ACC once and for all!

[logoguy]

I was out wondering the net last night looking for some good ripers (my mom wanted christmas music on the comp) and i stumbled apon aac a format that i had heard of but never bothered to look at closer. I proceeded to download the FREE encoder and winamp 3 plugin (to play aac) also FREE. I found that the aac kicked the pants off ogg mp3 mp3pro and it actually soundes warmer than the the original wav and the file was smaller than all the other formats ( all at the same bit rates) it worked flawlessly i ripped and entire cd in under 10 mins (i know that is slow but for the the quality). I am so happy that i found this i have only one question, y is everybody hyping ogg up so much and overlooking the future of mpeg4 (not mpeg one layer3 but mpeg4 like the new divx)? If u think about it all of the protables will be going this way soon it is just what i see to be the future of audio. oh and i forgot to mention the channels up to 48 of them can ne one say surround sound. This is it stick to it.

[Russ]

Originally posted by logoguy
...it actually soundes warmer than the the original wav...

Err... the whole point of audio compression is that it sounds the same of the original, any difference is a failing.

AAC is also patent-encumbered (by Dolby Labs) and so a free encoder or decoder are illegal.

Ogg Vorbis on the other hand is free, patent-unencumbered, and open-source, so even if you spot a problem with it's audio quality it can be fixed in a later version.

Oh, and Vorbis can support up to 128 channels.

[logoguy]

I thought that it was totaly free but not open sorce due to like pro versions and stuff like that. Okay but never mind that what about compatabilty u did not mention a single thing about that as much as ogg is so nice which do u think companys will be more likely to pick up with the fact that it can be marketed as mp4 which to dumb peeps will be quite the perk. Ogg to me is like the linux of audio good but advanced and easily pushed aside by micro$oft based on there little we will kill open source. It is what i am going to use to rip from now on and if i need to trancode to mp3 for my car then so be it it wont be as bad as trascoding from ogg. Oh forgot size i got a better sounding file for less disk space. so as illegal as it is i do a lot of illegal stuff so meh. and about dolby are you sure ur not thinking of ac-3 the dvd audio doohicky.

[Russ]

http://www.vialicensing.com/products...nse.terms.html

[cybaix]

Originally posted by logoguy
Ogg to me is like the linux of audio good but advanced and easily pushed aside by micro$oft based on there little we will kill open source.

Sence you do not make!

Linux is only advanced for people that have been breast feed on windows. Infact day by day, linux becomes more like windows (in ease of use) eventually I HOPE linux will become a top compitetor for desktop PC's and not just servers (Which any decent computer guy can tell you, linux owns as a server HANDS down.. the power of unix, except for FREE!).

[sanosuke]

Originally posted by logoguy
Okay but never mind that what about compatabilty u did not mention a single thing about that as much as ogg is so nice which do u think companys will be more likely to pick up with the fact that it can be marketed as mp4 which to dumb peeps will be quite the perk.

well ogg is ogg and mp3 is mp3, they r not compatiable. BUT because ogg's encoders and source is free companys can develop players for it, let is be software or portable mp3 players, and they need not pay the developers anything for it.
unfortunally thought, mp3 is still dominant, a portable device needs to be both mp3 and ogg compatiable (not just soley ogg) in order to be marketed.

[Ice]

i've read somewhere that how OGG is decoded, it is more efficient in being decoded by specialized chips than MP3s are. has anyone heard of anything simmaliar?

[sanosuke]

if thats the case then it would be a superior format to mp3, and it is cheaper to develop. i have yet to read anything like that though.

but this proves that there is a future for ogg.

[deepu_s]

yes...ogg may be a more superior format compared to mp3. how comes it hasnt been heavily adopted? simple reason...

its human nature to avoid change. its derived from lack of interest or laziness. once some innovation has dominated the scene, and becomes commonly used, people tend to stick to that technology even though its outdated.

