WASAPI Output Plugin 'Maiko' (VISTA & later only)

[Aminifu]

Hi big_blue,

I see from your "One for Nunz" report you have a few unofficial plug-ins other than MAD. It wont hurt to disable them to see if the crashes stop. The easiest way to disable a plug-in is to change its .dll extension to .bak.

I'm referring to:

CLIMAX FOR WINAMP, © 2000 BY STND [VIS_CLIMAX.dll]
Morphyre [vis_Morphyre.dll]
R4 -= r4.rabidhamster.org =- [vis_R4.dll]
Auto Close v1.4 [gen_autoclose.dll]

Enhancer v0.17 is unofficial too, but leave that enabled. I assume you installed DrO's wrapper for it. The 3 Visualization plug-ins are not active, but you never know until you prove they are not the problem by disabling them and still having the problem. Others have reported issues with some of the Portable Media Player plug-ins, disable all but the Nullsoft USB Device Plug-in v1.4 [pmp_usb.dll].

If the crashes stop, then 1 of the 9 plug-ins (10 including MAD) is the culprit. Add them back one at a time until the crashes return and you will have found the bad guy. If the crashes do not stop then feel free to re-enable them all, but I suggest only re-enable the Portable Media Player plug-ins that you actually need.

[big_blue]

Increasing my client buffer size to 800 fixed the Shared mode problem, thanks. Perhaps it will also decrease the crashes that occur during some song changes.

Aminifu, I actually got rid of the nullsoft mp3 plugin when I installed the MAD plugin (whoops!) Dunno where to find it online... I don't believe it's the cause, however, as other input plugins (flac, wma, etc.) have the same issue. I will delete the bin files and let you know how it goes.

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by SilverBird775

Seems fine to me.
5.1 (Surround) layout with a Side pair is a variation of 5.1 setup. 5.1 (DVD or dolby) is the one with Back's enabled.

Thanx for that info. That puts my big wrong theory about the .bin files to bed. So you think the noise may be due to buffer size. I hope so for big_blue's sake.

Nothing jumps out of big_blue's plug-in report other than MAD and maybe Auto Close that may be causing his crashes. I'm also thinking MAD may be the reason for losing shared mode, unless that is also related to buffer size.

[big_blue]

I am now getting an error saying

"Unable to set exclusive mode.
8007001F"

Shame this is so difficult. It seems I'm only finding more problems by trying to fix the existing ones.

Also, the shared mode issue is resolved. Of course, I can only have one without the other.

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by big_blue

Increasing my client buffer size to 800 fixed the Shared mode problem, thanks. Perhaps it will also decrease the crashes that occur during some song changes.

Aminifu, I actually got rid of the nullsoft mp3 plugin when I installed the MAD plugin (whoops!) Dunno where to find it online... I don't believe it's the cause, however, as other input plugins (flac, wma, etc.) have the same issue. I will delete the bin files and let you know how it goes.

Your .bins are fine. I did not know there were variations of the mixer 5.1 page. I just noticed you are running version 5.62 of WA, that is 4 versions back, the latest is 5.63. Download 5.63 and install in over 5.62. That will retain all your settings and get you the latest nullsoft mp3 plug-in back. Let's hope the latest version fixes the crashes.

If you installed MAD by renaming it to Nullsoft's mp3 plug-in's name, make a copy of it somewhere before installing 5.63 over 5.62.

[big_blue]

Just finished installing the new version of Winamp. Now Maiko just flat-out doesn't work. Shared simply doesn't play anything, Exclusive gives me the same error as before. With and without the MAD plugin selected (I already knew MAD wasn't the source of the problem) I get no music. Any ideas?

[big_blue]

It seems it took me completely taking the MAD plugin out of the plugins folder to get it working again. So far it seems that Shared and Exclusive mode are working fine (so far... let's hope this lasts). Maybe it's just me but I feel like the delay is fixed as well... I'll let you know if all is still running smoothly after a little more testing. My music sounds very different without the MAD plugin... Not necessarily better, but different. Something I could definitely get used to. Again, I'll keep you all updated as I explore more.

