Can Social Networking Undermine Democracy?

[Deeplewag]

Since the Arab Spring, protesters have used communications technology to organize massive demonstrations against government policies in Spain, Greece, Israel and India. Their targets were not dictators but elected officials they saw as corrupt or indifferent to the interests of most people in those countries. Some observers regard these events as signs of a new, more enlightened era of global politics. Indeed, it is tempting to agree with a recentForbes cover story on the power of social media that the “world is becoming more democratic and reflective of the will of ordinary people.” Unfortunately, there is good reason to be skeptical.

[Too-DAMN-Much]

i think campaign contributions undermine democracy well enough on their own honestly.

furthermore when arabs learn to not spontaneously suicide bomb they can talk about being enlightened, or civilized for that matter.

one rung above animals.

[rockouthippie]

The problem with absolute democracy is that liberals would vote themselves unlimited benefits. forming an inner circle of true commies who claim to be working, but only working at trying to create tolerance for a public mazola party.

Not all lobbying is bad. I think sometimes that the interests of business and the interest of the common guy are a lot closer than the interest of politicians and our interests.

Business people give me a job. Politicians give me a tax.

[ElChevelle]

No comment.

[Warrior of the Light]

The phenomenon is new; both sides have to learn it. Governments have to learn how to use it and how to react to it, people should realize they don't know everything a government does and sometimes to just STFU and swallow the pill.

[cooky560]

We've never really had democracy, voting once every 5 years for people & then hoping they do what they said they will is not democracy, its gambling

[Warrior of the Light]

you have a better alternative?

[fc*uk]

yep. how about you eat what you kill?

Government programs kill the government and it's people. Now, I am a very nice guy, which just about anyone who comes into contact with me in the real world will agree with. I dedicate a lot of my time to helping others. I'm am not my brother's keeper. It is not my job to pay for all the lazy/ignorant fucks in this country.

So again, you eat what you kill. I'm not looking for/expecting anyone to take care of me down the road. I would rather not pay into these programs as I am not counting on them and the majority will be bankrupt by the time I retire anyway.

You can all stone me now.

A government should serve to establish order, control it's people (riots) and protect it's borders. Sounds like a job for the military.

[swingdjted]

For starters, I literally do often kill what I eat, and I value a strong work ethic as much or more than any other. I'm blessed that I am in a situation where I can.

That said,

Did you pave your own road to work?

Did you educate yourself or did you attend a public school? [if you went to a private school, chances are they still took public dollars, as both of mine did for transportation and food cost reduction]

Did your culinary knives deter another country from invading yours or does your country provide a military for that? The military is a government program.

Do you respond, pursue, and arrest when someone robs your bank or do you have police for that?

Do you actually kill what you eat, or do you depend on the supermarket to provide safe food? Buyer beware, or are you glad the FDA exists? Not everyone has the knowledge or time to check their food under a microscope before purchasing.

If you became disabled tomorrow and couldn't work anymore and had to provide your own living expenses and health care still, could you?

If you had been born to a mother who was unable to raise you properly, what would have become of you? You can't blame a kid for his parents' actions and a kid deserves a chance to make up for it, and there are those dreaded "programs" that can offer hope.

Not all "big gubmint" programs are bad, and not all that use them are bad people. Almost none of them are completely bad. Some could use some fixing, but most of them are there for good reason. Most, if not all, are highly research based and are carefully monitored to ensure they do what they're designed to do and are cut when they don't.

There needs to be balance. A lack of government programs would be an annihilation to the economy anyway, although most people that don't study economics can't seem to understand that. Take a little time to think about it. Look at the whole picture, twice if necessary. I'll explain if necessary, but I'm guessing you're intelligent enough to realize what kind of collapse would happen if you were to take all programs but military away.

If you're referring to Social Security... just think of what would happen if it was taken away today. Fine for you in your professional gig with a privatized separate retirement plan, but not everyone has that. Some can barely make minimum rent and living expense payments despite working their asses off. Should they still be working when they're 89 years old and killing what they eat?

For now, I'll work hard, try to prepare for anything, and be as self-sufficient as possible, but if something happens where I need some help, I'll be damn glad it's there. In the mean time, I'll keep killing what I eat.

[fc*uk]

I hear ya. I also completely disagree. Instead of individually picking lets just try everything at once.

