Replaygain help

[jason69uk]

Reffering to this guide:

http://blog.winamp.com/2009/08/24/au...ain/1#comments

Hi im actually struggling with this a bit....

After loading up a playlist of FLAC files and selecting all of them in my playlist, going to send to then 'Calculate replay gain' instead of putting all the songs in one 'Replay Gain Results' box it puts up 21 boxes with each song inside unlike the image on the tutorial which adds all songs to that one dialog box.

So how do i make all songs get applied in one go?

Thank you.

[Aminifu]

Hi jason69uk,

I get all the RG analysis results in a single box for the selected files. Are you using the latest WA version 5.623? What are your settings in the WA preferences for RG?

Winamp > Prefs (Ctrl+P) > Playback > Replay Gain tab:
Checkmark: Ask after all files are scanned

[MrSinatra]

Do you have album tags? Same album or no? Other tags, like album artist, are what?

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by MrSinatra

Do you have album tags? Same album or no? Other tags, like album artist, are what?

No tags need to be present if you just want to use RG for track mode analysis. The album tag (as a minimum) is needed to have RG calculate the adjustment values for album and track modes.

[MrSinatra]

Originally Posted by Aminifu

No tags need to be present if you just want to use RG for track mode analysis. The album tag (as a minimum) is needed to have RG calculate the adjustment values for album and track modes.

i know that, i just said it to you:

http://forums.winamp.com/showpost.ph...83&postcount=5

i was asking him that b/c i have seen what he is talking about. it happened to me, but i forget now why, it was some time ago, but i seem to recall it had something to do with my tags (or lack of them). obviously u have to be in manual mode as well.

it could also have something to do with doing it from a playlist as opposed to ML. just trying to recreate in my mind how it happened to me.

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by MrSinatra

i know that, i just said it to you:

Ok, I misunderstood some of what you wrote then and you said "(and maybe some combo of other tags depending of different factors)". My response then, driven by my confusion, confused you.

Anyway maybe things have changed over time. For flac files, the only tag needed now is the album tag to have RG calculate album and track values.

As for having all results show up in 1 box, the current version of WA only needs that option (mentioned in my earlier post #2) enabled.

By the way, some moderator seems to be helping me.

I did not write those last 2 lines in that post. I ended by asking the OP what his settings are. This is the 2nd time someone has anonymously edited a post of mine.

[jason69uk]

Hey people

So sorry for my late reply!

Just checked here.

ok so yes they are FLACs.

The thing is theyre downloads of individual songs from different albums which i have used to make up my own album which i cant find on the internet.

So ive made an album from songs off other albums.

would that be the reason why each song is coming up in different dialogue boxes?

It just seems that..... the fact it's doing that means i have to individually apply gain to each dialogue box (track) seems crazy!

Let me know.

Thanks guys

Btw yes im using latest ver 5.632

Thanks

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by jason69uk

would that be the reason why each song is coming up in different dialogue boxes?

No, that should not be the reason. Have you checked the option mentioned in post #2 above?

[jason69uk]

Originally Posted by jason69uk

Reffering to this guide:

http://blog.winamp.com/2009/08/24/au...ain/1#comments

Hi im actually struggling with this a bit....

After loading up a playlist of FLAC files and selecting all of them in my playlist, going to send to then 'Calculate replay gain' instead of putting all the songs in one 'Replay Gain Results' box it puts up 21 boxes with each song inside unlike the image on the tutorial which adds all songs to that one dialog box.

So how do i make all songs get applied in one go?

Thank you.

Ah thats done the trick!

Thank you very much indeed.

Just another question as theyre all from different albums do i 'save as album' or 'save as track'?

Also ive messed about with the 'adjustment for files without replay gain' setting and cant find the default db settings now!

What are everyones default db settings?

Thanks again to those who replied!

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by jason69uk

Just another question as theyre all from different albums do i 'save as album' or 'save as track'?

Also ive messed about with the 'adjustment for files without replay gain' setting and cant find the default db settings now!

I would save as track, since they are not really from the same album. Sometimes songs on the same album are meant to have different volume levels. Using RG album mode maintains these relative differences while adjusting the overall volume level for the album.

But saving album gain values does not mean you have to use them. It also depends on what option you have set for "Preferred source" on that same RG options page. If you have it set for album and don't save the album gain values then RG will ignore the track values you saved (if you also selected the option to 'Disable if preferred source is not available'). If you 'save as album' then both the album and track values are saved. Then the "Preferred source" can be set to album or track and both would work.

If you want to 'create' an album, then all the album tags in the selected tracks should have the same thing (made up name) in them.

The default level for 'adjustment for files without replay gain' is -6db.

[jason69uk]

Originally Posted by Aminifu

I would save as track, since they are not really from the same album. Sometimes songs on the same album are meant to have different volume levels. Using RG album mode maintains these relative differences while adjusting the overall volume level for the album.

But saving album gain values does not mean you have to use them. It also depends on what option you have set for "Preferred source" on that same RG options page. If you have it set for album and don't save the album gain values then RG will ignore the track values you saved (if you also selected the option to 'Disable if preferred source is not available'). If you 'save as album' then both the album and track values are saved. Then the "Preferred source" can be set to album or track and both would work.

