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Old 10th November 2004, 19:01   #1
wa21guy
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Is it time to move on?

Well folks, I have been a member on this forum for years now (almost four I think) and have been using Winamp even longer, but with the departure of the core team and the lack of Winamp updates to come, I'm looking towards a brighter future elsewhere in the audio player world. Winamp just doesn't have a future and, although its great now, soon it will be surpassed.

What's the easiest to use with the most potential for updates? What's a good open source player that will probably never die like Winamp did because they were private? What's the most similiar to Winamp yet can have all of the features I want? I've tried Foobar, WMP, iTunes.... what do you all think?

Ethan
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Old 10th November 2004, 19:48   #2
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Re: Is it time to move on?

Quote:
Originally posted by wa21guy
never die like Winamp did
er, i don't see it being dead (me has internal info that's been posted elsewhere). maybe i'm sticking to a dead horse, only time will tell that but just because the core is not being developed doesn't make it dead. i've stated my views on the project as it stands elsewhere and i don't have the time to repeat/find those posts again.

as for players to use, it comes down to what you are happy with, suggestions are all fine and good but if you can't get along with the program then those suggestions mean sod all. fb2k has it's benefits though there are reports about that i've read mentioning ahead purchasing it, etc (so that could potentially be one more out of the options list). the media player market is stagnent for all players. most things have been done already and there's not much else that really can do that'd be revolutionary.

Quote:
What's the easiest to use with the most potential for updates?
most updates is not a good indicator of how good a program is since a stable program (with a longer wait between updates is a better way to go). look at fb2k, that's not seen a major update in ages (even Winamp has seen more updates in that time)

as i've said it's only you how can really make that choice, but of what's out there i'd probably go with fb2k (as i almost did before i started dev'ing winamp plugins)

-daz
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Old 10th November 2004, 20:02   #3
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If Winamp was dead, then there wouldn't be a 5.06 internal build available for beta testers :/

And even if 5.06 was to be the last ever build (which it won't be) then it wouldn't make me switch to using some other (shitty/bloated/inferior/dumbass) player... mainly, because as DrO says, the possibilities of plugins (new or old) are as powerful as they are endless.

Besides all that, the stories on all those sites are just rumours, not true. The original devteam resigned themselves (Justin, Christophe, Francis, Tom P, Mig, etc) as did other Nullsoft members (including Steve). They weren't laid off by aol, and aol has not pulled the plug on Winamp. Sure, further development might be a lot slower though... but is still continuing, with inside & outside help
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Old 10th November 2004, 20:42   #4
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where do we go from here?

and i mean, c'mon... how much more would you expect from an mp3 player. it aint gonna cook you breakfast.


the horizons for plugins is quasi-somewhat-endless. But how many more plugins are there out there that can really make your music listening orgasmic? I can think of 3 plugins that changed my experience: JTFE, DL, and Shaneh's scripts. AND THEY WERE ALL PLUGINS, NOT UPDATES TO THE INTERNAL BUILD!!! (err, is JTFE part of the internal build or just added on ?) anyways, it doesnt matter that the "core" is gone. we got plugin masters still...they are everywhere.
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Old 10th November 2004, 20:43   #5
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Hmm. And some tweaks to the defaults could be done easily. I often read reports about the bad Winamp Music quality and then it turns out that the internal MP3 Fast EQ was used.

This should be turned off (just as an example of how the tweaking should be done). For improvements like these there aren't any software gurus needed, but the overall impression will increase

eeeee eeeeeee eeeee eeeee eeeee
8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 88
8eee8 8e 8 8 8eee8 8e 8 8 8
88 8 88 8 8 88 8 88 8 8 8
88 8 88 8 8 88 8 88 8 8eee8
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Old 10th November 2004, 20:49   #6
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Re: where do we go from here?

[off topic]

Quote:
Originally posted by billyvnilly
(err, is JTFE part of the internal build or just added on ?)
all of the source files and building of the jtfe dll are down to me, nullsoft/aol has no copies of this code so you can take it as being 'added on to the internal build'. i've basically allowed them to distribute the dll freely with the winamp install and for that i get my name in the credits (a bit more off topic but some people have suggested adding a paypal button into the dll but i'm not sure about doing that )

-daz

[/off topic]
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Old 10th November 2004, 20:59   #7
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ok...good! see i was right. my top 3 features are all plugins.

[OT]@paypal, its a good idea....


...as long as it isnt required you should always deserve credit where credit is due.[/OT]
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Old 10th November 2004, 21:24   #8
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I do love Winamp guys, I just can't see it kept up forever, so I am looking now rather than later towards the future. Also, I didn't know 5.06 was in the works. How can I get on the Beta list? I'm a Software QA Engineer as my career, so I'm more than qualified.
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Old 10th November 2004, 21:36   #9
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Re: where do we go from here?

