Guaranteed Buffering (50sec In)

[DJ Whodat]

Stream is up: http://65.26.204.150:8000
Using: SAM Broadcaster and Shoutcast Server
Running @ 96kbps, High Quality, 44.1kHz Stereo with mp3PRO encoder (and various other comboss, read on...)

This stream has been online and running with no problems for literally months now. I've been able to support 5-7 people with my connection just fine.

Recently, I moved some of my hardware into a closet (to de-clutter my office). The hardware (and router settings) have not changed at all.

When I listen to the stream, it connects right away and is smooth, but then it starts to buffer quite fast at 50 seconds into the stream. When I reconnect, it plays smooth again, but then at 50seconds, it buffers again like crazy.

This all happens when I am the only one on the stream. I've tried lowering the bitrate all the way, to like 8kbps, and it doesn't buffer. Then I tried raising it to 80kbps/mono, and then it starts to buffer again at the 1 minute mark.

Set max users aside for a moment, and tell me why the stream can't even play straight for 1 person (me)? Yet, 2hours ago when I had the same config in a different room, it played fine for 7??

[hackerdork]

hwo about you retest your uplaod speed on the internet to see what you can really support. use this site http://www.speakeasy.net/speed pick the site that is far away from your location. Do post that you have 100MB to internet, test it

I see you have ti running at 96kbps right now too.

now consider this UPLOAD / BIT RATE = MAX users that can tune in. if you have ftp, web and other services running that too would limit the bit rate and/or the amount of listeners you can handle. You may have someone else or something else on your network segment that is chewing up your bandwidth.

~ D

[FS-Randy]

Are you using wireless by any chance? Good reason the new location might not perform like the old...

[DJ Whodat]

...Do post that you have 100MB to internet, test it

I see you have ti running at 96kbps right now too.

now consider this UPLOAD / BIT RATE = MAX users that can tune in. if you have ftp, web and other services running that too would limit the bit rate and/or the amount of listeners you can handle. You may have someone else or something else on your network segment that is chewing up your bandwidth.

~ D [/B]

I did test it; I always test it. I can support 4-5 users on a typical day. My max was 8.

With this being said, I should be able to support 1 user (me). Why would it be buffering?

Also, no, it's not wireless.

[DJ Whodat]

I also connected internally, and it buffers like crazy too!

[hackerdork]

disconnect all your network hardware, turn off the power to your network switch/router, connect only your PC and the streaming server see if it still buffers.

I doubt your problem is a shoutcast problem , but a topology problem. may have looped your network , crashed, etc etc...

~ D

[DJ Whodat]

Originally posted by hackerdork
disconnect all your network hardware, turn off the power to your network switch/router, connect only your PC and the streaming server see if it still buffers.

I doubt your problem is a shoutcast problem , but a topology problem. may have looped your network , crashed, etc etc...

~ D

Yes, just got done doing this. I have two computers. One is for running the station (which sits in the closet), and the other is for work.

Everything was turned off, unplugged. I let it sit for 10 minutes. Plugged back in, and still buffering at 50 seconds in.

[hackerdork]

are you using your internet connection or LAN? with out without a router??? etc

frankly it sounds like a crappy network, or really slow computer that is encoding the stream. no offence, just more possibilitities.

Have you rebooted the server as well?

~ D

[DJ Whodat]

are you using your internet connection or LAN? with out without a router???

I've tried connecting through my LAN to listen and through the Internet and both give the same results. I do have a router, it's a Vonage Linksys router; been using it for over a year now.

frankly it sounds like a crappy network, or really slow computer that is encoding the stream. no offence, just more possibilitities.

Network hasn't changed in over a year; it's worked flawlessly prior to today. The computer is a 1.35Ghz with 1GB ram - definately not slow. Again, it's been fine, prior to today.

Have you rebooted the server as well?

Yes, I've rebooted it several times.

[DJ Whodat]

Any further help with this would be appreciated...

[djSpinnerCee]

Try a different player -- and check the settings of the player you're using -- there are also settings on the PC [some are in the CMOS, and some are Windows settings] running the player that may be causing the re-buffering [buffering is always done].

PCs with insufficient RAM will also exhibit the issues you describe -- Windows in particular becomes a dead dog once the commit charge [TASKMAN] is greater than the amount of physical memory in the PC. The Hard Disk [swapfile] is no substitute for RAM.

[hackerdork]

I know what his response will be.. nothing changed blah blah.. well moving it you screwed something up. its and it not the software ....

[DJ Whodat]

Originally posted by hackerdork
I know what his response will be.. nothing changed blah blah.. well moving it you screwed something up. its and it not the software ....

Thanks for the vote of confidence!

Also, I never said it was the software. Something obviously changed, because now it doesn't work like it did before. I'm just asking for a little help running through things because I can't figure it out myself.

You don't have to be a friggen jerk about it.

[Nick@ss]

make sure you havent turned any crossfaders on also..

[hackerdork]

well I am a fricken jerk. oh well..

look moving a few pcs around a network should'nt cause this unless you have network problems that you were not aware of. Like nick@ss said, avoid using a cross fader or other plug-in (stacking plugins), but you did say it worked fine until you moved the hardware around.

