Old 2nd January 2016, 21:30   #1321
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Shame it had to take this long to get something concrete on progress. All the hearsay and rumours has not done Winamp any good at all.
I think one word summarizes most of this..politics.

Anyway keeping it positive, thanks to DrO. DrO and Winamp just went together.
Wish the new team all the best moving forward.

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Old 3rd January 2016, 15:39   #1322
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Wish the new team all the best moving forward.
New team? What new team?
Benski says "There hasn't been a development team."
DJEgg gives no information about a new team.

It looks more like a few friends enjoying a hobby together.
And there's nothing wrong with that.

Radionomy has provided little or no information about a "reborn" Winamp.
Apparently, that is because there was no corporate interest in continued development.
Maybe Vivendi will change that, but don't hold your breath.

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Old 3rd January 2016, 16:28   #1323
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It looks more like a few friends enjoying a hobby together.
They definitely don't have a good time. According to Benski they have to remove some libraries they don't have the right to re-distribute:
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this release will be just be a small update to replace or remove software libraries that were not transferred during the sale (such as Gracenote).
If they are not able to do that guess what will happen ...

In such a situation the only one on board with know-how, DrO, was forced to leave / left. Fortunately they where able to hire Benski ...
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Old 3rd January 2016, 17:58   #1324
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Could anyone from Radionomy simply give a timeline?
Anyway thanks a lot DrO!
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Old 3rd January 2016, 19:19   #1325
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Fortunately they where able to hire Benski ...
Why assume Benski was hired?

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Old 3rd January 2016, 20:28   #1326
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has the llama's ass been whip enough yet? still wating on on some fixes, like notification show above windowed fullscreen programs consistently
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Old 3rd January 2016, 21:25   #1327
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Why assume Benski was hired?
DJEgg writes:
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So for the past few months, Benski has been helping out with coding new/replacement decoders (as previously discussed), amongst other things.
I'm assuming that he's doing that not for free. I'm assuming that he's doing that on a freelance basis (same as DrO seemed not being an employee).
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Old 4th January 2016, 10:09   #1328
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Ok...here it is....
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Originally Posted by DJ Egg View Post
There's still also a fair bit of work to be done with CD ripping/burning (Sonic) and Gracenote replacement...
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Originally Posted by DJ Egg View Post
I'll keep you all informed as best I can.
Like I said...unforeseen circumstances. This really hasn't been easy for me.

And there we have it....

Happy New Year
Thank you for the info and keep up good work. Happy new year to you, too.
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Old 4th January 2016, 10:18   #1329
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I have faith. Vivendi already owns a big portfolio of media such as Ubisoft and Deezer. Keep the Winamp flag raised.
So do I. I do not think that the time will ever come back when people will pay for a music player but they are still willing to pay for a good service. Now that telecommunication companies are giving away free cell phones with their names on it, it is also possible that companies like Vivendi may support a free (or even opensource) music player with their names on it.

Long live Vivendi Winamp!
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Old 5th January 2016, 22:21   #1330
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Happy New Year, Winamp lovers. Thanks for the recent updates.

Is anyone else finding that Winamp 5.666, running on an up to date Windows 8.1, no longer unloads from memory when exited? Not sure how long this has been going on, but not too long.

In Task Manager (also in Process Hacker, Process Explorer), after shutting down Winamp (Alt-F4, or clicking the x, etc.) winamp.exe continues to run.

I discovered this when troubleshooting the occasional loss of all audio on my laptop (which I don't think is related to anything having to do with Winamp... just mentioning it in case somehow it rings a bell for someone.)
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Old 5th January 2016, 23:08   #1331
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Originally Posted by wtfwtfwtfwtf View Post
Is anyone else finding that Winamp 5.666, running on an up to date Windows 8.1, no longer unloads from memory when exited? Not sure how long this has been going on, but not too long.
I think you're better off posting that in the technical support section if you haven't already.

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Old 6th January 2016, 05:10   #1332
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I have been thinking about the problem of dependencies, but without knowing which need replacing it is difficult to make suggestions.

