Which Audio Format Works Best?

[Aminifu]

Initial Report

Hey guys, I decided to start with flac and wavpack (ape for later due to possible issues with tagging, seeking, and displaying embedded art). I used the following tools to keep each part of the process separate for now.

Exact Audio Copy (EAC) v1.0 beta 3 - to rip source to wav
FLAC Frontend v1.7.0.1 with encoder v1.2.1 - to encode wav to flac
WavPack Frontend v2.0.0.0 wirh encoder v4.60.1 - to encode wav to wv
MP3Tag v2.50 - to edit tags including embedding art
TagScanner v5.1 - to edit tags including embedding art

Rip & Encode Results:

Test song ripped from CD to wav - 53.4 MB@1411Kbps
WAV to FLAC file - 34.2 MB@905Kbps average (highest compression)
WAV to WV file - 34.2 MB@905Kbps average (highest compression)
Downloaded MP3 of same song - 3.64MB@96Kbps

WA Results:

I installed the WavPack Decoder v2.8a, since there is no official support for wavpack. But the wavpack file extension "wv" is listed in the file types preferences that can be associated with WA (and showed up as associated in Win Explorer). Even so, the wavpack file would not play without the decoder installed.

Audio Quality

All 4 files sounded equally good (even the low grade mp3!) with all WA controls (DSP, equalizer, volume, upsampling and upmixing) set the same. The volume of the mp3 sounded a little lower because I had used "MP3 Gain" to level the original file because it was clipping at a few places.

My next test files will have more audio variation, so that I can hopefully hear an oblivious difference between the lossless and mp3 formats. After all, that is the whole point of this exercise.

During playback WA displayed the average frequency for the flac file, but it displayed the changing frequencies for the wavpack file. I attribute this to the decoders. Seeking and playback start was also not an issue, no noticeable delays with either file type.

Tagging

WA's auto-tagging feature was able to tag both the flac and wavpack files without any problems. MP3Tag was able to edit tags in both the flac and wv files and embed art in the flac file, but I could not get it to embed art in the wv file. I attribute this to me not knowing how to do it (more time with the instructions needed). I was able to use TagScanner (easier for me to figure out) to edit tags and embed art in both file types.

Eye Candy

WA displayed the external and/or embedded art for all file types. I should note that Win Explorer does not show the embedded art for flac and wv files, but it does for mp3s. I'm using a WA icon pack for use with Win Explorer and it also works appropriately.

Conclusions:

It's too early to decide for sure (still need to test Replay Gain), but FLAC and WavPack seem equally good for use with WA. Lack of official WA support for wavpack is not a major problem and it's nice to see the changing frequencies during playback (like with a variable rate encoded mp3).

[Aminifu]

More Info

The version of the flac encoder I'm using is v1.1.4a not v1.2.1 as stated in post #41. Does anyone know what version WA uses and what the latest version is? I'm getting conflicting results from the WEB.

I figured out MP3Tag (very easy, once you know how). I'm able to use it to embed art with both formats. MP3Tag also indicates that the flac file was encoded at a fixed frequency rate and the wavpack file was encoded with a variable frequency rate. I thought they both were variable rate files because the WA tag editor indicates that both file frequency rates are averages.

I've made a few more flac and wavpack conversions and still don't hear the big improvement in audio quality over mp3. I guess my sound card and/or speaker system is blocking it. I'll make some more files and see if my mobo's sound chip and my 5.1 headphones let me hear the difference.

[DrO]

Winamp uses v1.2.1 and has done since it was released however many years ago the 1.2.1 FLAC release happened.

-daz

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by DrO

Winamp uses v1.2.1 and has done since it was released however many years ago the 1.2.1 FLAC release happened.

-daz

Thanks for that confirmation. My research shows the last flac upgrades were done in 2007. According to mp3tag, the encoder in the command line tool (in the flac-1.2.1b.exe package) and in the dll file that WA uses are the same one, libFLAC 1.2.1.20070917. The frontend app that comes with the command line tool adds a comment to the encoded file that says the encoder is version 1.1.4a. It appears the frontend app is wrong.

In addition, the wavpack decoder v2.8.1 in the WA essentials pack is a newer version than what's available on line (version 2.8a). Going forward, I will be using the version from the essentials pack.

[Aminifu]

Final Report

FLAC and WavPack work equally well with the Replay Gain support in WA (with all 4 amplification modes). Leveling during playback to reduce volume differences between tracks from different CDs is a 'must have' feature for me.

It was a hard choice, especially with WA supplying total 'out of the box' support for flac, but I've decided to use wavpack for my lossless encoding format. The only wavpack feature not support within WA, or by a 3rd party plug-in recommended by WA, is the encoding. Since I use EAC for ripping, it is an easy option to have it invoke the 3rd party wavpack command line encoder after creating the wav files.

The deciding factor came down to tagging (flac and wavpack are pretty much equal in all my other areas of concern). FLAC uses Vorbis tags and wavpack uses ID3 tags. From what I've read, Vorbis tags could cause trouble if you're not careful with how you use them.

If one tag editor is used there should not be any problems, but I use WA's manual and auto-tagging editor (supported by Gracenote) and mp3tag and tagscanner (both supported by multiple metadata databases), so there is the potential for a screw up. For example, I have seen where 2 of the 3 tag editors will show the contents of the BPM tag field within a file and the 3rd doesn't or 1 of the 3 shows it and the other 2 don't. Fortunately, the WA tag editor always shows when a BPM tag is populated.

The following info on Vorbis tags (which sums up what I've read) is from a Wikipedia article (link below):

"Any tag name is allowed, and there is no format that the data values must be in. This is in contrast to the ID3 format used for MP3s, which is highly structured. Field names are also permitted to be used more than once. It is encouraged to use this feature to support multiple values, for example two ARTIST=... fields to list both artists of a single composition."

"There are no provisions for storing binary data in Vorbis comments. This is by design; they are intended to be used as part of a container format such as Ogg, and any additional binary data should be encoded into the container as a stream. The exception to this, by popular request, is a proposal to incorporate cover art into a Vorbis comment."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorbis_comment

[Aminifu]

Final Note on Audio Quality

Switching from my sound card to my mobo's sound chip made everything sound bad at a decent volume. Too much noise is introduced. I normally use the mobo's sound chip and headphones when cuing songs in my DJ app (at the lower volume, the sound is ok for that) and use the sound card and speakers for playing the songs.

I've tried a number of songs (various genres) and don't hear a significant difference between these lossless formats and the mp3 format. I see a big difference in the spectrum analyzer, just don't hear it. This is disappointing, I must have 'tin' ears.

Anyway, it renews my faith in mp3 being a high quality lossy format (when used properly). Hopefully the lossless sound will be better when I upgrade my sound card and speakers.