You know, at some point in time in our nation's history everything you pointed out above did not exist. There was no FDA, no social security, no programs to provide for healthcare and living expenses. Yet somehow we managed. It's kinda like Chev's statement that we got all this shit now, but maybe, just maybe, we were actully better off 200 years ago.

These programs breed laziness and encourage people to abuse the system. Sure, it's the bad the ruin it for everyone else.

I live in detroit. Maybe I see more of this than most. Auto industry; fuck em. They had their heads up their ass for the past 30 years. They failed at business, yet I got to bail them out.

The auto industry feed entitlement in this state. You had people without any sort of an education or skilled trade working on a line earning $30-$40 an hour. You had electricians sleeping on the job earning $75 an hour, but where there just in case that light needed to be changed. You have these people thinking that they are entitled to owing a $2 million dollar home because they work for Ford and have no education.

Unions only fed this festering shit hole. Suddenly you won't do that because it's not in your job description. You need more money because you really want that $3 million dollar home with your lack of education. You are not going to work a second past your shift because you are not paid for it. Unions made it happen.

That has spread across the entire country. I'm sick of paying for women to churn out children so they can get a bigger welfare check. I'm tired of bailing out failed industries. I'm tired of paying for people to be unemployed for 90 weeks (I believe that was the max extension not too long ago).

100 years ago, we had none of this. If you failed at your business, it went belly up. If you unforuntately lost your job, you had to figure out a way to survive. Now everybody wants to be taken care of, everyone want a a bailout, everyone wants their government cheese, no one wants to be accountable for anything.

It's called being responsible. We have forgotten how to be responsible and are expecting the government to take care of us. We are unwilling to look at the cost of these programs or how we will sustain them. We just want. Gimmem, gimme, gimme; free, free, free. The problem is, someone has to pay for it. Right now, we can't.

It's bullshit. We have gone too far. If something is not done about it soon we are all going to be screwed.

As I have said before, the problem with socialism (which essentially all of these programs are) is eventually you run out of other people's money. Then what?

edit:

Missed this in your post: If we took all these government programs away (roads, for example) it would become privatized, which is how it was before.

The FDA has only served to drive up medical costs, conduct bad studies, and pull good drugs off the market (*****; increased rick of heart attack. Sure, study was conducted on diabetics whom were in the early stages of heart failure --- gee, really? Increased risk of heart attack.). Again, there should not need to be an FDA. It's called ethics. Unfortunately, these big pharma companies have gotten too concerned about the bottom line anymore to really care about ethics. They have gotten too concerned about the bottom line because to costs too much money to bring a drug to market; thanks FDA for screwing the system. Though I can only speak about the FDA as it applies to *******euticals, I would guess the same applies to everything that they govern.

[Too-DAMN-Much]

i will now demonstrate the difference seen with and without welfare.

ready?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=africa+poor

no welfare.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=USA+poor

with welfare.

it looks like the facts are disagreeing with you fc*uck

[fc*uk]

I fail to see your point in your sarcastic use of a google search.

Mismanagment of country resuoures? Corrupt leadership? Our definition of poor?

I think the first two are obvious.

If you are on about our definition of poor as compared to someone living in Africa. Yeah, maybe that's the self-entitlement I was going on about....

Do you think the welfare program saved us from being Africa? Welfare only existed after 1935. I believe the reason why Africa headed south was after the economic crysis of the 1970's, corruption, and political instability within the country. Welfare was not going to save Africa from that.

[Too-DAMN-Much]

to reiterate, without welfare:
the poor are shit.

with welfare:
the poor are just barely still comparable to humans.

and it's not just africa, try searching for:
1. south america poor.
2. mexico poor.
3. iraq poor.
4. china poor.
5. japan poor.


now repeat that search replacing the other places names with any place that has welfare or is communism controlled (i'm not a communist but they do have an economy and taxation system that is designed to keep money somewhat evenly spread out) and you'll see as the rest of us have that you sir are trying to present an assumption that is untrue as a fact.

i'll give you that being poor is still being poor, but at the same time, i can easily see without looking much at all who's poverty stricken masses have the better quality of life overall.

[fc*uk]

Got it.

I'm not saying welfare does not work; you read that into what I wrote. It does help people out; but the same number of people abuse it.

