Old 4th April 2012, 19:56   #1
calldon
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BMI is coming after Shoutcast internet stations

I just received an e-mail from recent college graduate, Alaina Kell, Manager, New Media Business Development with BMI telling me I need a BMI license. I play music, play no commercials, receive no money, receive no donations, have no income from the station at all.

So they want $$ for playing the music.

This music is unavailable on radio anywhere except for one XM satellite channel and about three terrestrial stations. It is a hobby because I love the music. I guess it's time to pay LoudCity and add a PayPal donation link. But even LoudCity does not have a link for zero income. They assume you are making money.

Most of the artists and song writers whose music is on my station will never see a penny from the BMI royalties from my station. As a musician, I know it is truly a racket, RICO, an extortion scheme. I have been recording for over 30 years and have never received one cent from them or any other royalty collecting agency.

Just thought I would let everyone know that BMI must be going through the Shoutcast web site trying to drum up money to pay people like the recently graduated college girl who contacted me. She is working at BMI while trying to drum up her desired career as a performing artist, a singer.

OK, that's my rant,

Don
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Old 10th April 2012, 21:31   #2
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Sound Exchange is doing the same thing.

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Old 10th April 2012, 23:00   #3
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I already signed up with LoudCity but I still have to rework my web site. I have played this music so far not accepting donations or playing a single commercial. I just wanted to play the music for the enjoyment of it. But I am now going to add a PayPal link because my little hobby station is gonna eventually cost some $$ monthly for my 50 listeners to enjoy. Fifty listeners max, no commercials, no income and they want me to pay up.

i would think they would go after the Shoutcast mega-broadcasters with their thousands of listeners. That would certainly bring them more income than a little piddly-ass station like mine. But the girl who wrote me the e-mail is a wannbe star, trying to make it big in the music industry in Nashville. I already checked her out. And she quotes scripture on her web site every other sentence.

So I guess I will now accept donations to cover some of the costs. Feel free to stop by and donate a car or trust fund.

D*
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Old 19th April 2012, 05:18   #4
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This news comes right after Serious XM is trying to sue the RIAA for extortion and overcharging for internet Radio and satellite Radio. I'm keeping an eye on this one.

One solution is to get a FREE shoutcast server if you have no $$ or should I say little. *************.com now has no buffering and does not have to be restarted at midnight. You can stream up to 64K and you get 100 listener slots. I'd recommend broadcasting in AAC+ but Mp3 is OK if you use 22K sample rate. You can go through either http://streamlicensing.com or http://loudcity.com for the royalty license and pay as little as $17/mo. Its the poor folks best choice for a hibby station and again you would be legal.

Loudcaster has a all in one hosting deal but its no longer supporting Shoutcast. Live365 offers incentives for VIP listeners and you can start for as little as $3/mo for 5 standard listeners and unlimited VIP's but they don't support Shoutcast So if Shoutcast is your favorite you would need either streamlicensing.com or Loudcity. I've read where streamlicensing.com will allow you to advertise and your station can be in directories like iTunes and other directories.

Keep an eye on the lawsuit and join the EFF for maybe we can put an end to this sheer madness for Internet Radio is the best way to promote new artists and help the public re discover vintage classics otherwise unknown.

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Old 19th April 2012, 09:41   #5
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I just received an e-mail from recent college graduate, Alaina Kell, Manager, New Media Business Development with BMI telling me I need a BMI license. I play music, play no commercials, receive no money, receive no donations, have no income from the station at all.
I don't think I can post links, but everyone should see the TED Talks on "copyright math" (Youtube watch ? v=GZadCj8O1-0) It's crazy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZadCj8O1-0

It is a racket, and people (in particular, non-US citizens) need to realize it's plutocracy at the highest levels. There's NOTHING anyone can do about it.

These organizations have managed to lobby the US to negotiate for "intellectual protection" not just in the US, but to pressure other countries as well via trade agreements.

If history is any guide, they will ALWAYS get their way within US borders, it's hopeless to even try saving the US, but, it's NOT too late to warn other countries about US influence and the so-called "intellectual property rights" that the US is actively trying to cram down their throats.

