You thought that foreign car was better built. Think again.

[MegaRock]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100127/..._toyota_recall

WASHINGTON – Toyota suspended U.S. sales of some of its most popular vehicles — including the best-selling car in America, the Camry — to fix sticking gas pedals that could make the cars accelerate without warning.

In another blow to the world's No. 1 automaker, Toyota Motor Corp. said Tuesday it would halt some production at six assembly plants beginning the week of Feb. 1 "to assess and coordinate activities."

The company said it would stop selling eight models of cars and trucks, a significant portion of its fleet. The suspension comes after a recall of the same models last week involving 2.3 million vehicles.

Toyota has said it was unaware of any accidents or injuries due to the pedal problems associated with the recall, but could not rule them out for sure.

"This action is necessary until a remedy is finalized," said Bob Carter, Toyota's group vice president and general manager.

The Japanese automaker said the sales suspension includes the following models: the 2009-2010 RAV4, the 2009-2010 Corolla, the 2007-2010 Camry, the 2009-2010 Matrix, the 2005-2010 Avalon, the 2010 Highlander, the 2007-2010 Tundra and the 2008-2010 Sequoia.

Some dealers suggested taking vehicles to dealerships for inspections if people have safety concerns.

Aaron Bragman, an auto analyst for the consulting firm IHS Global Insight in Troy, Mich., said Toyota typically sells about 65,000 Camrys and Corollas a month, and the frozen sales could strike at the company's bottom line and reputation for quality.

"That's huge if they can't sell these and they don't have a fix identified. They need to go and get a solution to this fast," Bragman said.

Toyota sold more than 34,000 Camrys in December, making the midsize sedan America's best-selling car. It commands 3.4 percent of the U.S. market and sales rose 38 percent from a year earlier. Sales of the Corolla and Matrix, a small sedan and a hatchback, totaled 34,220 last month, making up 3.3 percent of the market and sales up nearly 55 percent from December of 2008.

Toyota spokesman Mike Michels said production would be suspended on the affected vehicle lines this week and it was unclear exactly when it would resume. In an e-mail to employees, company officials said, "we don't know yet how long this pause will last but we will make every effort to resume production soon."

Michels said engineers were trying to develop a fix as quickly as possible but he did not have a firm timeline on when the vehicle sales could resume.

Toyota shares were down 2.3 percent in early Tokyo trading at 3,780 yen.

The automaker said the move would affect plants in Princeton, Ind., Lafayette, Ind., Georgetown, Ky., San Antonio, Texas, and Cambridge, Ontario, and Woodstock, Ontario, in Canada.

Toyota spokesman Mike Goss said most workers were expected to be at their jobs during the assembly line shutdown. Workers will receive additional training or work on improvements to their assembly processes, but can also take vacation or unpaid leave, he said.

About 300 workers who build V8 engines at a Toyota plant in Huntsville, Ala., will be affected, said Stephanie Deemer, a spokeswoman for the plant. Goss said the shutdowns will also affect engine plants in Georgetown, Ky., and Buffalo, W.Va.

Toyota said no other North American Toyota facility would be affected by the decision.

Toyota dealers said they were concerned the move would hamper sales and were hopeful parts to fix the problem could be distributed quickly.

"They're going the extra mile to reassure people that they really care about the customers," said Earl Stewart, owner of a Toyota dealership in North Palm Beach, Fla. "It is something that's going to be at least a short-term hardship on the dealers, and especially on Toyota."

The auto company said the sales suspension wouldn't affect Lexus or Scion vehicles. Toyota said the Prius, Tacoma, Sienna, Venza, Solara, Yaris, 4Runner, FJ Cruiser, Land Cruiser and select Camry models, including all Camry hybrids, would remain for sale.

The announcement follows a larger recall months earlier of 4.2 million vehicles because of problems with gas pedals becoming trapped under floor mats, causing sudden acceleration. That problem was the cause of several crashes, including some fatalities.

About 1.7 million vehicles fall under both recalls.

Owners with questions can call the Toyota Customer Experience Center at (800) 331-4331.

