Peace in Middle East back to spep zero (again).

The Valkyrie · 23rd January 2002, 11:49

Israel kills Hamas members, Hamas declared "all-out" war, Hamas go gun-running in Jerusalem with Kalashnikovs injure dezons, and kill two, Israel vows retaliation, Sharon blames Arafat for terrorism, and so did Arafat blames Sharon.

I've seen the peace process ziping back to step zero many times. I'ver seen that happening four times over since September 11th, and I thought to myself; "Why the hell can't they just get along for one minute without unloading several thousand rounds of hatred into each others' faces?"

And what's gonna happen now? Israel may retaliate with heavier military operations, the Palestinian Authority would stand no chance. Other Arabs may want to help, but couldn't if American dishes out some economic sanctions. Iraq may defy America and attack Israel, America may go back to Iraq. There would be a peak in terrorist attacks in America. I don't know. It's mind-boggling what the consequences of this could be.

And why are those Israelis there in the first place? Israel, WestBank and Gaza were once a single Arab state of Palestine, but why did the Jews migrate there anyway?

rm' · 23rd January 2002, 11:58

Quote:

Originally posted by The Valkyrie
And why are those Israelis there in the first place? Israel, WestBank and Gaza were once a single Arab state of Palestine, but why did the Jews migrate there anyway?

No it wasn't. It was a British colony. The only Palestinian state in modern history is Jordan (on the East bank). The Jews migrated there because the British gave them the land.

The Valkyrie · 23rd January 2002, 12:14

The brits ruled Palestine too? I thought they only had Iraq.

Xerxes · 23rd January 2002, 12:19

The only peace that will ever exist is when one side wins.

When the Nazi menace started creeping out of germany and occupying disputed territories, what did peace talks by Britain accomplish? Neville Chaimberlain's famous "Peace in our time" speech is considered one of the most incorrect speeches in history. They only gave the Nazis more time to build up their military before they began their main offensive vs. France and Britain.

Similarly, the famous picture of Bill "the Peacemaker" Clinton beaming while Netanyahu and Arafat shook hands is now equaly *laughable*. There is no such thing as peace between sworn enemies.

The only stable peace that can be aquired, using historical precedent, is utter domination of the enemy. The Russians Marching into Berlin. Two A-bombs on Japan. All the way back to Roman general Scipio leveling carthage to the ground. The enemy cannot have a bragaining position- only a white surrender flag in his hand. An armistice or annexation, not a cease fire, is the foundation of lasting peace.

Thus, when the palestine "state" is annexed, the peace process will be complete- as war is diplomacy by other more direct means.

fwgx · 23rd January 2002, 12:58

To be perfectly honest I think they should nuke themselves. It's gone beyond a joke, I really don't care if someone gets shot, they should learn that they either kill everyone or they learn not to shoot each other. No one side will ever win a war as it stands at the moment and both sides are so unopen to giving in at all that it is a complete deadlock. There has to be some give and take in negotiations.

This is one of the main reasons I think religion is a bad thing, especially mixed in with the society over there. Bringing people to completely believe something and not giving them the oppertuinity or laws for them to go and discover new ways and understandings is a recipy for disaster.

rm' · 23rd January 2002, 15:51

Quote:

Originally posted by The Valkyrie
The brits ruled Palestine too? I thought they only had Iraq.

They had the whole region, from Egypt in the west to Lebanon in the north to Persia in the east to Arabia in the south.

RE: What Xerxes said
Machiavelli says "Wars can only be deferred to the advantage of others". We saw that in the Gulf War when Bush Sr. stopped short of his ultimate goal of crushing Hussein. Now, Hussein is still a sore thumb in US foreign policy, and the other Arab nations are exploiting the plight of the Iraqi people to their own ends.

golferboy32531 · 23rd January 2002, 16:12

War in that region has been going on since the beginning of time. I see three ends to the conflict: Apocalypse and/or forever more war and/or the World Powers settling the dispute. No offense to either side, but does God, Allah, etc. really want them to fight forever?
C'mon! Can't we all just have a bowl of ramen or something and leave our guns in the gun cabinet???

Bilbo Baggins · 23rd January 2002, 16:17

Britain ruled the world you know

nature spirit · 23rd January 2002, 16:25

actually Palestine was under the Turkish rule until the Brit took it over in the end of WWI along with Jordan, Irak, and some small emirates on the Persian (or Arabic, since this is controversial) Gulf etc... By then, There was 4% jews against the rest majority of palestinians.. so when the land was mandated by the Brit (it was not a colony, mind you) they offered the Jews to settle in the land and create a state of their own. The idea of offering a population a shelter is actually a must for it's a part of the human rights convention.. only that it shouldn't happen by deracinating a whole other population and making 3/4 of it as refugees living in miserable conditions in neighboring countries. The Western world backed up the Israel state but forgot about a lot other cases, which makes it really hypocrite. The Kurdish case or the Thibet could be exemples..

rm' · 23rd January 2002, 16:28

Quote:

Originally posted by nature spirit
Turkish rule

The Turks are not Arabs, and sure as heck aren't Palestinians. So my claim that there never was a Palestinian state in modern times still stands.