Don't jump on anything that follows as I am just thinking out-loud and trying to connect some dots.

The OldUnreal project faces the same problems/restrictions in order to continue the development of audio support for older Unreal engine games, while also staying legal and free.
They have 1 more limitation we don't have, which may be what helped to find the solutions.
OS support. Whatever they use needs to be rolled for multiple OS support (development is done on Linux).

Originally the updated audio was built around FMod, but has now moved to libxmp.
This has the benefit of a well supported and maintained project, and a massive file type support.
Some formats are dealt separately by using;
ogg vorbis (BSD-License) FLAC (BSD-License) and mpg123 (LGPL 2.1)

This has kept distro size down to a level that people still living in 1999 are happy with
You can see the history of the Unreal Tournament build here as an example
http://www.oldunreal.com/cgi-bin/yab...1399614690/0#0

For our purposes, we can use mpg123 as a default for reading and provide a link to the Lame MP3 disto so people can add write ability.
Fetching the missing file from a server after install is also another option. This allows you to present the licence for each such item.
If the zip plugin is made a standard, then Winamp can look inside a zip and extract a named file.
I use a tool (WebZip Explorer) that lets you download a file from a zip, rather than the whole archive, Winamp could do the same and so fetch the needed lame file from the "official" site.

XMPlayer can update any installed plugin from the repository, avoiding the need for total updates.
This reduces distribution bandwidth requirements and allows for easy deployment of security updates.
Winamp should follow this model.

As long as Winamp has DirectShow support, it can fallback to whatever the OS has installed for MPEG support. I can force Media Player Classic to use the official Fraunhofer CoDecs if I really want to.
DirectShow already allows this in Winamp.

FFShow is the core of VLC, the Gabest MPC branches, Audacity, and many other free multimedia projects.
I have seen it implemented in many ways, usually with a large footprint due to non-optimised compiling (eg.VLC), but it can be small (eg. MPC).
The full FFDShow install for Windows also comes with limited support for Winamp plugins, which although not very functional, is at least a proof of concept.
Perhaps it is time to ditch the old DSP system and make Winamp use VST DSPs instead. We would gain more than we lose long term.

In theory I would be happy with a version of Winamp that supports whatever whatever my OS supports.
I am used to this in Linux and Amiga, and it means my file support can be newer than my player.
Out of the box support would vary, but post install downloads via Winamp itself could fill any blanks.



All this fuss about Gracenote support seems to have got in the way of us just having a normal functioning CDDB lookup like almost every other software on the planet, thus also allowing the use of a local version shared by other software.
Exact Audio Copy relies on it by default, and has a user made alternative that includes art and lyric fetching. It also includes a gracenote plugin that allows 10 lookups before it needs you to have a gracenote account.
Is there some reason we cannot do the same ?
Even when we had a working Gracenote plugin, I would have rather used my local CDDB repository, and added my data to a more used system.
NOTE: As I would rather trust EAC for CD rips, the lack of Gracenote has not been a problem for me.

Images can be sourced from Discogs, Last.fm or Amazon.
Discogs and Last.fm APIs could easily provide art and name suggestions (it is what they are made for). If you see the info was posted by the band or label you can assume the names and pictures are correct.
This relationship could possibly be used to weight the displayed results.

Future Winamp lookup plugins should be modular and make the assumption that any source will be temporary, or that a user may prefer another.
We need a situation where we don't need new plugins, we only need new URLs
The way you currently add new online services to the media library is a very good example.


Final thoughts
We have a lot of knowledgeable visitors with backgrounds in various projects, if we had a list of the things we have to drop, we can crowd-source the solutions.
Keeping the development so tightly wrapped means that too small a pool of brains is being used.