Also, the Winamp spectrum analyzer seems to just a scrolling sine wave... Dunno what that means but it's interesting!

[Aminifu]

With WA shutdown, go to your user/appdata/roaming/winamp folder and delete or move the Maiko.bin files. There will be some numbers between the word maiko and the extension. When you restart WA, Maiko will recreate the .bin files when you start a song and resetup the matrix. The first time without the .bin files Maiko will use it's defaults.

[big_blue]

I can still hear pops every so often in the rear speakers when certain audio plays through them. Could it be clipping? The rears aren't set above 1 in the mixer. Is it more likely that it's just my music? Or the delay setup?

I also notice that the input (and output) bit sizes have been changed to 16 bit. Is there any way to configure the nullsoft mpeg plugin to work in 24 bit?

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by big_blue

It seems it took me completely taking the MAD plugin out of the plugins folder to get it working again. So far it seems that Shared and Exclusive mode are working fine (so far... let's hope this lasts). Maybe it's just me but I feel like the delay is fixed as well... I'll let you know if all is still running smoothly after a little more testing. My music sounds very different without the MAD plugin... Not necessarily better, but different. Something I could definitely get used to. Again, I'll keep you all updated as I explore more.

Also, the Winamp spectrum analyzer seems to just a scrolling sine wave... Dunno what that means but it's interesting!

That's a relief. You were sure it wasn't MAD and I was pretty sure it was due to my prior bad experience. Yes it sounds different. All these different apps affect the sound, but hopefully not in a bad way. You probably need to readjust Enhancer too since the Nullsoft plug-in sends it different info than MAD did.

I've seen the scrolling sine wave. Sometimes it stops doing that when I stop and restart the song. It may be affected by your buffer size. You may be able to let Maiko determine the size again.

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by big_blue

I can still hear pops every so often in the rear speakers when certain audio plays through them. Could it be clipping? The rears aren't set above 1 in the mixer. Is it more likely that it's just my music? Or the delay setup?

I also notice that the input (and output) bit sizes have been changed to 16 bit. Is there any way to configure the nullsoft mpeg plugin to work in 24 bit?

Clipping is a good guess. SilverBird775 had to disable Maiko's clipping detector. Hopefully he will be able to re-enable it soon. Now that you're using the Nullsoft mp3 input plug-in, the limit clipping option in the WA General Preferences may help. The option is on the playback equalizer tab and should already be on, but you should check it.

The input bit depth is from your music and is the right value. Look at the next to the last option on the exclusive mode page. If the box on the left is checked, remove the check and use the selection box on the right to select a bit depth. I suggest 24+8 padded.

Most of the check boxes on that page should be empty. How is yours setup?

[big_blue]

Just unchecked that, says it's outputting 24 bit now. i have everything unchecked but "Disable volume control" and the three sample rate boxes, which have a min of 44100 and a max of 192000. My Windows mixer is set for 44800, and when I uncheck the "Slave to input channel when enabled" box the music starts skipping, crashing winamp sometimes in the past.

[big_blue]

... and now for some reason I'm getting that error again for exclusive mode
"Unable to set exclusive mode.
8007001F"
Wonderful. I am beyond tired, haha. I feel that if I continue working on this I will go insane.

EDIT: I've temporarily fixed it by checking "Slave to input channels when enabled". Honestly don't even know what I just fixed, haha. That DOES mean I'm using MAIKO's mixer, right?

EDIT 2: It seems that checking that box changes the mixer to a 2.0 setup, which is not what I want. Unchecking it, however, gives me that error again. Could someone help clarify? Also still getting popping in the rear speakers when using delay.

[Aminifu]

Your sound chip should be able to handle more than 44800, but let's go with that because that is what is in the Windows control box. Your Windows box is set for 24/44800 right, not 16/44800? The enable exclusive mode is checked and the option below that is not, in the Windows control box, right?

Clear the top box beside "Slave to etc" and put 44800 in the box on the right. Check the next box down and put 44100 in the box to the right. Check the next box down and put 44800 in the box to the right. Check the box at the bottom next to "Free device etc". Those should be the only 3 boxes checked, except for the top box when you want to run in exclusive mode. The only other control is the bit depth, I suggested "24+8". You can also try "Best available".