Citizens in other countries are probably in a better position to prevent these plutocrats from ruining their country, too.
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Old 19th April 2012, 21:00   #6
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You know in 2003 when all of the ordeal about p2p started and the death of Napster happened I TRIED to get folks to lobby, protest, and vote these folks out of office. Instead of fighting for our rights when Napster wanted to pay the artists through the ads folks just swarmed to Kazaa and WinMX. When those services were tore down instead of fighting they went to Gnutilla and BT. What does this to do with Internet Radio? EVERYTHING. Just like a child you give an inch, they want the whole mile. Its time we treat the copyright mafia like children and fight. If say 60 million folks started Shoutcast stations and went through offshore servers they would really have a tizzy. Plus VPN's as well but that won't happen.

By the way the host I was talking about again was f r e e s h o u t c a s t . c o m for the host. They are actually pretty good.

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Old 20th April 2012, 03:10   #7
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What does this to do with Internet Radio? EVERYTHING. Just like a child you give an inch, they want the whole mile. Its time we treat the copyright mafia like children and fight. If say 60 million folks started Shoutcast stations and went through offshore servers they would really have a tizzy. Plus VPN's as well but that won't happen.

By the way the host I was talking about again was f r e e s h o u t c a s t . c o m for the host. They are actually pretty good.
I'd still say it's pretty pointless. BMI, SoundExchange, etc, etc, will always win.

Might be amusing if thousands of shoutcast servers were set up, boradcasting straight commercials, all the while putting commercial song tags in their stream, requiring these folks to actually listen to a stream of commercials before discovering the stream isn't really running anything they can be sued for.

But at the same time, this would make a big mess of the directrory, and it'd be impossible for regular listeners to find good stations. (If only there were a way to detect a lobby-monger listener and direct them to the 24-7 infomercial stream :-) )

The US is not a representative democracy. Unless you can put money in their pockets, it's a pointless fight.. all the protests won't matter. The best you can hope for is someone who placates you. The worst you can hope for is a candidate that exploits these protests to serve the money interests by pitting US citizens against each other.

This year, if they call (doesn't matter which party) tell them that "your candidate doesn't care what people who earn under 5 million want, therefore I don't care what your candidate wants". (sure, go ahead and vote, if it makes you feel better.. it won't make a difference)

We SHOULD be warning citizens in OTHER countries that the US is coming after them, mostly via trade agreements. They HAVE to go after other countries, the US is pretty much already consumed, it's outside the US where all the money opportunities are these days... and they'll get it, if the people of these nations sit by and watch the US move in on their officials.

But, as far as the US is concerned, "She's dead, Jim".
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Old 25th April 2012, 06:08   #8
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You already can block the RIAA and their ilk. Its called PEER BLOCK. If you run your own Shoutcast server you can install PEER BLOCK and it has all the ip's of the RIAA and their mafia. When they try and tune in to your station it will say "server unavailable" and they won't know you are actually streaming. You will however need a T3 internet connection to run your own server however. However Peer Block is your best friend for those running Shoutcast servers.

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Old 25th April 2012, 11:51   #9
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You already can block the RIAA and their ilk. Its called PEER BLOCK. If you run your own Shoutcast server you can install PEER BLOCK and it has all the ip's of the RIAA and their mafia. When they try and tune in to your station it will say "server unavailable" and they won't know you are actually streaming. You will however need a T3 internet connection to run your own server however. However Peer Block is your best friend for those running Shoutcast servers.
I should think that would be pretty dangerous to rely on, but amusing to think about.

You'd almost certainly be inviting trouble, even if you are legal... annoy off the king and you end up on the rack. They'd probably sneak in some legislation pertaining to font sizes and then nail you for that.

Peercast is an interesting resource though, I looked into them. They get their list upstream (iblocklist?), so you wouldn't really need peer cast software.