Quote:
Originally posted by billyvnilly
and i mean, c'mon... how much more would you expect from an mp3 player. it aint gonna cook you breakfast.
BUT it can make you TOAST!!! (for those of you who have been around long enough, you know where i'm comin' from those were good times )

I'm stickin' with Winamp. For a while. I don't want a built in store. And I'm kinda irked that WMP has DVD playback built in(free) and Winamp doesn't, but I can get over that with some plug-in love.

All in all, Winamp will always be my friend!

Brian
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Old 10th November 2004, 21:36   #10
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I guess my biggest problems with Winamp that I don't see getting fixed in the future is the lack of ID3v2.4 tags and how hard it is to write good plugins using .NET instead of C++ (yes, basic ones are possible but I need something more robust). I know, I know, other players don't have .NET either, but I'm just looking towards the future. I just want to see progress in the technology and I'll be happy to stay with Winamp.
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Old 10th November 2004, 21:39   #11
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Let DrO handle the C++ stuff . Don't worry about it!

Brian

[edit] I only use ID3 v1 tags, as they don't mess up my VBR stuff. I'm not sure if that was fixed in a later ID3 v2.x release, but v1 is more than enough for me. I don't need to know EVERYTHING about a song, just that it sounds good [/edit]
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Old 10th November 2004, 21:41   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by lunarboy1
Let DrO handle the C++ stuff
eh? i tend to work in pure c (with the odd bit of c++ when needed to keep those plugins nice n small )

-daz
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Old 10th November 2004, 21:43   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrO
eh? i tend to work in pure c (with the odd bit of c++ when needed to keep those plugins nice n small )

-daz
Whatever floats your boat man! Keep up the good work. I've been around since the beginnings of your work man. It's good stuff. JTFE is pretty slick.

O yea... how's PLex comin' along...
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Old 10th November 2004, 21:51   #14
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hehe, boating is fun as for plex, it's on indefinite hold until i've got a basic working k-jofol skinning plugin up and running (and due to machine changes, etc some of the original plex code has gone but... it needs a full re-code anyway)

wa21guy: the betalist is closed as such (i was one of the last added to it mainly for my jtfe work). as for the .Net thing, the current plugin api limits that happening and since all of the winamp core is plain c/c++ i'm not sure on how/if adding .net into it would work (personally i'd not be keen on it but that's just me but hey, some of the feature requests i've seen i've never understood either)

-daz
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Old 10th November 2004, 22:32   #15
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I'm no expert on the media player world, but I found something you might like. This program called MediaMonkey seems to support winamp plugins, hell, it even takes winamp skins for the player component. Free mp3 encoding too.
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Old 10th November 2004, 23:23   #16
glop
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i believe to the continuing of Winamp.
New plugin, new update (maybe the developper will give the source to continue it)

All in all, each time AOL take something it going down ( Netscape). After liberation, exploding and birth again (look firefox)

Winamp can not be dead because their is No replacement with the same flexibility (skin, plugins, options, light mode)


For all you can test Quintessential player
http://www.quinnware.com/
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Old 10th November 2004, 23:25   #17
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Re: Re: where do we go from here?

Quote:
Originally posted by lunarboy1
I'm stickin' with Winamp. For a while. I don't want a built in store. And I'm kinda irked that WMP has DVD playback built in(free) and Winamp doesn't,
in_mplayer?

And of course WiMP isn't free, it's bundled with Windows.
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Old 11th November 2004, 00:54   #18
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Lots of questions abound I'm sure, but my biggest question is:
What's going to happen to Shoutcast 3?!!?
Could one of the Llamas answer this for us?
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Old 11th November 2004, 01:40   #19
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Don't forget PowerPlayer II
http://www.powerplayer.tk

It's turning Winamp to look professional player... (DVD, Custom Zoom, etc)

Off topics:
Why not the founder buy back the Nullsoft, or he busy with new company?

The English suffix -logy denotes a field of study or academic discipline.
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Old 11th November 2004, 01:54   #20
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*cough*notjustarumor*cough* a little birdie said Winamp was for sale, like... over 6 months ago *cough*
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Old 11th November 2004, 02:25   #21
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i wonder if google is willing to buy...they are into doing new stuff lately. or can nullsoft afford to buy back their company?
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Old 11th November 2004, 08:57   #22
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Successors?

If there aren't going to be any/many more updates, as this blog entry and this register article seem to suggest, then it's going to leave a big vacuum.