I'm saying I am sick and tired of paying for the people that abuse it. Because we can't stop the abuse and because these people are the biggest drain, then maybe we need to look at another approach. Back in the early days (pre 1935), when someone fell on their ass, their friends/family/nice people helped them out; not the government.

People that were blowtards were left to suffer. These blowtards are the modern day abusers of the system.

That's what I meant by:

These programs breed laziness and encourage people to abuse the system. Sure, it's the bad the ruin it for everyone else.

Up until people knew they had to look out for themselves, I'll bet they worked a lot harder at what they did and they were a lot more concerned about a quality of work. What's the incentive now? If I fuck up, the government will just be there to bail me out. Why even work hard anymore; why even put forth an effort? Fuck, why even work I get 90 weeks of unemployment!

People in this situiation don't care about doing better, learning, going an extra mile. Instead they want the extra mile to be handed to them.

These governmental programs, no matter if they do good or not, breed this type of an attitude. Before you know it, there is not going to be anyone left that atcually knows how to survive on their own.

Ted is a rare case in that he is still trying to look out for himself and his family. Most anymore are quite happy to suck off the government bottle. Until we get to the point that we have a failing program like social security and we can't take it away from the 87 year old because it truly is criminal, yet we can't afford to keep it going.

[rockouthippie]

Originally Posted by fc*uk

100 years ago, we had none of this.

No. They had sweat shops where you'd work 16 hours a day, 7 days a week for sometimes enough to eat and possible enough to get a warm place to sleep. Your 6 year old would be right next to you in the mine.

In my lifetime there has been a massive increase in the GDP. This is enough that the standard of living for all Americans should have improved in my generation. Wages stagnated.

Where did the money go? Rich fuckers. Who are the richest fuckers? Liberal rich fuckers. If they were Christians, they couldn't screw you that hard. Hence: why they are liberals.

I've helped the poor a lot in my life. Liberals figured out how to make a 6 figure "job" out of it. (i.e. Michelle Obama). Left to decide our health care fate, they engaged in the best example of cronyism you ever met.

Remember. Liberals are smarter, more open minded than you and better educated than you. They deserve 6 figures for handing out condoms, arranging lodging for prostitutes and killing 50 million babies. .

To make sure the yuppie has it's gerbil wheel and a BMW for each foot, we are all going to have to pay them whatever they want. The're just that fucking special.

Tolerance is essential too. I'll admit I have trouble being tolerant of yuppie, liberal pricks that claim to be humanitarians, green conscious and the rest of the left bullshit line. It's not a wonder they want gun control.

A million people attended Obama's inauguration.... 14 missed work.

The word I've coined for this is "Professional victims" Included are Louis Ferrikam, Gloria Steinham, Al Franken, Gloria Alred, Reverend Al, Hillary and Jesse Jackson.... etc .... ad nauseam...

When I used to be a salesman, we had a joke about how we should wear "Dog Bracer" aftershave, so you could "smell the biscuit" with a scent that smelled like dog biscuits. Our company more or less told us that if we could just jump a little higher we could make a living. You'd jump that high. They'd jerk the biscuit and tell you you had to jump even higher like they were teasing a dog.

This is the US government. Sit Fido! Everybody knows that when you give a government complete control over everything, things just work out peachy.... poor, poor oppressed puppy.... Speak! Be Tolerant while I bugger your leg! You'll get the cookie! We'll pay butch here $300,000 a year to advocate equal rights for people with "outey" belly buttons. She's Princeton educated. Had that un-sanded telephone pole wedged in there for 20 years now. Good puppy. The cookie? We'll give that to you next time.... promise...

God hates "Outeys'"!

[swingdjted]

You can hate on unions all you want, but nearly every union teacher I have ever worked with in 4 states and literally dozens of buildings put in more than an hour of unpaid time every work day (I and many others put in several per day) in addition to several unpaid entire work days before and after each school year. I wish I could brag and say I'm a rare case, but I'm really not.

$30-40 per hour? Go to the plant and check. Some of my fellow '96 graduates started immediately at the GM Lordstown Plant and are at around maybe $24 now, plus a pretty nice benefit package I'll admit though. Those are the rare extremes that the media likes to portray as the norm. I once made $1200 for DJing a 1 and a half hour wedding reception for an insurance tycoon's daughter who was a friend of mine, because I was the only show around with a swing dance collection. If the media got a hold of that info, they'd say I was a entertainer's-union-card-holding DJ that makes $800 per hour.

