I've been there, have you?

aeturnis · 25th March 2003, 19:27

This is in response to everyone who protests war with Iraq. This is in response to everyone who screams about the innocent lives lost. This is in response to everyone who has ever dared to exercise their civil rights, but balked at the idea of EARNING them. How many of you have seen the sands of the Middle East? How many of you have stared into the eyes of someone who HATES you, simply because you are American? How many of you have shed blood, sweat, and tears for this amazing nation? I HAVE!! I have seen first hand what it is to be HATED. There is innocent blood being shed in Iraq, I'll be the first to stand and agree to that statement. But from birth, those "innocent" children are taught hate us. Why? Because we are free, because we allow our people to form and voice their own opinions, and to live the way they want to live. They dont understand what freedom is, so they fear it. And their leaders know that they can control people who are fearful.
We, the people of America, have an oppurtunity to give these people freedom, to teach them what it is, to open the doors that we so often take for granted. Yes, people will die. Blood will shed. Cities will burn. THIS IS THE PRICE OF FREEDOM. IT IS NOT FREE. HOW MANY PEOPLE, INNOCENT OR NOT, DIED FOR OUR FREEDOM!? Yet no one complains about that. Saddam Hussien is a madman, a criminal, and a murderer. He thinks noting of annihilating his own people, he thinks nothing of using weapons of mass destruction on whoever doesnt let him have his own way. He thinks nothing of harboring terrorists. He thinks nothing of killing YOUR INNOCENT CHILDREN.
Maybe this war isn't the best thing that could happen, but the alternitve frightens me more than anything else. Like I said, I've been there. Spent to much of my life in a place facing things that no person should have too. But if it means bringing freedom to a people that have none, I will go back. And I will die for their freedom, just like I would die for ours.

Merlin · 25th March 2003, 19:47

It's a fallacy that all Iraqis hate Americans. They don't.

aeturnis · 25th March 2003, 19:50

merlin,
you're right, not all iraqis hate us. most are BEGGING for liberation. They cheered when we started to invade, cause they knew that they would finally get what they so desperatly needed -FREEDOM

fwgx · 25th March 2003, 20:32

Your argument is complete crap. That may be a reason, but it's definatly right at the bottom of the list of reasons.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...923199-8755843
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...923199-8755843

Some more prominent reasons are American aggression, hypocracy, terrorism etc.

Fickle · 25th March 2003, 20:51

I think it's funny that once someone says something that is adverse to yours, Phily, you essencially call them a liar and run away.
Funny.

fwgx · 25th March 2003, 20:56

I said their argument was valid but that it carried very little weight in the list of reasons people don't like the US. I try to state facts and tell the truth. Plus this is a forum, you post then go away to real life then come back.

ertmann|CPH · 25th March 2003, 21:22

America has encounraged to locals to revolt twice, America has let them down twice!

America has encouraged Iraq to wage war on Iran, while secretly supporting Iran at the same time

America is supporting Isreal in their twisted policy on the palestinians (i know there is two sides of this story, but like it or not, that's how it's being percived in the middle east)

Alot of Americas foreign policy is aimed at keeping things in status quo, playing two sides on the same time, making them two faced.

.....No wonder if some Iraqis hate you.... stating they hate you because of your freedom is just plain stupid.

nature spirit · 26th March 2003, 00:49

not only some of the Iraqi really hate America now because of its invasion (they don't call it liberation, mind you and there is really resistence to troops there..) but most of the arab world hates America now.. try to read sources putting some light on the Middle East.. in Egypt, which is supposed to be a US ally, the street movement is all against this war.. and they are not the simple uneducated chunck of society, it's the university students, and, most of them are from the American University of Cairo. Some are seriously getting prepared to go to Iraq and to fight next to Iraqis against the US troops.. this is happening too in Jordan, Algeria, Bahrain.. (and also in Asian countries like Malaysia, Indonesia,..)
Im not saying this is right or wrong.. Im saying this is the situation... they really hate America now because they see no legitimate excuse for it, no matter if their regimes were really allies of the US.

The most ironic excuse Bush gives, linking this war to Terror. As if now the US and the world will be a safer place when hundreds of new movements will be rising against the US after this war. then another war on terror will start again.. then the homeland signal will be always red.. yes it will be a safer world really..