I have my upsampling values set to 96000, 44100, and 96000. Windows is set for 24/96000.

Make these changes while a song is playing. Maiko ignores changes made when a song is not playing, on the mixer page too, except now for the delay settings (and maybe the input balance settings, SilverBird775 has not clarified whether a song needs to be playing or not for those controls).

Stop the song, then restart the song and check that all your changes are still the same. Shutdown WA, restart it and start a song, then check that all your Maiko settings are still the same.

One last thing, pertaining to how your music sounds. Now that you're using the Nullsoft plug-in again, check the WA equalizer. I suggest you start out with all the controls set to the mid line (no increase or decrease in the frequency bands). Small adjustments can be made later after everything else is working. You maybe should turn off Enhancer too until Maiko is stable. Check the control panel for the Realtek chip. Make sure all sound effects and equalizer controls are turned off. Make sure the bit depth and sampling rate is the same as you set in the Windows control box, 24/48000.

The bit depth and sampling rate should be the same in the Realtek control, the Windows control, and Maiko exclusive mode to avoid conflicts.

[SilverBird775]

not clarified whether a song needs to be playing or not for those controls [balance tab]
As you please. As a general rule for a matrix\mode setup you need to start music at least once so the correct matrix will be choosed.

I can still hear pops every so often in the rear speakers when certain audio plays through them. Could it be clipping? The rears aren't set above 1 in the mixer.
They are set a LOT above 1. MAX = abs(0.95) + abs(-0.95) = 1.9 which is a massive amplification. Even when the signals are summed in antiphase it does not mean the Left & Righ channels are highly interosculated anytime. When the signals are going naturally antiphase they become inphase by matrix settings and you are getting almost double amplification and a powerful clip. Keep the line sum below 1.0.

Slave to input channels when enabled
Exclusive mode option. No matrixing or balancing of any kind, instead the hardware will be reprogrammed to adopt the input file channel setup. See manual for more details. Shared mode cannot disable the matrixing except when the input and hardware matching.

[SilverBird775]

big_blue
8007001F
Try to scale down both the buffer size and delays.

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by SilverBird775

They are set a LOT above 1. MAX = abs(0.95) + abs(-0.95) = 1.9 which is a massive amplification. Even when the signals are summed in antiphase it does not mean the Left & Righ channels are highly interosculated anytime. When the signals are going naturally antiphase they become inphase by matrix settings and you are getting almost double amplification and a powerful clip. Keep the line sum below 1.0.

I do not understand any of that. I need to look up the definitions of the terminology. For now, what I can understand is that its best to leave the mixer values at the automate defaults. That is fine with me, now that I have the delays and input balance control. I was only adjusting the matrix for room correction adjustments. That is no longer necessary

[SilverBird775]

It is simple. Thats just primitive physics for a waves of any kind.

-1.0 inverts the signal, 1.0 just copy it. Sum of both cancel the signal to zero, we know it because we assumed the signal inverts itself. But our signals are sourced on different input channels and may have no correlation with each other. Yes it may but it may not. So it does not matter which one was inverted and which one is not, they just random signals and will give 2.0 in sum as a maximum. They may cancel each other but they may resonate as well.

[big_blue]

Originally Posted by Aminifu

Your sound chip should be able to handle more than 44800, but let's go with that because that is what is in the Windows control box. Your Windows box is set for 24/44800 right, not 16/44800? The enable exclusive mode is checked and the option below that is not, in the Windows control box, right?

Clear the top box beside "Slave to etc" and put 44800 in the box on the right. Check the next box down and put 44100 in the box to the right. Check the next box down and put 44800 in the box to the right. Check the box at the bottom next to "Free device etc". Those should be the only 3 boxes checked, except for the top box when you want to run in exclusive mode. The only other control is the bit depth, I suggested "24+8". You can also try "Best available".

I have my upsampling values set to 96000, 44100, and 96000. Windows is set for 24/96000.