If you want to 'create' an album, then all the album tags in the selected tracks should have the same thing (made up name) in them.

The default level for 'adjustment for files without replay gain' is -6db.

Thank you very much.

What i have done is highlighted them all and done 'Save track data'

Have a look at my settings box here:



Are these good settings to keep for what i mentioned? ('Save track data')

Thanks very much again!

[Aminifu]

Hi jason69uk,

Why have you set the preamp to +3.8 db? This option will increase the overall volume before the RG volume controls are applied. Too much preamp gain along with RG could cause clipping. Clipping could cause distortion of some frequencies. I would return it to 0 db and increase the main player's volume control and/or your sound device's volume control if the music seems too low.

[jason69uk]

Hi ok no problem just done!

Thanks.

Apart form that are all settings ok and what you would choose for 'Save track data' option?

[Aminifu]

You're good to go. There's nothing left to do, all the other settings are good.

Don't know what you mean by "what you would choose for 'Save track data' option?". I discussed that in post # 10.

You can use the WA tag editor if you want to check that the RG values were indeed saved in the files. Select a file in the playlist editor and press ALT+3. The RG values should be shown on the lower right side of the first tab in the editor. Use the cancel button to exit the editor without changing anything. Using the ok button will resave the tag values that you see.

[jason69uk]

Ok i got it thanks very much ill save what u said to remind me if i forget this in a few years! haha.

Also... can u recommend me a bit of software which enables me to reencode a FLAC or WAV album i made up of many different songs (all at different volumes) to be encoded all to a certain decibel so they all play at the same volume with whatever i use to play them for example a car stereo which doesnt support replaygain?

Cheers

[Aminifu]

Sorry I only know of 1 app that does that (MP3Gain), but it only works on mp3s.

Something should be coming along before too long, what with storage space now being huge and cheap and more people using lossless formats, like flac.

[jason69uk]

Yes i thought that might have been the case!
Hopefully will come out by the same makers as that MP3Gain is excellent.

cheers.

[MrSinatra]

Originally Posted by Aminifu

Anyway maybe things have changed over time. For flac files, the only tag needed now is the album tag to have RG calculate album and track values.

i believe thats also true for mp3. however, for comp albums, i think an AA tag is also needed to get a proper result, as otherwise winamp could conflate albums, or not conflate tracks, depending on what is sent to calc RG.

Originally Posted by Aminifu

As for having all results show up in 1 box, the current version of WA only needs that option (mentioned in my earlier post #2) enabled.

By the way, some moderator seems to be helping me.

I did not write those last 2 lines in that post. I ended by asking the OP what his settings are. This is the 2nd time someone has anonymously edited a post of mine.

yes, i should have actually looked at the pref first, b/c thats it. all files vs each album.

usually mods note that they made an edit to your post, thats really odd. probably just an oversight.

[MrSinatra]

Originally Posted by jason69uk

Just another question as theyre all from different albums do i 'save as album' or 'save as track'?

Also ive messed about with the 'adjustment for files without replay gain' setting and cant find the default db settings now!

What are everyones default db settings?

Thanks again to those who replied!

the default for files with no RG tags is -6db. seems to me to be about right. if you turn up your pre-amp tho, since that adjusts all files, you need to adjust this by the same amount, but in the other direction. so +2db preamp would mean -8db no RG tags.

also, i would save as album. yes, they are not from the same album, but you are making your own album, and i believe something is better than nothing.

winamps biggest playback failing is that it doesn't have "smartgain" so it doesn't know when to use track or album gain, so you'll likely be in track mode anyway. but if ur in album mode, the volume is more likely to be moderated if using album RG than if not.

btw, you should just turn off manual mode anyway. just let winamp write the tags automatically. no fuss, no muss.

also, if you run mp3gain on your files, be sure to calc RG on them AFTER that.

[MrSinatra]

Originally Posted by Aminifu

Hi jason69uk,

Why have you set the preamp to +3.8 db? This option will increase the overall volume before the RG volume controls are applied. Too much preamp gain along with RG could cause clipping. Clipping could cause distortion of some frequencies. I would return it to 0 db and increase the main player's volume control and/or your sound device's volume control if the music seems too low.

i'm not sure about this. i've used +2db on a shoutcast server and it sounds fine.

the preamp does seem to apply to all files, with or without RG tags, and even webstreams. so it would seem to increase volume PRIOR to RG values being taken into account. but i'm not CERTAIN thats how the audio is processed.

moreover, i'm not sure it matters, if RG then brings it back down. the preamp is to adjust the baseline, so 89 becomes 91 in my case. take a CD with -10db RG on a track. if you do +2 it now is at 101 instead of 99, but the -10 will still be applied. i think in most cases, esp if its not too extreme, its safe to do this.

(it also depends on distribution of peak levels)

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by MrSinatra

winamps biggest playback failing is that it doesn't have "smartgain" so it doesn't know when to use track or album gain, so you'll likely be in track mode anyway. but if ur in album mode, the volume is more likely to be moderated if using album RG than if not.

btw, you should just turn off manual mode anyway. just let winamp write the tags automatically. no fuss, no muss.

also, if you run mp3gain on your files, be sure to calc RG on them AFTER that.