[MrSinatra]

Originally Posted by Aminifu

I figured out MP3Tag (very easy, once you know how). I'm able to use it to embed art with both formats. MP3Tag also indicates that the flac file was encoded at a fixed frequency rate and the wavpack file was encoded with a variable frequency rate. I thought they both were variable rate files because the WA tag editor indicates that both file frequency rates are averages.

i'm not following you here at all. variable bit rates are one thing, but variable frequency rates?

any CD source will NOT have a variable freq rate. it will always be 44.1

so if you could explain what you mean above, i'd appreciate it, b/c i'm not following it at all.

also, i don't really understand why you would prefer id3 over vorbis for tags?

i think vorbis is superior and more flexible, much more of a wysiwyg standard. of course, since i primarily use mp3, i'm stuck with id3, so i can see where one would want all their tags to be id3, but honestly "mapping" vorbis comments to sync with id3 tags in mp3tag isn't that hard. tag standards didn't influence my decision in mp3 and FLAC as my formats of choice.

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by MrSinatra

i'm not following you here at all. variable bit rates are one thing, but variable frequency rates?

any CD source will NOT have a variable freq rate. it will always be 44.1

so if you could explain what you mean above, i'd appreciate it, b/c i'm not following it at all.

I did not study all the technical details of how the lossless formats do what they do. I was more interested in the bottom line. I assume wavpack varies the frequency rate to help with the compression. This could be totally off base since flac achieves the same compression rates with a fixed frequency.

Look at one of your flac files in the WA tag editor on the right side of the 'Basic Info' tab under 'Format Info'. It will show the flac frequency and say it's an average. Don't know why, since this frequency is fixed.

Yes, CDs also use a fixed frequency and the wav files ripped from them do too.

I suggest you use the tools indicated (in previous posts) to make a wavpack file and see for yourself. If you decide to do this, note that wavpack can also make a lossy conversion, so be sure to choose the right option for lossless.

Originally Posted by MrSinatra

also, i don't really understand why you would prefer id3 over vorbis for tags?

I'm concerned about the potential for problems. Since vorbis allows the same tag field name to be used more than once, what would WA do if faced with 2 'artist' tags in a file? Would it use the 1st for artist and ignore the 2nd, or use the 1st for artist and the 2nd for albumartist, or iqnore them both? I don't know and would want to avoid the situation, in any case.

ID3 is structured to avoid such things. It is more widely used and supported (de facto standard?). I agree that vorbis is more flexible (inherently so), but I don't think it is superior.

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by Aminifu

I suggest you use the tools indicated (in previous posts) to make a wavpack file and see for yourself. If you decide to do this, note that wavpack can also make a lossy conversion, so be sure to choose the right option for lossless.

Sorry, for asking you (and interested others) to read thru prior posts. The relevant links are below.

EAC

http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/en/inde...rces/download/

Wavpack frontend with encoder. The decoder is in the latest WA essentials pack

http://members.home.nl/w.speek/wavpack.htm
http://www.winamp.com/plugin/winamp-...k-v5-58/150126

MP3Tag is now at version 2.51

http://www.mp3tag.de/en/

[MrSinatra]

Originally Posted by Aminifu

I did not study all the technical details of how the lossless formats do what they do. I was more interested in the bottom line. I assume wavpack varies the frequency rate to help with the compression. This could be totally off base since flac achieves the same compression rates with a fixed frequency.

Look at one of your flac files in the WA tag editor on the right side of the 'Basic Info' tab under 'Format Info'. It will show the flac frequency and say it's an average. Don't know why, since this frequency is fixed.

i see an "average bitrate" not an avg freq.

i know nothing about wavpack, but intuitively speaking it should not be adjusting the freq on playback. if its lossless, it should mirror the source.

Originally Posted by Aminifu

Yes, CDs also use a fixed frequency and the wav files ripped from them do too.

I suggest you use the tools indicated (in previous posts) to make a wavpack file and see for yourself. If you decide to do this, note that wavpack can also make a lossy conversion, so be sure to choose the right option for lossless.

i'll see if i can find a lossless wavpack on the net, but since i don't use this format, i don't have much motivation to investigate it.

Originally Posted by Aminifu

I'm concerned about the potential for problems. Since vorbis allows the same tag field name to be used more than once, what would WA do if faced with 2 'artist' tags in a file? Would it use the 1st for artist and ignore the 2nd, or use the 1st for artist and the 2nd for albumartist, or iqnore them both? I don't know and would want to avoid the situation, in any case.

thats actually more of a winamp failing than a vorbis failing. and vorbis makes it obvious if that condition exists, ie. multiple fields for whatever. its easier to see in what is basically a plain text tag standard. id3 ALSO supports multiple fields, and winamp can/does hide that as well. its not something only vorbis does.

in mp3tag, you use a // or something like that to enter and divide data into mutiple frames.

apple does this too, they "hide" the soundcheck info in the comment field/frame, so a COMM frame may look blank, but in fact the soundcheck info is in the second entry.

Originally Posted by Aminifu

ID3 is structured to avoid such things. It is more widely used and supported (de facto standard?). I agree that vorbis is more flexible (inherently so), but I don't think it is superior.

its done in id3, so i don't know why you say that.

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by MrSinatra

tag standards didn't influence my decision in mp3 and FLAC as my formats of choice.

Sorry to have split my response to your post (#47) over 3 posts (#48, #49 and this one). I kept being interrupted (phone calls, chores for the wife, etc).

What did influence you to chose flac (I read your earlier posts #27 and #33), other than WA providing total support for it and it has had a head start on other formats? Ease of use and popularity are good points, but they are not high on my list when looking for the best product for my system and my uses. I'm also not a big fan of WA's implementation of RG, but since I must have volume leveling, it's better than nothing.

I understood what you said earlier (mostly knocks on other formats) and if you care not to expand or there is nothing more to add, it's ok. Except for wavpack, flac seems to handily beat it's competition.

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by MrSinatra

i see an "average bitrate" not an avg freq.

i know nothing about wavpack, but intuitively speaking it should not be adjusting the freq on playback. if its lossless, it should mirror the source.

You are right, the frequency is not adjusted. Sloppy use of terminology on my part, thank you for pointing that out. Flac uses a fixed bitrate (WA should not be reporting it as an average) and wavpack uses a variable bitrate (so reporting it as an average is proper).

Originally Posted by MrSinatra

i'll see if i can find a lossless wavpack on the net, but since i don't use this format, i don't have much motivation to investigate it.

A link is provided in the post above yours. Sometimes it's good to investigate and sometimes not. I came into this with an open mind and no preconceived notions, so it was easier for me to look at what's out there.

Originally Posted by MrSinatra

its done in id3, so i don't know why you say that.

I wasn't aware that multiple use within a file of the exact same field names are allowed by the ID3 spec. Splitting a field into multiple frames is not the same thing, imo. If ID3 allows multiple tags of exactly the same name, then it is no better than vorbis in this respect. I think you will agree that the implementation of 'comment' tags is a special case (and problem) for all tagging standards.

