Flags at Half Mast for Pope....right or wrong?

[dlinkwit27]

As ordered, all US flags are being flown at half mast in honor of the death of the Pope. Is this right or wrong? True enough, the Pope was a great guy, but does this not in some way violote the seperation of church and state? Why are no other deaths of any other great religious leaders honored in this way?

Discuss.

[billyvnilly]

it should just be for fallen US citizens. yeah he was a good guy, but its a giant double standard as you pointed out.

[squakMix]

*sigh* we all know it's wrong. Nobody can/will do anything about it.

[ScorLibran]

If a person of any nationality is considered of high importance by enough of the US population, then it's justified in my opinion.

I'm personally impartial, though. I don't want anyone to die, but I cared about the pope no more or less than I would about anyone else.

[squakMix]

When the dali lama died were the flags at half staff?

[ScorLibran]

I don't think they were, and good point.

But I'd venture to say many more people in the US idolized the pope than they did the dalai lama. In fact, most Americans probably couldn't tell you where the dalai lama lived.

[cyu]

If its flown at half mast as a sign of respect then let it, but I do disagree with the ordering of the half mast.

[billyvnilly]

it wasnt lowered when mother theresa died.

Its very unsecular of bush to order flags to be lowered for a religous figure, any religous figure.

[MidnightViper88]

Ordered? I don't know about that, but otherwise, so fucking what? Raise, lower them, whatever, I'd let those who'd pay respect to do what they'd wish to...

It must have been a bad decision to send the 5 US delegates to Vatican City, then...OUR GOV'T IS RESPECTING RELIGION! OH NOES!

Bah...I'm in a grumpy mood about this whole fit about the US' reaction...

[PulseDriver]

If you felt for raising the flag at half mast when Mother Theresa died, nobody would point a finger at you for that...

[billyvnilly]

they are not respecting religion when they are just respecting "A religon" key word there is 'a'

and he did send out a presidental order to have all government flags at halfmast...

and the mother theresa thing is debatable...i just brought it up because people will argue, "oh well the pope was a great man, and he did great things!...forget that hes the leader of the catholic church, he did great things"

well, mother theresa was a whole lot less about the church and whole lot more about helping people. and if she didnt get a secular halfmast, then why would the pope get one.

[MidnightViper88]

Originally posted by billyvnilly
well, mother theresa was a whole lot less about the church and whole lot more about helping people. and if she didnt get a secular halfmast, then why would the pope get one.

Bush was/is President when Pope JPII (God, I'm lazy) had/did die...He wasn't President when Mother Theresa died...You'll have to address Theresa's recognition with Clinton...

[Mattress]

the dalai lama died?

[shakey_snake]

Originally posted by Mattress
the dalai lama died?

According to Buddahist all Dali Llamas are the same person reincarnated; So he never dies.

[d0rk]

Lowering the flags has nothing to do with the fact that he was the leader of the Catholic church. It is because of what he did for humanity. Granted Mother Theresa also helped humanity it was on a much smaller scale.

And btw, the last time I read the constitution it doesn't say there should be a seperation of church and state. In fact it doesn't even have the word church included. The idea of a seperation of church and state was an idea written down by Thomas Jefferson (I believe) but was not included into the constitution.

[squakMix]

CAn't. Stop. Watching. Your. avatar.

[izchan]

isn't the pope also considered the head of state?
He does rule rome.

[NJK]

Originally posted by izchan
isn't the pope also considered the head of state?
He does rule rome.

no not Rome but vatican city. a small area in Rome where the church and some other buildings are.

The Vatican has it's own army (symbolic) has it's own Euro's etc etc

[. - .... .- -. ....]

Originally posted by billyvnilly
it should just be for fallen US citizens. yeah he was a good guy, but its a giant double standard as you pointed out.

Yet the rest of the world was expected to fly their flags at half mast after 9/11 - those that didn't were severely criticised on the news, I remember it all too well.

Regarding the point of commemorating the deaths of other religious leaders - the american constitution (and the Irish one, for that matter) states that we cannot elevate one religion above another - there is nothing in our constitution which says we cannot nor should not commemorate significant events. And it seems to me that its more about rememberance of a very good man, more than anything vaguely religious, which is perfectly acceptable to me.

Personally, I admired the man as a person of principle. He was not afraid to take a stance aginst world powers, such as the soviet union. or the US over the Iraqi war, and he spoke out many times about the evils of a world that leaves a huge proportion of its population in poverty, while a tiny percentage live in a world of affluence.

[izchan]

Originally posted by spaceplay
no not Rome but vatican city. a small area in Rome where the church and some other buildings are.

The Vatican has it's own army (symbolic) has it's own Euro's etc etc

Ah ... my bad. I always assumed that the pope rulled rome.

[NJK]

to refresh your knowledge

http://www.vatican.va/

comes with site maps and different language support

(just for the record i'm not a catholic, just always have another IE window open with a search engine)

[dlinkwit27]

Originally posted by ethan_h
Yet the rest of the world was expected to fly their flags at half mast after 9/11 - those that didn't were severely criticised on the news, I remember it all too well.

Regarding the point of commemorating the deaths of other religious leaders - the american constitution (and the Irish one, for that matter) states that we cannot elevate one religion above another - there is nothing in our constitution which says we cannot nor should not commemorate significant events. And it seems to me that its more about rememberance of a very good man, more than anything vaguely religious, which is perfectly acceptable to me.

Personally, I admired the man as a person of principle. He was not afraid to take a stance aginst world powers, such as the soviet union. or the US over the Iraqi war, and he spoke out many times about the evils of a world that leaves a huge proportion of its population in poverty, while a tiny percentage live in a world of affluence.