As far as "smartgain" goes, I think WA's RG does the right thing in making album or track gain the user's choice. Some users (like me) prefer that all tracks play at close to the same overall volume level even if the 'real' album has it's tracks playing at relatively different volume levels.

Viewing the WA RG results before they are applied will let the user catch rare errors, such as a corrupt album tag that WA can't read thus preventing it's RG from calculating the album adjustment value. Taking a little time to look for such things at this point, saves time later (looking for the problem) if things don't work as expected. Again, it's good that the user has a choice. Those that check their files for tagging and other errors have less of a need to verify the WA RG analysis results.

Why do you encourage using WA's RG on mp3s that were 'adjusted' by mp3gain? The unpublished WA RG target db level could easily be different (and likely lower) than the user's selected target level used by mp3gain. That could end up with the apps working against each other.

It's better to use one or the other for mp3s, but not both (and change the adjustment for tracks without RG to 0 db, if you use mp3gain for mp3s and WA's RG for other formats), imo. The adjustment for tracks without RG is helpful for those that mix in loud tracks with formats that are not supported by mp3gain or WA's RG (or otherwise can not apply either replay gain method, such as when streaming). These users should only use WA's RG for locally stored mp3s.

[MrSinatra]

Originally Posted by Aminifu

As far as "smartgain" goes, I think WA does the right thing in making album or track gain the user's choice. Some users (like me) prefer that all tracks play at close to the same overall volume level even if the 'real' album has it's tracks playing at relatively different volume levels.

OF COURSE it should be the users choice. "smart gain" would just be a 3rd mode. so track, album, or smart. (or off)

Originally Posted by Aminifu

Viewing the RG results before they are applied will let the user catch rare errors, such as a corrupt album tag that WA can't read thus preventing RG from calculating the album adjustment value. Taking a little time to look for such things at this point, saves time later (looking for the problem) if things don't work as expected. Again, it's good that the user has a choice. Those that check their files for tagging and other errors have less of a need to verify the RG analysis results.

i still think it should be automatic by default. but yes, users should have the choice.

Originally Posted by Aminifu

Why do you encourage using WA's RG on mp3s that were 'adjusted' by mp3gain? The unpublished WA RG target db level could easily be different (and likely lower) than the user's selected target level used by mp3gain. That could end up with the apps working against each other. It's better to use one or the other for mp3s, but not both (and change the adjustment for tracks without RG to 0 db, if you use mp3gain for mp3s and WA's RG for other formats), imo.

lets be clear...

what i said was they should apply RG tags AFTER they do mp3gain. why? for several reasons...

first of all, it should be after so that the gain from mp3gain is taken into account.

second, RG is more accurate than the 1.5 increments of mp3gain.

third, having RG tags present will keep winamp from making adjustments to files without RG tags. plus, the winamp preamp can adjust RG files to a target level.

fourth, mp3gain is only good for mp3, while RG applies to many more formats.

there's just no reason not to do it, that i can see.

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by MrSinatra

i'm not sure about this. i've used +2db on a shoutcast server and it sounds fine.

the preamp does seem to apply to all files, with or without RG tags, and even webstreams. so it would seem to increase volume PRIOR to RG values being taken into account. but i'm not CERTAIN thats how the audio is processed.

moreover, i'm not sure it matters, if RG then brings it back down. the preamp is to adjust the baseline, so 89 becomes 91 in my case. take a CD with -10db RG on a track. if you do +2 it now is at 101 instead of 99, but the -10 will still be applied. i think in most cases, esp if its not too extreme, its safe to do this.

(it also depends on distribution of peak levels)

Your views here are valid. I was just stating what I do. The preamp adjustment is made before RG adjustments. The point is to use the preamp with care, it could work against what the user is trying to accomplish with RG.

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by MrSinatra

OF COURSE it should be the users choice. "smart gain" would just be a 3rd mode. so track, album, or smart. (or off)


lets be clear...

what i said was they should apply RG tags AFTER they do mp3gain. why? for several reasons...

first of all, it should be after so that the gain from mp3gain is taken into account.

second, RG is more accurate than the 1.5 increments of mp3gain.

third, having RG tags present will keep winamp from making adjustments to files without RG tags. plus, the winamp preamp can adjust RG files to a target level.

fourth, mp3gain is only good for mp3, while RG applies to many more formats.

there's just no reason not to do it, that i can see.

No need to yell, it was not clear that you were suggesting a 3rd mode. That would be helpful.

As for mp3gain and WA's RG, I've tried using both on the same mp3s and usually WA's RG lowered the level I had set with mp3gain.

WA's RG is no more accurate than mp3gain for mp3s. The way the mp3's data structure handles volume control dictates this. The math is explained in another thread and you can look it up elsewhere on the WEB. Other differences, not error, are a function of the algorithms used by the 2 methods.

I stated that the adjustments to files without RG tags should be set to 0 db for those who want to use mp3gain for mp3s and WA's RG for other formats. I also stated that for some users mixing the 2 methods would not be a good idea (gave an example in an edit to the post that you may have missed).