The implementation (and abuse) of any tagging standard will vary. I still think the use of ID3 tags would be more consistent over various taggers.

Other than potential tagging issues (which could all be in my mind), I see no difference between flac and wavpack, other than how easy WA makes it to use them.

[MrSinatra]

i use mp3 b/c it is so universal and sounds good to me, and for the same reason i use FLAC. any of the so called drawbacks to either that others have cited are not at all pertinent to what i consider important. for instance, APE might compress a bit better at times, but thats not worth using it over FLAC to me.

no volume leveling system is perfect, but RG does the job. i don't know of a better system.

[MrSinatra]

Originally Posted by Aminifu

You are right, the frequency is not adjusted. Sloppy use of terminology on my part, thank you for pointing that out. Flac uses a fixed bitrate (WA should not be reporting it as an average) and wavpack uses a variable bitrate (so reporting it as an average is proper).

i can't really speak to this, but i'm sure DrO or Egg or someone can explain it.

Originally Posted by Aminifu

I wasn't aware that multiple use within a file of the exact same field names are allowed by the ID3 spec.

i don't know if the spec allows it or not, but lots of apps do it and make use of it, (but not winamp).

Originally Posted by Aminifu

Splitting a field into multiple frames is not the same thing, imo.

not the same thing as what? careful of the terminology here as well.

Originally Posted by Aminifu

If ID3 allows multiple tags of exactly the same name, then it is no better than vorbis in this respect. I think you will agree that the implementation of 'comment' tags is a special case (and problem) for all tagging standards.

i just used COMM to demonstrate how itunes does it. but you can have multiple TPE1, TPE2, etc frames. now, to be clear, i am not an expert in this, i don't know everything about it, but there are basically two ways to have say, two artists listed:

1. use a separator character that is understood to be such, like a semi colon. that isn't what we are talking about here. (fyi: winamp doesn't support this either)
2. use "a technique" where one frame is seen as two.

this is what mp3tag does when using // (or whatever). does it result in two TPE1 frames/fields? well, it does for the software that understands the technique. the reality may be one TPE1 frame thats "hacked" but if that hack is a recognized de facto standard, (and i posit anything mp3tag supports is), then whats the difference?

thats why i like vorbis. its very easy to see, in mp3tag OR in winamp, if you have two, separate, distinct ARTIST fields. it is NOT easy to see in id3.

Originally Posted by Aminifu

The implementation (and abuse) of any tagging standard will vary. I still think the use of ID3 tags would be more consistent over various taggers.

Other than potential tagging issues (which could all be in my mind), I see no difference between flac and wavpack, other than how easy WA makes it to use them.

i don't know if id3 or vorbis is more consistent then the other, but what i do know is vorbis is easier to see and troubleshoot. if there are two artists in vorbis, you will see the ARTIST field listed twice.

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by MrSinatra

i use mp3 b/c it is so universal and sounds good to me, and for the same reason i use FLAC. any of the so called drawbacks to either that others have cited are not at all pertinent to what i consider important. for instance, APE might compress a bit better at times, but thats not worth using it over FLAC to me.

no volume leveling system is perfect, but RG does the job. i don't know of a better system.

I have no argument with what is important to you. I was curious if you had more technical reasons (specific so called drawbacks or advantages).

Subjective or not, sound quality tops my list, it's music after-all. That's followed by in-file tag support (for computerized searching and sorting) and support for volume leveling (other than traditional normalization, if possible). Ease of use/universality would be last on my list (but it would have to work with WA). Compression rates would be next to last, but it's good to see that flac and wavpack are virtually the same in this area.

WA allows artwork to be associated with any file format in various ways, but support for embedded artwork would be a preferred plus for me.

I have no problem with the RG technique. My issue is more with WA's implementation. The built-in spectrum analyzer helps, but a good analyzer plug-in is needed to see when clipping is there or not (other than what is heard when it's bad enough). How much in the red? How wide spread thru the file? Too many songs I download have clipping issues (even some I pay for). The other thing is the default adjustment used for files without RG causes too much volume difference when they are mixed with files with RG. It's always a 'trial and error' chore finding an acceptable value for this. It would be nice (probably not possible) to have an option to scan a playlist's files and automatically set this value to an acceptable album or track level.

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by MrSinatra

not the same thing as what? careful of the terminology here as well.

Not the same thing as using the exact same tag field name multiple times within a file. I think you are having a problem with my grammar, rather than terminology in this case.

In other words having 1 %artist% tag with sub-frames is different than having multiple %artist% tags, imo.

Originally Posted by MrSinatra

thats why i like vorbis. its very easy to see, in mp3tag OR in winamp, if you have two, separate, distinct ARTIST fields. it is NOT easy to see in id3.

i don't know if id3 or vorbis is more consistent then the other, but what i do know is vorbis is easier to see and troubleshoot. if there are two artists in vorbis, you will see the ARTIST field listed twice.

By easy to see in WA, I assume you mean the advanced tab in the tag editor for a flac file. Seeing it is not what I'm concerned about. The Vorbis spec (and maybe ID3's) allows it. By definition a flac file with 2 or more %artist% tags is not in error and there is nothing to troubleshoot.

But what will WA do when faced with 2 or more %artist% tags containing different values in the same file? Which one is used in a playlist title string or stored in the media library database?

Naive me, I had not (until now) expected the issue to come up with ID3. It never has in all the years I've been using mp3s. Broken ID3 %artist% tags --yes, 2 ID3 %artist% tags in the same file for the same ID3 version --never. However, just because I haven't seen it does not mean it can't happen. If it does, allowed by spec or not, my questions as to what will WA do remain the same.

I suppose I could try to figure out how to make a test flac and mp3 and find out for myself what WA will do.

I did not speculate on whether "id3 or vorbis is more consistent then the other". I said I think vorbis is more flexible and the use of ID3 by various taggers would be more consistent. I concede that since I have no experience with vorbis tags, I have no rational reason for that belief.

[MrSinatra]

Originally Posted by Aminifu

I have no argument with what is important to you. I was curious if you had more technical reasons (specific so called drawbacks or advantages).