Make these changes while a song is playing. Maiko ignores changes made when a song is not playing, on the mixer page too, except now for the delay settings (and maybe the input balance settings, SilverBird775 has not clarified whether a song needs to be playing or not for those controls).

Stop the song, then restart the song and check that all your changes are still the same. Shutdown WA, restart it and start a song, then check that all your Maiko settings are still the same.

One last thing, pertaining to how your music sounds. Now that you're using the Nullsoft plug-in again, check the WA equalizer. I suggest you start out with all the controls set to the mid line (no increase or decrease in the frequency bands). Small adjustments can be made later after everything else is working. You maybe should turn off Enhancer too until Maiko is stable. Check the control panel for the Realtek chip. Make sure all sound effects and equalizer controls are turned off. Make sure the bit depth and sampling rate is the same as you set in the Windows control box, 24/48000.

The bit depth and sampling rate should be the same in the Realtek control, the Windows control, and Maiko exclusive mode to avoid conflicts.

Thanks, I set it up like you said, but used 96000 as the sample rate instead and it sounds good. I'll look into the equalizer soon too.

Originally Posted by SilverBird775

not clarified whether a song needs to be playing or not for those controls [balance tab]
As you please. As a general rule for a matrix\mode setup you need to start music at least once so the correct matrix will be choosed.

I can still hear pops every so often in the rear speakers when certain audio plays through them. Could it be clipping? The rears aren't set above 1 in the mixer.
They are set a LOT above 1. MAX = abs(0.95) + abs(-0.95) = 1.9 which is a massive amplification. Even when the signals are summed in antiphase it does not mean the Left & Righ channels are highly interosculated anytime. When the signals are going naturally antiphase they become inphase by matrix settings and you are getting almost double amplification and a powerful clip. Keep the line sum below 1.0.

I believe that solved the issue of the rears clipping. It was very simple, only took the actual developer to notice it, haha.

I'm not sure how the math is done here but is it advisable to use different signal values? like, for instance

.50 -.43
-.43 .50

If you have a recommendation as to setting the rears up I would be very grateful, as I like the effect of having the rears put out channel-specific sounds, however I also have to level them out with the front side speakers. If I want their sum to be around 93 (during the antiphase/inphase things) what is an optimal way to accomplish that?

[big_blue]

Also, could I keep my room correction settings enabled in the Realtek Audio Manager? Or will they always directly affect my Maiko setup? I'd like to have my speakers configured for games and movies, as the rears aren't naturally as present as the fronts (in that they are closer). Or does Exclusive mode's mixer completely override that?

[mark007]

Guys, I have a Xonar HDAV Deluxe analog, and have some applications like mpc-hc using wasapi through reclock, which I have set to use 24bit, 96hz output which is the best combination there as it resamples the audio to keep things in sync.

I then want to have winamp output 16bit 44.1khz for audio.

Is this possible without changing any windows settings. Like in the windows 7 control panel, do the "Speakers Properties" -> "Default Format", get used when maiko plugin is used in exclusive mode for example? I thought it wouldn't get used when in exclusive mode, but I just changed it a few minutes ago during exclusive playback from maiko, and got a device invalided error message and winamp crashed, that now has me thinking it does still have an effect?

I'm just confused, if anyone has any recommendations on how I can get the audio output I want through winamp + mpc-hc using wasapi, without having to change any windows or xonar control panel bitdepth or frequency settings.

[SilverBird775]

Originally Posted by big_blue

.50 -.43
-.43 .50

If you have a recommendation as to setting the rears up I would be very grateful, as I like the effect of having the rears put out channel-specific sounds, however I also have to level them out with the front side speakers. If I want their sum to be around 93 (during the antiphase/inphase things) what is an optimal way to accomplish that?

I'd go for a real stuff over imaginable, more actual data.
.8 -.13
-.13 .8
Also slightly delaying the side channels (purposefully distorting their actual virtual distance) may break strong stereo-source-inherited dependencies and give more space and natural reverberation.

Be creative!

Originally Posted by big_blue

Also, could I keep my room correction settings enabled in the Realtek Audio Manager? Or will they always directly affect my Maiko setup? I'd like to have my speakers configured for games and movies, as the rears aren't naturally as present as the fronts (in that they are closer). Or does Exclusive mode's mixer completely override that?