MGSolidSnake5 · 26th March 2003, 01:04

And Phily, you always end up sending a site that will direct you to the Amazon in England. Well, I'm not as aggressive as some people think the US is, so don't confuse me with the US government. I only live here. I also think that aeturnis said is true, too. If these people really do want freedom, I wish they weren't so afraid to talk about it.

fwgx · 26th March 2003, 08:38

Whats wrong with the UK amazon site and books in general that help you understand these complex situations. The reason peole don't like America just isn't as simple as 'they hate us coz we iz free', that's a MASSIVE over simplification of a complex subject. Moreso it is an easy answer the media have spread with very little thought to the real issues. The question 'Why do people hate America', for the most part, has now become not a question but a statement of implied truth that people hate america because of your freedoms. This just isn't the case.

zootm · 26th March 2003, 15:24

Quote:

Originally posted by aeturnis
How many of you have shed blood, sweat, and tears for this amazing nation? I HAVE!!

and this makes your opinion mean more than ours why?

seriously, i have every respect for the armed forces, but not all of them support your views. just saying "i'm a soldier, i support the war" isn't enough to prove all soldiers support the war. i know several who don't personally.

padangbond · 27th March 2003, 11:15

It is a genuine oversimplification that the reason many non-americans dislike americans are because of "freedom". Many people around the world dislikes americans because of the perceived arrogance. They dislike bush because of unilateralism. They also dislike the fact that americans rule much of the world (de facto) but at the same time the average american's knowledge of world geography is way below average. They dislike americans because when many americans visit outside the states they expect things to be done the "American Way" and not the other way around.

I know soldiers who thinks that because they fought in a war they think that they have the most knowledge on an issue, but how is it true when even the policymakers above them do not have enough understanding of the issues (such as bush and his cronies). Some of the people know used to fought in East Timor, and they think that their side was right, even though it is blatant to see that Indonesia was in fact treating Timor as a colony.

Learn the issues historically, then you will have a clearer understanding.

FirebladeRR · 27th March 2003, 19:07

I was there (in war)...
even more, I lived there, you
stupid shithead...
you have seen nothing...
you are just another idiot with big mouth!
I can give you a lot of information about
war. I can tell you how is to
be there for a long time.
would you like someone to smash
your country kill your friends and familly?
you better shut up!

FirebladeRR · 27th March 2003, 19:13

peace is something that is
always declared on the peace of paper,
never on a warfield.

freedom is something you must fight for,
but when sdmebody drops bombs around you,
that usually do not help.
If they wanted to help people in Iraq to
get its freedom they 100 better ways to do it.
In Afhanistan they caught Bin Laden,
ah yes... they have no idea where Bin Laden
is... thats the true... people died in
Afghanistan for some other reasons...
not for freedom... and same thing is
in Iraq... and if you know recent history
a little bit, you can find more examples...
exctually 90% of all you can remember are good examples...

dlinkwit27 · 27th March 2003, 19:35

fireblad. one thing, ti will automatticals word-wrap, so you don't need to hit enter that often

Gorgeus · 27th March 2003, 20:20

Just wanted to reply, because I understand your feelings, but some excellent replies have allready been posted. I may point out padangbond, zootm, nature spirit and ertmen.

George

ertmen, this UN had is cool. I want one, this is patriotism for internationalism, so to speak

FirebladeRR · 27th March 2003, 21:39

Well, guys, I got so mad when I read what
this guy wrote.
I don't know if spending my time typing
this instead being home with my family,
but I hope so.
Some people are too stupid to understand the
meaning of my anger (previous msgs),
They don't even know that people in other
all over the world have nations, feelings,
families, pride, love, blood, tears...
what do you think, do "others" also love their kids?

but thanks to the others who understand me.
I wish you never to be forced to face thw war.
cya!

FirebladeRR · 27th March 2003, 21:46

oops...
I am very tired...

".. I dont know if spending my time... bla bla....
instead being home with my family
is worth of it. I don't know does it meaning
anymore..."

well, good night

I hope I will not dream about dead people after this...