Are you using off the shelf retail network hardware or enterprise level network hardware ? do you know what a network loop is (having a switch connect to another switch that connects back to the original switch). Take a look at your link and transmits lights on your network switches and see if you have snd/rev blinking at a constant rate or just ever so often. A constant or lit solid light is a good indication of a loop.

Here's something to test as well, on the pc that runs shoutcat and winamp, open a 2nd copy of winamp (you will need to change the preference in winamp to allow this), then tune into the stream but point to 127.0.0.1 if it buffers from that address, well it the server itself, no buffering its the network.

[/jerk]

~ D

[DJ Whodat]

I'm not using Winamp. I'm using the SAM Broadcaster, professional software for radio stations (I'm sure you've heard of it). I'm trying to rule out any software problems on their end at their forums.

I do not have a loop; since I only have one router. The setup I have is quite simple; two computers, one router. I've double checked the connections many times. Lights only flash when data is being sent.

Also, I've changed the cable running from the server to the router several times, starting with the original cable (the one that was connected when it was in my office originally), changing to a premade off the shelf cable, and even making my own cable. All of which produce the same results.

I've even changed which port the server was connected to on the router, and this doesn't help either. And I've tested my upload speed and it's anywhere from 350-400kbps. More than enough to support at least one person for testing purposes.

[djSpinnerCee]

Examine the CPU util on the source box [TASKMAN again is your friend] -- if it's at or near 100%, you'll have to find out the app that's degrading the performance.

I keep revisiting the source box as the culprit because if connecting over the LAN or locally (using 127.0.0.1 from the same box) still exhibits the same issue, the internet bandwidth and the WAN router/NAT is not even in the picture.

[DJ Whodat]

djSpinnerCee - That was one of the first things that I did, check the taskman. Nothing is running except for the SAM Broadcaster and shoutCAST server; machine runs @ 20%

[hackerdork]

have you connected back to 127.0.0.1 to make sure its not ther !@$@!#$#@$ router or network causing the buffering.

if it still buffers connected to localhost you know its the PC?server running SAM

[DJ Whodat]

YES!

[hackerdork]

I mean connect using winamp to listen, does it buffer? then is that damn PC. If it doesnt buffer, punch in the TCP/IP address of the server, does it buffer its the damn network driver. No buffering from localhost and its own ip address means your network hardware is the culprit.

FRUSTED!!!! I KNOW...

~ D

[SLR]

Not sure if you actually answer FS-Randy's original question.

Are you running on a wireless network by any chance ?

We've found wireless connections to be extremely variable in their quality when it comes to streaming. The signal needs to be rock solid in strength.

If you are using a wireless connection - it's possible that the move of the PC has impacted on the signal quality / strength.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[jammy3]

I doubt that this has changed by doing what you've described, but I've found in general with network apps, NEVER set your NIC for "autodetect", rather confirm what link speed you have (i.e. 100/full) and set it to that.

On another note, I've been having the buffering issues, but figured already that it was my network config. I was just looking for a confirmation here. I have two wireless routers that 'bridge' the connection and of course, my 'server' is on the wrong end....

My question is, if wireless is such a problem, even if I move it to the "wired" side of the network, will wireless clients still have problems with buffering?

TIA.

[DJ Whodat]

Again, my routers are not wireless.

I've even torn down the system itself, switched around cards (NIC, graphic, and sound) cleaned terms with alcohol and still the same thing.

Also, I've connected with localhost and it buffers even then. So this means it's my streaming software then, right?

[fc*uk]

yes, indeed it does.

[hackerdork]

does it buffer if you use the encoder and not the soundcard (sam3 source) or directsound (winamp source)

~ D

[djSpinnerCee]

Wireless has higher "latency" -- that means that regardless of its "rate", there are gaps and pauses (sometimes caused by interference), unlike a hard wired Ethernet cable.

If you are trying to get consistent speed across a wireless 802.11 b/g "bridge", you're likely to be frustrated.

One problem is that you're not approaching the diagnosis in a systematic way -- you must work from the inside out, not the outside in -- that is to say that if this issue occurs when you use 127.0.0.1 to listen from the DNAS box, and still get only 256kbytes or re-buffering, nothing you do anywhere else will fix that issue, and it means the problem is most likely in the player and DNAS PC itself, and not even the Ethernet config of the DNAS box.

I've seen CMOS config items like DMA and Overclocking type "mods" totally mess up PC timing such that listening to a 32kbps stream (local or intnernet) is impossible.

If you have XP, TASKMAN can show you Ethernet interface traffic both inbound and outbound [PerfMon: Performance Monitor can show you much more on ALL WinX] -- you'd be looking for the data rate to be very inconsistent -- since you don't know what "normal" would look like, you may want to try to transfer files between PCs over the LAN -- If you have a transfer problem, you may not get the speed you expect (100Mbps Ethernet?). It is incredibly difficult to determine why unless you eliminate variables -- ie: Disk performance cannot effect the DNAS [but too-little RAM will bring disk performance into it], but it can certainly effect the source [DSP] which must read files from disk in time to be encoded.