Bilbo Baggins · 23rd January 2002, 16:34

The Turks that Naturespirit referes to are the Ottoman Turks, who were holding on tothe last vestiges of their empire when WW1 broke out.

The Valkyrie · 23rd January 2002, 17:48

I asked people the question about why the Israelis are there in the first place because my friend just told me something much more sinister. Then again, he's Russian and sometimes very critical of the West.

Anyway, those Arabs who says America should stop supporting Israel can expect the one answer; over America's dead body. Cos many of America's richest, most powerful and most influential people are Jews, often with close ties, perhaps relatives, to Israel.

rm' · 23rd January 2002, 18:15

That's just a big load of bullpoopie, and a carry over of traditional antisemitic views. You just have to look at how outspoken the most powerful man in the country, Bush, is when discussing his Christian religious views. Heck, even Ted Turner, Steve Forbes and Bill Gates aren't Jews.

nature spirit · 24th January 2002, 10:29

True Bilbo.

They were the rulers actually, but the ethnic presence in those lands were to Arabs in fact. e.g. you can't say there should be no Jordan or Syria just because they were under the Ottoman rule.

RM.. no antisemitic opinions at all.. it's just the truth. a state that is built on wiping out a whole population.. how fair could that be?? Im only talking from the human rights angle, for I dont believe in the notion of nations and borders.

of course the US will always be backing up Israel for strategical reasons, but most importantly, as Valkyrie said, cuz the decision making system in the US is indirectly (and directly, which is not hidden from anybody -the lobby game-) controlled by Zionists (not Jews, for that would be considered as discrimination)

rm' · 24th January 2002, 10:36

Quote:

Originally posted by nature spirit
no antisemitic opinions at all.. it's just the truth.

With no basis in fact.

nature spirit · 24th January 2002, 10:56

no basis? you should read history again then.

rm' · 24th January 2002, 11:02

We are talking right now. Right now, the number of Jews in positions of power is proportionate to the size of their population. The past is a separate thing all together.

nature spirit · 24th January 2002, 11:21

that is true, I agree. But you're implying that If Melosovic was left alone, he would have had the right to sweep all other ethnic groups since the Serb were dominating in the cleansed areas.

it's a population left homeless and countryless and has no future since 50 years.. you could anybody be indifferent? and how could it ever be a two-sided story?

rm' · 24th January 2002, 11:25

I'm not saying that. I am sayin that this

Quote:

Originally posted by The Valkyrie
Cos many of America's richest, most powerful and most influential people are Jews, often with close ties, perhaps relatives, to Israel.

is simply not true.

23rd January 2002, 11:49	#1
The Valkyrie Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Somewhere Posts: 225	Peace in Middle East back to spep zero (again). Israel kills Hamas members, Hamas declared "all-out" war, Hamas go gun-running in Jerusalem with Kalashnikovs injure dezons, and kill two, Israel vows retaliation, Sharon blames Arafat for terrorism, and so did Arafat blames Sharon. I've seen the peace process ziping back to step zero many times. I'ver seen that happening four times over since September 11th, and I thought to myself; "Why the hell can't they just get along for one minute without unloading several thousand rounds of hatred into each others' faces?" And what's gonna happen now? Israel may retaliate with heavier military operations, the Palestinian Authority would stand no chance. Other Arabs may want to help, but couldn't if American dishes out some economic sanctions. Iraq may defy America and attack Israel, America may go back to Iraq. There would be a peak in terrorist attacks in America. I don't know. It's mind-boggling what the consequences of this could be. And why are those Israelis there in the first place? Israel, WestBank and Gaza were once a single Arab state of Palestine, but why did the Jews migrate there anyway? "...eliminate them! Whites, black, yellows, greens, purples. We'll just f@#* each other until we're all the same color!" -Bulworth

23rd January 2002, 12:14	#3
The Valkyrie Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Somewhere Posts: 225	The brits ruled Palestine too? I thought they only had Iraq. "...eliminate them! Whites, black, yellows, greens, purples. We'll just f@#* each other until we're all the same color!" -Bulworth

23rd January 2002, 12:58	#5
fwgx Rudolf the Red. (Forum King) Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 9,314	To be perfectly honest I think they should nuke themselves. It's gone beyond a joke, I really don't care if someone gets shot, they should learn that they either kill everyone or they learn not to shoot each other. No one side will ever win a war as it stands at the moment and both sides are so unopen to giving in at all that it is a complete deadlock. There has to be some give and take in negotiations. This is one of the main reasons I think religion is a bad thing, especially mixed in with the society over there. Bringing people to completely believe something and not giving them the oppertuinity or laws for them to go and discover new ways and understandings is a recipy for disaster. "We think science is interesting and if you disagree, you can fuck off."