[rockouthippie]

Americans are such pussies. Complaining about a little thing like their Toyota uncontrollably accelerating to 100 miles an hour. This sounds like a feature to me, a little excitement in your day. Now that's one thing you can say is safe about an American compact car. You'd have a half hour to worry about hitting 100 mph if you were heading down a steep hill with a tail wind.

Luckily the floor mat issue might not be the real issue. Some people think the computer is the problem, so it's possible that the Toyota could wad itself in a mass of twisted metal even with the retrofit. It's in the great tradition of Hari Kari and the inimitable Kamikaze.

I say turn the key and yell BONZAI! To be sure, it's probably the only way you could be sure you die with medical insurance. Even with the floor mat fixed, the cars won't shut off for two fun filled seconds when you hit the kill switch and the transmission makes it impossible to find neutral in an emergency. YEEHAW!

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2...at-recall.html

[Omega X]

Whoa Megarock is back.

[MegaRock]

Originally posted by rockouthippie
Americans are such pussies. Complaining about a little thing like their Toyota uncontrollably accelerating to 100 miles an hour.

I know but have you ever tried this excuse with a cop?

"Seriously officer, the accelerator pedal just mashed itself to the floor. I really didn't want to drive over the posted speed limit. Oh, and that's not an empty bottle of whiskey in the back floor board.".

First they'd beat you, then they'd Rodney King your ass down the highway with your Toyota, then they'd give you a ticket and lock you up.

While we're on this subject what ever happened to Firestone?

Whoa Megarock is back.

And there will be hell to pay!

[rockouthippie]

I made a Texas cop laugh so hard he let me go:

"They don't have blue lights on police cars back home. I thought you were an airplane trying to land on the road and I was trying to get the hell out of the way."

This was "back in the day". How you get a Fury III cop car to go 180 remains a mystery.

[gaekwad2]

Yeah, blast those Japs for issuing a recall before there's even been a series of accidents!

Couldn't they just sit on it and hope nothing happens like, hmm, some other companies did in the past?

[rockouthippie]

I guess a cop got ran over because of this defect. I think in the spirit of political correctness, to save Toyota and to show solidarity that these recall models should be the official vehicles of the US Congress. It is fitting that they should drive a Yo off a cliff on the way to driving the country off a cliff.

It just goes along with my general principle that when things get to be worthless, you should recycle.

[gaekwad2]

I know you love your straw men, but really, making the state use money it doesn't have to pay for corporate mismanagement doesn't have that much to do with pc (more with the fact that if you let the free market do what it wants, its invisible hand will rape you without lube).

[rockouthippie]

The problem is not the free market. The problem is criminals both corporate and political in a free market. I'm sure the Democrats have stocked up on lube, but that's just so they can give you a longer, harder ride.

[swingdjted]

Originally posted by gaekwad2
Yeah, blast those Japs for issuing a recall before there's even been a series of accidents!

Couldn't they just sit on it and hope nothing happens like, hmm, some other companies did in the past?

That's the point I was about to make, you beat me to it. Toyota is proactive more often than reactive, whereas other companies tend to be the opposite.

The floor mat issue was bullshit. 19 people died over floor mats that were not only third party, but improperly installed without the security hooks being used, despite the manual's instruction to use them. I had a floor mat make an '82 Chevy pickup take off on me when I was driving my bud to do some farmhand work (it was his dad's truck). I didn't tell my passenger to "pray" like the cop did to his family in his Lexus followed by speeding to his and his family's death, I tossed it in neutral, yanked out the mat, and put it back to drive and went on with my day. I didn't go crying to NHTSA, I simply had a rather lame and eventless bar story to tell. I could have just as easily turned off the engine and had enough power-brake pressure to stop, and even if not, I would have been strong enough without the power brakes given a little more room. It was a problem that has existed since the invention of floor mats, and it's a good Darwin Award test. If you can't figure out how to fix it and die instead, maybe you shouldn't be driving or passing on your inability to think and handle an extremely elementary problem to your offspring. If the floor mats had been properly secured using the provided hooks (a fix implemented more than a decade before the problem came to press), it would have been impossible for those problems to happen.