The preamp adjustment is made before RG adjustments and it's a very inexact way to try to influence the target level that WA's RG uses, especially since it is unknown what that level is.

The fact that WA's RG can be used on more file formats had nothing to do with using it and mp3gain on the same mp3s.

It you still don't see why using both methods on the same mp3s is a bad idea (or at the least, doesn't gain anything), there is little more I can say to convince you.

[jason69uk]

Hi guys.

Should i actually be applying album tags to these then in order for them to work.

What im doing so far is loading up a playlist of various FLAC files on winamp using CTRL A to select all, right clicking choosing send to > calc ReplayGain. then 'Saving as Track'

then of course applying those settings in the box i pasted above as a picture....

There are no additional things needed to be adjusted elsewhere on winamp settings in order to get the volume playing at EXACTLY the same DB on every song in my playlist right?

Just what we mentioned?

Thanks

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by jason69uk

There are no additional things needed to be adjusted elsewhere on winamp settings in order to get the volume playing at EXACTLY the same DB on every song in my playlist right?

There is no way to have tracks (songs) play at exactly the same db level. Using the ReplayGain calculated track values will have the tracks play as close to the same db level as possible. The differences should be too small to hear.

I tried to explain album mode before. Album mode maintains the different volume levels between tracks, if any, as they are on the real album. To use this correctly, only select the tracks that are from the same album when you do the ReplayGain calculation and be sure the album tag in these tracks is correct. If the album tag does not contain a name, the album value is not calculated but the track value is. The track value is always calculated even if there are no tags in the tracks.

Selecting album mode when you save the ReplayGain calculation results saves both the album and track values. That way you can use either one when you want to. Selecting track mode when you save the ReplayGain calculation results only saves the track values. You can redo the calculations at any time (if you decide to group track selections by album and add their RG album values later).

Select "Track" as the "Preferred source:" option when you want all tracks to play as close to the same level as possible (whether they are from the same album or not). Change this option to "Album" when you play tracks grouped by album and you want to hear the volume differences, in any, as they are on the real album.

[MrSinatra]

Originally Posted by jason69uk

Hi guys.

Should i actually be applying album tags to these then in order for them to work.

imo, and winamps (as said on their blog), you should always apply BOTH types of tags to your files.

Originally Posted by jason69uk

What im doing so far is loading up a playlist of various FLAC files on winamp using CTRL A to select all, right clicking choosing send to > calc ReplayGain. then 'Saving as Track'

then of course applying those settings in the box i pasted above as a picture....

There are no additional things needed to be adjusted elsewhere on winamp settings in order to get the volume playing at EXACTLY the same DB on every song in my playlist right?

Just what we mentioned?

Thanks

you should save as album, not save as track, imo (and winamps). better yet, change the pref so it just applies the values without prompting you. why be bothered?

just make sure you are sending all the tracks on the album.

you also need to make sure RG is "on" and set it to use track or album tags, depending on if you are listening to whole albums or not.

[MrSinatra]

Originally Posted by Aminifu

No need to yell, it was not clear that you were suggesting a 3rd mode. That would be helpful.

emphatic and yelling are not the same thing.

Originally Posted by Aminifu

As for mp3gain and WA's RG, I've tried using both on the same mp3s and usually WA's RG lowered the level I had set with mp3gain.

huh? explain what you mean.

Originally Posted by Aminifu

WA's RG is no more accurate than mp3gain for mp3s. The way the mp3's data structure handles volume control dictates this. The math is explained in another thread and you can look it up elsewhere on the WEB. Other differences, not error, are a function of the algorithms used by the 2 methods.

that simply isn't true. mp3gain adjusts the gain via the data in the file, ie its header, and you said its done in 1.5db increments.

RG meanwhile is a text value that can be to the x.xx value of a db. that then is applied on playback by the app, and has nothing to do with the data structure of the file.

so obviously, RG is more accurate, and far more incremental.

Originally Posted by Aminifu

I stated that the adjustments to files without RG tags should be set to 0 db for those who want to use mp3gain for mp3s and WA's RG for other formats.

or you could just apply mp3gain, and then calc RG tags on them. the problem with putting it to 0 is that some formats do not support either mp3gain OR RG.

also consider webstreams and so on.

Originally Posted by Aminifu

I also stated that for some users mixing the 2 methods would not be a good idea (gave an example in an edit to the post that you may have missed).

ok, not sure i did?

Originally Posted by Aminifu

The preamp adjustment is made before RG adjustments and it's a very inexact way to try to influence the target level that WA's RG uses, especially since it is unknown what that level is.

what are you talking about? RG aims for 89db. if i do +2db in the preamp, i am just adding 2db exactly to the baseline across the board.

Originally Posted by Aminifu

The fact that WA's RG can be used on more file formats had nothing to do with using it and mp3gain on the same mp3s.

who said it did?

the point i was trying to make is that if you can apply RG to most formats, then you are best off doing that then trying to mix and match, even if you still insist on using both.

Originally Posted by Aminifu

It you still don't see why using both methods on the same mp3s is a bad idea (or at the least, doesn't gain anything), there is little more I can say to convince you.

i'm still waiting for you to explain the problem?

take a file that needs a -6.73db adjustment. you do mp3gain first. that does -6db. then AFTER you do RG tag calcs, and that says a further -0.73db in the tag. on playback, RG only makes a -0.73 real time adjustment. where's the problem?