$70/hour for a licensed electrician? Call one to your home. Sadly, that's actually a decent price by today's rates. It has nothing to do with light bulbs, it has to do with fixing a problem fast so that more expensive delays in production, fires, or other safety problems don't happen. Having a "sleeping electrician" on call actually saves money, even though it sounds quite ridiculous. Many jobs are like this, especially networking gurus.

Another thing, without basic needs being met, don't fool yourself; you don't get responsibility as a result. It just doesn't work that way. Here's how it works: you get crime and other bad acts of desperation. Sadly, before these "programs" existed, my own ancestors were proof. My great and great-great grandfathers on both sides lost their lives because of it. They worked when they could find work, and if they couldn't, they'd either get in the boxing ring for a cut of gambling money or would go out and steal. Finally the newer generations started being a bunch of Cleveland police officers, earning a gub'mint check, enough to modestly raise a family with some dignity and sense of stability without having to resort to desperation.

The abusers do exist; this I know. I teach many of their kids. I see some of them buy groceries with their food stamp card and then sell them at a food stand for drug money while letting their kids starve. As a fix, we end up having to offer free lunches and even breakfasts to 100% of the kids in our building because of this, and we offer a meal for those that choose to stay for the after school program. Because of this, we hope to encourage the reduction in food stamp benefits for school aged kids, since we can ensure and prove the food money is being used more correctly when we spend it when compared to giving it to the parents; plus we can prepare the food in bulk for far less money per meal. Some money would still need to go home for weekends, holidays, and summers, but it's a move in the right direction. We keep records of all this, and we'll likely help change the already decent programs for the better, not eliminate them.

If you go back to no programs, you go back to aristocracy/peasant a.k.a. Dark Ages, and that's never good for things like the economy, advancement, health, education, or just about anything else. Without some sort of minimum humane standard of living, not only are you a bully, but you lose your biggest customer base. You'd have a few Rolls Royces rolling on nice Beverly Hills roads for a few miles then boulder/root/mud paths if you ever wanted to leave town, while making it less and less possible for working class people to work and still raise a family.

Compare what we were before the programs to what we are now and look at the whole picture. There's no way you can do that without saying overall we're far, far, far, far better off.

[rockouthippie]

since we can ensure and prove the food money is being used more correctly when we spend it when compared to giving it to the parents

I'm sorry Ted, but having looked at the way things really work, I don't think you can ensure that. "School lunch fraud" returns 3.5 million hits on Google.

Do I trust the people that administrate your school lunch program more than parents? Guess. Oregon takes more children away from their parents than any other state. My experience is that their fate in foster care is often "Out of the frying pan, into the fire"

I still would put money on the average poor parent caring more about their child than the state does. Do kids parents screw them over for a fix, or do state officials screw them over for a Beemer and a million dollar house?

Who is worse?

We could use our health care debacle as an example. Our medical care is too spendy. We all said it. The solution of the liberal "program"..... Force us to buy inflated, inferior health care products at full price.

Talk about putting the wolf in charge of the hen house.

Nope. I don't think you can ensure that programs are better than parents. Not at all. I suggest you poke around your school district. If you didn't find fraud and graft, you didn't scratch the paint.

My experience is that most things government, state, local and federal are as crooked as a three dollar Bill Clinton.

You just watched crooked destroy the economy. Yay government!

[swingdjted]

Everything you type into google is gets a huge response. Just to illustrate my point, the first italicized sentence of this post got more than 64 million hits. Our 3 cafeteria staff workers drive an old Neon, a Chevy Blazer from the 90's, and one just bought a used Cobalt (for some reason I remember cars really well - it's one of those OCD things). Again, bringing up rare cases... But, even if someone did get to buy a BMW because they got food into more children's mouths in large quantities, maybe they earned it. BMWs are nice, but they're not necessarily the sign of a millionaire. A million dollar house on lunch program work? I'd have to see it to believe it.

[rockouthippie]

But, even if someone did get to buy a BMW because they got food into more children's mouths in large quantities, maybe they earned it

Are any kids hungry? Administrators of programs like this usually take 2-$600,000 a year. That's for ineffective drug programs, school programs ... ya know.... gubmint bullshit that's supposed to help folks out and doesn't.