Most software houses are now becoming very open about development and we get to see the painful process of making something work.
If Radionomy are to make Winamp free or opensource, then perhaps development style needs to change.
Look at the ex chief of Opera. He took his experience in the industry and decided that if you are to give the public what they want, you need to work with them, hence Vivaldi Beta is already the most flexible browser you can get out of the box.
Vivaldi is not a big company (has grown since the browser was released), and the casual relationship with the users builds more trust than dealing with the Wizard of Oz (faceless people behind the curtains), and does not make the small team seem amateur or unprofessional.
Many theoretically big companies don't like to break the illusion that there are swarms of workers in various departments, and so stay anonymous behind official statements and PR releases.
It keeps company value high on the stock market, as once floated, a company is only worth what people think it is worth, not what it is worth for real.

The Wizard of Radionomy may not want to come out from behind the curtains, but the longer we go without public interaction and signs of a direction, the more likely we will see a Winamp clone being developed by someone else.
They bought the Winamp code and imagery, not the concepts that make Winamp what it is.
They don't own much of what makes it indispensable, and I don't think that they realise what they bought (like all the owners of Amiga).
They only thought about the potential it "could" have, not what it is.
We can forgive that and help move things forward.


Example programs that download extra CoDecs to avoid distribution problems and minimise disto size.
LameXP http://muldersoft.com (WMA support)
RIOT Image Optimiser http://luci.criosweb.ro/riot/ (PNG Optimisers)

Mashups ? Smells like a lot of "Fishy Business" to me.
Visit my label at www.last.fm/label/Fishy+Business for musical education.
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Old 6th January 2016, 18:58   #1333
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DrFlay,
While your suggestions are great, these things have all been considered, even in the AOL ownership years.
The problem with implementing many of these items in Winamp comes down to the fact that, despite being free-of-charge, it is a commercial project. This severely limits the scope of services that it can use, and also limits the use of open source codecs.

For example, the FFMPEG FAQ gives the following warning about using it in commercial projects (https://www.ffmpeg.org/legal.html)
Quote:
Q: Bottom line: Should I be worried about patent issues if I use FFmpeg?
A: Are you a private user working with FFmpeg for your own personal purposes? If so, there is remarkably little reason to be concerned. Are you using FFmpeg in a commercial software product? Read on to the next question...

Q: Is it perfectly alright to incorporate the whole FFmpeg core into my own commercial product?
A: You might have a problem here. There have been cases where companies have used FFmpeg in their products. These companies found out that once you start trying to make money from patented technologies, the owners of the patents will come after their licensing fees. Notably, MPEG LA is vigilant and diligent about collecting for MPEG-related technologies.
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Old 6th January 2016, 20:01   #1334
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Images can be sourced from Discogs, Last.fm or Amazon.
My Wish
Cover/Album Art Viewer EX

Where going to my love?
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Old 7th January 2016, 13:59   #1335
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@Benski:

Quote:
Notably, MPEG LA is vigilant and diligent about collecting for MPEG-related technologies.
But wouldn't that be the case no matter which MPEG technology you use - also if you use other libraries than FFmpeg? Wouldn't that even mean that you would have to remove anything MPEG/MP3/AAC related from Winamp?
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Old 7th January 2016, 17:04   #1336
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I expect the new owners will have Winamp continue native support for a basic set of formats (and pay any associated fees). Whatever codecs are not included in the official releases (to avoid large licensing fees), each user can download and install for themselves. No different than what some users do now to improve Winamp's playback compatibility with some video file formats.

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Old 7th January 2016, 17:43   #1337
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Hopefully the next version allows you to also remove all traces of the video player (and browser)... they're just a nuisance to me when using a unified skin, and i'm sure other users who use Winamp as only a music player.

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Old 7th January 2016, 18:57   #1338
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Hopefully the next version allows you to also remove all traces of the video player (and browser)... they're just a nuisance to me when using a unified skin, and i'm sure other users who use Winamp as only a music player.
You can disable all traces of the video player now. There is an option that can be added to the "winamp.ini" file (but you need to be using the current Winamp version). I use Winamp to play music videos and audio files and don't remember the exact wording of this option, but you can search the forums for it.

I also use the internal browser. The skin I'm using will let me switch to the browser and have it automatically search Google for album art for the song that is playing. This skin's browser is also not crippled and can be used in the same ways that an external browser can be used.