I fail to see the connection between Toyota sales and liberals. I am immersed in conservatism where I live in northwestern Iowa, and yet Toyota sales are huge here. On my 57 mile per day work commute, I see more Toyotas than any other brand of vehicle, and most have some sort of conservative-based bumper sticker, whether it be an NRA member seal, an anti-abortion label, or campaign tag.

The bottom line though is that Toyota owners, both new and repeat buyers, are very happy with the products they have bought, and many non-Toyota owners are preparing to buy them regardless of this. They appreciate the fact that Toyota is willing to ensure their cars are fixed either before purchased or as soon as possible with a voluntary recall rather than being forced to react. It's not something that is causing widespread second-guessing the quality of the brand they have grown to trust. It is merely an exploitation of something that would have gone mostly unnoticed had it happened when Toyota wasn't stomping all over the competition.

I'd be willing to bet quite a large sum of assets that this won't significantly harm Toyota sales or customer satisfaction, at least in terms of comparison with other auto manufacturers.

[rockouthippie]

I tossed it in neutral, yanked out the mat, and put it back to drive and went on with my day.

That's probably what has happened most of the time in the sudden acceleration problems under recall repair. But under no circumstances should a car just take off and run over a cop. It's just bad form.

What if you were on a cliff? Yeah. A guy could survive to check his shorts or end up parking on a cop. Was it me or you? Or was it grandma toddling the Corolla down to the Ihop when the car took off.... with a transmission that is nearly impossible to get into neutral in a panic.... and a kill switch that is delayed a couple seconds before it turns off....

Then there are allegations that Toyota has tried to conceal these safety issues. This isn't the only issue. There are also large scale recalls of Corolla and Prius for other issues. The number of cars Yo has to recall is catastrophic. It will probably interfere with production of new cars.

[swingdjted]

The transmission selector is indeed a bitch to get used to at first; I haven't really researched why they made it that way (non-linear gear selecting), but after about a week to a month, it's second nature.

It's important to note though, that this is a moot point, because neutral is still straight up, just like it was back when things were all linear, just like it always has been since the invention of an automatic transmission selector, whether on the tree or on the floor. That is something that never changed, and probably will never change - neutral has always been and always will be one click up from the highest drive gear.

The cutoff switch is only applicable on a few models with a start button (instead of the usual turn-key), where you have to hold it in for 2 seconds to kill, a feature limited to only a couple models.

The '82 chevy had a 6.2L diesel in it (custom delux trim), nicknamed by the family "old blue". Despite having really good power, as you suggested, it didn't have a ton of acceleration, but still, even if it did, it wouldn't have been a big deal. I don't think I got any use of brakes when it happened - trying to is what made me realize it was a mat problem, so I just pulled it out and tossed it on my bud's lap (no extended cab for tossing behind seat).

Also, late model Toyota (or any brand) car brakes, complete with ABS, electronic brakeforce distribution, and brake-assist, combined with the fact that it's a lighter vehicle equipped with a new McPherson suspension, and many other features will stop much, much, much, much, much, (etc.) sooner than an any brand of '82 pickup, unless there were some sort of MAJOR brake malfunction on the same day when the '82 pickup had it's shortest stopping distance.

[MegaRock]

[swingdjted]

Anyone can find pictures of wrecked cars. That particular one is a model I can prove to be at least ten years old because of the tail light structure. That model ran from 1997-1999; a.k.a. model years that were NOT affected by this thread's reported issue. Furthermore, I can prove that it did not wreck into the tree; the tree wrecked into it ~ notice that the tree sits lower on the car than the front end, which is not damaged. Looks to me like storm damage, since there is no evidence to suggest that the car was moving at all when it happened and plenty of evidence to the contrary.

In other words, this proves nothing about Toyota reliability; it only proves that some poor schmuck had an unlucky parking place. This is not a problem specific to Toyota, and like the floor mats issue, is a problem that's been around since the early '80s and before, just like my bud's dad's truck...



..try again.

[edit] corrected my post to include an important "NOT"[/edit]

[swingdjted]

too late to amend my previous post

Originally posted by rockouthippie
Or was it grandma toddling the Corolla down to the Ihop when the car took off.... with a transmission that is nearly impossible to get into neutral in a panic.... and a kill switch that is delayed a couple seconds before it turns off...

