Important message regarding incomplete classic skins.

Wildrose-Wally · 5th March 2005, 01:39

Well, you all remember the great database cleanup? It's about to happen again.

This time we will work on completing the skins in the database that are not up to the standards of Winamp 5.

The first fase will be to move all the incomplete skins to a newly created category. They will not be mixed in with the completed skins anymore.

We hope the authors of those skins will update them and re-submit. At that time they will be moved back to the appropriate categories.

Failing that, we will now allow the public (that is you) to complete these skins and post your completed bmp's in a zip file in this thread. I will re-publish them in a special account to be created for that purpose. Something like we did with the "Nullsoft Skinz" account.

There will be some restrictions. This will not be remixing the skins, just completing them. The only accepted new bmp's will be the gen, genex and video bmp's. The video bmp should be a modified browser bmp, while the gen bmp should be taken from the playlist to keep as close as possible to the original design. You will not be able to submit these skins yourself.

Please keep this thread clean. Any posts in this thread that are not related to this project will be removed.

StillWater · 5th March 2005, 05:43

That's a great idea about allowing people to port the new windows. It's maybe not 100% kosher regarding copyright, but I think the transperent and standardised way you propse to do it shows respect to the authors, and it'll no doubt mean that many old favourites will once again become fully functioning skins, even though their authors may long have left the skinnin scene.

k_rock923 · 5th March 2005, 15:21

I don't feel that it's the greatest idea to allow the public to update the skins. While I realize that it would allow skins to be updated. I feel that it is disrespectful to the original authors. Even though these authors may not frequent the skinning forums anymore, I still feel as if we should respect their work and keep the policy the way it is now. With such restrictions on where the designs for the new windows may come from, why not just make some sort of program to automatically update them based on the other files?

Wildrose-Wally · 5th March 2005, 15:53

Even though you might be right, Winamp is changing. The old team is gone, the Winamp client we are so used to will change with the next major release, and the incomplete skins have a limited shelf life in the date base.

As for me, I have always turned away skins submitted that updated other skins, exactly as I am promoting now, quite an irony I would say. However, if incomplete skins get purged from the database, they are lost. I'd rather have them updated than lost.

That being said, I do want to preserve the original design, and that is why the restrictions on how to update these skins. The product that will be published after the update will be the original skin, unaltered in any way, with the addition of three new bmp's that will be produced in the style of the original work.

It would be nice if the authors could all be contacted to let them know their skins require an update, but even though that might be possible on a lot of them, it is not as easy as it used to be, as e-mail addresses are no longer published.

Also, with the move to this new design of the website, and accompanying review system, we have also lost the ability to update skins on the original authors skin account, that is why we will have to create a separate account for these updated skins to be published under.

On a final note, the original author will have the right to update his own skins, and his update will trump any update someone else might have made for it. Failing that, the original author will also have the right to request the removal of his work from the database.

I know a lot of authors don't really want to be bothered with their skins anymore, but don't really like to see them summarily removed neither. This would be a reasonable compromise.

Now as for a tool to automatically do this, a tool could not get everything just right. The additional bmp's would still have to be edited by hand to get the desired results.

Now you can also help by directing as many original authors as you can to this thread.

flatmatt · 5th March 2005, 19:37

I may just have to update my older skins now that they're threatened with eventual removal.

xenosomething · 5th March 2005, 20:15

how long do i have to update my incomplete skin?

also, if a skin creator says they will add the needed things but doesnt have the time to do it at the moment or just simply needs some more time to finish it, will "public updates" be disallowed on that skin?

....and even though i will complete my skins, i would rather see my skin be completely removed instead of someone else finishing off whats mine.

Wildrose-Wally · 5th March 2005, 20:24

Quote:

Originally posted by xenosomething
how long do i have to update my incomplete skin?

also, if a skin creator says they will add the needed things but doesnt have the time to do it at the moment or just simply needs some more time to finish it, will "public updates" be disallowed on that skin?

....and even though i will complete my skins, i would rather see my skin be completely removed instead of someone else finishing off whats mine.

The time line is not certain at this time, but should be at least a year.
Post your skin name and CID and we'll call it "off limits"

xenosomething · 5th March 2005, 20:34

alright sounds fine to me.