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by MrSinatra

mp3gain adjusts the gain via the data in the file, ie its header,...

Changes are not made to a mp3's header. What I wrote elsewhere about how mp3gain works is almost an exact copy of what mp3gain's developer wrote. I have no reason to believe he would misrepresent how his app works.

Originally Posted by MrSinatra

...and you said its done in 1.5db increments. RG meanwhile is a text value that can be to the x.xx value of a db. that then is applied on playback by the app, and has nothing to do with the data structure of the file.

so obviously, RG is more accurate, and far more incremental.

There is error in mp3gain. But does it really matter? Take some numbers. Say the original file levels are 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, or 95 and mp3gain's target level is set to 89.0 (yes, you can use tenths and select the target level you want). You will get 89, 88.5, 89.5, 89, 88.5, 89.5, 89, 88.5, 89.5, or 89. A person would have to have very good hearing to hear a half dB difference. Or take some examples that are more 'real world', 93.3, 93.5, or 93.8. You would get 88.8, 89, or 89.3. Those errors are even less. If WA's RG errors are even smaller, great. But is it really a major strike against mp3gain with errors of this size.

Originally Posted by MrSinatra

what are you talking about? RG aims for 89db.

I have not been able to find an official statement of what the WA RG target level is. But it probably is, or close to, 89 dB from what I've seen testing both implementations.

Originally Posted by MrSinatra

i'm still waiting for you to explain the problem?

take a file that needs a -6.73db adjustment. you do mp3gain first. that does -6db. then AFTER you do RG tag calcs, and that says a further -0.73db in the tag. on playback, RG only makes a -0.73 real time adjustment. where's the problem?

If someone is working with original files and they want to do this, fine. But why waste time running files through 2 apps. Just let WA's RG do the job in 1 go and be done.

But what if you have hundreds or thousands of mp3s already adjusted by mp3gain to 90 or 91 (like I have)? I don't believe the 1 or 2 dB will matter that much, but I still would not want my mp3 levels reduced by even that small amount and I certainly don't want them reduced by 6 dB (the default adjustment for files without RG tags). So if I mixed my mp3gain adjusted mp3s with songs with RG tags, I would set that preamp to 0 db. I also would not mix the playing of streaming media with my locally stored songs, but that's just me.


We have moved somewhat OT again. The OP was asking about using RG with flac. MP3Gain only came up (as an aside) in answer to a question asked in post #15. The OP is familiar with mp3gain as expressed in post # 17.

I suggest you reread the 2nd quote and response in post #22, some users are not as careful with tagging as you are. I also suggest you reread the last paragraph of post #21.

[MrSinatra]

Originally Posted by Aminifu

Changes are not made to a mp3's header. What I wrote elsewhere about how mp3gain works is almost an exact copy of what mp3gain's developer wrote. I have no reason to believe he would misrepresent how his app works.

yes, i was loose with the terminology, it affects the gain per frame. but that really had nothing to do with my point.

RG IS more accurate, which you denied. and RG is applied on playback, not to the data (be it frame or header) and that was the point. you seemed to suggest RG was applied to the data file itself directly, in the same way mp3gain is.

when you say "The way the mp3's data structure handles volume control dictates this." when following saying this: "WA's RG is no more accurate than mp3gain for mp3s." it needs to be corrected on both counts. it IS more accurate, and RG has NOTHING to do with a files "data structure" unlike mp3gain, which applies gain directly to the data structure.

Originally Posted by Aminifu

There is error in mp3gain. But does it really matter?

yes.

as i said elsewhere, one db = the level most humans can reliably tell the difference between. so 1.5db is going to be an approximation, not nearly as accurate as RG which does everything to hundreths.

i submit that while humans may not be able to signal in a test situation 0.75db of difference everytime, that when listening to music, they will notice a casual difference. consider that when using RG the experience is STILL not perfect. some songs simply "seem" louder than others. RG helps a lot, mostly keeps my hands off the volume control, but i can't say that everything "sounds" equally loud. using mp3gain exclusively, you now want to enter at least another 0.75db of variance to an already imperfect experience? i think that would ultimately be "more noticeable."

jmho.

Originally Posted by Aminifu

Take some numbers. Say the original file levels are 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, or 95 and mp3gain's target level is set to 89.0 (yes, you can use tenths and select the target level you want). You will get 89, 88.5, 89.5, 89, 88.5, 89.5, 89, 88.5, 89.5, or 89. A person would have to have very good hearing to hear a half dB difference. Or take some examples that are more 'real world', 93.3, 93.5, or 93.8. You would get 88.8, 89, or 89.3. Those errors are even less. If WA's RG errors are even smaller, great. But is it really a major strike against mp3gain with errors of this size.

RG lets me take WHATEVER level the orig file is, and get it set exactly (as a matter of math) to 89db. (obviously the type of music and variance inside the file matter, ergo the perceptive differences, but the same formula is applied to all)

mp3gain meanwhile, only working in 1.5db increments losslessly, can always be off by 0.7db and will likely a majority of the time be off by 0.1db or more.

so gain, given that RG already results in an imperfect listening experience, why would i want to increase that variance?

its also problematic to let users assign a "target" level since that will not be consistent with anything else, and/or be a problem if they don't know what they are doing.