Subjective or not, sound quality tops my list, it's music after-all. That's followed by in-file tag support (for computerized searching and sorting) and support for volume leveling (other than traditional normalization, if possible). Ease of use/universality would be last on my list (but it would have to work with WA). Compression rates would be next to last, but it's good to see that flac and wavpack are virtually the same in this area.

are my reasons not technical enough? universality is a technical reason imo.

when i look at your list, i don't see why wavpack tops FLAC. most (perhaps all) audiophiles over at squeezebox don't like id3. the only reason i use it at all is b/c this is what works best with mp3s, and again, its universally supported for mp3. but its def not the better solution philosophically.

using 4 char frames to do the data, is not a better solution. consider "album artist." in id3, this is TPE2. or is it? by spec, there is NO "album artist" frame in id3 at all! TPE2 has been de facto hijacked for this purpose, but by spec it should be BAND/ORCHESTRA.

in Vorbis, there are no such complications, its either BAND or ALBUMARTIST and written in plain text. (although ALBUM ARTIST might also apply, but still). and if you want multiple entries, you simply add them. just b/c winamp doesn't support it doesn't mean it isn't a good thing. consider a track that is a duet, a lot of people would rather have:

ARTIST=Frank Sinatra
ARTIST=Bono

than

ARTIST=Frank Sinatra & Bono

especially if their software, like squeezebox server, interprets this correctly. i think foobar does as well, but i'm not certain.

again, i don't use multiple fields in id3 or vorbis, so i'm no expert. frankly, i like the KISS approach of winamp, but that doesn't mean vorbis or id3 methods of doing this are invalid.

also consider all the sort tags and other tags you can add in Vorbis, that you can't in id3, without using a custom TXXX frame. that def won't be as well supported as vorbis will be, if only b/c of the overlap of 2.3 competing with 2.4 in this regard.

most importantly, if you want to see whats really in the vorbis tag, thats plainly visible in mp3tag. its not in id3 in mp3tag, and certainly not in winamp. winamp isn't showing you 4 char codes, or all the frames in a file, or if there are "multiples" of a frame, like multiple and separate TPE1 values, for instance.

another one of the things i don't like about mp3tag, is i can't get it to just show me the 4 char codes of id3. it always interprets them for you. also, it will do that for some values, like ratings by certain apps, including winamp.

Originally Posted by Aminifu

WA allows artwork to be associated with any file format in various ways, but support for embedded artwork would be a preferred plus for me.

both id3 and vorbis support this, although i have had more than a few "bad" tags from id3s i downloaded due to poor embedding technique.

Originally Posted by Aminifu

I have no problem with the RG technique. My issue is more with WA's implementation. The built-in spectrum analyzer helps, but a good analyzer plug-in is needed to see when clipping is there or not (other than what is heard when it's bad enough). How much in the red? How wide spread thru the file? Too many songs I download have clipping issues (even some I pay for).

i'm still not following you, what is it exactly you want to see winamp do to rectify the issue? i use apply gain / prevent clipping and haven't had any issues.

Originally Posted by Aminifu

The other thing is the default adjustment used for files without RG causes too much volume difference when they are mixed with files with RG. It's always a 'trial and error' chore finding an acceptable value for this. It would be nice (probably not possible) to have an option to scan a playlist's files and automatically set this value to an acceptable album or track level.

well, you can always change this if it doesn't work for you, but the solution there imo is to transcode such files to formats that support RG. also, and idk this, but it may be that winamp will store RG info in ML, even if it won't in formats that don't support RG, (like wav). winamp does this with ratings for example.

[MrSinatra]

Originally Posted by Aminifu

Not the same thing as using the exact same tag field name multiple times within a file. I think you are having a problem with my grammar, rather than terminology in this case.

In other words having 1 %artist% tag with sub-frames is different than having multiple %artist% tags, imo.

is it? i don't think it matters. winamp is only going to use one value for artist, so whether its the "first" TPE1 if TPE1 is "in there" multiple times, or the first entry in a TPE1 frame hacked to have multiple entries, its the same difference to winamp. it will only use one value.

i am pretty sure it does the same thing with vorbis. i believe the // mp3tag does works for both. in other words, the technical aspects of the implementation may be different, but the outcome is the same for software which understands it.

but what IS different, is the ease with which a user can "see" such multiple entires. much easier to do in vorbis than id3, and certainly a whole lot easier to edit. (i think it is possible to edit such things in vorbis in winamp at the file info level, but NOT id3 multiples in winamp)

Originally Posted by Aminifu

By easy to see in WA, I assume you mean the advanced tab in the tag editor for a flac file. Seeing it is not what I'm concerned about. The Vorbis spec (and maybe ID3's) allows it. By definition a flac file with 2 or more %artist% tags is not in error and there is nothing to troubleshoot.

But what will WA do when faced with 2 or more %artist% tags containing different values in the same file? Which one is used in a playlist title string or stored in the media library database?

right, and so that is a winamp failing. and it applies to both vorbis and id3, as the circumstance you describe above can and does happen in both. so you are not "immune" to it by choosing id3, which is what i was trying to tell you, and therefore i don't see wavpack as superior to flac b/c it uses id3 over vorbis.

now, as i've pointed out, i'm not concerned with multiple frames, for either format. i use winamp most of the time, and i mostly only care about what it sees and shows. if there are a few multiples in my files, i might see them in squeezebox server, but i might not. i would strip them out if needed, but for me it won't be common. nevertheless, it'll be easier to spot and fix in vorbis, than id3.

Originally Posted by Aminifu

Naive me, I had not (until now) expected the issue to come up with ID3. It never has in all the years I've been using mp3s. Broken ID3 %artist% tags --yes, 2 ID3 %artist% tags in the same file for the same ID3 version --never. However, just because I haven't seen it does not mean it can't happen. If it does, allowed by spec or not, my questions as to what will WA do remain the same.

fine, but my point was regarding choosing wavpack over flac.

and again, it really doesn't matter if its two TPE1s or a single TPE1 hacked into multiple entries, the outcome is the same. you can read up a lot more on this at the mp3tag forums.

Originally Posted by Aminifu

I suppose I could try to figure out how to make a test flac and mp3 and find out for myself what WA will do.

I did not speculate on whether "id3 or vorbis is more consistent then the other". I said I think vorbis is more flexible and the use of ID3 by various taggers would be more consistent. I concede that since I have no experience with vorbis tags, I have no rational reason for that belief.

i do not believe that id3 is any more "consistently" used by taggers than vorbis. in fact, it is only within the last 5 years that TPE2 has become the universal, and de facto standard for album artist by virtually all taggers, with foobar being the last holdout, and only switching over within the last 6-9months or so, if you can believe that. and of course, this is out of spec.

the truth is neither one is great, and vorbis is lacking in "official" and published standards, but this actually has made it in some ways more consistent, as apps have to confrom to the de facto standard to be relevant.

but the real advantage i see in vorbis, is just in its wysiwyg implementation. its just easier to work with.

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by MrSinatra

right, and so that is a winamp failing. and it applies to both vorbis and id3, as the circumstance you describe above can and does happen in both. so you are not "immune" to it by choosing id3, which is what i was trying to tell you, and therefore i don't see wavpack as superior to flac b/c it uses id3 over vorbis.

Winamp has some issues, but it (with plug-ins) is my music player and manager of choice for my desktop. I've tried others and continue to try new ones and new versions of old ones, but nothing beats WA overall, imo. I started this thread asking for comments on the best formats for use with WA. I'm satisfied with mp3 for lossy and was more interested in what people had to say for lossless.

I never said wavpack is superior to flac. My research and testing shows them to be virtually equal. The only real difference I see is how they handle tagging. Both vorbis and id3 provide the tagging support I want, including embedded artwork.

