Need better forum organization and support

4th December 2000, 22:53

I think nullsoft needs to actually setup the bug and support forums so that they can actually get bug info on winamp and give support for it rather than having it be the mess it is now they also should have somebody who's job is to make bug lists to be fixed and respond to support and bug posts

Dragono · 4th December 2000, 23:21

if anybody plays muds using zmud look as zuggs forums on the zuggsoft site and you will see exactly what I mean

DJ Egg · 5th December 2000, 07:03

Huh?

Dragono · 5th December 2000, 17:01

goto www.zuggsoft.com and look at the way their forums work and you will see exactly what I mean

Mr. Ice · 6th December 2000, 10:48

the first thing i noticed about that site is that you have to pay for their programs. you don't pay for winamp. for a free product, winamp has kick ass tech support. hell, they have better tech support than most of the non-free software companies...

Dragono · 6th December 2000, 16:57

well about that the thing you have to understand is that company first of all charges 25 dollars for their software and after that you neve pay again so it is generally not considered enough to even affect that much and also the company is run by about 4 people total that's it zugg, zugg's wife, darker and 1 other I beleave that is the entire staff and their forum's are still that good that is why I don't see a reason nullsoft can't do it as well

Twilightseer · 6th December 2000, 17:16

Dragono,

Winamp is freeware.
I repeat: Winamp is freeware.
And as such, it shouldn't even be supported. And I prefer by far having Winamp for free and tech support by "non-professional" members/moderators than paying for Winamp and "professional" tech support. I guess I'm not the only one to think so.

------------------
Twilightseer

Life isn't funny. Don't you know that ?

DJ Egg · 7th December 2000, 03:11

Anyway, just what's wrong with our technical support then ?
Do you have a question we can help you with, maybe ?

7th December 2000, 14:08

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DJEgg:
Anyway, just what's wrong with our technical support then ?
Do you have a question we can help you with, maybe ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, somebody might read the thread "Winamp crash in win2000" ( a reproducable crash of winamp ) or at least pretend that he read it and post something like "OK, we read it, so shut up now"

stein ( 1stein@derkla.writeme.com )
( derkla is xxxx-ish for 'spam' , remove it )

Twilightseer · 7th December 2000, 15:03

stein,

I read the thread you mentioned and yes, there seems to be a bug.
Now, what you can do is send a bug report formto the Winamp team to explain what happens.

------------------
Twilightseer

Life isn't funny. Don't you know that ?

[This message has been edited by Twilightseer (edited December 07, 2000).]

Reverend Ike · 7th December 2000, 17:22

First, be assured that the Nullsoft developers read the Bug Reports forum and the Wishlist forum. Just because they don't stop what they're doing and answer personally, doesn't mean a reported problem hasn't been noted.

Also, please remember that "bugs" are going to be given differing levels of priority. In stein's case, he has a "bug" that 99.9% of users aren't going to encounter because most users don't fiddle with their plugins like that. Plus, the "bug" is easily avoidable.

Actually, I'm impressed with the speed that Justin responds to problems on which he has placed a high priority.

Of course, there is always room for improvement in everything, including the forums. And I'm sure that Nullsoft wants things to improve. My pet peeve is with AOL, who isn't smart enough to know that insufficient customer support loses "customers", and who apparently won't provide Nullsoft with financial backing so they can hire enough people to provide sufficient support.

Dragono · 7th December 2000, 18:41

the point you're failing to see is that this place could be far more organized and it doesn't take more staff or more money just somebody who will bother to take the time to make sure that people aren't reposting already known bugs, bugs in older versions etc... and most of all let people know that the coders are aware of the bugs that get posted and that they are being fixed aka what moderators should be doing besides telling people who just might know something that they are wrong

[This message has been edited by Dragono (edited December 07, 2000).]