Michelle Obama is a perfect case of paid supposed philanthropy. Barry acted like her activism was charity. She made $300,000 a year being dedicated to public service.

I'll bet you a buck if you looked around your school district, your local cops, your local judges, your state all of the above, you'd find crooked on a scale you didn't want to see.

Like I said, we wanted some health care relief, and the government said "Get Bent! Grab those ankles!" You can look at the 10 billion dollars a year we spend on 12 step programs with outcomes that are no better than nothing at all. It might even be worse than nothing. $45,000 a year to keep someone in a California prison. Here in Oregon, $14-17,000 a year per high school student. There wasn't a few hundred in there for food if they need it?

You might say government needs money for this, that or the other thing. I say the Emperor has no clothes!

[swingdjted]

I look around the school district every day. Some bumps and bruises, but overall ok. The cops, well, while still most are good, there have been a couple crooks I'll admit; this area is in need of help in that area, but we're working on it, and we're unusual to have even just a couple. The county judge lives right across the street from my beat up coal mining house, with the courthouse/jail being beside him. We're right near the middle of a mountainous coal town. His house is modest and so are his and wife's vehicles. They seem to shine up the better of the two for Sundays, but it's still not a rich person's car.

I'm still too new to WV to know what's going on at the state level. I understand that taxes are high because roads are hard to make and maintain on mountains, and because we have a lot of struggles compared to other states.

[rockouthippie]

Being rural, you may have some point that people act in good faith. I live in a blue jail town. The whole industry is to screw the taxpayer and run as many people through the wringer as possible.

You might detect the same disdain in "Too Damn Much". He lives about 8 miles from me. Our government sticks it's big fat money grubbing foot into everything it can figure out. 16 square blocks of the government sucking the life out of everything it can.

And despite spending an average $14,000 a year, a head for high schools, Johnny still can't read too often. Somehow it's impossible to squeeze a buck a day out for school lunch, impossible to get high school graduates to read at an 8th grade level and do simple math.

My favorite fiasco lately was a poor bastard with a Downs Syndrome daughter. He put up a fence to keep her in the yard. He didn't get a building permit. They fined him $5000. He offered to remove the fence. Not good enough.

Maybe you live in a place where government isn't a screw, but it isn't here.

If you have $10,000 you could probably get away with murder in Washington County. If you are broke, they'll hang your ass. It might even be the same lawyer you get as a public defender. Greasing palms will keep you out of jail.

Meanwhile, this town holds on to every petty criminal. Pay your fines or you'll be spending 10 years screwing around with a shoplifting bust. It's our industry. This place is touted as a silicon farm, but the real money is the jail and social services for the poor.

[swingdjted]

Oregon has traditionally been known for more public involvement, but you need to realize, a majority of voters made it that way and like it.

I can see your point; Oregon is 39th in graduation rate at only 2/3 of all 5-years-ago ninth graders graduating one year ago. My last state of IA was number 1 and current state of WV is #8.
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_baeo_t2.htm

[rockouthippie]

a majority of voters made it that way and like it

What I find strange is that no one likes it. One of our whacky laws that screwed up everything and vastly increased our jail population is measure 11. My 2nd cousin got caught on that and did 72 months in prison over a bar fight where no one was hurt.

Everyone knows this law is highly fucked up. It doesn't matter. It's become a matter of the money. Justice has turned into industry. Somehow it's a good thing that the taxpayers shell out a half million dollars to incarcerate a punk over stupid shit.

Most of the time, I don't even think people know what they are voting for. Someone says "tough on crime" and the public nods.

After they get done throwing you in prison for nothing, they'll sick a bevy of social workers on your ass. Republicans are known for building prisons. Liberals are known for "community corrections". In Oregon, you'll end up with some of the longest prison terms in the country.... then they'll turn you over to the liberal do-gooders for long term fleecing.

[fc*uk]

I would also had the Detroit is just as crooked as the town ROH describes, if not more.

I'm tired of hearing people tell me "I ain't lookin for a job until my (what used to be) 90 weeks is up. Fuck that, I got unemployment; I'm enjoying it".

I'm also tired of seeing the welfare fucks hop into massive SUV's with tricked out what ever or a mercades, BMW, what ever.

I've also had it with governors that have run this city and have managed to embezzle more money than they raised, or lined Thr pockets of their best mates.