In general, the source and DNAS should not be seperated by a wireless link -- likewise, your listeners should not have to find your DNAS across a wireless link. Wireless [WiFi] does not work like Cat5 Ethernet, even though it tries to "act" like it.

[DJ Whodat]

Originally posted by hackerdork
does it buffer if you use the encoder and not the soundcard (sam3 source) or directsound (winamp source)

~ D

I'm not sure what you mean by this...? Can you explain further?

[hackerdork]

ok if you use SAM3 dj or broadcaster you can map to the soundcard then the DSP (encoder), or directly to the encoder which what you must do on systems without a soundcard.

in winamp if you are going to live DJ you have to select SOUNDCARD as the input inside the winampdsp, but if you select winamp it should use directsound drivers.

directsound is suppose to manage the sound system much better that wave mapper even did and support full duplex and sharing of soundcard hardware.

You can eliminate problems with your sound card hardware by using the encoder pathway either in SAM3 or winamp DSP (direct sound). If you buffer like mad on localhost its probally a software and driver conflict if you dont, then setup SAM3 or winamp to use soundcard mode which would point to the soundcard hardware or drivers for the soundcard.

I have had studdering sound on soundblaster cards using their drivers, but no issues when using microsofts drivers..

Take care..

~d

[DJ Whodat]

In SAM, in the Audio Settings area, I have an air output settings selection box. I can choose:

Silent Output
DirectSound Output
Kernel Streaming Output

Until now I've been using the DirectSound Output; which it then allows me to also select my Output Device. I switched over to Kernel Streaming and that just sucked the machine to hell. I then selected the Silent Output option and it does not seem to be studdering anymore. Been listening for over 4 minutes now and still playing smooth.

I still don't know why it was working for so long with the other settings, and then it just decided to not work on me. Oh well, I'm glad this is figured out. And thank you hackerdork (and everyone else) for keeping at it for me.

You also answered a secondary question of mine too - I wondered if this could be run on a server without a soundcard. Which is good because eventually I will be doing this; nice to know it'll work.

Thanks again!

[hackerdork]

silent mode wont use the soundcard hardware, also in the audio pipeline, voice fx = encoder or mixer, I made everything go through the encoder and it worked without a soundcard. no voice FX of course...

Cheers

[Beck38]

Originally posted by DJ Whodat
I've tried connecting through my LAN to listen and through the Internet and both give the same results. I do have a router, it's a Vonage Linksys router; been using it for over a year now.

I have the same problem, maybe in spades; what caught my eye is I have the same router box (Vonage Linksys/Cisco) on my broadcasting PC (the only part of my network boing through that). It isn't the line (completely different dsl than the machines I try and listen on), and I can see the packets going ont, with maybe a 1-2 sec. delay.

The Winamp's used to do the listening go into buffering mode about every 5 seconds or so, just about like clockwork.

I had this system up and operating several months ago, on the same machines, same software, simply moved some of the links around to get the broadcasting machine onto it's own link, ect. I do have some settings to give a try on the linksys, as before I had it on an SMC firewall (no probs) before. I'll have to try a few ideas.

But it looks like a system/winamp software problem; why it's happening now may be due to a fault in the software: I've seen such problems on other systems (peer) where the entire network fell down due to some s/w error that made the system vuneralble to major problems.

[SLR]

Ok - here's an idea. You state that you are experiencing the problem over your network even when you tune in via localhost. That's weird......


Just a complete off-tangent. Is your router cabling running close by to an electrical source of interference etc ? Have you tried moving the computer again and seeing whether you still experience the same problems.....

[Beck38]

Originally posted by SLR
Ok - here's an idea. You state that you are experiencing the problem over your network even when you tune in via localhost. That's weird......


Just a complete off-tangent. Is your router cabling running close by to an electrical source of interference etc ? Have you tried moving the computer again and seeing whether you still experience the same problems.....

My Computers haven't been moved; The cableing only very slightly, all is shelded CAT6. Tried several different machines as recievers, the 'effect' happens on all of them. When first linked up, there is no buffering, for between 1-3 minutes or so, but it looks like the first small stream delay kickes it off, and then it never goes away. I've got a couple more tests to try out, will update this post in ~6 hrs.

Quick update: I thought to try and install the newest Winamp, what a disaster that is! Random lock-ups of mouse and keyboard occur, I had to take it off that machine and hope things return to 'normal'.

[hackerdork]

the person that started this thread had sucess. buffering is not a delay. the delay will be there at lower bit rates. when our live show is going its 30 seconds to 2 minutes of daly which is normal.

if you guys have other issues, start a new thread dj wh.. fixed his issue with the encoder/soundcard being used with SAM3.

buffering = winamp or other shows buffering and audio is skipping to chopping. buffering does not mean a delay from live to listerns.

[Beck38]

DELAY is distinctly different from BUFFERING. I gave up on this system and moved to another platform that doesn't have this problem.