StillWater · 6th March 2005, 01:54

Quote:

Originally posted by xenosomething
....and even though i will complete my skins, i would rather see my skin be completely removed instead of someone else finishing off whats mine.

Hmmm. Me, I'm the opposite: I would be quite flattered to see that someone liked my skin enough to update it, and that they had enough respect for it to redo it keeping strictly to the original style.

xenosomething · 6th March 2005, 02:47

just would kinda irk me.

kinda like a getting a physical. you know its for a good reason, but still...you know?

dlinkwit27 · 6th March 2005, 04:07

please tell me you arn't going to get rid of the classics by Steve Moss and others that are "broke" now but still hold places int eh top downlaoded!

LuigiHann · 6th March 2005, 04:30

I would happily update any and all of Steve Moss's skins, now that I have photoshop. Hopefully nobody's in a hurry, because I won't be doing any skinning this week.

tydogg · 6th March 2005, 04:55

But what about you takeover of 1k1winampskins?

dlinkwit27 · 6th March 2005, 16:16

luigi >> i started to update Moss' "Major Tom" this but never got around to finishing it. if you want to contiue it, be my guest. I also have the PSD if you'd like it.

LuigiHann · 14th March 2005, 22:21

Did I take too many liberties with the sliders? I didn't really know what to do with them so I took them from the volume and playlist sliders, and I think they came out all right, but a little weird. What do you guys think? I hope this is okay...
Add the 3 files in the zip to the original or 'remix' skin found here: http://memlo.net/gallery/majortom.htm
Is it wrong that I really really want to fix the bug in the EW winshade button?

LuigiHann · 15th March 2005, 00:00

This one's a little more basic. Should I be posting these in the other thread? I made a new thread in case anyone wanted to comment on them in wouldn't clutter Wally's official thread

Wildrose-Wally · 15th March 2005, 01:21

Should be in the original thread, maybe a mod wants to do the "merge"

And no, no bugfixing allowed, all we want is the 3 additional files.

dlinkwit27 · 15th March 2005, 02:43

a) just outa curiosity, did you use any of the bmp i posted earlier?

b) I think instead of "winamp library" it should say somethign else. In teh origional, the main window is called "ground control" and the playlist "guidance", etc., so the media library should have something as...spacey I think. Perhaps...idk..."Data Archive" or something like that.

LuigiHann · 15th March 2005, 03:02

I started to use yours, but then I realized the way I wanted the buttons it would have to not be in a frame the way you had it, so I ended up doing it from scratch. And the only way to get it to say something other than winamp library would be to come up with a cryptogram for it and reorder the alphabet.

and then who knows what the AVS or other programs would say. I thought about changing the video window text, but I figured "data relay" was as good as anything, and most people with the video window don't have a minibrowser anymore, so nobody should notice.

LuigiHann · 15th March 2005, 03:09

I guess I should post them in here from now on, and see if my other thread gets merged in.

LuigiHann · 15th March 2005, 03:11

Don't use the last version of the Steel This Amp updates, I screwed up those extra four genex colors. Please use this one instead (unless people like purple and yellow)

edit: It's up already?

Umm... You might want to change it to this one, but it's up to you I guess.

LuigiHann · 15th March 2005, 19:29

LuigiHann · 16th March 2005, 18:51

I think after this I'll do eIndia, and then I'm done.

LuigiHann · 16th March 2005, 19:50

Okay, that's all for now. I dunno if I'm going to start a new skin of my own very soon, maybe-maybe not.

dimichan · 17th March 2005, 03:18

*waves sheepishly* hi all...

I'm trying to rescue the hard drive that has my original skins on it, it fell down went boom some time ago, actually my whole computer went to the great microchip haven in the sky... but I'll try to get at least my more recent efforts updated and keep everyone posted since I figure some of them aren't something any sane person wants to tackle

StillWater · 17th March 2005, 08:44

Well I'll be!

Hey Dimichan!

dlinkwit27 · 18th March 2005, 01:47

luigi rocks!