As you like. The exclusive mode override the Realtek settings i suppose. I'm noot keen to any extra features though.

Originally Posted by mark007

I then want to have winamp output 16bit 44.1khz for audio.

[mark007]

Fantastic!!! Thanks!!

[big_blue]

You guys have been a real help in this process. I think I have the settings just right and understand everything enough to be able to handle it on my own. If I have any more questions for any reason I'll let you know. The plugin sounds fantastic, as does my music. I appreciate it!

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by big_blue

You guys have been a real help in this process. I think I have the settings just right and understand everything enough to be able to handle it on my own. If I have any more questions for any reason I'll let you know. The plugin sounds fantastic, as does my music. I appreciate it!

Glad to hear things are finally working for you.

Your mobo is working properly for it's speaker connectors. Yours works different from mine and many boards I'm aware of, that's why I thought things weren't normal. Sorry for the mis-information. Everything is explained in the board's manual. If you need one, it can be downloaded from the web (link below).

http://www.gigabyte.com/products/pro...px?pid=3138#ov

Good luck and have fun!

[big_blue]

EDIT: solved the issue

[ThurstonX]

FYI: avast! just reported the DLL ("Version 0.53.test.02 {2012.09.18}") as a threat and moved it to the chest. This would have to be based on their latest definition file (120922-0), since it wasn't reported as such yesterday when I ran Winamp with the DLL installed.

When I now scan the zip file (which avast! must have done when I first downloaded it days ago, as I have real-time protection fully loaded in avast!), it reports the DLL within as "Win32:Malware-gen".

Just thought you should know.

[big_blue]

So I have my levels set in Windows so my rear speakers are at full volume and the fronts/center are at like half volume, which just about perfectly balances the front and rear. If I have all the mixer levels in Maiko set to full (1.) volume, will I encounter clipping or distortion? Also, what are the benefits to disabling the volume control?

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by big_blue

If I have all the mixer levels in Maiko set to full (1.) volume, will I encounter clipping or distortion?

That depends on your whether the source files contain over-amplified music and/or the WA equalizer and/or Enhancer DSP plug-in settings are too aggressive. Also your X-530 is a low power speaker system (25 watt sub, 15.5 watt center, and 7.5 watt satellites) that will distort the sound if driven to hard. My X-540's sound better at high volume with low Maiko values and with higher Maiko values at low volume.

Until Maiko's Peak output loudness detector is re-enabled, you will have to depend on your ears to determine the source of any distortion. Listen with just Maiko, then add in the equalizer and/or Enhancer.

If you find that your source files are over-amplified, the equalizer may help reduce clipping and/or you could try applying WA's ReplayGain adjustments to them. ReplayGain will not only level the volume of the source files, but could prevent clipping.

[big_blue]

Thanks for the advice.

[big_blue]

What would you recommend for a cutoff frequency for my sub? I don't want it too boomy (not living alone), so I have it set to 80. Is that a good idea for a low power speaker?

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by big_blue

What would you recommend for a cutoff frequency for my sub? I don't want it too boomy (not living alone), so I have it set to 80. Is that a good idea for a low power speaker?

The "Magic Frequencies" article, I provided the link to earlier, says the sub frequencies are anything below 60Hz. I have my cutoff set to 100Hz. I recommend whatever sounds good to you from 200Hz on down.

I also have Enhancer's Harmonic Bass set to 1 and the Harmonic Bass Range set to 6, with some low end (and high end) boost from the equalizer. Your music may benefit from something totally different. I too have to be careful jacking the volume when other family members are around, but those settings also work for me at normal levels.

I also live in a house with a little space around it, so I don't usually have to worry about disturbing the neighbors. These little speakers can get really loud !!!

[big_blue]

Hey again, just wanted to check with you guys, would it make sense to lessen the value of a speaker's delay in an effort to simulate space in my room? And what amount would make a noticeable but not destructive difference? I have the delays down by .5 (samples) on my rear speakers right now, trying to decide if it sounds right.