Corollas have standard turn-key ignition and bump-up to neutral, just like any other average every-day car.

Here's the selector from a Corolla that a lot of people like to bitch about (and I'll admit I used to hate having this system in my truck when I first bought it too, until I got used to it; now I use it without even noticing):



Despite this, getting to N from D is still the same as it was in the past, just a bump-up; no sideways motion involved.

I need to do some more research as to why they switched from just straight up and down to the more jagged pattern. My guess is that it eliminates the need for a button that used to be required to prevent accidentally bumping the selector into an unwanted position (button use is required to go to a slower gear or to reverse or into/out of park, but not required to go to a faster gear or to neutral; on "tree" selectors, pulling it toward you was required in place of the button). There might be other reasons too, but that's all I can think of at the moment, and I'm having trouble finding information online about it.

[rockouthippie]

This probably wouldn't have been as much of a problem for Toyota if a cop hadn't gotten ran over. In some stuff I read about this, Toyota has had reports of uncontrolled acceleration problems since 2003. It wasn't a lot of cars, but it was enough for State Farm to notice and adjust rates a little.

Then a cop got ran over..

[swingdjted]

The way I heard it, and maybe it was a separate occasion and both incidents happened, but I had read that a cop had himself and 4 separate family members in a Lexus when his floor mat somehow rode up over the pedals, so he called 911 (the audio from the call is still floating around on the internet), and the dispatcher didn't know what to say (didn't know what the problem exactly was), so he was last heard telling his family to pray, followed by the car crossing an intersection, leaving the road, and killing all on board at a speed over 120 (according to his claim on the call). The wreck was found to have the aftermarket, unhooked mat up over the pedals, and there were no braking-related skid marks leading to the car's final resting place.

In that particular situation, the car (a pretty nice Lexus) was likely (I'm guessing) equipped with the 2 second kill switch, which I could agree might be something people don't know how to use (read the damn manual if you're going to spend a shitload of money on a vehicle!), but he could have gone to neutral, noticed the problem with the mats and fixed it (wouldn't it be obvious with your foot feel when looking for the brake?), tried using the hand brake (although this could lead to fish-tailing, but still stop the car before getting to a fatal crash speed), or just hitting the area with the brake pedal despite the mat being there, and that would at least get the car to a more controllable state, even if the gas was also being depressed (power brakes are stronger than the engine's ability to accelerate). It's sad what happened in either the case you're referring to or the one I am referring to, but I'd be willing to bet that most people know better than to just call 911 and tell their family to pray. Those two things are fine, but most religions tell people that the deity helps those who help themselves.

Statistically speaking, 19 people got killed on the floor mat issue, and less got killed on the other issue. Toyota could have just paid off lawsuits and saved money, but instead had the decency to voluntarily recall the vehicles, and on the second issue, mostly before the vehicles even got into consumer hands. Far more people have been killed in other auto manufacturer defects such as pre-tensioner fires (the thing that tightens seat belts in a wreck), and no one even knew about it - never made the news. It might be because of the cop thing you said, as cops tend to get loads of attention when something happens to them, and it's true in a lot of cases that a lot of non-cops get the short end of the stick when something happens to them. Personally I think it has a lot to do with Toyota sales passing Ford/GM/Chrysler, motivating their supporters to publicize everything wrong on Toyotas. I really don't think this would get so much press otherwise.

[rockouthippie]

power brakes are stronger than the engine's ability to accelerate

I really doubt it. Maybe if you were at a dead stop with your foot jammed on the brake. Even then, I think the antilock would let you slip. I think when you started slipping, you'd start melting. 200+ horsepower against brakes? Hmmm... Your tranny would downshift...

I never tried such an experiment, but I know from drag racing that the brakes will not hold a car at full throttle while power braking. Unless the car is a total dog.