I don't mind options to disable these features that you don't like, but I want them to remain for those, like me, who do use them.

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Old 7th January 2016, 19:40   #1339
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I don't mind options to disable these features that you don't like, but I want them to remain for those, like me, who do use them.
Thanks, i'll check that out to see about it. Yeah, I think it's best to have it optional, which is one of the best parts of Winamp and its plugins, but even removing the necessary plugins still leaves the 'video' section of the skin and you can't really get rid of the browser. To each is their own, I hope the next version is more customizable in that sense, but I doubt it will be.

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Old 8th January 2016, 00:36   #1340
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Nullsoft.... uggh...

I'm still a fan of Nullsoft.. Still have a copy of Winamp v2.05 .. does everything the new ones do except play videos.. I don't need videos... Winamp 3 was garbage. Winamp 4 fixed Winamp 3 and made things work right.. Winamp 5 is just too much in one package... v2.05 is freaking fast in comparison hahah... This new ownership is just about marketability, nothing to do with functionality... Do yourself a favor and torrent Winamp 2.05.... If you want video use VLC or youtube lol.
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Old 8th January 2016, 00:42   #1341
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i can't live without the media library. latest version has a ton of fixes, and you only install what you want/need...

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Old 8th January 2016, 01:13   #1342
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so is winamp dead? 2 years without updates, no news about relevant development...
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Old 8th January 2016, 01:17   #1343
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plenty of news. try reading a few posts before this

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Old 8th January 2016, 01:30   #1344
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Quote:
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I'm still a fan of Nullsoft.. Still have a copy of Winamp v2.05 .. does everything the new ones do except play videos.. I don't need videos... Winamp 3 was garbage. Winamp 4 fixed Winamp 3 and made things work right.. Winamp 5 is just too much in one package... v2.05 is freaking fast in comparison hahah... This new ownership is just about marketability, nothing to do with functionality... Do yourself a favor and torrent Winamp 2.05.... If you want video use VLC or youtube lol.
Winamp 3 wasn't garbage, it was alpha and shouldn't have been released to the general public as the next version until it was at least as good as winamp 2.91. It had a lot of potential, and it's a shame it died off.

Winamp 4 never existed.

Winamp 5 is winamp 2 with a few things like modern skins being implemented into it, which is an improvement for larger monitors nowadays.

I wouldn't torrent winamp because torrents can be questionable at times. I would suggest going to oldversion.com or oldapps.com instead.

Also, I am surprised you are still on 2.05. Not saying that's bad, but video I don't believe was added until about v2.9

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Old 8th January 2016, 04:22   #1345
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Q: Is it perfectly alright to incorporate the whole FFmpeg core into my own commercial product?
A: Winamp is no longer a commercial product.

BTW. I am well aware Open Source is not an option, however it is refried.
I wrote under the assumption that Winamp was going to become free and dropping the Pro option.
Under the existing setup I understand the problem, but if no money is made directly from the Winamp product, then it should not matter how the parent company makes its revenue.
eg. accessing their site via the online services section.
Using Winamp as the access system becomes as arbitrary as which browser you use, unless it is the only resource it can access.

I gave examples where other products you can pay for have simply off-loaded the problem but also supply an integrated solution post-install.
In almost all cases, no licence requirement is needed for the ability to read, and most of the vendors create support files when they are not available for popular software (inc. commercial software).
eg. ftp://ftp1.fraunhofer.de/institute/iis/amm/mp3surround/
http://www.mp3prozone.com/download_winamp.htm
Usually you just have to ask them or give them incentive, and they will provide the limits you can use.
The same restriction of no writing MP3s

Looking at the folders of various software packages I have, I found some good examples.
Last.fm Scrobbler and Mixlr which is a common enough type of program that allows you to DJ online.
The software is entirely free, and entirely free to use. They make the money from subscriptions to their site, not the software.
Both use Open Source and GPLed files.