LuigiHann · 18th March 2005, 14:29

Thanks Dlink.
They left the old staff reviews up, apparently from when Steve Moss added the avs.bmp and stuff to his skins, so several of the reviews say something like "Thanks for updating, Steve" or "Updated by the original author" which I think might confuse the heck out of people, but what do I know...
And hey Dimichan, good luck updating your skins too.

Wildrose-Wally · 18th March 2005, 22:52

Consumption, Nature and Retro have been cleared of incomplete skins, next will be Transportation.

Some skins have been updated, the first one was Mastro Fusion Amp, updated by myself. Luigi updated 6 of Steve Moss' skins, Thanks Luigi.

The Staff reviews have been edited to avoid cunfusion.

If you are lookin for incomplete skins to update, look in the "Incomplete" category, they will all end up there eventually.

dlinkwit27 · 18th March 2005, 23:42

I'll have a go @ Fossil 2002 Classic if nobody else has started on it.

------------------------------------
luigi said:

Quote:

I started to use yours, but then I realized the way I wanted the buttons it would have to not be in a frame the way you had it, so I ended up doing it from scratch.

fair enough. All I did was copy and paste sections from pledit.bmp and avs.bmp. That's prbly what i'll do to fossil also, unless it doesn't work, then i'll do some real work on it.

-----------------------------------
idk about the rest of you, but I think that stillwater would be perfect for updating
Act2 Finale by Raj I/O.

I suggest Xenosomething for Relic and for Water Elemental

% these skinners used to be on these boards, are theys til around??

Wildrose-Wally · 19th March 2005, 00:34

The creator of Fossil is active in the AVS forum
http://forums.winamp.com/member.php?...o&userid=55006

Quote:

All I did was copy and paste sections from pledit.bmp and avs.bmp

Don't use the AVS bmp, use the pledit bmp instead.

dlinkwit27 · 19th March 2005, 00:47

I did for some, but some sections were differently sized, so I cheated

Did the author of Fossil say he would update it, or should I PM him?

Wildrose-Wally · 19th March 2005, 00:52

I PM'd him the link to this thread 15 minutes ago, we'll see what happens.

Yathosho · 19th March 2005, 00:55

hello, just got a pm on this. i'll have a look at what it takes to make my fossil skin support all winamp 5 features. as i didn't skin winamp since 1998, i'm wondering if i have to use some entirely new skinning format or if just have to add new bitmaps.

i didn't skin all fossil windows in the past, as the classic skin format has its limits (i.e. gradients in playlist) and i didn't want to spend too much time on learning the new skinning format. so maybe better count on an updated beamp, than on a new fossil.. but that's not a final word.

i'm thankful for hints

Wildrose-Wally · 19th March 2005, 01:01

All it takes is 3 additional bmp's and you're up to date.

Grab the files from the default skin here:
http://www3.telus.net/wildrosewally/gen.bmp
http://www3.telus.net/wildrosewally/genex.bmp
http://www3.telus.net/wildrosewally/video.bmp

LuigiHann · 19th March 2005, 01:34

I found the easiest way to make the gen.bmp was to use the old minibrowser, because the borders all match except for the bottom. The hardest part is the genex.bmp, between doing the colors and making the sliders...

dlinkwit27 · 19th March 2005, 02:43

Now that I think about it, I think I did use the MiniBrowser instead of the AVS.

Quote:

Originally posted by wildrose-wally
All it takes is 3 additional bmp's and you're up to date.

Grab the files from the default skin here:
http://www3.telus.net/wildrosewally/gen.bmp
http://www3.telus.net/wildrosewally/genex.bmp
http://www3.telus.net/wildrosewally/video.bmp

I could be wrong, and most likely am, but isn't gen and genex pretty much the same thing, and you only need genex? Or does genex take the place of avs.bmp or somethign like that?

I'm 99% sure that one of the 'gen' .bmp's is able to take the place of some other .bmp.

LuigiHann · 19th March 2005, 02:48

You're thinking of numbers.bmp and nums_ex.bmp. Gen and genex are different and both necessary. Look at them and see.

dlinkwit27 · 19th March 2005, 03:31

damn. So close, and yet so far

Yathosho · 19th March 2005, 12:13

Quote:

Originally posted by wildrose-wally
All it takes is 3 additional bmp's and you're up to date.