It's time things change around here.

To Nash healthcare yet again. If the government runs it, then they will and have every right to tax crappy food. Canada does it; there is a massive tax on everything bad for you. Yet here we don't want the government to tell us what to eat. Sorry folks, if they are paying for the outcome of your fast food meal plan, then they have every right to dictate what people eat.

We want healthcare, but we don't want it to cost.

You can't have it both ways!!!

Again, these are my observations from what I see here every day. There are more people abusing these programs than these programs are actually helping and that makes me sick. Hence the kill what we eat. These people would have to get their act together in a hurry if that actually happened.

[rockouthippie]

We want health care, but we don't want to grab our ankles every time we pass a hospital or pay our medical insurance.

That should be doable.

There are more people abusing these programs than these programs are actually helping and that makes me sick.

I don't think that's true. It's at least 60/40, which is probably better than what it costs us in overhead for a bunch of bureaucrats. It does seem to require a masters degree in social work to help a bum decide if he wants peas or carrots with his lunch.

[swingdjted]

I'll admit, my public service job requires a masters degree, but you shouldn't want someone doing the kind of work I do with your child without that kind of training since I tend to deal with a lot of very delicate and risky, potentially life-damaging situations. You also need to understand that I get paid significantly less than most truck drivers, even in my 10th year of full time teaching/counseling. Take that low salary and subtract 12K per year for Renee and my combined minimum student loan payments (school counselors aren't eligible for student loan forgiveness), and we're really not making a boat load of money. We make enough to stay healthy, safe, and warm while still having enough left over for something nice every once in a while. If it were just one of us supporting both, we'd be just above the current poverty level after accounting for those pesky student loans, and a pair of kids would put us well under the poverty level. The dogs eat so damn much I wouldn't be surprised if they're putting us under! The dog part was an exaggeration, but the rest is true.

That student loan "program" is one I like to complain about often, but without it, college would have been impossible for both Renee and me. Private student loan options would have been impossible for each of us too for a list of reasons (we looked at private options while trying to figure out how to pay for school).

A lot of newspapers will write that teachers are getting $60-70K per year, but then when you look at the claimed school districts, you'll find that they're looking at the highest point on a salary schedule, which is often 35 years experience with a PhD. Furthermore, said district doesn't even have anyone actually placed on that spot of the salary schedule, but it's there just in writing to complete the chart in case someone actually did get that far, in which case they'd likely be worth it, since experience and training does help to make a better teacher.

When you see claims like this in the media, be skeptical. It's not as common as they make it look for someone to be making a ton of money with tax dollars. Do some research and you'll see that the claims are stretched or misleading in many cases.

[rockouthippie]

It's not as common as they make it look for someone to be making a ton of money with tax dollars.

The scandals we've had over school and jail food here haven't been for less than a ton of money. It also seems like embezzlers in the employ of the government get a lot less jail time than private sector thieves.

For the amount we spend on schools, the results are unacceptable. Oregon spends $14.5K a year on high schoolers. You didn't get that. Somebody did.

It's interesting that private schools seem to be able to give you a better education for half the money in a nicer building and half the class size. In my case, it was about 1/3rd of the cost of a public school and I got to add a full grade point to my GPA for college admission. My 3.2 became a 4.0. No one, not even the special ed brain damaged kids, left without being able to read.

You didn't get the 2/3rd extra money. Somebody did.

There are a couple mega-schools they built around here. The county jail looks nicer. As a matter of fact, without signage, you'd probably think the school was prison and the county jail was a high school.

I think public schools can afford everything but education. That would include teachers. You can tell these were fabulously expensive jail looking things. There is a 2 million dollar skateboard park owned by the school district. Hell. Kids can have about anything they want unless it's something decent to eat or an education.

Another thing the school districts do around here is screw with parents. If they want some money, they cancel the bus service and claim abject poverty.

[swingdjted]

Private schools don't provide a better education. Parents of private-school students provide the better education. I tried both public and private as a student. Public was far better in terms of teachers, supplies, facilities, course offerings, extra-curricular offerings, and especially administrators. It was an accross-the-board improvement when I switched to a public school. Private schools were all about cronyism, politics, and egotistical bullshit, with no care in the world for people that didn't have "important" parents.