1) i didn't expect anyone else to fly half mast. If was our tradegy, not anyone elses.
2) none of thoses people were huge religious figures, whose celebrated death could interpated (sp) as support for said religion.


@ dork. That is because it isn't in the constitutuion. It is in the bill of rights. First amendment. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"
and yes, while this is not a law, neither is having the 10 commandments in the capitol of South Carolina, but people got upset about that as well. It is about precident, and that is what our country's legal and political is built on.

[shakey_snake]

Originally posted by dlinkwit27
1) i didn't expect anyone else to fly half mast. If was our tradegy, not anyone elses.
2) none of thoses people were huge religious figures, whose celebrated death could interpated (sp) as support for said religion.

This is a rediculous arguement, because you are mis-applying a 18th Century law to a 21 century situation. The first admendment does not require the gov't to be atheist. What it is saying is saying is that no belief system should be adopted by the state. In the 18th century, the biggest conflict of belief systems was between the Puritans and the Anglican Churches and so the document was written with that in mind. Today, the biggest conflict is between atheism and theism.
So, to say that the gov't should refrain support for anything that could be interpreted as religious promotion is to elevate atheism above theism.
To respect a man who has been renown by both theists and atheist humanitarians, is not promoting a religion.

I'm a protestant. In no way do feel persecuted by this gov'tal request. In fact, my college, a college based on a protestant faith, is flying our flag half-staff in respect for the Pope, right now.

Originally posted by dlinkwit27
@ dork. That is because it isn't in the constitutuion. It is in the bill of rights. First amendment. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"
and yes, while this is not a law, neither is having the 10 commandments in the capitol of South Carolina, but people got upset about that as well. It is about precident, and that is what our country's legal and political is built on.

And yet you'll agree with a judge who says that precedent is not a reason to ban gay marriage?
http://forums.winamp.com/showthread....hreadid=210498

[Mr Jones]

Originally posted by shakey_snake
To respect a man who has been renown by both theists and atheist humanitarians, is not promoting a religion.

I'm a protestant. In no way do feel persecuted by this gov'tal request. In fact, my college, a college based on a protestant faith, is flying our flag half-staff in respect for the Pope, right now.

DISCO!, snakey hits the nail on the head.

It's not about religion, it's not about state, it's not about whatever reason you wanna put behind it, it's simply about showing a mark of respect to a man who, wether you like it not, meant a great deal to a great deal of people the world over.

Our company today is flying it's company flag at half mast,a thing that is usually on reserved for people who were important in the companies history that have died, or huge world events, like 911 etc, I'm pretty darn sure that JPII never worked here in his lifetime, so I guess it must be for the other reason.

/pope side note, I waved at the pope when he visited my town back in 1982, man he knew how to draw a crowd....

[ShyShy]

http://www.cbsnews.com/elements/2005...ay686318.shtml',540,400

Would any other person's death have drawn such a huge variety of enemy countries and different religions together for one day?

[dlinkwit27]

Originally posted by shakey_snake
This is a rediculous arguement, because you are mis-applying a 18th Century law to a 21 century situation. The first admendment does not require the gov't to be atheist. What it is saying is saying is that no belief system should be adopted by the state. In the 18th century, the biggest conflict of belief systems was between the Puritans and the Anglican Churches and so the document was written with that in mind. Today, the biggest conflict is between atheism and theism.
So, to say that the gov't should refrain support for anything that could be interpreted as religious promotion is to elevate atheism above theism.
To respect a man who has been renown by both theists and atheist humanitarians, is not promoting a religion.

I'm a protestant. In no way do feel persecuted by this gov'tal request. In fact, my college, a college based on a protestant faith, is flying our flag half-staff in respect for the Pope, right now.


And yet you'll agree with a judge who says that precedent is not a reason to ban gay marriage?
http://forums.winamp.com/showthread....hreadid=210498

I'm too lazy to pick out the points I want, but I never said I agree or disagree with what the US is doing with the flags, I just borught the topic up.

And I do agree with the gay marriage thign because that is completely different. This is about potetionally violating the first amendment, while the other violates some interpitations of the 16th (i think the 16th).

Again though, I just brought up a topic of discussion.

[billyvnilly]

a big reason why other countries lowered their flags for 9-11 is because not just americans died that day!

[thedoggfather]

Originally posted by shakey_snake
In fact, my college, a college based on a protestant faith, is flying our flag half-staff in respect for the Pope, right now.

My school is protestant too and they didn't lower the flag. I was pissed when I saw that; every other flag in town is lowered and we look like we have no respect for the dead. I don't know if they are trying to make some dumbass point or if they just forgot, but I hope to see catholics in heaven.

[ScorLibran]

Originally posted by spaceplay
no not Rome but vatican city. a small area in Rome where the church and some other buildings are.

The Vatican has it's own army (symbolic) has it's own Euro's etc etc

Trivia Time:

The Vatican is actually a country, the smallest country in the world. It covers 0.2 square miles of ground, and has a population of just under 1000, none of whom are permanent residents.

And yes, the pope is the chief of state.

(Those of you who live closer to it probably knew all this already.)

So if anyone has problems with the theistic aspects of us flying our flags at half-mast, then just consider it respect to a deceased chief-of-state. Our country flying the flag at half-mast for the pope dying would be much like another country flying their flags at half-mast for our president dying.

[ElChevelle]

I flew my flag at half mast but that may be due to lack of horniness, old age.
You can get free samples of ****** still, right?