Grab the files from the default skin here:
http://www3.telus.net/wildrosewally/gen.bmp
http://www3.telus.net/wildrosewally/genex.bmp
http://www3.telus.net/wildrosewally/video.bmp

cool, i forgot that i skinned these before for the beamp skin.

@dlinkwit27: thanks for your offer to help on the fossil, but if you don't mind, i'd like to try.. i might come back at you, if i have problems

the reason why i added the classic to the skin name a while ago, was the idea to create an entirely new fossil. i was pretty satisfied with the original back then, but i can do much better now.

5th March 2005, 01:39	#1
Wildrose-Wally The Albertan Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Sunny Southern Alberta Posts: 6,050	Important message regarding incomplete classic skins. Well, you all remember the great database cleanup? It's about to happen again. This time we will work on completing the skins in the database that are not up to the standards of Winamp 5. The first fase will be to move all the incomplete skins to a newly created category. They will not be mixed in with the completed skins anymore. We hope the authors of those skins will update them and re-submit. At that time they will be moved back to the appropriate categories. Failing that, we will now allow the public (that is you) to complete these skins and post your completed bmp's in a zip file in this thread. I will re-publish them in a special account to be created for that purpose. Something like we did with the "Nullsoft Skinz" account. There will be some restrictions. This will not be remixing the skins, just completing them. The only accepted new bmp's will be the gen, genex and video bmp's. The video bmp should be a modified browser bmp, while the gen bmp should be taken from the playlist to keep as close as possible to the original design. You will not be able to submit these skins yourself. Please keep this thread clean. Any posts in this thread that are not related to this project will be removed. "We are all faced with a series of great opportunities brilliantly disguised as impossible situations." ~ Charles R. Swindoll

5th March 2005, 05:43	#2
StillWater Forum King Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Nov 1978 Posts: 3,880	That's a great idea about allowing people to port the new windows. It's maybe not 100% kosher regarding copyright, but I think the transperent and standardised way you propse to do it shows respect to the authors, and it'll no doubt mean that many old favourites will once again become fully functioning skins, even though their authors may long have left the skinnin scene. Sow a thought, reap an action; sow an action, reap a habit; sow a habit, reap a character; sow a character, reap a destiny. All my skins: @ winamp.com @ 1K1WS @ Deviantart.com My latest Flash Project: BreathingEarth.net

5th March 2005, 15:21	#3
k_rock923 \m/ (Forum King) Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: /bin/bash Posts: 7,786	I don't feel that it's the greatest idea to allow the public to update the skins. While I realize that it would allow skins to be updated. I feel that it is disrespectful to the original authors. Even though these authors may not frequent the skinning forums anymore, I still feel as if we should respect their work and keep the policy the way it is now. With such restrictions on where the designs for the new windows may come from, why not just make some sort of program to automatically update them based on the other files? Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.

5th March 2005, 15:53	#4
Wildrose-Wally The Albertan Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Sunny Southern Alberta Posts: 6,050	Even though you might be right, Winamp is changing. The old team is gone, the Winamp client we are so used to will change with the next major release, and the incomplete skins have a limited shelf life in the date base. As for me, I have always turned away skins submitted that updated other skins, exactly as I am promoting now, quite an irony I would say. However, if incomplete skins get purged from the database, they are lost. I'd rather have them updated than lost. That being said, I do want to preserve the original design, and that is why the restrictions on how to update these skins. The product that will be published after the update will be the original skin, unaltered in any way, with the addition of three new bmp's that will be produced in the style of the original work. It would be nice if the authors could all be contacted to let them know their skins require an update, but even though that might be possible on a lot of them, it is not as easy as it used to be, as e-mail addresses are no longer published. Also, with the move to this new design of the website, and accompanying review system, we have also lost the ability to update skins on the original authors skin account, that is why we will have to create a separate account for these updated skins to be published under. On a final note, the original author will have the right to update his own skins, and his update will trump any update someone else might have made for it. Failing that, the original author will also have the right to request the removal of his work from the database. I know a lot of authors don't really want to be bothered with their skins anymore, but don't really like to see them summarily removed neither. This would be a reasonable compromise. Now as for a tool to automatically do this, a tool could not get everything just right. The additional bmp's would still have to be edited by hand to get the desired results. Now you can also help by directing as many original authors as you can to this thread. "We are all faced with a series of great opportunities brilliantly disguised as impossible situations." ~ Charles R. Swindoll