Private schools spend less per kid because first of all, they do offer less; a lot less. Second, they are often recipients of enormous amounts of money from sources separate from tuition. They even receive very significant public funds, especially at the federal level, which is hard for many to believe.

Private school graduates have taken a leisurely stroll to home plate after being born on third base, prancing around like they hit a home run. Public school students run their asses off from the batter's box, just to make it to first, second, or third, and many actually do still get that true homer. The private schools pick and choose students and can dismiss anyone they want for any reason and aren't stuck dealing with anyone that could make them look bad. If you replaced private school students with an equal amount of randomly selected public school students the results would be devastating.

There really is no comparison. When you deal with a very specific, homogenous set of college-bound students, of course it's an efficient system. No need for a metal shop. No need for a multiple-disability system. No need for a well-trained teacher who knows how to get a dunce to actually "get it" by doing more than just passing out the books and giving assignments. Public schools have never had that luxury with the exception of those who carefully draw their district lines within rich suburbs of major metropolitan areas. The proof is in the socio-economic-status vs. test score achievement correlations.

As far as the pay scales go, take your public service administrative salaries and put them up against comparative positions in the for-profit private sector. You'll see that the private sector is where the real "greed" is, if I dare call it that. Both are market driven, but more-so in the private sector.

[fc*uk]

Ted I think that depends where you are. In columbus, ohio where I grew up (1 mile outside of downtown) public was fucking shit. If you survived you were ahead of the curve.

In detroit, public is worse than a joke. Again, if you survive, you are ahead of the curve.

SOme cities/states have great public schools. When that is the case, you are correct. When that is not the case, then one must go to a private school.

Being born in raised in downtown columbus, I have always gone to private schools. If I went public, I would have been at Eastmoor High School, which graduated two and killed 50 when I was of age.

[swingdjted]

If you didn't like Eastmoor which does give good opportunities for those that want them, you could have chosen Columbus's magnet school (CAHS) that would have given you opportunities that couldn't be had anywhere else in the area, not even in private schools. It is extremely highly regarded, and when you compare apples to apples, no Columbus private school can compare. The opportunities include AP courses in all areas, an International Baccalaureate program, internship programs and much more. It is perhaps the finest school in the state, and it is a public school. It receives the best possible ratings on the state report card despite serving very underprivileged students.

http://www.ode.state.oh.us/reportcar...ILD/023606.pdf

I taught and counseled at Akron public schools in OH from '02-'06 while in graduate school, a district very comparable. There are actually 8 total districts in Ohio that are generally compared in the same category: Dayton, Cincinnati, Youngstown, Akron, Canton, Columbus, Toledo, and Cleveland) - very poor, very challenged, but the students still showed a lot of success. I did a lot of extensive studies on Ohio's urban youth during graduate school. When there is a lack of success at a school, it generally isn't because of something missing at the school, it's because either the student isn't showing up, or the student has such horrible distractions in life that the student couldn't possibly put academics as a priority. Students going to these kinds of schools who do put academics as a priority still go just as far as private school students if not further.

How do you claim Eastmoor killed 50 students?

[fc*uk]

"How do you claim eastmoor killed 50 students?"

I made that up. Honestly. However, when I was a teen in columbus, there were a lot of conflicting gangs that met up at eastmoor; and a lot of people were killed in that related gang violence; or simply because you were white in a black area. I will honestly admit I pulled the 50 out of my ass to make a point; the truth is the gang activity/racial crimes at Eastmoor was quite serious at the time.

So ... CAHS is good, don't get me wrong. I went to Saint Charles Preparatory High School; an all male academy of about 250 students 9-12 when I was there. Tuition cost about $4k a student back then, which came out of my pocket as opposed to my parents. It was rough for me.

I was told at the time that Saint Charles was nationally ranked in the top 100 high schools in America. I have never been arsed to verify this, but that it what I was told, true or not.

I spent many a sleepless nights in high school; I was not partying. Agree with it or not, they taught me how to work; they taught me how to work my ass off; they taught me how to function when I was beyond the point of exhaustion. Saint Charles actively tries to sink every student that walks into the doors. It's up to the student to decide if he wants to pull through it or give up. During my time incoming freshman classes were about 140; graduating was about 70; they consistently sank half the students and still do.

Now, to this day I don't agree with their approach. The one thing that I will agree with is that they taught me the value of hard work and never giving up, dispute all odds. Take this on what ever level you want; academically or the fact that I foot a 16k bill as a high school student.