I've had some recalls on Fords. Usually something to do with one thing or another catching fire. The last one was a 1999 Crown Vicky I had. The recall models had cruise control modules that would catch fire. No injuries with that until one caught fire in a garage, caught the house on fire and killed the residents. My brother had a 2000 Expedition which had a fog lamp relay catch fire in the driveway. Burnt the shit out of the truck. Recalled later. It would have been very messy if it happened in the garage.

I think the problem with Toyota isn't consumer confidence. Your truck doesn't scare you. It's millions of recalls to pay for with the dwindling sales in a disaster of an economy. It's gotta hurt.

You could point to the biggest disaster of recent years where 2000 model year Ford Explorers killed 250 people because of defective Firestone tires. Could we be picking on Toyota? Yeah ok...

I haven't thought about this for years, but I nearly bit the dust in a Jeep CJ-5 that rolled due to leaf spring defect. Luckily I had added a roll bar. I walked away, but I wouldn't have without the roll bar. 50 mph. Clear day. Nice road. BAM! UPSIDE DOWN. My old neighbor in an early Hyundai lost all brakes when he got the new Hyundai home. The cotter pin on the brake pedal snapped.... No brakes... Right into the parked cars in the parking lot. WHAM! Luckily he was only going about 15. You could see where no brakes might have been more dire. I lost the axle clip on a 65 C10 and watched the right wheel unscrew while I coasted to a stop no brakes.... steering to keep the axle in the housing. When the axle slid out, it spit the slave cylinder and dumped the brake fluid... shit oh dear! This was one of the Chevy Truck models where minimal side impact would cause the gas tank to blow up like the famous Pinto. I had the shaft drive unit on an 83 XS 1100 Yamaha explode losing the rear tire. Luckily at 20 mph. I will admit to abusing the bike but I didn't think it should have broke the axle, tossed the rear tire and left me riding on the frame.

So. Cars can kill ya I guess...

I was talking to another daddy age neighbor about a 71 Mustang he started as a father-son project. Almost done and a black beauty....

"It has no crumple zones! It has drum brakes! It's dashboard has nothing but sharp things to impale you in a collision. It's steering wheel is steel. It has lap belts. It handles for shit. It stops for shit. How in the hell can I tell the kid I don't want him to drive it?"

The one in a million self launching Toyota doesn't seem very threatening compared to what I learned to drive on.

[swingdjted]

Both of my vehicles (Camry, Tacoma) have 200+ hp (even at the wheel) and brakes that will stop them even if you floor it and allow the transmission to downshift (and you're right, it does). I never tried it on the Tundra when I had it, but I'm guessing it would be fine too (but again, that's a guess). ABS won't kick in unless the wheels lock. It might make for a good youtube experiment. I live in a place loaded with empty roads that have flat fields on either side to minimize danger. The only time I think the engine might have the brakes beat is if I go to 4-low-low-1 (meaning 4 wheel drive low on the transfer case, low range on the secondary gear converter, and first gear out of that set of 5, where the top speed literally isn't enough to lift the speedometer needle). Then I might have enough guts to either beat the brakes or more likely break a drive-shaft or axle (what the hell are those gears for anyway? Maybe pulling a stop sign out of concrete or something?).

The problem with common drag racing is that people make extreme upgrades to the engines/drive-trains, while never doing much to upgrade the brakes the way they would on other racing style vehicles. They often take designs that have changed little since the muscle car days, when you could easily find a engine/brake combination that wasn't matched. Your quote about the rustang (MnV is going to kick my ass for using that term) is a perfect example. Most powerbraking doesn't involve full braking anyway - I never pushed real hard when doing it, just enough to lock up the front.

I have to admit, I am a little lucky and confident because my Camry is not an affected model year, and the Tacomas were never affected by any of this. The Ford "Exploder" deal was really sad, because it's easy to feel sympathy for them when being hurt by a mostly separate company (Firestone). On the other hand, it was noted that vehicles should stay upright even when any tire blows, based on their suspensions and centers of gravity. Having objects to "trip" a vehicle made this a nightmare for early suburb-craze SUVs.