5th March 2005, 19:37	#5
flatmatt Iron Chef (Reviewer) Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Winamp Island Posts: 3,036	I may just have to update my older skins now that they're threatened with eventual removal. flatmatt.com v5.0 \| Echoes \| Meddling Kids v1.52 Space Invaders v1.1 \| Danielle Fishel v1.11

5th March 2005, 20:15	#6
xenosomething Major Dude Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: ? Posts: 1,473	how long do i have to update my incomplete skin? also, if a skin creator says they will add the needed things but doesnt have the time to do it at the moment or just simply needs some more time to finish it, will "public updates" be disallowed on that skin? ....and even though i will complete my skins, i would rather see my skin be completely removed instead of someone else finishing off whats mine. .........?.

5th March 2005, 20:34	#8
xenosomething Major Dude Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: ? Posts: 1,473	alright sounds fine to me. .........?.

6th March 2005, 02:47	#10
xenosomething Major Dude Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: ? Posts: 1,473	just would kinda irk me. kinda like a getting a physical. you know its for a good reason, but still...you know? .........?.

6th March 2005, 04:07	#11
dlinkwit27 has no CT (Forum King) Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 13,232	please tell me you arn't going to get rid of the classics by Steve Moss and others that are "broke" now but still hold places int eh top downlaoded! ::Deviant Me::Last.fm::WhatPulse Stats::Folding @ Home

6th March 2005, 04:30	#12
LuigiHann Forum King Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: 80's Japan Posts: 3,408	I would happily update any and all of Steve Moss's skins, now that I have photoshop. Hopefully nobody's in a hurry, because I won't be doing any skinning this week. Who is the milkman? What is the purpose of the goggles?

6th March 2005, 04:55	#13
tydogg Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Gosh, wherever the heck I want to be from. Posts: 335	But what about you takeover of 1k1winampskins? You thought I was dead, didn't you?

15th March 2005, 01:21	#17
Wildrose-Wally The Albertan Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Sunny Southern Alberta Posts: 6,050	Should be in the original thread, maybe a mod wants to do the "merge" And no, no bugfixing allowed, all we want is the 3 additional files. "We are all faced with a series of great opportunities brilliantly disguised as impossible situations." ~ Charles R. Swindoll

15th March 2005, 02:43	#18
dlinkwit27 has no CT (Forum King) Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 13,232	a) just outa curiosity, did you use any of the bmp i posted earlier? b) I think instead of "winamp library" it should say somethign else. In teh origional, the main window is called "ground control" and the playlist "guidance", etc., so the media library should have something as...spacey I think. Perhaps...idk..."Data Archive" or something like that. ::Deviant Me::Last.fm::WhatPulse Stats::Folding @ Home

15th March 2005, 03:02	#19
LuigiHann Forum King Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: 80's Japan Posts: 3,408	I started to use yours, but then I realized the way I wanted the buttons it would have to not be in a frame the way you had it, so I ended up doing it from scratch. And the only way to get it to say something other than winamp library would be to come up with a cryptogram for it and reorder the alphabet. and then who knows what the AVS or other programs would say. I thought about changing the video window text, but I figured "data relay" was as good as anything, and most people with the video window don't have a minibrowser anymore, so nobody should notice. Who is the milkman? What is the purpose of the goggles?

17th March 2005, 03:18	#25
dimichan Major Dude Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Photoshop Purgatory :p Posts: 898	waves sheepishly hi all... I'm trying to rescue the hard drive that has my original skins on it, it fell down went boom some time ago, actually my whole computer went to the great microchip haven in the sky... but I'll try to get at least my more recent efforts updated and keep everyone posted since I figure some of them aren't something any sane person wants to tackle Wired In Flames Cemetary Gates Eclipsed Fuuko-chan Persephone Melusina

