Islam is evil

[ertmann|CPH]

I've had these thoughts running around in my head, playing tricks on my personal convictions, thought I’d help if I tried to write them out, and get some feedback, it might help

I'm not scared of Muslims

I think Muslims are for the most part, very likeable people, I think the Muslim guy down at my local convenience store is a wonderful person, and I’ll miss our mutual joking should he ever choose to take his business elsewhere, I enjoy my conversations with my Muslim co-worker at work very much, I miss my old Muslim neighbours from the place I lived before who would drop by with the house moms delicious cooking every other day - just because they thought we were nice fellas, I don't feel threatened in any way if an Arabic person approaches me, my friends girlfriend is Muslim - and one of the most lovable creatures ever to walk the earth, I’ve had several vacations to Tunisia, Bosnia, Indonesia and Malaysia and enjoyed it very much....

I'm scared of Islam

Actually I think Islam is a plague; I think Islam is dangerous to the Western democratic tradition. It’s not that I think Islam breeds bad people, cause obviously from my very own experiences - that is not the case. But I’m amazed and worried by the conviction and devotion many Muslims put into their faith, one is I don't understand it as a secular person - that's not what worries me, and I would never hold that against anyone, that's my problem alone - another thing is how it mixes when you put a devout Muslim into a secular western, no make that secular west European, setting.

When I’ve been visiting Muslim countries, I’ve always been amazed how much Islam penetrates every level of society, much more so than Lutheranism impacts the society where I’m from. Even in Malaysia and Indonesia, who are widely tolerant of other religions, there seems to be this ever going conflict between the orthodox/fundamentalists and the moderates, and to me it seems a lot of orthodox Muslim values are forced on moderate and non-muslims

In my own meandering experience, Muslims are more often that not so devote that they put their faith higher than the laws (to a lesser extent) and social behaviour and norms (in particular) of the place they inhabit.

As long as the number of Muslims are clear minority in any given country, they have no choice but to adapt their religion to the society them surrounds them (I think this is very possible) but the larger the minority gets the louder their voice for having Muslim practices respected in the laws and rules of society will become ever stronger.

I’m atheist, and I don't want religious values to be forced upon me, unless it's values I agree with, Lutheranism, have evolved not only to accept my values (or Muslim or Buddhist), but also to respect them.

I also think Islam could accept my atheism, but I never think it could respect it, I simply don't believe Islam to be flexible enough to do this from what I've seen around the world.

Just my ramblings, you can go on with your business now, but I’d really like some feedback

And I'm terribly sorry about the horrible English

[gaekwad2]

I don't think the difference between islam and christianity is that big.

The problem is a bit more complicated (has a lot to do with history, colonialism etc., too complicated to go into detail at 5AM, maybe tomorrow).

[shakey_snake]

I wouldn't bash Islam.
Orthodox Islam is a peaceful religion.
Obviously, there are some folk forms of it which are very violent and militant, but thats only maybe 1% of practicing Muslims.

I'm afraid what you are suspect to is a good old media mislead.

Ever since the crusades, the Mulism world has mistaken Christianity as a violent faith, and the Western World has precieved Islam to be violent.

The media continues to express this.

[ertmann|CPH]

Shakey - If you'd cared to read the post (I know it's kinda long), you'd have seen that I base I everything I said on my own experiences and don't attribute anything to media hype, you'd probably also have noticed that i nowhere call Islam a violent religion, actually im not talking about violence at all.

Im talking about middle eastern imigration to Europe, and how it could potentially lead to the values I like about my society being changed...

The whole reason i started thinking about this, was I read this very well documented article about how Europe needs have between 500.000 to 1.000.000 immigrants moving to Europe A YEAR from 2006, to have the worst effects of our aging population neutralized.

I don't feel very comfortable about that being Muslims to be honest, for the reasons stated in the post above.

[billyvnilly]

same thing with mexicans immigrating to USA, in 10yrs, they will become the majority...its weird.

[ShyShy]

ertmann, darlin', as long as I've known you, you had been one of the strongest liberals I've come across. But, for you to openly admit to a fear of a minority where some can construe as nasty racism, is quite bold, and I for one, applaud you.

