - 17 dead

[marvinbarcelona]

2 more Black Hawk helicopters have been downed in Iraq. Witnesses are saying that one appears to have been hit by an RPG and then collided with the other. At least 17 are reported dead and at least another one missing.

This just gets worse, people.

BBC News

[ShyShy]

[marvinbarcelona]

I've read some where, that many military thinkers have been reconsidering the effectiveness of helicopters in the field. While they are invaluable behind the front line, it is becoming increasingly obvious how vulnerable they are when coming under fire or actually on the battle field its self. The new breed of RPG just moves too fast to allow them to manoeuvre out of the way. This was brought into sharp contrast with the US in Somalia.

Any thoughts?

[fwgx]

Air forces have always worked to make planes as fast as possible and yet helicopters are still used that can barely top 100mph. Now if they were built like tanks they'd be ok but they clearly can't be. But I never really saw how a black hawk can be that effective in a battle situation, it's not amazingly equiped with fire power or defences. Apache helicopters on the other hand are much more resistant to attacks and carry superb fire power and will be better in combat.

The sight of Apache helicopters everywhere is clearly not a good sign in Iraq, the Black Hawk is much less fearsome and less obviously an all out killing machine.

And yes black hawk down is an amazing film.

I knew it'd happen

the media compares the war to blackhawk down
x2 if its because a blackhawk really goes down

[Namelessv1]

It is very true that the MH-60 Black Hawk helicopter is very vunerable in hostile airspace, especially considering it was intended for night time operations. However, air insertion by fixed wing aircraft seems infeasible. There is no place for a transport plane such as the C-130 to land, and most of the these troops are not trained in HALO insertions.

Originally posted by marvinbarcelona
I've read some where, that many military thinkers have been reconsidering the effectiveness of helicopters in the field. While they are invaluable behind the front line, it is becoming increasingly obvious how vulnerable they are when coming under fire or actually on the battle field its self. The new breed of RPG just moves too fast to allow them to manoeuvre out of the way. This was brought into sharp contrast with the US in Somalia.

Any thoughts?

Well, there were several reasons why that operation in Mogadishu was such a disaster. One glaringly obvious reason was that there was no fire support. Someone vetoed the decision to have AC-130 Spectre gunships providing close air support. If the AC-130's were there, the Black Hawk's would not have been forced to orbit the target building to provide fire support for the Rangers guarding the target building the Delta Force operators inside. It would have changed the entire complextion of the operation. Super Six One and Super Six Four wouldn't even be in a position to be shor down by rpg'sin the first place.

But from reading the article, it actually says missile and not rpg, which is quite suspicious. One of the Black Hawk's could been shot by a Stinger missile, which has tracking capabilities. It doesn't even take a good shot to take down a low flying Black Hawk with one of those.

[Bazman63]

I'm a big fan of Helos. In a former life I was required to leap from a moving Helo on many an occassion.

The benefits far outweigh the negative aspects. Blackhawk types are a truly efficient way of moving troops, supplies etc quickly and accurately to a given location. Air support from Helos against local infantry and irregular units is often more effective than by fixed wing as the fire platform is on the higher ground, static and mobile at once. Tank busters, medi vac, re-supply and retraction, the list goes on. The military have always known of the vulnerability, (Vietnam), and have scaled back relience on air mobile infantry. Although there has been a slight increase again, due mainly to costs of trucking troops aroung in a hurry to get to reletivley small scale engagements.
The UK has been steadily upgrading it's Helo's for years and Light Division infantry regiments use them much of the time.
The current crop of US helo's are second to none in the world, it's not the tool there's a problem with, it the idiots using them, and the poor sods in them, in the wrong way.

[hgnis]

I saw this today. Really disenchanting considering where the technology is today. How many troops have been lost in the last 10 years because of air incidents? I really think something better could be done.

[duh]

your 78 billion tax dollars at work...

[ertmann|CPH]

Who knows, Baghdad might just turn into another Mogadishu for the americans.... obviouly they can't continue their current policy... And while i feel sorry for the families of the late soldiers, i can't help feeling the americans asked for this themselves.

[horse-fly]

methinks that we have killed more of our soldiers than the iraqis have

[Impaled King Me]

Rules of engagement, CHANGE IT!!! I say kill stupid iraq's that gather around crash sites and celebrate like it's some big deal. Clearly, give em a chance and a gun..they'd shoot anything american Yeah! line them up baby and unload those M-16's.Ratatatat

[marvinbarcelona]

Impaled King Me : Grow up.

[Bazman63]

I'm willing to bet that your not old enough to have ever been in any armed service.

I'll put this plainly so you stand a chance of understanding it.

Dead bodies smell. They smell really, really bad. They smell of old blood, shit, piss and half digested food. Before that they scream and scream really really loud, then wimper, moan and cry. Most, just before they die, cry out for their mothers.

You think it's fun?

They don't get up again, jump back into the DVD case and carry on.

Dialogue first, dialogue second, dialouge last. No excuses. No substitutes.

[marvinbarcelona]

Amen, Bazman63, amen.