To come full circle ... I know the value of a dollar as do you. I have busted my ass for absolutely everything I have earned, as have you. That's why these government programs eat at me so. And it's really not the program; it's the abuser.

As an aside, my mother was a teacher. So I hear you on the issues surrounding that. About the only thing I have to say to that is the education system in this country is about as screwed up as the medical system. The fact that the teachers and educators of our country's future are not valued is just sick. As the ones that hold the future of this country in your hands, you just need to fucking be paid for what you do. Honestly. Much respect to you. I could never do what you do on a daily basis.

[swingdjted]

Originally Posted by fc*uk

"How do you claim eastmoor killed 50 students?"

I made that up. Honestly. However, when I was a teen in columbus, there were a lot of conflicting gangs that met up at eastmoor; and a lot of people were killed in that related gang violence; or simply because you were white in a black area. I will honestly admit I pulled the 50 out of my ass to make a point; the truth is the gang activity/racial crimes at Eastmoor was quite serious at the time.

Luckily for Black-White, this is getting much better nationwide. Unfortunately there is a new racism between Whites and Latinos on the rise though which could become as bad or worse than what history sees between Blacks and Whites.

So ... CAHS is good, don't get me wrong. I went to Saint Charles Preparatory High School; an all male academy of about 250 students 9-12 when I was there. Tuition cost about $4k a student back then, which came out of my pocket as opposed to my parents. It was rough for me.

I was told at the time that Saint Charles was nationally ranked in the top 100 high schools in America. I have never been arsed to verify this, but that it what I was told, true or not.

I spent many a sleepless nights in high school; I was not partying. Agree with it or not, they taught me how to work; they taught me how to work my ass off; they taught me how to function when I was beyond the point of exhaustion. Saint Charles actively tries to sink every student that walks into the doors. It's up to the student to decide if he wants to pull through it or give up. During my time incoming freshman classes were about 140; graduating was about 70; they consistently sank half the students and still do.

A high school that graduates 50% of incoming students being ranked in the top 100 shows a fundamental flaw in the ranking system. This is not me attacking the claim, it's me attacking the ranking system. Eastmoor likely graduates better than 50%, not to say their graduates will do better, but still...

You mention a very important realization - In many ways "It's up to the student to decide if he wants to pull through it or give up." Public school officials get pushed out of their jobs for making such statements, even though it's part of the truth. You had a work ethic. You came with it, they used it to help you and they built upon it.

[quote]Now, to this day I don't agree with their approach. The one thing that I will agree with is that they taught me the value of hard work and never giving up, dispute all odds. Take this on what ever level you want; academically or the fact that I foot a 16k bill as a high school student.[quote]

You taught yourself the value of hard work, with some of their help. They mostly just provided you with carefully selected work. If they were better at teaching the work ethic, they'd graduate better than half.

To come full circle ... I know the value of a dollar as do you. I have busted my ass for absolutely everything I have earned, as have you. That's why these government programs eat at me so. And it's really not the program; it's the abuser.

That last sentence of yours is probably the most important sentence in this whole long thread. It's the abuser that causes the problem, just like the gun activists say it's the killer, not the gun which is the problem, which I also agree with. This is why I argue so much for fixing most programs to reduce abuse, while only trashing a few programs that are beyond fixable or no longer necessary.

As an aside, my mother was a teacher.

She's got the sickness. God bless her. You probably learned as much or more at home than you did at school, both about academic topics and non. Most of those Eastmoor students had nothing like that going for them.

So I hear you on the issues surrounding that. About the only thing I have to say to that is the education system in this country is about as screwed up as the medical system. The fact that the teachers and educators of our country's future are not valued is just sick. As the ones that hold the future of this country in your hands, you just need to fucking be paid for what you do. Honestly. Much respect to you. I could never do what you do on a daily basis.

If I made enough to maintain safe, stable, middle class living conditions on my own single income while raising 2-3 kids and paying off school debt, I would feel fine with that. I'm not really looking to get rich, but I wish a full-time masters degree job didn't need a second income to keep a family financially stable. Luckily my wife has the same job I do minus all the extra-curricular stuff, so we're fine.

[chrismarklee]

I see social internet connections taking the personal aspect out of the social process.

I just do not see how this increases a societies values

Chris