For myself, I worry about any consevative religious politican gaining power. Power is too easy to abuse in the name of a god.

What the EU is experiencing with mass differnce in cultures/religion is what the US has gone through it's entire history. For a person that has lived his life, surround by people of the same culture/religion, to see his "neighborhood" change before his eyes, is unsettling. It arises questions, "how do these new people interact with my culture?", etc..

I would advise the europeans that are seriously interested on how immigration into their countries will affect them, to look at US history. A lot of it isn't pretty, but, maybe you can learn from our past mistakes and find ways to implement change that will benefit all.

I apologize for the randomness of my post. I did have a more detailed post but, as like many times before, my fingers are too slow for my mind and I kept losing track of certain points.

[will]

Nobody wants a religion not of their own forced upon them, however I don't think this problem is just restricted to Islam.

For example, the ultra-conservative christians in america are trying to eat away at the separation between church and state over in the USA.

Furthermore, I wouldn't classify Islam as a plague, but I would classify religious fundamentalism as a plague.

To give an example, in the UK there was a (black-comedic) play running which was written by a Sikh woman which depicted rape inside a Sikh temple. Outside the theatre, many thousands os Sikhs protested about this play (mainly men, too) and they totally refused to back down. In the end, the theatre gave in after some protesters rushed the stage and threw rocks.

It happens in Christianity, it happens in Sikhism and it happens in Islam.

And it is a plague on our world today.

[deeder7001]

reminds me of my grandma saying that dragons are evil beings(or something like that). or she'll say that pokemon teaches you witchcraft and how to do spells, same with yugio(sp?) and magic the gathering. the dragon i think is supposed to mean peace in chinese culture.

[ShyShy]

Originally posted by will
Nobody wants a religion not of their own forced upon them, however I don't think this problem is just restricted to Islam.

For example, the ultra-conservative christians in america are trying to eat away at the separation between church and state over in the USA.

Furthermore, I wouldn't classify Islam as a plague, but I would classify religious fundamentalism as a plague.

You read my mind, will That's basicaly what I tried to type out but couldn't.

[shakey_snake]

Originally posted by will
It happens in Christianity, it happens in Sikhism and it happens in Islam

and it happens in atheism/agnosticism.

[Jay]

yea this devotion you refer to is no different then that of the devotion of christians or any other religion for that matter. I certainly wouldn't fear it tearing down our society. Alot of it comes from the culture that has for the most part been in poverty for the last several centuries. We aren't used to this because we indulge in alot of convieniences of science and understanding much further then islamic nations. Not for lack of trying but really they have had alot of problems that they need to overcome. There are still many ultra-conservatives in our society but they are fewer and fewer as time goes by, i imagine that this will happen to the middle east before long if globalization continues.

[will]

Originally posted by shakey_snake
and it happens in atheism/agnosticism.

for example...?

[shakey_snake]

Teaching that all people should be acceptive of homosexuality, when the Bible clearly teaches that it is not acceptable. (Please notice I didn't say homosexual people, I said homosexuality, as in the lifestyle)

Secularists upset by Christians using public school buildings as places of worship, when they're empty on the weekends.

Secularists upset by teaching of creationism in public schools.

Secularists trying to remove "under God" from the Pledge of Allegence.
so on and so forth...

[mysterious_w]

I am really confused by the homosexuality thing and the church, espically by the recent appointment of a homosexual anglican bishop in America, eevn though he has a current boyfriend.

It doesn't bother me much, although it is interesting to note that my town's Anglican priest is also an active homosexual.

[baafie]

Originally posted by shakey_snake
Teaching that all people should be acceptive of homosexuality, when the Bible clearly teaches that it is not acceptable.

The bible says a lot of things that are no longer 'relevant' in a modern society. Of course, the distinction of what is relevant today and what is not, depends on who you talk to.


ertmann|CPH: The first politician in the Netherlands ever to be assassinated was one who said something very similar to what you said in your first post.

Although, it's worth noting that he was killed by an animal rights activist

[zootm]

I think that the same thing would happen, reversed, if the first countries to "get rich" (so to speak) had been Islamic. Christianity (along with most other religions) used to be a faith more similar to what you express about Islam, it's just Christian countries went through the process of becoming secular gradually, whereas most Islamic countries are being subjected to a very fast transition now, thanks to the spread of technology and culture these days.

