Ogg Vorbis bitrates

[nybergh]

What is the "best" bitrate/quality to use with Ogg Vorbis? I played around a bit with the new v. 1.1 encoder yesterday and was again totatally overwhelmed by the low-bitrate quality compared to the NERO AAC and WMA9. I'm still forced to use mp3 becouse of my hardware players.

My speakers are not good enugh (they not crap, though) to go very far with my testing. Tell me: What bitrate is the "best" one to use for music archiving using Ogg Vorbis. I'm asking for a mode with the best possible quality/size tradeoff. Something that is transparent for most people but a reasonable file size.

LAME --alt-preset standard with anything between 150-240 as the avarage bitrate for stereo files is good enough for me when it comes to mp3. I can hear the difference between the buggy Fraunhofer ACM-encoder at 192 kbps and LAME VBR without --alt-presetting and LAME APS so I'm not completely deaf.