OpenBSD's PF package has "tables" so if you knew their IP's, you could forward all the IP's in a table to another instance of shoutcast, 24/7 random notes played by a common house cat on the majestic hammond organ. :-)

I think this is more fun to think about, than to actually do.

But that is a neat resource, thanks for making me aware of it! I could see it being useful for a lot of other things.. maybe there's a list of script kiddies.
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Old 25th April 2012, 12:46   #10
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I smell FUD

... but I could be wrong
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Old 2nd May 2012, 22:10   #11
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If a script could be made to auto ban the ip's in the list that could also work. I don't think they are gonna go after all the stations anyways. If your server is in say Europe their laws are different (no matter what the USA wants people to think) and the USA does not govern the entire world either this is why some torrent sites won't die and the reason for sites away from the USA that allow FREE streaming of music.

I've been reading on how Serious XM is sewing the RIAA and their ilk for anti trust issues so this is probably going to be a case where it will just go away again as the artists that are played on amateur Shoutcast Radio stations are not always the popular now day Rock anyway. So the new artists don't benefit on say stations that only play Progressive Rock from 1967-1984 before corporate Radio was plagued by Top40, Classic (Hits not deep tracks) and the inevitable Rap music shoved down our throats.

So I say if you have a server away from the USA and broadcast your safe especially if you use a VPN such as BTGuard. Just use moneycards and not a real CC as you can put the moneycard in any name you want as long as the host gets paid your good to go.

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Old 15th May 2012, 19:55   #12
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So I say if you have a server away from the USA and broadcast your safe especially if you use a VPN such as BTGuard.
That's what I'm looking for, a server away from the USA. Ole Alaina Kell has been after me about my web page, because it was using a pop-up link to the LoudCity web site.

Obviously, her new husband is not banging her enough at home and she has no kids so she has to pick on tiny, little web stations. And she probably has a nice case of OCD thinking she can move-up in the company.

Sheese

D*
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Old 15th May 2012, 19:59   #13
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I just received what is hopefully the final e-mail from Alaina. She is finally satisfied that I will change that one line of code in my web site. Seems she is wasting alot of time and energy on a station with no financial support, less than 50 listeners at any given time, with no sponsors, that plays no commercials, etc. But maybe my $50 monthly to LoudCity will help her pay for her recent wedding.

D*
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Old 20th May 2012, 05:31   #14
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What? Seriously your Loudcity station (Licensed and legal)? Wow does this sound like SWcast all over again? I mean we pay subscription fees for these companies and then these little trolls think they are not getting enough royalties, Demand that we only launch our station from the Loudcity, Loudcaster pages. Royalties are paid regardless and what is more silly is that shoutcast search engines have direct launch links. So why then do they want to worry about the little guy with less than 50 listeners at one time? Silly may as well use servers away from the USA and forget the whole mess since now that Droids and PS3's can listen through sites like p s 3 r a d i o . c o m it really makes no sense to waste time worrying about this crap only to be bullied any ole way.

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Old 20th May 2012, 05:46   #15
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What? I mean we pay subscription fees for these companies and then these little trolls think they are not getting enough royalties, Demand that we only launch our station from the Loudcity, Loudcaster pages.
I told her I would change it when I got the chance. I made it sound really pitiful, which is pretty close to the truth. We have a great, professional sound but the station staff is really small. Everybody is paid except me. We don't play commercials, we don't have sponsors or advertisers, we don't have income, etc. She doesn't care.

So when I make the change she is gonna come after me again. The station web site is one page on purpose, no additional pages. The url is masked because it piggybacks on my personal web site to save me money. The problem is (she will say) when it goes to the LoudCity page, it will still be masked, which I can't prevent. She will then tell me it has to be unmasked, which means I have to pay for another additional web host so I can unmask the web site for her. What a picky bitch, trying to climb the corporate ladder. I'm thinking doesn't she have time to deal with stations with 5000 or 8000 listeners, instead of me with no advertisers and 50 listeners.