Reverend Ike · 7th December 2000, 22:28

Dragono -

Actually, I'm in total agreement with everything you say about better organization. I just think it's a lot bigger job than you think, and I don't know who's going to do it.

The people who post helpful information (both moderators and members) probably already spend more time here than they can afford. And we've already established that Nullsoft is not allowed to hire additional staff. So when you say it needs "just somebody who will bother to take the time", who are you referring to? Who is going to take on an unpaid job that requires a substantial investment of time day after day?

As far as what constitutes a moderator's "job": Personally, I volunteer my time primarily to help novice users, who just need a tip or two to get their Winamp working. I do that because, when I was a software novice, it would have been great to get that kind of help, instead of pay-per-minute tech support, emails that go unanswered, etc.

The fact is, organizing the bug reports, determining which bug reports are "duplicates", and then making the responses you suggest, requires someone with extensive computer (and probably coding) experience. In short, it's a real job. Just like fixing all the problems with the website is a real job. Just like rewriting the FAQ and documentation is a real job.

The bottom line is AOL doesn't want to pay people to do these real jobs, they'd rather just pay a few key people, and then have dozens of unofficial interns (us) try to take care of the users' problems. As long as that is the reality, these forums will not reach the potential that you (and I) envision. On the other hand, these forums still provide a higher level of support than 90% of the software sites that I have visited.

DJ Egg · 8th December 2000, 03:27

I've posted a reply in stein's win2k bug thread, maybe you'd care to read it.
In addition, if people aren't prepared to use the search facility or can't be bothered to post their full system specifications, or don't read the FAQ or look in the TSGH forum first, then how can we be blamed for not answering their problems . . . and for free too ?!?!

In Stein's case, he posted about 4 replies to his own thread.
With there being so many posts to go through over all of the forums, sometimes, when you see that a new thread has been replied to, it's easy to initially assume that the problem could already have been solved. Therefore mods/members might well skip such a thread and move on to one with no replies instead.
If Stein would have properly prepared his initial post he might well have got a much speedier reply.

btw, I checked out the zuggsoft forums and wasn't that impressed.
I can't see how it's better in any way whatsoever.

Anyway, the new & improved winamp.com forum software is to be implemented very soon, so who knows what the future has in store.

Right, does anyone have a real question for us, let's go & see.
Back to work, onward & eternal.

------------------------------
Your friendly humble moderator

Twilightseer · 8th December 2000, 11:46

I definitely agree with Reverend Ike and DJEgg. Nullsoft does some awesome work to offer the best mp3 player available plus reliable tech support, and all of this for free. How many other software companies do that ?

------------------
Twilightseer

Life isn't funny. Don't you know that ?

imPLoDeR · 11th December 2000, 00:15

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Twilightseer:
stein,

I read the thread you mentioned and yes, there seems to be a bug.
Now, what you can do is send a bug report formto the Winamp team to explain what happens.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The problem there is the FORM is OUTdated.
It only goes up to Winamp2.61 and it only has Windows2000 Beta, no PRO option ETC. That is why I chose to post a bug in the forum instead of a Form that is incorrect and so my bug might have been overlooked since I would have only had the option of choosing WA2.61 instead if WA2.7

Later,

imPLoDeR@z.com

DJ Egg · 11th December 2000, 01:58

Sheesh, that's bloody typical. Outrageous infact.
I suppose you could always state your OS & Winamp version details in the message section, for now at least.
I'm sure the form will finally get updated very soon.

[This message has been edited by DJEgg (edited December 11, 2000).]

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4th December 2000, 22:53	#1
Dragono Guest Posts: n/a	I think nullsoft needs to actually setup the bug and support forums so that they can actually get bug info on winamp and give support for it rather than having it be the mess it is now they also should have somebody who's job is to make bug lists to be fixed and respond to support and bug posts

4th December 2000, 23:21	#2
Dragono Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Posts: 4	if anybody plays muds using zmud look as zuggs forums on the zuggsoft site and you will see exactly what I mean

5th December 2000, 07:03	#3
DJ Egg Techorator Winamp & Shoutcast Team Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 35,894	Huh?