I have experience with id3, none with vorbis. I already know how to fix the id3 tag problems I have on occasion. When I read vorbis allows multiple tags with the exact same name (and encourages multiple artist tags), I was concerned because I had never seen this with id3 (not saying it wasn't there, just never seen it) and wondered what affect this would have in WA. It's good to know that WA will use the first instance and ignore the rest, not crash or do anything disruptive. It's true this is not the proper handling since such use of tags is allowed by spec (all tag fields in vorbis, some in id3).

So I decided to use wavpack for my lossless encoding because (everything else being equal) it uses tags I'm familiar with, not because I think id3 is superior to vorbis. I don't know enough about vorbis to make that judgement. The multiple artist 'thing' got me thinking it may cause a problem with WA.

Thank you for your insights on vorbis tagging. I'll be looking to educate myself more on vorbis going forward. From what you say I need not be overly concerned about WA's handling of them.

The Replay Gain discussion would be better done in it's own thread and there already are a few (I've seen some of your posts on that topic). There may even be threads on this tagging stuff, I'll have to look.

[Batter Pudding]

Why do I use FLAC? The answer to that is multiple.

1\ First a change of HiFi equipment in my house showed me how bad MP3 can be. Compare a 320kbps MP3 CD rip of Dark Side Of The Moon to a FLAC version. Totally different audio output. Even on the lowest MP3 compression the audio is clearly missing "something" at the top and bottom end.

2\ Wide support of FLAC. After many years of electronics companies seeing MP3, WMA and M4A being the only way, FLAC is springing up all over the place. My Blackberry phone supports it (and is surprisingly good with quality headphones). My Chinese Knock-Off Android Tablet supports native FLAC. The DLNA PVR under my TV set supports it. And my soon to be purchased Panasonic Plasma TV will support it.

This wide support is important to me in a connected house like I have. I have music sitting on a central server, and now all my devices in different rooms can dip into that music collection or have DLNA pushing the music to the device from across the house.

This whole "interconnectedness of things" has been a lucky addition for me. When I initially chose FLAC it was purely because of Winamp's native support. Now FLAC support is becoming common I have made a lucky choice.


To pick up on a couple of other comments above. Someone mentioned "Not possible with LPs, tapes, and CDs (some mechanical or electrical noise would interfere)." If you are getting mechanical noise from your CDs\LPs then it may be time for a new deck. There are more moving parts and noise from the average PC that there should ever be from a decent CD player.

And to the guy who did the FLAC vs APE compression. If you look at your numbers again there is almost no difference between then. You are talking about a 2% compression difference. Add that up across your collection and you are not going to gain much. One extra album squeezed in for every 50 you rip. But you will then loose out when you want to copy your music to a portable device as you will have to do format conversion. (As to the comments about folder names, artwork, scans, etc... don't you do that for all of your albums? Irrelevant of format?)


Pick a format you are happy with for your needs. But don't worry too much about the exact file space taken up. Hard disks are so cheap now that it is not worth the stress. When MP3 originally came out the compression had to be extremely high as flash based MP3 players were lucky to have 128MB of space. Now we have 32GB flash costing peanuts.

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by Batter Pudding

Someone mentioned "Not possible with LPs, tapes, and CDs (some mechanical or electrical noise would interfere)." If you are getting mechanical noise from your CDs\LPs then it may be time for a new deck. There are more moving parts and noise from the average PC that there should ever be from a decent CD player.

I should have made that comment clearer. I agree that current hardware is orders of magnitude better than it used to be. But no matter how careful you are, sooner or later, the media deterioration from just using the media adds more interference (pops, skips, etc.) to the music than the player devices do.

That said, the player devices contribute some interference also.

Turntables are the worst, imo. Keeping them properly adjusted is a time consuming chore. Rotational speed (direct drive or belt driven) needs to be watched. Keeping the stylus cartridge clean and at the correct tracking angle and weight is also very important. Turntables can pick up vibrations and add 'rumble' effects. The one I use for digitizing my LPs has a preamp (which adds a little noise, don't remember the exact specs) so that I can connect to my sound card's line input.

Tape decks are much better, but they add 'hiss' even with Dolby noise filters applied and can have tracking errors. The heads need to be cleaned and demagnetized from time to time. The deck I use has an analog output (again, don't remember the signal-to-noise specs) and connects via my sound card's line input.

CD players contribute the least interference and the least tracking errors. The only real concern is keeping the build up of internal dust down. When I first started, I used a portable player connected to my sound card's line input (real time recording speed). Then I used various internal computer decks, but their output was also analog and connected internally by a pair of unshielded wires to my sound card (up to 16x recording speed). Now I use an internal deck that supports digital extraction via it's SATA interface (up to 48x recording speed). 'Accurate Rip' technology in the player and the software I use is state-of-the-art and compensates for any detected tracking errors.

I point I was trying to make is that digital music technology, especially with lossless files stored on a SSD, eliminates media deterioration and noise from motors and other moving parts, and can reduce electrical signal-to-noise below a detectable level. The music itself can get closer to the 'old analog fullness' when bit depth and sampling rates are inevitably increased.


As to your use of flac, have you had any tagging issues with WA worth mentioning?

[Batter Pudding]

Turntables - I pull out my Rega Planer II rarely now. I understand the noise and clicks you mean there (though in ways I like those added sounds of "realism" ). It was that Rega Planer II that taught me about using quality HiFi kit. I remember it used to be comical comparing it to my first portable CD player - it was so much better in quality on the record player!!

When I record something from Vinyl I like the added sound of the needle hitting the record at the start and lifting at the end. Something nostalgic about that. Is that "background noise" that should be eliminated? Or part of the realistic sound of the audio as it was played?

CDs - mucky finger prints. Or the worst is the CD Rot which eats the aluminium. I have a few 25 year old CDs that have badly suffered in this way. Which is why I wanted to get everything into FLAC. You can actually see the holes in the disks when held up to the light. Or the disks have gone a nasty yellow. This is where I think the FLAC error correction is helping me to some extent (but I am not really sure TBH)

Tape deck - errr.... yeah. Not touched that in at least a decade. I will be going back to it soon to do one last archive of some hard to get tapes, but most of those are going in the bin as the tape media is rotting away anyway. (Just like my mouldy old VHS tapes) Instead of trying to copy the tapes, I replace them with CD\DVDs where possible and rip from them instead.


I have not had any tagging issues with my FLACs. And now I am moving them around to other devices there is nothing really standing out as an issue. Each different application seems to be reading the metadata okay.

The only minor hassle I get is with the artwork on my Blackberry phone as that needs to be renamed to folder.jpg. I am not a fan of embedded artwork as I would have one image per album taking up the space once instead of an image embedded into each track taking ten times the space. This also allows me to swap to higher resolution artwork simply by swapping one JPG instead of re-embedding everything.