[gaekwad2]

Historically there were two waves of Islamism.

The first was caused by the crusades, the second started in the era of colonialism, in other times islam was much more tolerant and civilized than christianity.

One part of islamists' success is caused by the sense of inferiority, by islamic countries being looked down upon by the west (which is made worse when they follow islamism: a vicious circle). Many of them are particularly sensitive after a history of being attacked and occupied, israel/palestine being just another example to them, as well as the invasion of iraq.

Of course they also cater to conservatives and bigots (like shakey*). Just like the christian right they claim to defend traditions and family values against change but in this case it's not only seen as a threat but also as something imposed from outside "by people who want to destroy islam and colonialize the world again".

Islamic countries desperately need to be secularized, but the have to be secularized from the inside.


*I made the mistake of reading his last post and almost puked. Comparing a call for tolerance to fundamentalism is just <flame kept to myself again> and a grave insult to all victims of fundamentalism.

[ElChevelle]

Originally posted by shakey_snake
Obviously, there are some folk forms of it which are very violent and militant, but thats only maybe 1% of practicing Muslims.

Unfortunately, that 1% is pretty good with explosives.

[will]

Originally posted by shakey_snake
Teaching that all people should be acceptive of homosexuality, when the Bible clearly teaches that it is not acceptable. (Please notice I didn't say homosexual people, I said homosexuality, as in the lifestyle)

Secularists upset by Christians using public school buildings as places of worship, when they're empty on the weekends.

Secularists upset by teaching of creationism in public schools.

Secularists trying to remove "under God" from the Pledge of Allegence.
so on and so forth...

Secularists want everyone to be happy, and not discriminating against people is part of that. If you say "even though you are consenting and in private YOU CANNOT DO THIS" then you are infringing on their freedom. Something america supposidly holds dear. You commie.

The current scientific model says that evolution is what happened. Teach science in the science class and religion in the religious education class and let kids make up their own minds.

Athiests may want to pledge allegence without invoking some power that they believe not to exist. This cause, however, is not one i support nor is any of my business.

[k_rock923]

Teach science in the science class and religion in the religious education class and let kids make up their own minds.

That's the best thing I've read so far in this thread.

[CaboWaboAddict]

Originally posted by will
Secularists want everyone to be happy, and not discriminating against people is part of that. If you say "even though you are consenting and in private YOU CANNOT DO THIS" then you are infringing on their freedom.

The trouble is most homosexuals want to show off to the world... it is not done in private. So what do you believe is morally objectionable? How about torturing cats? Suppose I created a recognized religion that practiced torturing cats on street corners. Would you want your children to be exposed to this?

Originally posted by will
The current scientific model says that evolution is what happened. Teach science in the science class and religion in the religious education class and let kids make up their own minds.

[gaekwad2]

Originally posted by CaboWaboAddict
The trouble is most homosexuals want to show off to the world... it is not done in private. So what do you believe is morally objectionable? How about torturing cats? Suppose I created a recognized religion that practiced torturing cats on street corners. Would you want your children to be exposed to this?

No, I wouldn't want cats to be exposed to this.

And I've never seen homosexuals 'do it' on the streets either (funny how in that context holding hands, hugging and kissing is suddenly seen as a sexual act).

[Raz]

It's because worthless parents think that their kids are somehow going to catch gay by looking at them.

[will]

Originally posted by CaboWaboAddict
The trouble is most homosexuals want to show off to the world... it is not done in private. So what do you believe is morally objectionable? How about torturing cats? Suppose I created a recognized religion that practiced torturing cats on street corners. Would you want your children to be exposed to this?

I do see your point, but homosexuality hurts nobody. Its not like torturing cats at all.

I believe that the reason homosexuals show off somewhat is because they feel repressed, and its their way of dealing with that.

(Brits will know the Dyffid character from little britain is a parody of this situation)

If nobody cared, they wouldn't bother.

[will]

Originally posted by k_rock923
That's the best thing I've read so far in this thread.

Thanks
I don't know about america, but in the UK, we have a class at junior school (and further on if you choose to take it, often combined which philosophy at 18+) called Religious Education. I think its very important for kids to learn about the diversity of different religions*, and about their own as it is part of their heritage.