[theknub]

i don't think it is so much out of laziness, but rather out of money. if ogg becomes dominant, everyone now has to buy an ogg personal player, ogg car player, and all the computer software needs to decode ogg (and those of us with stereo mp3 decoders need an ogg decoder for that). all this translates to more money. in this day and age, for the minimal gain in quality you get from ogg, it doesn't justify spending 100-500 dollars in hardware (for each individual item mind you) to simply change formats. this is why DAT tapes never became popular. they can store more data and have better data retention (i believe, don't quote me about the retention) and higher quality possibilities than CDs but never made it into the consumer marketplace (the studio is a different story). i wouldn't go so far as it being human nature, but looking from the economical perspective the gain is minimal and expense to great to justify a shift to a new format.

there are numerous examples showing the humans are not lazy and adverse to change. look at the growth rate of big screen tv's, flat panels, microbrews, video cards, recycling, cars, or even sex toys. the diversity and amount have increased steadily over the years and faster depending on how much better products are made. we don't buy because we are lazy. we buy because there are new improvements that we see as beneficial or it comes at a time that the rest of the marketplace (or other medium) may be stagnant.

don't go blaming everything on it being human nature to avoid change. in this case, the economic incentive doesn't outweigh the gain associated with the task. yes lack of interest or laziness can be part of it, but it is often due to it being either to radical of an idea (i.e. star wars defense system) or just not significant enough of a change for man to actually change. after all, if we were lazy, we'd all be naked, huddled in a cold wet cave for heat, dragging women by the hair, and listening to brennan beat on a rock for music.


--- now my tirade ends for the day

[Gonzotek]

Originally posted by theknub
after all, if we were lazy, we'd all be naked, huddled in a cold wet cave for heat, dragging women by the hair, and listening to brennan beat on a rock for music.


--- now my tirade ends for the day

Overall, well put. But who said there's anything wrong with that?


-=Gonzotek=-

[theknub]

overall?... i thought it was good no matter what . granted, i have a final in about an hour and i had a couple of beers to calm me down last night.......

the only complaint may be that brennan will also probably making some gutteral hoos and haas to pass for singing. the whole dragging women by the hair thing and being huddled in the naked masses might be kind of fun, as long as we aren't playing any fraternity games

[Funkstar De Luxe]

What stops people going for ogg is the audio quality. Ogg just can't compete with LAME MP3's at the moment. Over time this may change, but just now MP3 does sound a lot better.

[sanosuke]

Originally posted by Funkstar De Luxe
What stops people going for ogg is the audio quality. Ogg just can't compete with LAME MP3's at the moment. Over time this may change, but just now MP3 does sound a lot better.

i see deaf ppl...

[Gonzotek]

Originally posted by Funkstar De Luxe
What stops people going for ogg is the audio quality. Ogg just can't compete with LAME MP3's at the moment. Over time this may change, but just now MP3 does sound a lot better.

No way. The size to quality ratio of ogg is much better than mp3. What's keeping me from using oggs more (I do make every attempt to use ogg) is the lack of hardware support. Right now if I want ogg playback I'm limited to a few rather expensive and not widely available models, or an expensive PDA (I'm not even sure if there is a ogg player for any pda architecture right now).

On a PC, they're wonderful things, no doubt. But if they can't leave the PC they aren't all that useful, to me.

-=Gonzotek=-

[sanosuke]

Originally posted by Gonzotek


On a PC, they're wonderful things, no doubt. But if they can't leave the PC they aren't all that useful, to me.

-=Gonzotek=-

so true, btw i have never heard of an ogg player...

[bjay125]

I have tried and tested Ogg, MP3, MPC, AAC, and probably a few others. This is why I use Ogg:

(1) Free and open-source. This may not mean alot to some peeps, but what it means is that *anyone* can incorporate ogg into any hardware/software without paying a dime in royalty fees. This means more choices for me in the short and long run.
(2) Quality is far superior to MP3. Anyone who says it isn't either has bad sound equipment or bad hearing, or both. I would say both aac and mpc are very good as well, with each having its plusses and minuses.
(3) While MP3 remains the king of 3rd party support, I would say ogg is probably second. Sure, I use Winamp most of the time, but its nice to know I have other choices. If you wanna play mpc or aac, your only choice in Winamp pretty much.
(4) Replaygain support. Before this existed, I used to normalize the wavs using SoundForge, and this was time consuming. Now that replaygain has set a standard, it makes much more sense to use it. The ogg implementation of replaygain is simply outstanding. MPC also has replaygain support, but AAC does not. MP3z can be modified to normalize it to your tastes, problem is, it is not standard. Someone may normalize it to 89 dB and someone else to 95 dB. Of course you can always renormalize an MP3 with MP3Gain with no loss in quality, but its still a pain in the arse.

Everybody is different, though. Some have hard disk space limitations, different hearing, different priorities when it comes to normalization, etc. Its nice to know different choices exist when it comes to lossy encoding.