5th December 2000, 17:01	#4
Dragono Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Posts: 4	goto www.zuggsoft.com and look at the way their forums work and you will see exactly what I mean

6th December 2000, 10:48	#5
Mr. Ice Captain Moderator Join Date: May 2000 Location: USA Posts: 763	the first thing i noticed about that site is that you have to pay for their programs. you don't pay for winamp. for a free product, winamp has kick ass tech support. hell, they have better tech support than most of the non-free software companies...

6th December 2000, 16:57	#6
Dragono Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Posts: 4	well about that the thing you have to understand is that company first of all charges 25 dollars for their software and after that you neve pay again so it is generally not considered enough to even affect that much and also the company is run by about 4 people total that's it zugg, zugg's wife, darker and 1 other I beleave that is the entire staff and their forum's are still that good that is why I don't see a reason nullsoft can't do it as well

6th December 2000, 17:16	#7
Twilightseer Frenchoderator Join Date: May 2000 Location: Lavabo, fond du couloir, 3è porte à droite Posts: 6,309	Dragono, Winamp is freeware. I repeat: Winamp is freeware. And as such, it shouldn't even be supported. And I prefer by far having Winamp for free and tech support by "non-professional" members/moderators than paying for Winamp and "professional" tech support. I guess I'm not the only one to think so. ------------------ Twilightseer Life isn't funny. Don't you know that ?

7th December 2000, 03:11	#8
DJ Egg Techorator Winamp & Shoutcast Team Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 35,894	Anyway, just what's wrong with our technical support then ? Do you have a question we can help you with, maybe ?

7th December 2000, 14:08	#9
stein Guest Posts: n/a	<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DJEgg: Anyway, just what's wrong with our technical support then ? Do you have a question we can help you with, maybe ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, somebody might read the thread "Winamp crash in win2000" ( a reproducable crash of winamp ) or at least pretend that he read it and post something like "OK, we read it, so shut up now" stein ( 1stein@derkla.writeme.com ) ( derkla is xxxx-ish for 'spam' , remove it )

7th December 2000, 15:03	#10
Twilightseer Frenchoderator Join Date: May 2000 Location: Lavabo, fond du couloir, 3è porte à droite Posts: 6,309	stein, I read the thread you mentioned and yes, there seems to be a bug. Now, what you can do is send a bug report formto the Winamp team to explain what happens. ------------------ Twilightseer Life isn't funny. Don't you know that ? [This message has been edited by Twilightseer (edited December 07, 2000).]

7th December 2000, 17:22	#11
Reverend Ike Evangelical Alumni Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 1,533	First, be assured that the Nullsoft developers read the Bug Reports forum and the Wishlist forum. Just because they don't stop what they're doing and answer personally, doesn't mean a reported problem hasn't been noted. Also, please remember that "bugs" are going to be given differing levels of priority. In stein's case, he has a "bug" that 99.9% of users aren't going to encounter because most users don't fiddle with their plugins like that. Plus, the "bug" is easily avoidable. Actually, I'm impressed with the speed that Justin responds to problems on which he has placed a high priority. Of course, there is always room for improvement in everything, including the forums. And I'm sure that Nullsoft wants things to improve. My pet peeve is with AOL, who isn't smart enough to know that insufficient customer support loses "customers", and who apparently won't provide Nullsoft with financial backing so they can hire enough people to provide sufficient support.

7th December 2000, 18:41	#12
Dragono Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Posts: 4	the point you're failing to see is that this place could be far more organized and it doesn't take more staff or more money just somebody who will bother to take the time to make sure that people aren't reposting already known bugs, bugs in older versions etc... and most of all let people know that the coders are aware of the bugs that get posted and that they are being fixed aka what moderators should be doing besides telling people who just might know something that they are wrong [This message has been edited by Dragono (edited December 07, 2000).]