*Learning is the best way to avoid discrimination.

I dissagree with so-called "faith" schools. Learning just about your own religion is very unbalanced.

Also, kids are born smart. It is best for them to know all sides of the argument so they can make informed decisions. Saying stuff is "just so" is disrespectful of their intellect.

[Wolfgang]

I agree with Ertmann, I have "seen" the same thing, even though I've only lived in Europe for three years.

There's a Muslim guy at my university who is pleasant enough, is polite and quiet and is selfish as fuck. We went whitewater rafting with a club and whenever we did any group stuff, like pack the canoes onto the bus or cook the evening meal, he said he had to go and pray. OK, so because he is Muslim he has to pray 5 times a day, which is fine, but not whenever his assistance would be appreciated. This is not related really, but it pissed me off.

Anyway, we were having an argument about immigration and how in London some streets are barely recognisable as English, as everyone's speaking Arab, all the signs are in Arab and you feel uncomfortable because you're a European surrounded by people who aren't, in Europe. A French girl pointed out that in France there was now a political party composed of French Muslims, mostly people born in France whose parents had emigrated there. If they got to power, their plan, which was by no means a secret, would be very damaging to what makes France French. The country would basically adapt itself to the Muslim population.

Everyone except the Muslim guy agreed that that was wrong and that the Muslims should adapt to the French way of life without trying to change it into what it was like in their countries of origin. He disagreed, saying that they had a right to. It was amazing how convinced he was of this and how he completely blocked everyone's opinions with phrases like "they have a right to" and "things change."

Things do change. Mohammed has entered the top 20 in Britain for new-born babies' names. Personally I think there seems to be reasonable harmony between Muslims and everyone else in Britain, and that's good. I have lots of friends who believe in the Koran and aren't in-your-face about it. In fact, none of them are, but a lot of Christians are. They worry about the decline of their faith.

I don't know about Denmark that much, but my uncle who lives near Copenhagen is scared of the encroachment of alien traditions upon Danish culture and believes the word "plague" is appropriate. Maybe a bit extreme, but he does have a point I think.

In my opinion it's a lack of respect to not adapt to somewhere you're visiting. And if you're going to stay there, then by all means keep your own traditions because obviously you have a right to them, but don't try to impose them on everyone else.

[gaekwad2]

The problem is: the more they feel pressured into adapting to a foreign culture the more they're attracted to islamism and the more they'll use it as an excuse to do exactly what they want and not care what the westerners "who hate us anyway" think.

[Raz]

A religion is a choice, not a race. Therefore to me, it does not constitute racism to want people entering into another culture to not monopolise and take over it. Practising, etc, whatever, freedom to do what you like, but when important things like laws are being changed that may infringe on others because of it, only then does a line need to be drawn.

[CaboWaboAddict]

Originally posted by gaekwad2
No, I wouldn't want cats to be exposed to this.

And I've never seen homosexuals 'do it' on the streets either (funny how in that context holding hands, hugging and kissing is suddenly seen as a sexual act).

Funny you would ASSUME I was talking about socially acceptable behaviour.

I was referring to walking with a hand on the partner's ass, french-kissing, and other things... like hearing remarks about 'sucking his dick'. And I object to this conduct in public from heterosexual couples too.

And for your information a friendly kiss on the cheek is not sexual behavior. Prolonged kissing on the mouth is.

edit: There is a place for that type of thing... in public, in front of children is not the place - gay or straight.

[ertmann|CPH]

OK, thanks for the replies everyone, however I think i was a little misunderstood

I'm not talking about fundamentalism, i think most people can agree that fundamentalism is a bad thing.

What I'm talking about are the immigration of well behaved normal hardworking working Muslims, which I do believe the majority are.

Where is the limit? how large does the minority need to be, before the rest of society needs to observe the Ramadan? to let Muslims - or the whole justice system - have trials using sharia law? to have minarets calling to prayer 5 times a day? to limit free speech when talking about subjects uncomfortable to Muslims or criticizing Islam? before pork is banned in the supermarkets because it's considered unclean in Islam? before non- or moderate Muslim women must also wear headscarf's just to avoid devout Muslim men sinning? before the entire society needs to observe praying times?