But the amazing thing is, my fifty slots are now almost full, almost 24/7. People love the music and are finding the station, even with Pandora and all the competition. I hope she has fun picking on the little guy to make her quota!!
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Old 20th May 2012, 10:38   #16
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Welcome to the strange way that these guys do business. For years they have been reliant on the whole website source model. Which is, quite frankly, a terrible way to determine ownership.

Just an example, say you iFrame it in, the address bar shows your address but the source is still loudcity. They don't care. They want to see your links on a page that has loudcity's address on it. I think it is a waste of time to argue with them. Besides who really cares that they bounce outside your domain to listen. Ran a station for years this way and none of my listeners complained and the funny thing is by their model I owed no writer's royalties.

Just bounced people to shoutcast and they tuned in there. The only entity that does it correctly is SoundExchange.
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Old 22nd May 2012, 23:07   #17
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ok, i've received two letters from SoundExchange now and I'm going to have to do something about it. After doing some research and reading through the LoudCity website I must say that I'm a little bummed that I have to remove my custom media player from my website. However, if the deal with SoundExchange is that the music has to launch from an 'approved' page then why wouldn't you just direct your listeners to the Shoutcast or TuneIn Radio websites? Am I missing something here? What benefit are you getting from LoudCity that warrants paying them $30+ month? I'm just going to design a nice little button to take people to my Shoutcast page.

I'm going to call SoundExchange tomorrow to clarify, but is it not acceptable to even embed the Shoutcast media player on to my website?
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Old 22nd May 2012, 23:29   #18
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I've wondered about that too, for example, would shoutcast or tunein be on the hook, since they embed the player on their website?

If I made a gadget that let other people put my stream on their blog/website/etc.. would they be in jeapordy? How can they afford to operate? why isn't soundexchange going after those guys?

What I find is that of the few listeners I get now.. even fewer of them have ever even been to my website. It's usually from a directory.

As far as loudcast, they really should just do a reverse proxy or at least give you the option of uploading an HTML page.

People get confused and think you're part of someone elses network. I wonder how many complaints loudcity gets from people who just assume loudcity owns all the stations.
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Old 22nd May 2012, 23:59   #19
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From what I read on the LoudCity forum, Shoutcast and TuneIn have their own licenses so directing listeners to those sites would put us in compliance.

I believe that if someone posts your gadget on their website then THEY would be the one responsible. Based on the language over at LoudCity it's the site where the media player launches that seems to be the defining item, which is kinda lame.

I agree with the statement that most listeners don't come from my website. Most come from iTunes and TuneIn, but I still hate to take my media player off my site because I think it looks pretty. I suppose it's better than paying SoundExchange $500/year or LoudCity $30/month when I can just direct to Shoutcast or TuneIn. I'll let you know what SoundExchange says about embedding the Shoutcast media player. I don't think they will approve of that, but it wouldn't hurt to ask.

If you care to take a look, I'm at http://chromewavesradio.com
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Old 23rd May 2012, 06:13   #20
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Just to clarify, Tunein and SHOUTcast.com et al are search engines, so they do not pay licenses for your royalties. They are covered by safe harbors in the DMCA since they do not own nor do they broadcast your content. You are solely responsible for the content you broadcast.

That said, the linking of the content provider to the search engine provides a wrinkle in their plan to take action on a website owner. The only one who won't look at this as technically compliant would be SoundExchange.

Please see http://www.shoutcast.com/tos and scroll down to:
15. Procedure For Making Claims Of Copyright Infringement.

If they can't find you they can do a DMCA take down notice for your listing. Then you will have no links. I still think this is a flawed way to do this, but it's their rules.

However if you have a player on your website or a link causes a player to play copyrighted material, then you are on the hook. The safest route is to go with the third party complacency agencies. Suck it up and link to them and your listeners won't be that put off by it.

Just so we are clear, nothing I say should be construed as legal advice. I am not a lawyer. Hire a competent intellectual property right lawyer if you have questions about doing this.
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Old 23rd May 2012, 13:08   #21
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Jay is correct. DMCA Safe Harbor means Shoutcast, TuneIn etc can list your stream. They do not pay royalties for you. You are responsible for those fees.