As far as the CJ5, well... I don't care whether you had a known issue or not, if it didn't tip when it did, it would have tipped on the next curve anyway. It's quite a coincidence you bring this up; I just saw one on it's side in the snow last week! It's ragtop was all ripped up and it's spare tire hardware had broken off (looked like a bad aftermarket mount). I'm surprised that having rollbars wasn't stock - I guess I never researched them. Every one I've seen had massive pipes on top. On the C10, based on the way you describe it, careful e-brake work could have helped make it a little less scary. And the Hyundai... I somehow get stuck with them every damn time when renting on vacation. It doesn't take a Toyota fanboy to feel unsafe after a mile or two driving them if you're used to just about anything else. They all felt sub-par in almost every aspect of driving, handling, controls, etc. e.g. steering wheel play, uneven braking causing the car to shift to one side if you hit the brakes only slightly harder than normal, engine/tranny thumping that felt like loose motor mounts, etc., and they were all new cars!

Back on Toyota, if there is any good to this, it's probably better that it happened to them rather than any other manufacturer, because they're likely the most capable of handling it. When the dust settles and people look at the overall impact, I don't think it'll be as bad as it sounds now. Sure, I might pay a hair more to compensate if I buy another Toyota (when my little brake experiment goes wrong), but really I think the company will keep their reputation and competitive sales going strong without much interruption or legal action.

[rockouthippie]

What is also a little scary about stuff like this. I guess that recall that got my Crown Vicky was the largest in auto history. 12 million Fords that could catch fire from a faulty cruise control box. 5 million of them were never repaired.

My impression of a 2008 Hyundai (some kind of high end turbo sport model) was owned by a gal I was dating. It seemed like a reasonable enough car. Fast as greased shit. I think you'd find Hyundai has done a pretty good job on image and the cars. They have the best warranty around now. In the old days you couldn't even get your bank to loan you money to buy one.

I did get a 2009 Mustang as a rental car a while ago. It's a Mustang! Just like vintage ones it rattled, had wobbly handling and wouldn't stop for shit. Hmmm. I'll take the Hyundai!

I think Hyundai is just about at the point where it has to live down it's early auto failures without anything being obviously substandard about their cars.

[swingdjted]

The moment of truth is upon us. Video link below. Now buy me a new transmission, because after this, it'll likely break soon.

Pickup:

236hp engine (4.0L 4-cam 24V V-6 with VVT-i)
207 on the dyno (tire horsepower), which is a very impressive ratio compared to other 4x4's which have more significant loss.
0-60 mph in about 7 seconds flat
60-0 throttle wide open, brake firmly depressed, a little under 10 seconds (then speedometer jumped back up to 10 for a second when I let off the pedals - must have let off the brake a tad earlier than the gas).



Car:

268hp engine (3.5L 4-cam 24V V-6 with VVT-i)
I never had anyone do a dyno for me, but still likely well over 200 to the tires
0-60 mph in about 7.2 seconds (I expected it to be much lower than the truck, wtf? Not warmed up yet maybe?)
60-0 throttle wide open, brake firmly depressed, 9.8 seconds



I'm still upset about the poor acceleration on the car. It's below freezing here, and I did the test only about a minute after starting it cold, whereas with the truck, it had been driven for at least 20 minutes prior to the test. I usually get between 6 flat and 6.2. Looks like the 0-20 and 50-60 parts of it were lackluster on the video. Generally I don't have that much difference between the powerband and the less strong parts of the tach.

Getting down to 10mph was relatively easy even at full throttle. After that I had some real shaking, but was still able to stop. It only took at most around 4 seconds to get the speed down to 10 or so, even with the throttle wide open. It takes more than half that to do the same without using the throttle, so the difference doesn't seem as significant as most people would have you believe. The steering was not affected, but holding the camera still was kinda tough at the slower bumpy speeds.

Vid won't be up long, post when you see, if not I'll take it down after a few views anyway (don't want too many people seeing it for various reasons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huveV_P5mIg

Also, far more cops die from the gas tank placement on the crown vic than all people dying in throttle and floor mat related wrecks in Toyotas. I once saw a documentary on that where they blew up a crown vic police interceptor on purpose just by rear-ending it, and yet it gets little or no attention, and no corrective action by Ford or NHTSA, further showing how much this is just a result of jealous non-Toyota supporters.