Originally Posted by Aminifu

I have not been able to find an official statement of what the WA RG target level is. But it probably is, or close to, 89 dB from what I've seen testing both implementations.

i can assure you, it is.

http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index....tle=ReplayGain

if it isn't, then they coded poorly.

you could test this by taking the same file, dupe it, and running it once thru RG, and once thru mp3gain. then run the mp3gain file thru RG, and assuming the target level was the same, the "total gain" change for the dual method file should equal or be fairly close to the RG only file.

more:

http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index...._specification

Originally Posted by Aminifu

If someone is working with original files and they want to do this, fine. But why waste time running files through 2 apps. Just let WA's RG do the job in 1 go and be done.

thats been my point all along.

mp3gain is a utility to use ONLY when you can't find a RG based solution. in my usage, i have not needed it at all.

Originally Posted by Aminifu

But what if you have hundreds or thousands of mp3s already adjusted by mp3gain to 90 or 91 (like I have)? I don't believe the 1 or 2 dB will matter that much, but I still would not want my mp3 levels reduced by even that small amount and I certainly don't want them reduced by 6 dB (the default adjustment for files without RG tags). So if I mixed my mp3gain adjusted mp3s with songs with RG tags, I would set that preamp to 0 db.

first, i would suggest that you reverse all your mp3gain files. but even if you don't, i would still run them thru RG, b/c there is no reason not to.

second, i am unclear here to what you are doing. why do you have different target levels for your mp3s done with mp3gain? and regardless, if you didn't want to reverse them, why not apply RG so your other RG settings will apply equally to all?

Originally Posted by Aminifu

I also would not mix the playing of streaming media with my locally stored songs, but that's just me.

that wasn't the point. first of all, some people do. but regardless, i don't want to have to screw around with my RG settings just b/c i want to stop listening to local media, and start a webstream.

Originally Posted by Aminifu

We have moved somewhat OT again. The OP was asking about using RG with flac. MP3Gain only came up (as an aside) in answer to a question asked in post #15. The OP is familiar with mp3gain as expressed in post # 17.

ok, and so...?

Originally Posted by Aminifu

I suggest you reread the 2nd quote and response in post #22, some users are not as careful with tagging as you are.

no need to reread it as what i said in response stands. and actually, do you know for a fact winamp gives no error in such a case, meaning if writing RG automatically yet coming across an album tag error?

frankly, if they have album tag errors, which are exceedingly rare, then they have bigger problems. every user should run their files thru mp3tag to spot bad tags, and if they aren't willing to do that, then why would they be willing to manually approve the RG results for every album?

Originally Posted by Aminifu

I also suggest you reread the last paragraph of post #21.

i'll respond:

Originally Posted by Aminifu

It's better to use one or the other for mp3s, but not both

why?

didn't we just go thru this? didn't you just admit there is no harm in doing so?

Originally Posted by Aminifu

If someone is working with original files and they want to do this, fine. But why waste time running files through 2 apps. Just let WA's RG do the job in 1 go and be done.

right?

Originally Posted by Aminifu

(and change the adjustment for tracks without RG to 0 db, if you use mp3gain for mp3s and WA's RG for other formats), imo.

that assumes your mp3gain tracks are set for a target level of 89db, and it also assumes you don't have any other formats or streams that don't support either mp3gain or RG.

also, it means you will introduce a further 0.75db of variance to an already imperfect experience.

and if you set your mp3s to any other target than 89, or multiple targets, via mp3gain then you basically have to use RG.

Originally Posted by Aminifu

The adjustment for tracks without RG is helpful for those that mix in loud tracks with formats that are not supported by mp3gain or WA's RG (or otherwise can not apply either replay gain method, such as when streaming). These users should only use WA's RG for locally stored mp3s.

let me be clear, in case i wasn't:

best practices, imo, is to apply RG and ONLY RG, to everything you can.

the ONLY time you should ever even think of using mp3gain, is if you have a specific need to desire to do so, b/c you can not otherwise find a RG based solution. but even in that case, i would STILL apply RG tags to such files AFTER they got their mp3gain adjustments, since the RG calc will then take that into account when creating RG tags.

i don't see whats controversial or bad advice about ANYTHING i just stated?

[MrSinatra]

as a further aside, the link i posted above says this:

"In the audio data method, the file's actual audio data is modified so that its natural/default playback volume is at the target level. In this scenario, only one type of ReplayGain (Track Gain or Album Gain) can be applied."

which to me, assuming its true, (and it likely is since you can't simultaneously apply two different gains to one set of audio data), is another huge strike against mp3gain.

it also would be another reason to apply RG to all files done with mp3gain, so that the right RG would exist for both types (ie. whichever one was not present)

[Aminifu]

Hi MrSinatra,

This back and forth gains nothing. You have your opinions and conclusions and I have mine. Both have been stated and understood, all we're doing is repeating ourselves. I like using mp3gain for what it does. It does album mode or track mode. I only use track mode so I don't care that WA's RG makes it easier to switch between them. If I ever want to use album mode, I can still use mp3gain to do so (with or without returning files to their original levels). MP3Gain lets me set a target level that I want, with or without clipping. I like that also; a little, low level, random clipping that does not cause distortion, that I can hear, is not a terrible thing, imo.