25th March 2003, 19:27	#1
aeturnis Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 13	I've been there, have you? This is in response to everyone who protests war with Iraq. This is in response to everyone who screams about the innocent lives lost. This is in response to everyone who has ever dared to exercise their civil rights, but balked at the idea of EARNING them. How many of you have seen the sands of the Middle East? How many of you have stared into the eyes of someone who HATES you, simply because you are American? How many of you have shed blood, sweat, and tears for this amazing nation? I HAVE!! I have seen first hand what it is to be HATED. There is innocent blood being shed in Iraq, I'll be the first to stand and agree to that statement. But from birth, those "innocent" children are taught hate us. Why? Because we are free, because we allow our people to form and voice their own opinions, and to live the way they want to live. They dont understand what freedom is, so they fear it. And their leaders know that they can control people who are fearful. We, the people of America, have an oppurtunity to give these people freedom, to teach them what it is, to open the doors that we so often take for granted. Yes, people will die. Blood will shed. Cities will burn. THIS IS THE PRICE OF FREEDOM. IT IS NOT FREE. HOW MANY PEOPLE, INNOCENT OR NOT, DIED FOR OUR FREEDOM!? Yet no one complains about that. Saddam Hussien is a madman, a criminal, and a murderer. He thinks noting of annihilating his own people, he thinks nothing of using weapons of mass destruction on whoever doesnt let him have his own way. He thinks nothing of harboring terrorists. He thinks nothing of killing YOUR INNOCENT CHILDREN. Maybe this war isn't the best thing that could happen, but the alternitve frightens me more than anything else. Like I said, I've been there. Spent to much of my life in a place facing things that no person should have too. But if it means bringing freedom to a people that have none, I will go back. And I will die for their freedom, just like I would die for ours.

25th March 2003, 19:47	#2
Merlin ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ (Forum King) Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Manchester Posts: 4,209	It's a fallacy that all Iraqis hate Americans. They don't. as he faced the sun, he cast no shadow __________________

25th March 2003, 20:32	#4
fwgx Rudolf the Red. (Forum King) Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 9,314	Your argument is complete crap. That may be a reason, but it's definatly right at the bottom of the list of reasons. http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...923199-8755843 http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...923199-8755843 Some more prominent reasons are American aggression, hypocracy, terrorism etc. "We think science is interesting and if you disagree, you can fuck off."

25th March 2003, 20:51	#5
Fickle Butterknife of Justice (Forum King) Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Behind you. Posts: 5,502	I think it's funny that once someone says something that is adverse to yours, Phily, you essencially call them a liar and run away. Funny. Go read a book without pictures pabook? \| Look, a blog! \| Buy Stuff I Wrote

25th March 2003, 20:56	#6
fwgx Rudolf the Red. (Forum King) Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 9,314	I said their argument was valid but that it carried very little weight in the list of reasons people don't like the US. I try to state facts and tell the truth. Plus this is a forum, you post then go away to real life then come back. "We think science is interesting and if you disagree, you can fuck off."

25th March 2003, 19:50	#3
aeturnis Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 13	merlin, you're right, not all iraqis hate us. most are BEGGING for liberation. They cheered when we started to invade, cause they knew that they would finally get what they so desperatly needed -FREEDOM

25th March 2003, 21:22	#7
ertmann\|CPH Forum Viking (Forum King) Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: The North Posts: 3,541	America has encounraged to locals to revolt twice, America has let them down twice! America has encouraged Iraq to wage war on Iran, while secretly supporting Iran at the same time America is supporting Isreal in their twisted policy on the palestinians (i know there is two sides of this story, but like it or not, that's how it's being percived in the middle east) Alot of Americas foreign policy is aimed at keeping things in status quo, playing two sides on the same time, making them two faced. .....No wonder if some Iraqis hate you.... stating they hate you because of your freedom is just plain stupid.

26th March 2003, 00:49	#8
nature spirit Major Dude Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: nature Posts: 839	not only some of the Iraqi really hate America now because of its invasion (they don't call it liberation, mind you and there is really resistence to troops there..) but most of the arab world hates America now.. try to read sources putting some light on the Middle East.. in Egypt, which is supposed to be a US ally, the street movement is all against this war.. and they are not the simple uneducated chunck of society, it's the university students, and, most of them are from the American University of Cairo. Some are seriously getting prepared to go to Iraq and to fight next to Iraqis against the US troops.. this is happening too in Jordan, Algeria, Bahrain.. (and also in Asian countries like Malaysia, Indonesia,..) Im not saying this is right or wrong.. Im saying this is the situation... they really hate America now because they see no legitimate excuse for it, no matter if their regimes were really allies of the US. The most ironic excuse Bush gives, linking this war to Terror. As if now the US and the world will be a safer place when hundreds of new movements will be rising against the US after this war. then another war on terror will start again.. then the homeland signal will be always red.. yes it will be a safer world really.. Support Greenpeace • Propaganda Matrix