Note also that I don't tend to use the rating stars as I have my music on a "read only" server. I don't want each music program messing with the tracks in case something gets corrupted. (Or one of my idiot mates hits delete in error - or horror points iTunes at the folder!!) So any ratings are kept in the separate library programs. (Different people like different things anyway)


The only real problem I have spotted is when a CD "crackles" during a rip. It there is a skip or a pop of any type then this is also recorded perfectly. Can't see any clear way to avoid that. So I have to make sure I listen to everything back a few times to catch these errors in transfer. Some of my earlier rips I would do in an almost production line system - just ripping on the PC with Winamp while getting on with other work. It was later that I spotted this "odd pop" issue so now review everything when I get time.


The point of all this is there is no perfect way. We all have our different needs. Some of my favourite albums like Pink Floyd I will be excessively careful with to get the most perfect sound due to the range in the original track. Whereas other lesser listened to tracks or poppy crap I don't worry as much about and leave as MP3. (Still make sure the tags are corrected though)

[lostinsound]

The only issue I've come across with tagging in flacs (and it's a small issue), is that whenever Winamp writes the Album Artist tag to a flac file, it writes it to the tag %Album Artist% (with a space) and when it writes to an mp3 it writes it to %Albumartist% (no space). I've always thought this is weird but I haven't looked into if there's a reason for it. It really doesn't cause any problems in Winamp, but there have been a couple times where I've been testing out other music players and that player only recognizes the %Albumartist% tag and it therefore shows up blank in their media library (in Nightingale for instance). That's really more of a shortcoming of the other player though.

Oh and I should maybe add that I don't use ID3 tags at all in my flac files. I guess it may behave differently if I used ID3 tags but I haven't tested it. Other than that I've had no issues with flac tagging.

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by Batter Pudding

(Just like my mouldy old VHS tapes) Instead of trying to copy the tapes, I replace them with CD\DVDs where possible and rip from them instead.

Don't get me started on VHS tapes. I have some old sporting events (Bears and Bulls games) that I can't get on DVD and really need to get around to digitizing them soon.

Originally Posted by Batter Pudding

The only real problem I have spotted is when a CD "crackles" during a rip. It there is a skip or a pop of any type then this is also recorded perfectly. Can't see any clear way to avoid that.

I bought a commercial product to remove such stuff from the wav file before encoding it to another format. But it's a very time consuming process because it takes several passes to 'scrub' most of the pops and crackles away without erasing the music too. I mostly use it for my LPs and tapes.

Originally Posted by Batter Pudding

The point of all this is there is no perfect way. We all have our different needs.

This is why I love the PC. It gives us so many choices.

Oh, almost forgot. Since you like the nostalgic sound of vinyl, there is an old DSP plug-in that might still work. It lets you make CDs sound like LPs

http://www.winamp.com/plugin/izotope-vinyl/39214

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by lostinsound

The only issue I've come across with tagging in flacs (and it's a small issue), is that whenever Winamp writes the Album Artist tag to a flac file, it writes it to the tag %Album Artist% (with a space) and when it writes to an mp3 it writes it to %Albumartist% (no space). I've always thought this is weird but I haven't looked into if there's a reason for it. It really doesn't cause any problems in Winamp, but there have been a couple times where I've been testing out other music players and that player only recognizes the %Albumartist% tag and it therefore shows up blank in their media library (in Nightingale for instance). That's really more of a shortcoming of the other player though.

Oh and I should maybe add that I don't use ID3 tags at all in my flac files. I guess it may behave differently if I used ID3 tags but I haven't tested it. Other than that I've had no issues with flac tagging.

You may want to send a PM to DJ Egg. He recently made a mode of flac tagging for another user. He may be 'persuaded' to look into this space/no space thing for you. It maybe that the vorbis spec calls for the space and ID3 does not.

Flac uses vorbis tags, I don't think you can put ID3 tags in a flac file.

[lostinsound]

Originally Posted by Aminifu

You may want to send a PM to DJ Egg. He recently made a mode of flac tagging for another user. He may be 'persuaded' to look into this space/no space thing for you. It maybe that the vorbis spec calls for the space and ID3 does not.

Flac uses vorbis tags, I don't think you can put ID3 tags in a flac file.

I was always under the impression that you could add ID3 tags to a flac file, it just wasn't recommended for a number or reasons. I've never actually tried it myself but I thought I remember reading that somewhere.

And the album artist tag issue doesn't really bother me that much and isn't worth the hassle of trying to get it changed, I just thought it was odd.

[Batter Pudding]

Originally Posted by Aminifu

Don't get me started on VHS tapes. I have some old sporting events (Bears and Bulls games) that I can't get on DVD and really need to get around to digitizing them soon.

ARF!! Talk about timing. I have just finished an email to my Dad about the Climax VCAP305 which was a cheap £20 ($31) from Amazon which does the job well.

VCR is a crud resolution anyway. And this little device will let you connect via s-video or composite and copy over to a digital format. First task I did with this was to convert a friend's video which was actually previously converted from Cine film. Some of the source material on there is 40 or 50 years old.

(One note about that Climax device. Drivers and software seem to work well - BUT there is some cruddy thing called "Dyyno" which is silently installed which will make your PC run dog slow. Especially when trying to capture video. This "Dyyno" must be hunted down and killed before a successful capture. Thankfully there is an uninstaller)


Oh - and don't put it off too much longer for converting the VHS tapes. They WILL be rotting now. Even if kept in perfect storage conditions. VHS is doing well if it can last ten years. And be ready with the tape head cleaners as some of your tapes will play ONCE and as they do so they will be leaving oxide all over the heads destroying the tape in the process. So be careful with your most precious recordings.

And more importantly. Once re-encoded... also sling those classic games up on YouTube for the rest of the world. Sometimes the ONLY copy left of some events are in lost VHS collections.

Originally Posted by Aminifu

I bought a commercial product to remove such stuff from the wav file before encoding it to another format. But it's a very time consuming process because it takes several passes to 'scrub' most of the pops and crackles away without erasing the music too. I mostly use it for my LPs and tapes.

It is that "time" bit I can't always be bothered with. Single pass ripping to FLAC is good enough for me. Let's call it 98% quality. To get that last 2% of perfection starts costing a lot more in cash and time.

It is also this "time to convert" issue that just makes me buy bigger hard disks instead of wasting time on researching more compression.

Originally Posted by Aminifu

This is why I love the PC. It gives us some many choices.

Ab-soo-fecking-lute-ly!! And as technology advances it all gets cheaper and easier at every step. That $13 video conversion device above makes me laugh at the Chinese tech being knocked out for pennies.

The main lesson I try and drill into anyone converting audio is to try and keep the original source material. Even if stashed in the corner of the loft. There is always more technology around the corner which will pull an even better sound\picture from the source. My MP3 320kbps experience showed me that in buckets. And now I have my 1080p TV set about to appear I am glad I never started on my DVD to Digital conversions as I'd be starting again there too.