Looking in the folder for Reaper, I see "FFmpeg.dll".
Reaper is available to use completely free and they make money from the honesty of peoples using it, buying a licence.
It may not be as well known as its more commercial rivals, but it should be squarely in the target range of upsetting the FFmpeg project, more than Winamp ever could, because it can make them more money than Winamp ever could.

Many commercial companies have give-away software made with other freeware, I don't see what is so different about a free Winamp.
I would question whether Radionomy have contacted any of the problem parties, or just looked at the online statements.

If Winamp turned into a dedicated online shop like Spotify and iTunes, then I don't just see a problem with licences. I see a problem with upset users leaving.

Q: Is Winamp really going to be free, and no money made directly from using it ? eg. Unlocking something or buying credit to use ?

Mashups ? Smells like a lot of "Fishy Business" to me.
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Old 8th January 2016, 13:57   #1346
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I wouldn't call that relevant development.. getting rid of AOL trash. What about new features? Bugfixes?
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Old 8th January 2016, 15:10   #1347
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I wouldn't call that relevant development.. getting rid of AOL trash. What about new features? Bugfixes?
Hi Seyss

DrO implemented a fair few new features between Dec 2013 and Sep 2014, e.g. album art downloader (which was basically a replacement for the old AMG/Rovi service which was discontinued a few years back); album art read/write/embed + config; an option to disable all video support; prev/next buttons in Alt+3 editor (taken out of jtfe and natively implemented in winamp.exe); improved stream info page in Alt+3; legacy compatibility mode config; png support for classic skins; an option to disable the prompt to install skins/langpacks; an option to show/hide the llama video logo; and much much more; plus also a plethora of ui tweaks; and a huge amount of bug fixes and other tweaks... plus the start on work for disabling/replacing 3rd-party decoders & services etc which were licensed by/to AOL.

However, some of the work he started was unfinished.
As I said in a previous post, we got to a stage where we had a pretty decent 5.8 beta build a few weeks back, but we've since discovered a number of issues (crashes/bugs/etc) related to that unfinished work, so we decided to rollback to Jan 2014 and start cherry-picking commits to try and resolve said issues... we're still in the middle of that process (it's a huge task, btw, but without DrO, still easier than trying to determine the causes & fixes separately).

Also, over the past few months, I've made a fair few changes and implemented/fixed some stuff (much of which is minor, and I won't go into any detail here); Martin has done some Bento skin updates (yay!); and Benski has coded a new out_wasapi plug-in (still in alpha stages); a new in_mod plug-in based on OpenMPT (still alpha); and has also replaced the mp3, aac & h264 decoders (the previous ones were licensed to AOL, but we've managed to come up with open-source or free alternative replacement methods, which I'm also not going into any great detail about either, at least, not until we've got a public beta out).

No work was done on Winamp between ~Sep 2014 and ~Aug 2015, because SHOUTcast DNAS v2.5 took precendence. We needed to get the SHOUTcast Streaming Service and DNAS+ Monetization products working properly to generate revenue first. Makes sense, right?

So.... on top of the aforementioned Winamp 5.8 refactoring, there's still a lot of work to be done before we can even get a public beta out, never mind a full release.

We've just about got CD Ripping working again (without the Sonic Engine), which was another thing that DrO had worked on, but we'll probably have to leave CD Burning & Gracenote replacement (CDDB/Auto-Tag/Playlist-Generator/etc) until 5.81 or whatever comes after said next release.

So...we're getting there...slowly but surely.... but at the moment, even I'm not sure what features/fixes/etc will make it into 5.8.

Seyss, surely you must understand that we can't really move forward properly until all those AOL codecs/features/services have been removed & replaced. We can't really put out a new version with tons of features from 5.666 missing....

Talking of which, another thing that's not been mentioned related to DrO's departure is the impact it has on JTFE.
JTFE was DrO's personal project/plug-in (as was UnicodeTaskbarFix.w5s) and, as requested/specified, we can no longer include it with the Winamp distribution.... so there's another major issue which will need addressing....