26th March 2003, 01:04	#9
MGSolidSnake5 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Right behind you Posts: 114	And Phily, you always end up sending a site that will direct you to the Amazon in England. Well, I'm not as aggressive as some people think the US is, so don't confuse me with the US government. I only live here. I also think that aeturnis said is true, too. If these people really do want freedom, I wish they weren't so afraid to talk about it.

26th March 2003, 08:38	#10
fwgx Rudolf the Red. (Forum King) Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 9,314	Whats wrong with the UK amazon site and books in general that help you understand these complex situations. The reason peole don't like America just isn't as simple as 'they hate us coz we iz free', that's a MASSIVE over simplification of a complex subject. Moreso it is an easy answer the media have spread with very little thought to the real issues. The question 'Why do people hate America', for the most part, has now become not a question but a statement of implied truth that people hate america because of your freedoms. This just isn't the case. "We think science is interesting and if you disagree, you can fuck off."

27th March 2003, 11:15	#12
padangbond Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Jakarta, Indonesia Posts: 7	It is a genuine oversimplification that the reason many non-americans dislike americans are because of "freedom". Many people around the world dislikes americans because of the perceived arrogance. They dislike bush because of unilateralism. They also dislike the fact that americans rule much of the world (de facto) but at the same time the average american's knowledge of world geography is way below average. They dislike americans because when many americans visit outside the states they expect things to be done the "American Way" and not the other way around. I know soldiers who thinks that because they fought in a war they think that they have the most knowledge on an issue, but how is it true when even the policymakers above them do not have enough understanding of the issues (such as bush and his cronies). Some of the people know used to fought in East Timor, and they think that their side was right, even though it is blatant to see that Indonesia was in fact treating Timor as a colony. Learn the issues historically, then you will have a clearer understanding.

27th March 2003, 19:07	#13
FirebladeRR Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Earth Posts: 8	I was there (in war)... even more, I lived there, you stupid shithead... you have seen nothing... you are just another idiot with big mouth! I can give you a lot of information about war. I can tell you how is to be there for a long time. would you like someone to smash your country kill your friends and familly? you better shut up!

27th March 2003, 19:13	#14
FirebladeRR Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Earth Posts: 8	peace is something that is always declared on the peace of paper, never on a warfield. freedom is something you must fight for, but when sdmebody drops bombs around you, that usually do not help. If they wanted to help people in Iraq to get its freedom they 100 better ways to do it. In Afhanistan they caught Bin Laden, ah yes... they have no idea where Bin Laden is... thats the true... people died in Afghanistan for some other reasons... not for freedom... and same thing is in Iraq... and if you know recent history a little bit, you can find more examples... exctually 90% of all you can remember are good examples...

27th March 2003, 19:35	#15
dlinkwit27 has no CT (Forum King) Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 13,236	fireblad. one thing, ti will automatticals word-wrap, so you don't need to hit enter that often ::Deviant Me::Last.fm::WhatPulse Stats::Folding @ Home

27th March 2003, 20:20	#16
Gorgeus Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Germany Posts: 53	Just wanted to reply, because I understand your feelings, but some excellent replies have allready been posted. I may point out padangbond, zootm, nature spirit and ertmen. George ertmen, this UN had is cool. I want one, this is patriotism for internationalism, so to speak

27th March 2003, 21:39	#17
FirebladeRR Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Earth Posts: 8	Well, guys, I got so mad when I read what this guy wrote. I don't know if spending my time typing this instead being home with my family, but I hope so. Some people are too stupid to understand the meaning of my anger (previous msgs), They don't even know that people in other all over the world have nations, feelings, families, pride, love, blood, tears... what do you think, do "others" also love their kids? but thanks to the others who understand me. I wish you never to be forced to face thw war. cya!

27th March 2003, 21:46	#18
FirebladeRR Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Earth Posts: 8	oops... I am very tired... ".. I dont know if spending my time... bla bla.... instead being home with my family is worth of it. I don't know does it meaning anymore..." well, good night I hope I will not dream about dead people after this...

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