IMO, it's a disservice to others to misrepresent facts.

The math shows a possible error of 0.5 dB not 0.75 db in the target level that mp3gain tries to achieve.

The article you linked to says: "The target loudness of almost all ReplayGain utilities is 89 dB SPL (an early departure from the proposal, endorsed by its author) — the ReplayGain proposal and SMPTE recommendation are 6dB lower." This does not say that the target level WA's RG uses is 89 dB and does not assure me that it is (almost all is not all). (Opinion: If it is not, I would not consider that a bug in WA. Whatever the WA devs decided to use is workable. If I don't like the result, WA now provides a preamp that lets me move the perceived RG overall volume level up or down.)

I did not admit using both WA's RG and mp3gain on the same mp3 does no harm, unless you mean harm in the sense of breaking something. I gave several reasons against using both on the same file, the least of which (imo) is the waste of time. I said both can be used on the same mp3, because that is a statement of fact. I clearly did not (and do not) endorse the practice. Taking statements or partial statements out of context does not change that.


You tend to push what you (and some others) refer to as best practices for WA. I prefer to help others do whatever they want, wherever possible. I like WA. It's the best app of its kind, imo. I'm willing to concede to WA's way of doing things when it is locked into them due to early design decisions (after all, some parts of it are over 15 years old). I look hard for work-a-rounds for bugs due to this, rather than use another app. But I'm not above using other apps that support what I want to do with WA, when they work as well, or better, for me than WA's way of doing things.

In this case of perceived overall volume level, you seem to be saying the right RG is what WA does. I believe levels that are within a dB or 2 of each other are close enough and what's 'right' usually has some plus and minus to it.

[MrSinatra]

Originally Posted by Aminifu

Hi MrSinatra,

This back and forth gains nothing. You have your opinions and conclusions and I have mine. Both have been stated and understood, all we're doing is repeating ourselves.

honestly, i'm not sure you have understood mine.

Originally Posted by Aminifu

I like using mp3gain for what it does. It does album mode or track mode. I only use track mode so I don't care that WA's RG makes it easier to switch between them. If I ever want to use album mode, I can still use mp3gain to do so (with or without returning files to their original levels). MP3Gain lets me set a target level that I want, with or without clipping. I like that also; a little, low level, random clipping that does not cause distortion, that I can hear, is not a terrible thing, imo.

fine with me, but all that should be stated and made plain.

Originally Posted by Aminifu

IMO, it's a disservice to others to misrepresent facts.

i agree, thats why i have corrected things i see that you have said wrong. its not personal, i did not knock you for it. but mistakes should be corrected.

Originally Posted by Aminifu

The math shows a possible error of 0.5 dB not 0.75 db in the target level that mp3gain tries to achieve.

i'm no math genius, so if i'm all wet show your work and prove it. but if you can only adjust in 1.5db increments, then regardless of what your target level is, if its the same for a large batch of files, then some will be off by the max amount of 0.75db b/c thats half of 1.5db

for example:
desired target = 90db
files unaltered db = 92.25db

mp3gain then can take 1.5db or 3.0db off of the 92.25db file. that means either:

90.75
or
89.25

which means a 0.75 variance, not 0.5 as you have said.

Originally Posted by Aminifu

The article you linked to says: "The target loudness of almost all ReplayGain utilities is 89 dB SPL (an early departure from the proposal, endorsed by its author) — the ReplayGain proposal and SMPTE recommendation are 6dB lower." This does not say that the target level WA's RG uses is 89 dB and does not assure me that it is (almost all is not all). (Opinion: If it is not, I would not consider that a bug in WA. Whatever the WA devs decided to use is workable. If I don't like the result, WA now provides a preamp that lets me move the perceived RG overall volume level up or down.)

for gods sake, just test it. set the target in mp3gain to 89 and then compare the amount to what RG does prior to mp3gain on the same file.

i'll bet you whatever you like that winamp is using 89db, b/c if it wasn't, users of other apps would be hollering. besides, i've seen it discussed in the forums before.

Originally Posted by Aminifu

I did not admit using both WA's RG and mp3gain on the same mp3 does no harm, unless you mean harm in the sense of breaking something. I gave several reasons against using both on the same file, the least of which (imo) is the waste of time. I said both can be used on the same mp3, because that is a statement of fact. I clearly did not (and do not) endorse the practice. Taking statements or partial statements out of context does not change that.

i didn't take anything out of context. i'm just trying to make sense of what you are saying.

if there is a reason besides "wasting time" to NOT apply RG tags to files that already have mp3gain on them, please enlighten me. i have asked for this explanation several times now.

Originally Posted by Aminifu

You tend to push what you (and some others) refer to as best practices for WA.

and that has what to do with anything? don't obfuscate, stick to the merits of the argument.