-- bjay

[Funkstar De Luxe]

Originally posted by bjay125
(2) Quality is far superior to MP3. Anyone who says it isn't either has bad sound equipment or bad hearing, or both. I would say both aac and mpc are very good as well, with each having its plusses and minuses.

Ogg cannot sound as good as MP3 at bit rates over 128kbps. I have worked as a professional audio engineer for nearly three years now and a do have a modest home set up. You may prefer to use ogg, it may better suit your needs, you may think it "sounds better" but believe me, it certainly does not. Everyone should do a simple test, rip a CD track to .wav, .mp3 and ogg. Creat the mp3 with LAME at ABR @192Kbps and quality = 0. Now create your ogg at 256 in best quality mode and have a good listen to both in comparison to the mp3.

[Funkstar De Luxe]

PS I'm not trying to aggravate anyone nor am I some kinda Mp3 fanboy I'm just trying to tell everyone the facts. If you prefer ogg. fine, stick with it. But if you're looking for the best audio quality and small files sizes Mp3 is the way to go.

[Russ]

I'm not believeing that until I see it to a 95% confidence level in double-blind tests over a variety of genres of music.

If you can identify the problem then I'm sure Monty and the Vorbis team would be interested in your comments.

Oh and I'm interested to know why you say LAME ABR as opposed to VBR.

[edit]
I don't know anyone who can consistently differentiate ogg q=6 from uncompressed format. So I use it myself. I'm not saying it's perfect, I'm just saying that I can't tell the difference on my (not cheap) audio setup.
[/edit]

[logoguy]

For all of you that are fighting about ogg over mp3 y dont you fight over all three (them being ogg, mp3, acc) We are going way off topic. I do think ogg sounds better then mp3 and i think acc sounds better than mp3 and ogg and the sound quality to size ratio is fantastic. I also found out it is not illegal for me to dl a free encoder it is just illegal to not pay for the lisense of making my own encoder (which i font plan on doing, i have no coding skillz). So overall i think we will see an mp4 player in the not to distante future and it is better (to me) and it is smaller (fact in most cases) and it is what i am gonna use!

[Russ]

Technically it is indeed the coder of the encoder that is committing the crime.

[logoguy]

the coder has paid but he gives the software away. They ask for donations though. Maybe it is spyware although i highly dount that seeing as though it is a commandline based encoder(hehe).

[Funkstar De Luxe]

Can some one Pm me or post a link to this encoder - I'd love to try it! Thanks

[logoguy]

It is pystel and i think you can get it from rarewaves.com (http://www.inf.ufpr.br/~rja00/aac.html) That should do it for ya acc wise.

[I am Jesus]

ACC sounds like some sort of drug.

[Funkstar De Luxe]

Thanks man!

[logoguy]

Well what do you think about in general sawg u just come in and spit facts (not offfensice to you i bow to you) i would like to know what you think about its future (where is it going) and what you think about the quality and plz compare it to your favorite format (if acc is not ur favorite which is) It is a great honor to have you reply to me but i would like to know your oppinion.

[tunah]

Ogg is (or at least was until recently) less suited for embedded devices (discmans etc) due to the lack of a decoder that used only integer (or fixed-point) arithmetic. Floating point units drive up unit prices, and floating point calculations are expensive to do in software.
I think there was a decoder in fixed point released free a while ago, which makes this point moot, but ogg is certainly not easier to stick into a device than mp3.

[Russ]

Originally posted by tunah
I think there was a decoder in fixed point released free a while ago, which makes this point moot, but ogg is certainly not easier to stick into a device than mp3.

Yes, they completely turned that around by releasing Tremor, their fixed-point decoder for free AND offering free support and assistance to anyone trying to integrate it with a hardware device. So hardware device makers don't really have much excuse .

[bjay125]

For the record, in order to get the frequency response I wanted, I had to bump Psytel AAC at least one notch above "normal" VBR, or maybe 2. The bitrates were very comparable to Ogg Q7 or Q8, and since the result sounded no better to me, plus given the lack of 3rd party support and replaygain support, I was very happy I chose Ogg.

Like I said though, everyone is different. If peeps want to use MP3, or AAC, or codec x, thats fine. But when peeps say things like "why are you guys hyping Ogg when AAC is here" you have to remember that most of us have done our homework and many tests, and have chosen to use codec x. If YOU like codec y, wonderful, but don't patronize users of others codecs.