I was deeply affected by DrO's departure. It took me quite some time to come to terms with it. TBH, I still haven't.
The past couple years have been an emotional rollercoaster.... from learning that Winamp was being shutdown, to Radionomy coming in the last dying moments to save us, to DrO's departure, and much more.... it's not been easy....

All I ask for now is for everyone to please be patient. Yes, I know.... 2 years with no updates.... it's unthinkable...crazy...insane.... but with the limited resources that we have, we're doing our very best. Yes, Vivendi is now a major shareholder, but it's still too early, and we don't know the potential implications/impact/effect yet, so for now, we're just carrying on the same as before. We will get there in the end, and I'm doing my very best to keep you all informed on the progress.

Thanks <3
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Old 8th January 2016, 15:18   #1348
pbelkner
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Benski has coded a new out_wasapi plug-in (still in alpha stages)
When do you plan to release it (you probably know about out_yasapi):

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Originally Posted by pbelkner View Post
The plans for next steps include
  • allow for more dynamic configuration including the default device,
  • allow for "gapless" playback, i.e. don't stop and destroy the audio client between tracks when the format (especially the sample frequency) is not changing.
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Old 8th January 2016, 15:21   #1349
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Once again @DJ Egg, thanks for putting this in the open for us. I'm sure a lot of people apreciate it (and will obviosly apreciate the work you and the other guys are doing), so don't hesitate to post updates like this. Good luck!

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Old 8th January 2016, 15:22   #1350
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When do you plan to release it (you probably know about out_yasapi):
Well, it'll probably be included with 5.8 beta... but I don't know when.

There should be no reason why both out_wasapi and out_yasapi can't be present.

We're certainly open to suggestion. Maybe have a private chat with Benski about it?
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Old 8th January 2016, 15:33   #1351
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There should be no reason why both out_wasapi and out_yasapi can't be present.
That's of course true. But I feel that it is a waste of time to further invest my (rare) resources into it.
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Maybe have a private chat with Benski about it?
I send him a PM.
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Old 8th January 2016, 16:22   #1352
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Talking of which, another thing that's not been mentioned related to DrO's departure is the impact it has on JTFE.
JTFE was DrO's personal project/plug-in (as was UnicodeTaskbarFix.w5s) and, as requested/specified, we can no longer include it with the Winamp distribution.... so there's another major issue which will need addressing....
I came across this while coding Yet Another Shuffle and discovered that there's a deep inter-dependency between Winamp and JTFE. To be clear
  • Winamp deeply depends on JTFE, and
  • JTFE is private to DrO.
I never understood why Winamp/Nullsoft/AOL/Radionomy was allowing that because, obviously, that way Winamp/Nullsoft/AOL/Radionomy could be blackmailed by DrO.

EDIT: Cf. the following post by DrO in the YAS thread:
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well that rules me out trying it if it's jtfe incompatible.
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Old 8th January 2016, 17:22   #1353
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... Winamp deeply depends on JTFE, ...
I think that statement was a bit of the hyperbole DrO was know for (and a bit of the justifiable pride he had in his work).

While it is true that JTFE brought a lot of useful features to Winamp, Winamp is still a very capable digital media player on it's own, imo. Removing JTFE doesn't break any of Winamp's native features.

Bottom line, JTFE is just another 3rd party plug-in that expanded on Winamp's native features. Just like dozens of other useful plug-ins over the years, yours included.

Every 3rd party developer has the right to donate their work or not. Suggesting DrO was setting Winamp up for 'blackmail' is a bit harsh, imo. Many of DrO's plug-ins features have been added (donated?) to Winamp's native code over the years. But, I'm just a DrO fan.

I hope you decide to continue working on out_yasapi.

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Old 8th January 2016, 17:39   #1354
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I never understood why Winamp/Nullsoft/AOL/Radionomy was allowing that because, obviously, that way Winamp/Nullsoft/AOL/Radionomy could be blackmailed by DrO.
Probably Winamp/Nullsoft/AOL/Radionomy didn't want to buy the plugin (if it was on sale), nor they had the coders to implement it. The best they could offer was to implement it, keeping it independent and relying support on DrO.. (later he began to work for them, but that's another thing). I would have done the same, specially if I can't give support for it, I'm not longer working with them and everything still has to be "free of charge"..