Is it when 5, 10, 15 or perhaps 50 percent of the population are Muslim? or will it never happen?

I'm not worried that we have Muslim immigration, I think that's alright. I'm worried about where that magical line is and how we find it.

I live in one of the most secular societies in the world, i think the crash is actually weaker between conservative Christians and Muslims because they share a lot of common values, more so than differences separating them.

And it just doesn't seem like a potential issue in Northern Europe, Creationism, Anti abortion, outright prohibition of gay marriages etc. is considered more or less ludicrous here (except for Ireland and the Faeroe Islands), and quite possibly this might be a substantial explanation behind the widening gap over the Atlantic.

Cabo; In Scandinavia, If anyone stood up and told a couple kissing in a park, with their hands on eachothers asses, homosexual or straight, to go somewhere else because of there are kids present, i think everyone around would brake down laughing. Since when can't kids handle seeing a couple kissing, or showing affection, that's just silly.

[Phyltre]

Perhaps I can clarify the debate reaching critical levels between creationists, agnostics, and others here:

Creationists (the ones arguing against teaching evolution in school, anyway) feel that teaching pure science in the classroom is a total crock, and misleading, and morally wrong. They do not care about origin theories that do not have practical impact on life. They see evolution as either misguided or of ill intent, or both; and a way to erode traditional moral structure in youths.

Evolutionists (or at least those who do not want Creationism taught in schools) see Creationism as brainwashing and a control mechanism that inducts students into a particular mindset without the necessary rational thought. They see blind faith (and most other faith) as insipid, and couldn't care less about religious teachings.

Therefore it is not a matter of separating the teaching of religion and science, as the quote "Teach science in the science class and religion in the religious education class and let kids make up their own minds" implies. Both sides consider their respective viewpoint to be most true, and don't care much for the other. Each side wants the other side not to exist for the(ir) children. This is not easily reconcilable.

[Bilbo Baggins]

limit free speech when talking about subjects uncomfortable to Muslims

This already happens.

before pork is banned in the supermarkets because it's considered unclean in Islam

A canteen where a friend of my family works recently stopped selling any pork related products (pork pie, sausage rolls etc) because the small group of Muslim patrons had complained about it.

I think a lot of what people are worried about in the Western world is through our own creating. By our very nature of being far too politicall correct, we are seeing ourselves as letting minority cultures pervade our way of life, because if we didnt, we seem to brand ourselves racsist.
However, it works the other way, and Western culture has started to have some fringe effects on Muslim culture. Eid cards (like Christmas Cards) have started appearing in this country, as have Ramadan calendars (like Advent calendars). Also, many younger generation women who wear headscarves wear designer fabrics for their attire.

[will]

Originally posted by Bilbo Baggins
A canteen where a friend of my family works recently stopped selling any pork related products (pork pie, sausage rolls etc) because the small group of Muslim patrons had complained about it.

May i just say, that is fucking retarded. Why the fuck should the canteen change?

[ShyShy]

Originally posted by will
May i just say, that is fucking retarded. Why the fuck should the canteen change?

If the muslim students had been smarter, one of them could have started up a canteen that followed Islamic laws pertaining to food. Not unlike the Jews with their kosher delis

Now, ertman, like I stated previously, if you want to see how immigrants can integrate their culture with their new home land, look at the many histories of the eastern and western coasts of the US. The fear you expressed is not uncommon Americans nor Britons. But, you cannot expect not to see an impact from another culture when there is a large number of population representing it. As far as it changing the fabric of the laws in your country, then people really need to stand behind a policy of keeping religion and state seperate. Like will said, you can see the US lines becoming blurred.

[will]

Originally posted by ShyShy
If the muslim students had been smarter, one of them could have started up a canteen that followed Islamic laws pertaining to food. Not unlike the Jews with their kosher delis

Now that I would be in favour of. Instead of complaining about our canteen, they should set up their own. That is how the free market works.

[Phyltre]

What!? Capitalism?

Next thing you know there'll be an influx of religion!

[MegaRock]

Islam itse;f isn't bad. Islamic Extremeists are and use a religion to get people to kill themselves all in their futile but never ending attempts to get as much power as they want.