Services like LoudCity pay your royalties - which brings you into compliance, however many of the Performance Rights Organizations (BMI, SESAC, ASCAP, SX) require that the stream be launched from the domain that holds the license and pays the royalties. This is why LoudCity has launch rules.

Ignoring SoundExchange isn't advisable. Ignoring any legal notice is at your peril. Some of these places not only issue takedown notices, they can also sue you. Penalties are stiff - up to $100,000 per song per listener.
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Old 23rd May 2012, 19:48   #22
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I just spoke to SoundExchange and I'm all sorts of confused. As we all know, it's a freaking sham...I was under the presumption that the media player on my website was what was causing the issue with SoundExchange, but the actual problem is the simple fact that the stream exists so some form of royalty payment is required and Shoutcast and TuneIn are NOT qualifying entities to satisfy the royalty requirement. It looks like I'll be looking into LoudCity and Live365, but I still think it's completely asinine to not allow my own media player on my website (now I'm just venting). Who cares where the stream is originating from? If the number of listeners and the artists played are still being recorded through LoudCity regardless of how a listener is accessing a stream, who cares where it's sourced from?!

Jesus, this is lame.
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Old 23rd May 2012, 21:29   #23
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Yup, this is, as I said, the nature of the way royalty agencies attach ownership. With the exception of SoundExchange, they only look at the website owner not the actual stream itself. I wish they would make a greater effort to understand the technology but it doesn't matter to them.
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Old 23rd May 2012, 22:24   #24
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Remember, it's not just SoundExchange that expects money. They collect for the labels, and artists/performers. Royalties are also due for composition (the song music itself), lyrics etc. Those royalties are collected by places like SESAC, BMI, ASCAP.

The domain rule makes sense when you think about it - they track domains they have licensed, probably so that at a glance they can tell if you're paying or not.

If your website is streaming music, and your domain/URL isn't on their books, they come after you. Just like they come after bars, cafes and other business establishments who play music to customers without licensing.

When licensing directly, you can run your station on your own site without worries. But between ASCAP, SESAC, BMI and SoundExchange, the fees do add up a bit - and they don't scale well. The more successful you are, the higher your rates - you're basically punished for success. Get too big, and you're bankrupt.
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Old 24th May 2012, 03:30   #25
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This is where I disagree, making a website pay for royalties is like making a bar owner pay the royalty for playing a radio station in his bar but not charging the station itself. I can run an internet radio station and just distribute the address via word of mouth and never have to worry about royalties. SoundExchange is the only royalty collector that looks at the direct source.
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Old 31st May 2012, 02:02   #26
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I went through wavestream that was on the Broadcast Now! tab. Obviously they don't take care of Royalties. If I want to be more legal, I need to go through LoudCity o something similar, correct? Or do I need them in addition to Wavestream?
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Old 31st May 2012, 04:00   #27
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To be legal since Wavestream is a USA based stream host and our not using a VPN then yes you need Loudcity, http://streamlicensing.com. Loudcaster does not support Shoutcast and neither does Live365.

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Old 31st May 2012, 08:52   #28
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eh? Wavestreaming is UK based, not USA based.

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Old 3rd June 2012, 00:51   #29
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In that case you need a UK based VPN and then broadcast to Wavestreaming that way. If your Originating from the UK and streaming to the UK then you can go by their rules. Web Radio World is a nice place too and they even cover the royalties for the UK. The UK is far more relaxed than the USA is that is why you see more stations out of the UK and in the UK many have their own stream player on their sites. Just try Cyberghose and make it come from the UK for as long as your stream "originates" from the uk (Your IP Address) then your set. In fact did you know those who are in the USA, buy servers outside the USA and then try broadcasting to a license provider is still not legal? Yup its true I have done the research on that one. This is how Radionomy is getting around the loop hole. Knowledge is POWER!!

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Old 4th June 2012, 04:37   #30
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Thanks everyone! The learning curve is a little steeper than I expected. It's still not too steep, though.
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Old 6th June 2012, 00:48   #31
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