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Old 8th January 2016, 17:48   #1355
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Read twice.
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imo. Removing JTFE doesn't break any of Winamp's native features.
That's you're opinion. I'm pretty sure that this is not true. Once again listen to DrO himself:
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrO View Post
well that rules me out trying it if it's jtfe incompatible.
That's all you need to know: Everything, including WA itself, has to be JTFE compatible (including message processing).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
Bottom line, JTFE is just another 3rd party plug-in that expanded on Winamp's native features.
No, it's definitely not a 3rd party plug-in like any other because WA depends on it (unlike any ordinary 3rd party plug-in).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
Suggesting DrO was setting Winamp up for 'blackmail' is a bit harsh, imo.
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying the following:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbelkner View Post
I never understood why Winamp/Nullsoft/AOL/Radionomy was allowing that because, obviously, that way Winamp/Nullsoft/AOL/Radionomy could be blackmailed by DrO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
But, I'm just a DrO fan.
That's up to you. I'm not.
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Old 8th January 2016, 18:20   #1356
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Probably Winamp/Nullsoft/AOL/Radionomy didn't want to buy the plugin (if it was on sale), nor they had the coders to implement it. The best they could offer was to implement it, keeping it independent and relying support on DrO.. (later he began to work for them, but that's another thing). I would have done the same, specially if I can't give support for it, I'm not longer working with them and everything still has to be "free of charge"..
Most likely it was that way. It works if they are friends until the end of time. If not, it ends in exactly the mess now Benski has to find a solution for.
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Old 8th January 2016, 18:29   #1357
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That's you're opinion. I'm pretty sure that this is not true.
I strongly believe removing JTFE doesn't break any of Winamp native features. JTFE had been available for a long time and was included in the Winamp installation packages. Many assumed the JTFE features were 'native' features. I've yet to find a true native feature that doesn't work after removing JTFE. If you find one, then I will stand corrected.

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Originally Posted by pbelkner View Post
Once again listen to DrO himself:
It may be useful to review the full context of that statement. Sounds to me that the item being discussed needed to work with JTFE and thus indirectly work with Winamp, instead of working directly with Winamp itself.

But it's all 'water under the bridge' now.

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Old 8th January 2016, 18:38   #1358
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Egg,

thanks again for another very useful post. those kinds of posts keep people from getting too anxious and worried imo.

having said that, i have to agree that it truly was wrong of management to allow a dev to insert something into the native distribution code that they, management, did not own.

afaik, i don't use JTFE very deeply if at all, so why not just remove it and let someone else make a 3rd party ver? is it really such an important core part of winamp? i don't think so.

i do understand monetizing shoutcast and so on, but i really think an equal priority should have been to put out a new ver of winamp stripped of AOL stuff and totally patched. i would've put it out missing all the features b/c its missing them right now anyway, right? and besides, it could have been branded by the new owners and tied to the new service. and i would have told DrO to wait to do all those things u listed that i personally very badly want, meaning for now just put them on hold and get the patched, legal version out.

the way i look at it, Radionomy, Vivendi, etc they aren't buying an app, they are buying a community of users. and thats a very valuable thing, and i don't think they know or understand that based on what has happened so far. think about it, the app doesn't mean ANYTHING unless a lot of people use it, and a lot more people would use shoutcast services if they are using winamp.

anyway, i don't want to MMQB you too much, but i do think more open dialogue with the community is beneficial, so u can hear POV like this and pass them on to the powers that be.

if you are looking for a dev, perhaps Thinktink is interested? also, a gifted dev previously at squeezebox is named Andy Grundman.

i appreciate being able to give my feedback and have it heard, thx!