Originally Posted by Aminifu

I prefer to help others do whatever they want, wherever possible. I like WA. It's the best app of its kind, imo. I'm willing to concede to WA's way of doing things when it is locked into them due to early design decisions (after all, some parts of it are over 15 years old). I look hard for work-a-rounds for bugs due to this, rather than use another app. But I'm not above using other apps that support what I want to do with WA, when they work as well, or better, for me than WA's way of doing things.

of course, who is arguing against that?

Originally Posted by Aminifu

In this case of perceived overall volume level, you seem to be saying the right RG is what WA does. I believe levels that are within a dB or 2 of each other are close enough and what's 'right' usually has some plus and minus to it.

thats funny, b/c earlier you said this:

"I don't believe the 1 or 2 dB will matter that much, but I still would not want my mp3 levels reduced by even that small amount"

so there is some kind of contradiction (or misunderstanding) in all of this somewhere... either it doesn't matter, or it does. and the preamp makes it moot anyway.

but regardless, i am not saying there is a right db level in the philosophic sense, i am saying that since 89db is the standard, thats what users should use, as its what apps using RG use, and then if they are unsatisfied with it, they can adjust the preamp.

i don't see whats problematic or controversial about that POV?

listen, i get it, u like mp3gain inspite of all its drawbacks, b/c you have a perceived need (which may in fact be real) to use it. fair enough.

but there is no legitimate argument i have heard yet to use mp3gain instead of RG if its not required by the operating environment; nor have i heard a legitimate reason to not apply RG tags to a file that already has been mp3gain'd.

if you want to write the FAQs on this topic, you have to be able to answer that.

[Aminifu]

Hi MrSinatra,

Yes I like mp3gain. I like WA's RG too. Both have their pros and cons. I've stated elsewhere that my biggest issues with WA's RG are that I can't use it with my portable digital music players and I can't set the target level. The 2nd thing I can work-a-round, the 1st I can't.

I'm not a math genius as your example showed. My point was that the error is small enough to ignore. I can accept that reasonable people can and will disagree. Saying that a 1 or 2 dB difference is not large enough to matter and saying I would not want to lose that 1 or 2 dB difference is not contradictory, imo. But again, I can accept that reasonable people can and will disagree.

I don't know how WA's RG does its thing. The WA devs have not told us. For mp3s, I assumed that it would operate on the global gain fields in real time like mp3gain operates on these fields directly. On that basis, I said both apps are equally accurate. It's always bad to assume. Without knowing exactly what WA's RG does or having an independent way to judge, it's hard to be sure about what either app really does. All we have is what each app shows us. It's not important enough to me to go looking for a 3rd app that will measure a song's dB level in a way consistent with the RG spec/proposal. I'm satisfied with what my ears tell me.

This all got started with your post #19 statement, "also, if you run mp3gain on your files, be sure to calc RG on them AFTER that". I took this to mean you were saying it should be done, not that it could be done. So I posted in #21, "Why do you encourage using WA's RG on mp3s that were 'adjusted' by mp3gain? The unpublished WA RG target db level could easily be different (and likely lower) than the user's selected target level used by mp3gain. That could end up with the apps working against each other". You've given your reasons for your statement, I've given feedback, you've given feedback, and I honestly think we've 'beat this horse' enough.

Since there is no one way to do things in this case, no absolute right or wrong, I don't know what a legitimate argument for or against would be. Some pros and cons were stated and I'm sure there are others.

As to stating facts, I am definitely not perfect myself, but I have one example to try to show what I mean (nothing personal). You stated, "but regardless, i am not saying there is a right db level in the philosophic sense, i am saying that since 89db is the standard, thats what users should use, as its what apps using RG use, and then if they are unsatisfied with it, they can adjust the preamp."

I would suggest a more accurate and clear rewrite would be, "but regardless, i am not saying there is a right db level in the philosophic sense, i am saying that since 89db is the de facto standard, thats what users should use, as its what almost all apps using RG use, and then if they are unsatisfied with what WA's RG uses, they can adjust the preamp WA provides.

Only a few words, here and there, (first 2 changes for accuracy and last 2 for clarity) but they make a difference, imo.

Aside from what some would call 'nit picking', my response to that statement is, I personally don't care what the (popular or official) standard is. If an app lets me directly use something else that my ears are happy with (mp3gain) or lets me adapt it to use something else that my ears are happy with (WA), then I will use what my ears are happy with, directly or indirectly as the situation dictates.

For example, if my mp3gain adjusted files were 91 dB and my RG files were 89 dB, I would set the preamp for files without RG tags to -2 dB and the overall preamp to 2 dB. Then all my files would play at close to 91 dB. Of course, if what mp3gain called 91 dB is sufficiently difference from what WA's RG called 91 dB, the preamp adjustments would have to be modified accordingly. If this caused my RG tagged files to sound bad (distortion from clipping), I would set both preamps to 0 dB (or something appropriate) and live with the 2 dB difference (which I would seldom notice) between the groups of files. I would not run my mp3s through WA's RG to reduce them to RG's 89 dB, just so that all files would be at the same numerical level. This is what I would do. I would not recommend it for anyone else. They could use the same approach or not. The point for me is stating what is possible and letting the user make the choice based on what their ears are happy with.