23rd January 2002, 16:12	#7
golferboy32531 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Northwest Florida, not North Cuba Posts: 301	War in that region has been going on since the beginning of time. I see three ends to the conflict: Apocalypse and/or forever more war and/or the World Powers settling the dispute. No offense to either side, but does God, Allah, etc. really want them to fight forever? C'mon! Can't we all just have a bowl of ramen or something and leave our guns in the gun cabinet??? When driving a Classic Mopar, be sure to run over as many Geo/Chevrolet Metros as possible.

23rd January 2002, 17:48	#12
The Valkyrie Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Somewhere Posts: 225	I asked people the question about why the Israelis are there in the first place because my friend just told me something much more sinister. Then again, he's Russian and sometimes very critical of the West. Anyway, those Arabs who says America should stop supporting Israel can expect the one answer; over America's dead body. Cos many of America's richest, most powerful and most influential people are Jews, often with close ties, perhaps relatives, to Israel. "...eliminate them! Whites, black, yellows, greens, purples. We'll just f@#* each other until we're all the same color!" -Bulworth

23rd January 2002, 12:19	#4
Xerxes Capitalist Alumni Join Date: May 2000 Location: my 4 Houses on Park Place Posts: 8,688	The only peace that will ever exist is when one side wins. When the Nazi menace started creeping out of germany and occupying disputed territories, what did peace talks by Britain accomplish? Neville Chaimberlain's famous "Peace in our time" speech is considered one of the most incorrect speeches in history. They only gave the Nazis more time to build up their military before they began their main offensive vs. France and Britain. Similarly, the famous picture of Bill "the Peacemaker" Clinton beaming while Netanyahu and Arafat shook hands is now equaly laughable. There is no such thing as peace between sworn enemies. The only stable peace that can be aquired, using historical precedent, is utter domination of the enemy. The Russians Marching into Berlin. Two A-bombs on Japan. All the way back to Roman general Scipio leveling carthage to the ground. The enemy cannot have a bragaining position- only a white surrender flag in his hand. An armistice or annexation, not a cease fire, is the foundation of lasting peace. Thus, when the palestine "state" is annexed, the peace process will be complete- as war is diplomacy by other more direct means.

23rd January 2002, 16:17	#8
Bilbo Baggins Wind Chime of the Apocalypse Join Date: May 2000 Location: The Forest Posts: 17,228	Britain ruled the world you know

23rd January 2002, 16:25	#9
nature spirit Major Dude Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: nature Posts: 839	actually Palestine was under the Turkish rule until the Brit took it over in the end of WWI along with Jordan, Irak, and some small emirates on the Persian (or Arabic, since this is controversial) Gulf etc... By then, There was 4% jews against the rest majority of palestinians.. so when the land was mandated by the Brit (it was not a colony, mind you) they offered the Jews to settle in the land and create a state of their own. The idea of offering a population a shelter is actually a must for it's a part of the human rights convention.. only that it shouldn't happen by deracinating a whole other population and making 3/4 of it as refugees living in miserable conditions in neighboring countries. The Western world backed up the Israel state but forgot about a lot other cases, which makes it really hypocrite. The Kurdish case or the Thibet could be exemples..

23rd January 2002, 16:34	#11
Bilbo Baggins Wind Chime of the Apocalypse Join Date: May 2000 Location: The Forest Posts: 17,228	The Turks that Naturespirit referes to are the Ottoman Turks, who were holding on tothe last vestiges of their empire when WW1 broke out.

23rd January 2002, 18:15	#13
rm' Banned Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 11,361	That's just a big load of bullpoopie, and a carry over of traditional antisemitic views. You just have to look at how outspoken the most powerful man in the country, Bush, is when discussing his Christian religious views. Heck, even Ted Turner, Steve Forbes and Bill Gates aren't Jews.

24th January 2002, 10:29	#14
nature spirit Major Dude Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: nature Posts: 839	True Bilbo. They were the rulers actually, but the ethnic presence in those lands were to Arabs in fact. e.g. you can't say there should be no Jordan or Syria just because they were under the Ottoman rule. RM.. no antisemitic opinions at all.. it's just the truth. a state that is built on wiping out a whole population.. how fair could that be?? Im only talking from the human rights angle, for I dont believe in the notion of nations and borders. of course the US will always be backing up Israel for strategical reasons, but most importantly, as Valkyrie said, cuz the decision making system in the US is indirectly (and directly, which is not hidden from anybody -the lobby game-) controlled by Zionists (not Jews, for that would be considered as discrimination)

24th January 2002, 10:56	#16
nature spirit Major Dude Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: nature Posts: 839	no basis? you should read history again then.

24th January 2002, 11:02	#17
rm' Banned Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 11,361	We are talking right now. Right now, the number of Jews in positions of power is proportionate to the size of their population. The past is a separate thing all together.

24th January 2002, 11:21	#18
nature spirit Major Dude Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: nature Posts: 839	that is true, I agree. But you're implying that If Melosovic was left alone, he would have had the right to sweep all other ethnic groups since the Serb were dominating in the cleansed areas. it's a population left homeless and countryless and has no future since 50 years.. you could anybody be indifferent? and how could it ever be a two-sided story?

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