Originally Posted by Aminifu

Oh, almost forgot. Since you like the nostalgic sound of vinyl, there is an old DSP plug-in that might still work. It lets you make CDs sound like LPs

http://www.winamp.com/plugin/izotope-vinyl/39214

Thanks... but I am not that bad. I'd rather have the pure CD. But you know those albums you copied from your mate as a teenager? Those that lived in the car on cassette for years? That is what I meant. I spent years with a cassette copy of Wish You Were Here which had an odd dropout between two tracks that I always assumed was in the original... still seems odd not hearing it now.

[Batter Pudding]

Originally Posted by lostinsound

The only issue I've come across with tagging in flacs (and it's a small issue), is that whenever Winamp writes the Album Artist tag to a flac file, it writes it to the tag %Album Artist% (with a space) and when it writes to an mp3 it writes it to %Albumartist% (no space).

I have just looked at my Blackberry and that is using the %artist% in every case for FLAC. Not sure if that is due to not understanding the space, or just a limitation of the phone.

[MrSinatra]

Originally Posted by lostinsound

The only issue I've come across with tagging in flacs (and it's a small issue), is that whenever Winamp writes the Album Artist tag to a flac file, it writes it to the tag %Album Artist% (with a space) and when it writes to an mp3 it writes it to %Albumartist% (no space). I've always thought this is weird but I haven't looked into if there's a reason for it. It really doesn't cause any problems in Winamp, but there have been a couple times where I've been testing out other music players and that player only recognizes the %Albumartist% tag and it therefore shows up blank in their media library (in Nightingale for instance). That's really more of a shortcoming of the other player though.

Oh and I should maybe add that I don't use ID3 tags at all in my flac files. I guess it may behave differently if I used ID3 tags but I haven't tested it. Other than that I've had no issues with flac tagging.

i'm afraid you are confused about whats happening.

first, i assume you are talking about mp3tag b/c you are stating variables via the percent signs?

id3 ONLY WORKS with 4 character frames. there is no " %whatever% " in id3. thats just the way the app states the variable, not what it actually writes in id3. it is NOT wysiwyg. the de facto standard (b/c its not anywhere in the spec) for album artist (with or without the space) is: "TPE2"

vorbis meanwhile IS wysiwyg. so winamp, when writing album artist to the vorbis tag, will do it as "ALBUM ARTIST"

winamp is also smart enough to READ "ALBUMARTIST" as meaning/being the same thing.

(i actually forget now if winamp does write with the space or not, but i documented it here on the forums before, and i think its with the space, but either way, it writes one way, but reads both).

in mp3tag. you then have to "map" the column such that the entries for it are written the right way depending on the format. this is a lot easier than it sounds. i have one column in mp3tag for "album artist" and it writes to TPE2 for id3, or "ALBUM ARTIST" for vorbis. i might have another column that "looks" for "ALBUMARTIST" entries as well, but i cleaned all that up some time ago anyway. i match my tags to how winamp writes them. but again, winamp will read BOTH.

and not to get too off point, but i think winamp will now also read TXXX ALBUMARTIST or TXXX ALBUM ARTIST id3 frames as well, (since i bugged them about that). TXXX = a custom frame in id3, which is kind of a way to introduce wysiwyg into id3, but hardly universal in support, since it can be anything and isn't used a lot by big apps.

(TPE2 meanwhile, has been "hijacked." its totally out of spec)

philosophically speaking, Vorbis can either be "ALBUMARTIST" or "ALBUM ARTIST" ...any decent app should read both. any decent app should also write that field the same way every time when creating it. like i said above, i think winamp writes it with the space, so i do what winamp wants.

i don't know if winamp will update both if both are present. and i also assume it prefers one over the other if both are present, presumably the one it actually writes.

Originally Posted by Aminifu

You may want to send a PM to DJ Egg. He recently made a mode of flac tagging for another user. He may be 'persuaded' to look into this space/no space thing for you. It maybe that the vorbis spec calls for the space and ID3 does not.

Flac uses vorbis tags, I don't think you can put ID3 tags in a flac file.

just as in id3, there is no vorbis spec for album artist. and in fact, the "vorbis spec" is very undocumented itself. but its b/c of that, imo, that the de facto rules are pretty standard, b/c no app or device wants to be the odd man out, but its also simple to see what the fields are.

what do you mean, "made a mode"?

btw, while it is possible to stick id3 tags into a FLAC, no one does this on purpose who knows what they are doing. its a hack and its not a good one. its also hardly supported by any apps anymore.

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by Batter Pudding

ARF!! Talk about timing. I have just finished an email to my Dad about the Climax VCAP305 which was a cheap £20 ($31) from Amazon which does the job well.

It seems that the Climax VCAP305 is only available on your side of the 'pond'.

I'll keep looking for it or something similar. Thanx for the tip.

[Batter Pudding]

Originally Posted by Aminifu

It seems that the Climax VCAP305 is only available on your side of the 'pond'.

I'll keep looking for it or something similar. Thanx for the tip.

That is odd. It happily handle NTSC and those weird US formats you have. Maybe it can be found under another name? (PM me and ask nicely and I'll post one to you if you really can't find any over there...)

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by MrSinatra

what do you mean, "made a mode"?

Sorry misspelling, should have typed 'mod' for modification.

http://forums.winamp.com/showthread.php?t=345246

[Batter Pudding]

After some researching..... This is what is looks like in the UK on Amazon

http://www.amazon.co.uk/ClimaxDigita...dp/B003PSHEY4/

And looking on Amazon US I can see products that look just like it. Example is a Diamond device:

http://www.amazon.com/Diamond-VC500-...dp/B000VM60I8/

With a bit more of a hunt you may find a newer model. (I bet Climax's drivers are interchangeable with the Diamond ones)


Note on both the UK and US "reviews" you see people whining about it not working. The point is this is a Chinese cheapo device. So the software needs a brain engaged to work. It does not auto-configure so you need to nip through the settings making sure S-video or composite is chosen. And there is also an installer bug on the Climax version that can pick the wrong Win7 driver. Again easily fixed.

Once it works - it works well. And for the price you'd expect some fiddling to get it to work.


Like many devices - these are created in China in a generic manner. And then it is up to the local dealer to localise it. When I look at the grabber software as installed on my PC it is funny as you have the ini file that tells it which images to use for the flash screen and player controls. This is how Climax or Diamond brand it as "their" device. (It also means I can hack my own image in instead)

Taking a second look at the images on the US site for the Diamond device it shows the exact same Grabber software as Climax use. Same icon, same interface. Just Climax title it "One Touch Grabber".

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by Batter Pudding

That is odd. It happily handle NTSC and those weird US formats you have. Maybe it can be found under another name? (PM me and ask nicely and I'll post one to you if you really can't find any over there...)

Thanx, but with the added cost of shipping and damage insurance I should be able to find something here for the same or less. I'll let you know what I come up with. I've put those VHS tapes off long enough!

What weird US formats?

We know it's really about not wanting to pay royalties for a perfectly good format that somebody already has a claim on. On either side of the 'pond'.