17th March 2005, 08:44	#26
StillWater Forum King Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Nov 1978 Posts: 3,880	Well I'll be! Hey Dimichan! Sow a thought, reap an action; sow an action, reap a habit; sow a habit, reap a character; sow a character, reap a destiny. All my skins: @ winamp.com @ 1K1WS @ Deviantart.com My latest Flash Project: BreathingEarth.net

18th March 2005, 01:47	#27
dlinkwit27 has no CT (Forum King) Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 13,232	luigi rocks! ::Deviant Me::Last.fm::WhatPulse Stats::Folding @ Home

18th March 2005, 14:29	#28
LuigiHann Forum King Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: 80's Japan Posts: 3,408	Thanks Dlink. They left the old staff reviews up, apparently from when Steve Moss added the avs.bmp and stuff to his skins, so several of the reviews say something like "Thanks for updating, Steve" or "Updated by the original author" which I think might confuse the heck out of people, but what do I know... And hey Dimichan, good luck updating your skins too. Who is the milkman? What is the purpose of the goggles?

18th March 2005, 22:52	#29
Wildrose-Wally The Albertan Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Sunny Southern Alberta Posts: 6,050	Update Consumption, Nature and Retro have been cleared of incomplete skins, next will be Transportation. Some skins have been updated, the first one was Mastro Fusion Amp, updated by myself. Luigi updated 6 of Steve Moss' skins, Thanks Luigi. The Staff reviews have been edited to avoid cunfusion. If you are lookin for incomplete skins to update, look in the "Incomplete" category, they will all end up there eventually. "We are all faced with a series of great opportunities brilliantly disguised as impossible situations." ~ Charles R. Swindoll

19th March 2005, 00:47	#32
dlinkwit27 has no CT (Forum King) Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 13,232	I did for some, but some sections were differently sized, so I cheated Did the author of Fossil say he would update it, or should I PM him? ::Deviant Me::Last.fm::WhatPulse Stats::Folding @ Home

19th March 2005, 00:52	#33
Wildrose-Wally The Albertan Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Sunny Southern Alberta Posts: 6,050	I PM'd him the link to this thread 15 minutes ago, we'll see what happens. "We are all faced with a series of great opportunities brilliantly disguised as impossible situations." ~ Charles R. Swindoll

19th March 2005, 00:55	#34
Yathosho Forum King Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: AT-DE Posts: 3,167	hello, just got a pm on this. i'll have a look at what it takes to make my fossil skin support all winamp 5 features. as i didn't skin winamp since 1998, i'm wondering if i have to use some entirely new skinning format or if just have to add new bitmaps. i didn't skin all fossil windows in the past, as the classic skin format has its limits (i.e. gradients in playlist) and i didn't want to spend too much time on learning the new skinning format. so maybe better count on an updated beamp, than on a new fossil.. but that's not a final word. i'm thankful for hints Fossil 2002 III \| visboTVisbot \| NSIS Highlighter \| NSIS Twitter \| NSIS Graphics \| PimpBot \| How to setup AVS?

19th March 2005, 01:01	#35
Wildrose-Wally The Albertan Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Sunny Southern Alberta Posts: 6,050	All it takes is 3 additional bmp's and you're up to date. Grab the files from the default skin here: http://www3.telus.net/wildrosewally/gen.bmp http://www3.telus.net/wildrosewally/genex.bmp http://www3.telus.net/wildrosewally/video.bmp "We are all faced with a series of great opportunities brilliantly disguised as impossible situations." ~ Charles R. Swindoll

19th March 2005, 01:34	#36
LuigiHann Forum King Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: 80's Japan Posts: 3,408	I found the easiest way to make the gen.bmp was to use the old minibrowser, because the borders all match except for the bottom. The hardest part is the genex.bmp, between doing the colors and making the sliders... Who is the milkman? What is the purpose of the goggles?

19th March 2005, 02:48	#38
LuigiHann Forum King Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: 80's Japan Posts: 3,408	You're thinking of numbers.bmp and nums_ex.bmp. Gen and genex are different and both necessary. Look at them and see. Who is the milkman? What is the purpose of the goggles?

19th March 2005, 03:31	#39
dlinkwit27 has no CT (Forum King) Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 13,232	damn. So close, and yet so far ::Deviant Me::Last.fm::WhatPulse Stats::Folding @ Home

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