[rockouthippie]

So.... hmmmm.... How does this floor mat sticking thing work? It doesn't look like you lost control of the car from the full throttle "failure". Probably a pretty lousy braking distance, but you didn't go rocketing off to 120 mph. What's your thinking? Do you see a way for these cars to take off unless someone was just totally stupid?

Can you buy the floor mat failure as an excuse for accidents? It didn't look to me like you would have had any trouble. It really didn't sound like you hurt the vehicles either. A little compression knocking. It would have just killed if you went further I think.

So WTF?

p.s. you can take the video down now so your wife doesn't see it

[swingdjted]

Yeah, it would have been very difficult to test distance rather than seconds, due to the fact that I would have to be very accurate at hitting the brake at a landmark (hard for a human to do with precision), then get out and measure what that would be vs braking without the gas pedal floored.

I just didn't want the video up for long due to the fact that I passed the speed limit (55) for a short time, and there's a chance, although slim, that it could cause me some grief if the right people saw it (people from work, police, students (who don't know I even have a youtube account at this point), but still. They could say I was speeding or worse say I was guilty of "wreckless endangerment" if they wanted to be assholes. Renee saw the process of putting it together. She's used to that kind of stuff. She was with me for my last experiment.

I tested ABS vs. non-ABS (just pull out a fuse on the car), thinking my ability to find the "sweet spot" between maximum non-locking braking and locked wheels would be better than just letting ABS kick in. ABS was a clear winner on both dirt and paved roads.

So if you're a cop that has a car full of beloved family when your car takes off on you, brake first, then if you want to pray or call 911, do it after you handle it yourself, otherwise, it's more of a Darwin award for not having the ability to problem solve on your own rather than relying on external help.

If I had to concede anything, it was quite a surprise to me how hard it was to get the vehicles to stop after I had slowed to 10mph. This might cause a small collision, but unlikely fatal. It could be guessed that stopping the truck in any of the 4-low settings might be quite a chore, including possible drive-train damage. Even the truck's highest range (4-high/2-high) has a pretty slow 1st gear due to the tow package 5-speed automatic tranny, especially compared to a car's first gear (30mph shift on truck vs. 40mph on car). I'll probably take the video down soon.

edit - took video down

[rockouthippie]

Now that you've admitted being a road criminal It sounds like you think you'd have to be pretty inept to lose control. How does 120mph happen to a professional driver like a cop?

[swingdjted]

Even if I had let the speeds get up to 120+, I would guess it still would brake pretty quickly.

I could try it on the track, but it doesn't open until spring and is very expensive if you want to run past a quarter mile. I would also have to consider the truck being electronicly limited to around 110 and it's M+S tires rated only to 87 (I'm still running the factory stock BF Goodrich mud, snow, & rugged trail tires). I don't think the car has a governor and its tires are V-rated (149mph max). I doubt it's stong enough or geared high enough to get past that limitation; not willing to go quite that fast on a regular road.

I'm not sure what to think of the story that was reported - there had to be other things involved. Suicide maybe, I dont know.

[rockouthippie]

I think it is pretty obvious that something else was going on besides the recall issue. I really don't have much experience with 200hp ricers. I've drove 100hp popcorn poppers and 400 hp street racers.

Something sounds fishy about this.

[MegaRock]

Originally posted by rockouthippie
So.... hmmmm.... How does this floor mat sticking thing work?

Dunno but there goes another one:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/...html?tag=stack

But apparently alot of the mechanics I have talked to say it's not the pedals but a glitch in the electronics. Sure it's not been proven yet but it's alot more logical than the floor mat doing it. My guess is Toyota blamed it on the floor mats to cover the real issue and might not as of yet actually have it solved.

[swingdjted]

It's bullshit. The guy was probably paid to stage it. If the driver used the brakes, the car would have stopped, unless the car had malfunctioning brakes. Period.

The Prius is less than half as powerful as the vehicles I tested, yet their vented disc brakes (with all the features I mentioned on another post above) are almost as big and strong. There is nothing "out of control" about it.

There is nothing that could have kept the driver from being able to stop and turn the car off by himself.