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Old 8th January 2016, 18:42   #1359
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Most likely it was that way. It works if they are friends until the end of time. If not, it ends in exactly the mess now Benski has to find a solution for.
I think friendship has little to do with it. There are many examples of key people no longer being available at key times, for many reasons. Sometimes they move on, sometimes they die.

The Winamp community can only hope that someone or group is able to pick up the pieces and move things along.

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Old 8th January 2016, 21:28   #1360
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Hi Seyss

DrO implemented a fair few new features between Dec 2013 and Sep 2014, e.g. album art downloader (which was basically a replacement for the old AMG/Rovi service which was discontinued a few years back); album art read/write/embed + config; an option to disable all video support; prev/next buttons in Alt+3 editor (taken out of jtfe and natively implemented in winamp.exe); improved stream info page in Alt+3; legacy compatibility mode config; png support for classic skins; an option to disable the prompt to install skins/langpacks; an option to show/hide the llama video logo; and much much more; plus also a plethora of ui tweaks; and a huge amount of bug fixes and other tweaks... plus the start on work for disabling/replacing 3rd-party decoders & services etc which were licensed by/to AOL.

However, some of the work he started was unfinished.
As I said in a previous post, we got to a stage where we had a pretty decent 5.8 beta build a few weeks back, but we've since discovered a number of issues (crashes/bugs/etc) related to that unfinished work, so we decided to rollback to Jan 2014 and start cherry-picking commits to try and resolve said issues... we're still in the middle of that process (it's a huge task, btw, but without DrO, still easier than trying to determine the causes & fixes separately).

Also, over the past few months, I've made a fair few changes and implemented/fixed some stuff (much of which is minor, and I won't go into any detail here); Martin has done some Bento skin updates (yay!); and Benski has coded a new out_wasapi plug-in (still in alpha stages); a new in_mod plug-in based on OpenMPT (still alpha); and has also replaced the mp3, aac & h264 decoders (the previous ones were licensed to AOL, but we've managed to come up with open-source or free alternative replacement methods, which I'm also not going into any great detail about either, at least, not until we've got a public beta out).

No work was done on Winamp between ~Sep 2014 and ~Aug 2015, because SHOUTcast DNAS v2.5 took precendence. We needed to get the SHOUTcast Streaming Service and DNAS+ Monetization products working properly to generate revenue first. Makes sense, right?

So.... on top of the aforementioned Winamp 5.8 refactoring, there's still a lot of work to be done before we can even get a public beta out, never mind a full release.

We've just about got CD Ripping working again (without the Sonic Engine), which was another thing that DrO had worked on, but we'll probably have to leave CD Burning & Gracenote replacement (CDDB/Auto-Tag/Playlist-Generator/etc) until 5.81 or whatever comes after said next release.

So...we're getting there...slowly but surely.... but at the moment, even I'm not sure what features/fixes/etc will make it into 5.8.

Seyss, surely you must understand that we can't really move forward properly until all those AOL codecs/features/services have been removed & replaced. We can't really put out a new version with tons of features from 5.666 missing....

Talking of which, another thing that's not been mentioned related to DrO's departure is the impact it has on JTFE.
JTFE was DrO's personal project/plug-in (as was UnicodeTaskbarFix.w5s) and, as requested/specified, we can no longer include it with the Winamp distribution.... so there's another major issue which will need addressing....

I was deeply affected by DrO's departure. It took me quite some time to come to terms with it. TBH, I still haven't.
The past couple years have been an emotional rollercoaster.... from learning that Winamp was being shutdown, to Radionomy coming in the last dying moments to save us, to DrO's departure, and much more.... it's not been easy....

All I ask for now is for everyone to please be patient. Yes, I know.... 2 years with no updates.... it's unthinkable...crazy...insane.... but with the limited resources that we have, we're doing our very best. Yes, Vivendi is now a major shareholder, but it's still too early, and we don't know the potential implications/impact/effect yet, so for now, we're just carrying on the same as before. We will get there in the end, and I'm doing my very best to keep you all informed on the progress.

Thanks <3
<3 dj egg
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