7th December 2000, 22:28	#13
Reverend Ike Evangelical Alumni Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 1,533	Dragono - Actually, I'm in total agreement with everything you say about better organization. I just think it's a lot bigger job than you think, and I don't know who's going to do it. The people who post helpful information (both moderators and members) probably already spend more time here than they can afford. And we've already established that Nullsoft is not allowed to hire additional staff. So when you say it needs "just somebody who will bother to take the time", who are you referring to? Who is going to take on an unpaid job that requires a substantial investment of time day after day? As far as what constitutes a moderator's "job": Personally, I volunteer my time primarily to help novice users, who just need a tip or two to get their Winamp working. I do that because, when I was a software novice, it would have been great to get that kind of help, instead of pay-per-minute tech support, emails that go unanswered, etc. The fact is, organizing the bug reports, determining which bug reports are "duplicates", and then making the responses you suggest, requires someone with extensive computer (and probably coding) experience. In short, it's a real job. Just like fixing all the problems with the website is a real job. Just like rewriting the FAQ and documentation is a real job. The bottom line is AOL doesn't want to pay people to do these real jobs, they'd rather just pay a few key people, and then have dozens of unofficial interns (us) try to take care of the users' problems. As long as that is the reality, these forums will not reach the potential that you (and I) envision. On the other hand, these forums still provide a higher level of support than 90% of the software sites that I have visited.

8th December 2000, 03:27	#14
DJ Egg Techorator Winamp & Shoutcast Team Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 35,894	I've posted a reply in stein's win2k bug thread, maybe you'd care to read it. In addition, if people aren't prepared to use the search facility or can't be bothered to post their full system specifications, or don't read the FAQ or look in the TSGH forum first, then how can we be blamed for not answering their problems . . . and for free too ?!?! In Stein's case, he posted about 4 replies to his own thread. With there being so many posts to go through over all of the forums, sometimes, when you see that a new thread has been replied to, it's easy to initially assume that the problem could already have been solved. Therefore mods/members might well skip such a thread and move on to one with no replies instead. If Stein would have properly prepared his initial post he might well have got a much speedier reply. btw, I checked out the zuggsoft forums and wasn't that impressed. I can't see how it's better in any way whatsoever. Anyway, the new & improved winamp.com forum software is to be implemented very soon, so who knows what the future has in store. Right, does anyone have a real question for us, let's go & see. Back to work, onward & eternal. ------------------------------ Your friendly humble moderator

8th December 2000, 11:46	#15
Twilightseer Frenchoderator Join Date: May 2000 Location: Lavabo, fond du couloir, 3è porte à droite Posts: 6,309	I definitely agree with Reverend Ike and DJEgg. Nullsoft does some awesome work to offer the best mp3 player available plus reliable tech support, and all of this for free. How many other software companies do that ? ------------------ Twilightseer Life isn't funny. Don't you know that ?

11th December 2000, 00:15	#16
imPLoDeR Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Posts: 8	<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Twilightseer: stein, I read the thread you mentioned and yes, there seems to be a bug. Now, what you can do is send a bug report formto the Winamp team to explain what happens. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The problem there is the FORM is OUTdated. It only goes up to Winamp2.61 and it only has Windows2000 Beta, no PRO option ETC. That is why I chose to post a bug in the forum instead of a Form that is incorrect and so my bug might have been overlooked since I would have only had the option of choosing WA2.61 instead if WA2.7 Later, imPLoDeR@z.com

11th December 2000, 01:58	#17
DJ Egg Techorator Winamp & Shoutcast Team Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 35,894	Sheesh, that's bloody typical. Outrageous infact. I suppose you could always state your OS & Winamp version details in the message section, for now at least. I'm sure the form will finally get updated very soon. [This message has been edited by DJEgg (edited December 11, 2000).]