If in their words dying for their extremist causes makes one a martyr why didn't Saddam, Osama, AlZarqui and the others kill themselves. They use the religion and get others to do it for them yet they always run in the face of danger (Osama ran, Saddam hid in a whole and the other guy ran).

Go ahead, be a martyr but expect your leaders to do the same.

[Russ]

Originally posted by Bilbo Baggins
A canteen where a friend of my family works recently stopped selling any pork related products (pork pie, sausage rolls etc) because the small group of Muslim patrons had complained about it.

Is all the other meat they sell Halal? I doubt it. So they're removing pork, which Muslims are forbidden to eat, but the rest of the meat will still be non-Halal, which Muslims are still forbidden to eat.

Heh.

(incidentally I don't think something can be both Kosher and Halal, meaning that if the meat was Halal, then Jews wouldn't be able to eat it, fantastic. [edit]I am wrong! In most cases Kosher implies Halal, maybe not the reverse though.[/edit])

[White Raven]

Originally posted by CaboWaboAddict
The trouble is most homosexuals want to show off to the world... it is not done in private. So what do you believe is morally objectionable? How about torturing cats? Suppose I created a recognized religion that practiced torturing cats on street corners. Would you want your children to be exposed to this?

Should you care if a guy simply wants to wear pink, and earrings, and flamboyantly makes his sexual preference known?
Oh no, a guy likes other guys, time to bitch!

I don't want my children like that because I want them to be little clones of me, and not express themselves using their own brains, they can only choose to be completely 'normal' and just like me.
If my kid discovers that in fact he likes penis, I will kick him out of my house because he suddenly became gay the moment he told me he was, and wasn't all his life, which was the kid I loved and nourished up until this point in time.

And a guy liking teh cock is completely harmless and harms nobody, (Unless of course it's rape, but I'm assuming it's consentual here) whereas torturing cats is intentional harm of an innocent being and has so many laws against it.
Don't bother likening gays to killing animals and young people in obscene ways, that's retarded and just proves that you don't understand that people express themselves differently.

//edit
but then again...

Funny you would ASSUME I was talking about socially acceptable behaviour.

"I was referring to walking with a hand on the partner's ass, french-kissing, and other things... like hearing remarks about 'sucking his dick'. And I object to this conduct in public from heterosexual couples too.

And for your information a friendly kiss on the cheek is not sexual behavior. Prolonged kissing on the mouth is.

edit: There is a place for that type of thing... in public, in front of children is not the place - gay or straight."

That I agree with.
I thought you were meaning somebody who just looked OMG FAGGY not making out on the streets, that annoys me too, but hey. People do it and it ain't gonna change.

Let them make their political statement, because a street corner and a theatre is an awesome place to make a political statement.
[size=]thank you Maddox[/size]

I live in The Netherlands. We have a population of 16 million and 1 million of that is foreigner. That's pretty much in my opinion. (16 million few? The Netherlands are in the top 5 of most densely populated countries with an average of 400 people per square kilometer. The Netherlands are about 40,000 square kilometers large/small.)

Ok, this would not be a problem if they would live here in peace and adapt. The problem is that many don't. Although most of them do and are friendly people, there's a higher percentage of them than with Dutch people/European immigrants, who are violent/criminal/etc.

A good example of how bad it is here:
About a week ago, a woman was getting robbed by a Maroccan. She ran him over with her car (accidentally?). The guy got between the car and a tree and was obviously dead. The guy was an ordinary criminal, he just got out of jail. Normal people think: that's right, you deserved it. His color/religion/nationality would have nothing to do with that. Now suddenly there were other Maroccans mourning and even saying "ahh he was such a sweet person". Yeah right...

Somewhat earlier a film director got killed, on the middle of the street, by some radical muslim. The director made a film about suppression of women in islam culture. The radical muslim was offended so why not kill the director right? A women acting in that film who is also a politician (AND a muslim) had to get into hiding because she was threatened by radical muslims as well.

I don't think all muslims are bad or something like that, it's just remarkable they cause so much trouble here.

By the way, homosexuals are almost always nice people who don't bother anyone. Let them live how they want to and get married if they want to, no problem.