[Batter Pudding]

Originally Posted by Aminifu

Thanx, but with the added cost of shipping and damage insurance I should be able to find something here for the same or less. I'll let you know what I come up with. I've put those VHS tapes off long enough!

What weird US formats?

We know it's really about not wanting to pay royalties for a perfectly good format that somebody already has a claim on. On either side of the 'pond'.

NTSC vs PAL-I was a far deeper technical argument which has been covered elsewhere. Nothing to do with region encoding. All to do with both sides knowing that THEY had technology better than the OTHER side.

As you will see by the post above you, there are versions of this exact same hardware on your side of the pond. Just a different sticker of someone pretending to be the "manufacturer".

Note that I have already had this same simple device working through VLC. VLC happily shows what is coming through form the VCR. Which means I can now use VLCs own tricks to pass the video on to other devices via VLCs built in server. (Still in the early days of playing with this)

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by Batter Pudding

And looking on Amazon US I can see products that look just like it. Example is a Diamond device:

http://www.amazon.com/Diamond-VC500-...dp/B000VM60I8/

You're come to the rescue again. I've used Diamond products before with no problems. I ordered it. The only real dif I see is no built in link to YouTube. And you are right, a lot of products are made on the same assembly line with different labels put on at the end. You're also right about the average consumer. They've been spoiled, expecting things to just work out-of-the-box, no adjustment required.

[Batter Pudding]

Originally Posted by Aminifu

You're come to the rescue again. I've used Diamond products before with no problems. I ordered it. The only real dif I see is no built in link to YouTube. And you are right, a lot of products are made on the same assembly line with different labels put on at the end. You're also right about the average consumer. They've been spoiled, expecting things to just work out-of-the-box, no adjustment required.

There are four parts to this product.

1\ The hardware. Both Climax and Diamond looks identical here.
2\ The drivers. 32bit and 64bit versions available. So far have it on a couple of XP PCs and both 32-bit and 64-bit flavours of Vista. Currently rebuilding a Win7 64-bit PC and it will end up on there as well. Climax flavoured drivers here: http://www.climaxdigital.co.uk/WebRo...q/vcap305.html Dated July 2011 This is all you need to install to get it to work with products like VLC who recognise video capture devices. (If the diamond drivers turn out to be older, I bet you can just swap to these Climax versions)
3\ The simple grabber software. This is the same on Diamond and Climax again as it comes from the manufacturer. You can find it on the same FAQ page above. This allows for quick, simple capture to DVD, AVI, MP4 and other formats.
4\ Video editing Tools. The "you tube support" is Climax adding ID-10-T software into the package. They have bundled a CyberLink product to do your video editing with. If you don't already have video editing and conversion software I'd point instead at VideoRedo's TVSuite H.264 (Demo available here, try it out, well worth the cash - www.videoredo.com)

Now this gives you a new headache... which digital format to use to store your videos.

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by Batter Pudding

Now this gives you a new headache... which digital format to use to store your videos.

I assume that wont be too hard to decide. As you said VHS resolution is not great to start with. When I didn't have extended length tapes, I used the mode that slowed the recording speed (more time for a fixed length of tape) which reduces resolution even more.

It wont make sense to try to make a HD recording from VHS, would it?

[Batter Pudding]

Originally Posted by Aminifu

I assume that wont be too hard to decide. As you said VHS resolution is not great to start with. When I didn't have extended length tapes, I used the mode that slowed the recording speed (more time for a fixed length of tape) which reduces resolution even more.

It wont make sense to try to make a HD recording from VHS, would it?

DVDs are MPEG2. And so is the original TV show on your Digital TV when broadcast "over the air". I am used to working with these files as I have a PC based Digital TV card. (We call it Freeview TV here in the UK)

As I am so used to working with MPEG2 this is what I stuck with for the Climax device. So within the One Touch Grabber I just selected the DVD format while grabbing the video. This was about 2GB per hour.

My friend wanted DVDs she could play in a normal TV DVD player, so I used VideoReDo to trim the video and spit out DVDs. That same VideoReDo lets me also select the much smaller and modern MPEG4 H234 format which produces much smaller, compressed files. Trouble is it can take AGES to do this kind of video conversion. So I just stick with the MPEG2 files and buy bigger hard disks.


(I don't pretend to be an expert in the exact video types above... I use what works for me. So someone may well come along and correct my description here.)


Edit: Obviously Analogue TV was even lower res than Digital TV is. And with your extra compression of the "Long Play" VHS this will take the quality down even more. My friends VHS I did the other week was a four hour long tape also done in Long Play mode. It was hard to judge with that tape as it had already come from a Cine Reel so was suffering in places from all kinds of blow-out and lighting errors.

If I was aiming for "perfection" maybe I could have started tweaking and editing that video to "correct" the colour issues. I didn't bother as it would have taken me too long. Even as it is this has brought back images from a long and distant past and made a family very happy. (Especially as there are many baby photos of people who are now 60 years old!!)

[lostinsound]

Originally Posted by MrSinatra

i'm afraid you are confused about whats happening.

first, i assume you are talking about mp3tag b/c you are stating variables via the percent signs?

id3 ONLY WORKS with 4 character frames. there is no " %whatever% " in id3. thats just the way the app states the variable, not what it actually writes in id3. it is NOT wysiwyg. the de facto standard (b/c its not anywhere in the spec) for album artist (with or without the space) is: "TPE2"

vorbis meanwhile IS wysiwyg. so winamp, when writing album artist to the vorbis tag, will do it as "ALBUM ARTIST"

winamp is also smart enough to READ "ALBUMARTIST" as meaning/being the same thing.

(i actually forget now if winamp does write with the space or not, but i documented it here on the forums before, and i think its with the space, but either way, it writes one way, but reads both).

in mp3tag. you then have to "map" the column such that the entries for it are written the right way depending on the format. this is a lot easier than it sounds. i have one column in mp3tag for "album artist" and it writes to TPE2 for id3, or "ALBUM ARTIST" for vorbis. i might have another column that "looks" for "ALBUMARTIST" entries as well, but i cleaned all that up some time ago anyway. i match my tags to how winamp writes them. but again, winamp will read BOTH.

Thanks for all the info. Admittedly I haven't dug into the details of how the tags are actually being written, I've just been going by what I see in mp3tag.

I basically have two columns in mp3tag, one with the value %ALBUMARTIST% and another with the value %ALBUM ARTIST%. For my mp3s, the %ALBUMARTIST% column shows the album artist and the %ALBUM ARITIST% column is empty, and vice versa for flac files. I have it like that because those are the tags that Winamp writes to by default for each file type according to mp3tag. I wasn't aware you could have a single column that could show different tags depending on the file type.

For now, the way I have it is good enough for me. Maybe one day I'll delve into this in more detail, but right now I have everything organized how I want it and don't want to spend too much time with this. Thanks again for this description though. It makes things a little clearer as to why Winamp writes tags the way it does.