[rockouthippie]

Toyota says there was nothing wrong with that Prius.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35870779/ns/business-autos/

My guess is Toyota blamed it on the floor mats to cover the real issue and might not as of yet actually have it solved.

Toyota hasn't blamed anything. They are responding only to customer reports of the issue and have not been able to replicate the problem. Customers said it was the floor mats (but it's nor been reported on a Prius) so they fixed the floor mats.

Here is the 911 call from the cop who died claiming no brakes and a stuck throttle. Warning! The sound of people who knew they were gonna die. Why no brakes? Why didn't he turn the car off? Wow!

http://www.momlogic.com/2009/09/911_...ator_crash.php

[swingdjted]

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...tion-tech_dept

Car and Driver had my same idea apparently.

With the Camry’s throttle pinned while going 70 mph, the brakes easily overcame all 268 horsepower straining against them and stopped the car in 190 feet—that’s a foot shorter than the performance of a Ford Taurus without any gas-pedal problems and just 16 feet longer than with the Camry’s throttle closed.

and that muscle car with the many hundreds of oversized testicles under the hood...

We included the powerful Roush Mustang to test—in the extreme—the theory that “brakes are stronger than the engine.” From 70 mph, the Roush’s brakes were still resolutely king even though a pinned throttle added 80 feet to its stopping distance. However, from 100 mph, it wasn’t clear from behind the wheel that the Mustang was going to stop. But after 903 feet—almost three times longer than normal—the 540-hp supercharged Roush finally did succumb, chugging to a stop in a puff of brake smoke.

[swingdjted]

New forum logs me out and won't let me edit because of it. I just wanted to add that they used the same model car/engine (same 268 hp engine) that I did.

[swingdjted]

more:

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/car...vers-editorial

Stuck throttles (not floor mat issue)

NHTSA hasn't determined that this has actually caused any fatalities...
...Some allege that electromagnetic interference could be causing the electronic throttles in Toyotas to become stuck open; this is completely unsubstantiated. It’s also possible that alien tractor beams are to blame...
...In 1986, the television program 60 Minutes started Audi's "unintended acceleration" scandal. The show trotted out tearful people, recounted death and carnage, spoke to so-called experts, and generally made it seem like the vehicle in question, the Audi 5000, was a roving menace with a mind of its own. In the end, the U.S. government determined that every single so-called unintended acceleration accident was the result of driver error...

And, here's the motivation behind all this hype...

http://blog.caranddriver.com/chrysle...ew-incentives/

Good luck competition. People know better, and recent sales show that they're not falling for any of this bullshit. Those that are targeted are still outselling the competition.

[rockouthippie]

Toyota has asked ABC for a retraction on news stories about their cars:

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...tv-report.html

[swingdjted]

In addition to having no evidence that the brakes were even applied,

ABC News had included a fabricated video image of a car tachometer in the broadcast “to create the false and misleading impression with viewers of a dangerous and uncontrolled acceleration,” Reynolds wrote.

A CBS report says that a Prius was floored for over 20 minutes until a cop finally got in front and stopped it. How could someone survive for 20 minutes in town with a car floored? The Prius is capable of speeds exceeding 100 mph, just like almost any other car. The report said the incident happened in town. No mention of brakes or neutral. How believable is that?

[rockouthippie]

I almost mentioned that. It isn't believable at all. That CBS report contradicts their own video interview, where dude says he stopped it using the e-brake and the brakes at the same time. The cop I guess used the bull horn to give him those instructions.

At 100mph, putting a cruiser in front of the car...... just think about it..... would you try it?

[swingdjted]

Well, you're asking the wrong person... I tend to try shit that I shouldn't.

Oddly enough, something in me says that it would be possible with well-trained drivers to pull off a cop cruiser stopping a floored Prius like that, but it would have to be carefully planned, with the best driver in the Prius.

[swingdjted]

Bump: study from NHTSA, NSA, and NASA of all people has been released:

http://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/nvs...rt_execsum.pdf

Basically the only notable problems that can be proven are floor mat issues and drivers accidentally hitting the wrong pedal.