[SilverBird775]

If you are going to make a channel dependency decouple delay (so they would not play flatly the same beat the same time) then try to not make the delay shift too large. The very little shift from the real distance may work very well creating space illusion but a too large value may start to break the rhythm piling and crumpling the beats. Besides the only simple shift do not add any additional reverberations to the sound naturally expected so it will turns out all false and unnatural very soon.

Could not recommend the exact numbers but i expect them to be rather small, the shift from the real distance i mean. The true unadjusted distance values (delays) are supposed to give the true unadjusted sound form.

IMO playing with a real speakers physical positions indeed change the room natural reverberation some way so you should make your setup to sound okay first wth just any basic software. I remember my first DVD player setup, the only correct speaker placement did REALLY work, the software adjustment just make them sound perfectly finished. You have to remember there is no software able to fix the unpleasant room reverberation. But in many situations the basic stereo systems are much easier to setup and giving even better results for the odd rooms.

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by big_blue

Also, could I keep my room correction settings enabled in the Realtek Audio Manager? Or will they always directly affect my Maiko setup? I'd like to have my speakers configured for games and movies, as the rears aren't naturally as present as the fronts (in that they are closer). Or does Exclusive mode's mixer completely override that?

Hi big_blue,

On my system Maiko does not override the Realtek Audio Manager effects (or the similar app for my sound card). Some effects 'play nice' with Maiko and some don't. In fact, I prefer my sound card's equalizer to WA's.

I suggest you try turning off your room correction settings enabled in the Realtek Audio Manage to see if that changes anything. I agree these effects can be helpful with movies and games, but they mostly just interfere with my WA + Enhancer + Maiko setup.

[Aminifu]

Hi SilverBird775,

I'm still enjoying v.0.53.test.02. I forgot to mention I noticed a bigger variation in the playback start delay on my system using the enhanced resampler. In exclusive mode, when the "Free device when idle" option is enabled the delay is about 65 seconds. When this option is not enabled the delay is about 35 seconds. Of course, it is also about 35 seconds in shared mode.

I guess checking for idle extends the setup time for the enhanced resampler. Maybe you can delay the idle checking until after the enhanced resampler is setup. Then the start delay may take close to the same time, regardless if the "Free device when idle" option is enabled or not.

I don't understand why this option is provided. Why would there be a need to free the sound device in exclusive mode anyway? Sorry if I missed any explanation for this, earlier in the thread (like I did with the Loudness War discussion). I only had this option enabled, because it needed to be in v0.52, to allow mixer matrix changes to be saved between WA sessions.

[SilverBird775]

Aminifu,
That is interesting observation, thank you. My guess somehow the resempler doubles reset when the first reset takes its enormous time.

Free device when idle (quote from the User Manual)
When no audio is playing the plugin leaves device free until the new winamp play task will be assigned. There is a risk another application may use this time window to occupy the device for themself, stealthy or by user consent. The other winamp plugins may occupy the device as well.
This option have no effect on gapless. It decide what to do with the output when the winamp is going to play nothing.

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by SilverBird775

This option have no effect on gapless. It decide what to do with the output when the winamp is going to play nothing.

I can understand that this could be a benefit, allowing other apps to use the sound device when WA is not using it. But if another app gained exclusive use, it would have to be shutdown to allow WA to regain use of the sound device, right?

I can't test this because WA + Maiko is the only app I have that takes exclusive use of the sound device.

Version 0.53.test.04 seems to function correctly, but it does not display the mixer panel correctly.

[schulze]

[2012 10 01][v 0.53.test.04]
! 0.53.test.02 hotfix: antivirus massed false alarms.

that's what i was waiting for...

but unfortunately i have the same problem as someone above: in shared mode music is playing for only half a second then it drops but exclusive mode works just fine.
it's the same for all 0.53 builds so far. everything at default settings.
any ideas?

using 0.52 until shared mode is working again.

[big_blue]

try increasing your buffer length (800, 1000) until it plays, stopping it, and setting it to automatic (0). it happened to me a bunch of times and i'm pretty sure that's what i did to remedy it.