I wonder who's going to step up to fill it?
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Old 11th November 2004, 12:16   #23
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winamp unlimited usually has some godo stuff written regarding things like these, when it's updated.
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Old 11th November 2004, 12:35   #24
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I actually agree Winamp doesnt have much of a future. When the devs themselves are effectively saying this its hard to argue. Ive put a fair bit of time and effort into Winamp, and have used it for years, and am also prepared to say I dont see it lasting too much longer. It'll be a sad day I give it up and say goodbye to all sorts of cool plugins and skins, many of which Ive developed myself. But it will happen.

Fb2k certainly will be the successor, regardless of whether its free or not (people will just p2p it if it isnt, or use the current version which is still pretty good). The current deal breaker for me is the lack of a decent media library, but that will eventually come. Im tempted to even code something up myself. I'll port a couple of my plugins across too.

Winamp is massively restricted by its legacy support for old plugins and skins etc. Its true you can write plugins to extend Winamp somewhat, but they end up being huge hacks just for the sake of backwards compatibility (see gen_ff.dll). You can keep on layering hack after hack to try and extend winamp, but to prevent breaking stuff it will be both very limited and a massive hack.

For example, take a look at fb2k's playlist formatting and UI capabilities. It may be possible to hack something similar onto Winamp, but the hacks involved would leave you with a pretty poor piece of code compared to fb2k. If its not to break stuff, it involves some ugly techniques. If it does break stuff, why not just use a different player. Once again gen_ff is an example here, and shows how legacy issues have restricted it.

Unless you are using some specific plugins only available under Winamp, its kinda crazy to use a player with layers and layers of hacks just for the sake of compatibility with plugins you arent even using. You can scrap it all for a player which was designed more recently with plugins and extensibility in mind from the beginning.

Winamp will live on for a couple years, especially amongst the kids that download skins by the thousands, there certainly is a significant crowd. Fb2k will take a while to catch up, but will get there. And WMP will be used by the rest of the masses who dont know better...

EDIT: Winamp will also live on with the crowd that likes to play with DSP and IO, output plugins etc too. This doesnt include me however. For me, I look at the playlist/interface, plugin API etc and media library. So a good media library in fb2k would make it a pretty damn decent player. Winamp on the other hand cant easily obtain a good playlist/interface and plugin API.

Last edited by shaneh; 11th November 2004 at 12:55.
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Old 11th November 2004, 16:43   #25
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Re: Re: Is it time to move on?

Quote:
Originally posted by DrO
fb2k has it's benefits though there are reports about that i've read mentioning ahead purchasing it, etc (so that could potentially be one more out of the options list).
For some reason there seem to be rumors floating around here that foobar2000 is soon to be purchased by Ahead and even supposed to lose its freeware status.

Just wanted to drop by quickly to say that these rumors are not true whatsoever. PP has no plans on selling FB2K and giving control over it out of his own hands.

Neither is it true that HydrogenAudio (the forum hosting it) is owned by Ahead. Only because Ahead has recruited a few developers from there that still doesn't meant that HA is not going to remain what it is. Mainly an independent forum to discuss matters of audio compression and the things related to it.

I can only hope that these rumors will disappear again soon and that the people spreading them will think a bit more about what they are saying and and not post such things without having any true background knowledge about them.

Regards, picmixer (FB2K moderator)

EDIT: the usual typos
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Old 11th November 2004, 16:48   #26
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i stand corrected (which i fully acknowledge).

-daz
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Old 11th November 2004, 19:09   #27
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You seem to be forgetting that Winamp still is very good at what it does; the goal of the Winamp team for the past couple of years has been to iron out all of the bugs and make the most perfect player they could with their existing architecture. Though development may be halted, I wouldn't say Winamp as a player is "dead" by any means.

--peace--

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Old 11th November 2004, 19:15   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by glop
i believe to the continuing of Winamp.
New plugin, new update (maybe the developper will give the source to continue it)

All in all, each time AOL take something it going down ( Netscape). After liberation, exploding and birth again (look firefox)
The difference between Netscape/Mozilla and Winamp is quite distinct. AOL is using the core technologies of winamp for it's AMP - AOL Media Player. As for Netscape, AOL was locked into using IE for a time as its default browser, per a contractual agreement, and thus had no real motivator to hold onto the Netscape source exclusively. I forsee no feasable situation where AOL would release the source of Winamp for any reason; the intellectual property is still too valuable to them, regardless of whether "Winamp" continues to be developed or not.

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Old 11th November 2004, 20:26   #29
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out of majors, iiTunes is the only one that even touches winamp
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Old 11th November 2004, 20:33   #30
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I refuse to even touch iTunes unless it supports more formats.
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Old 12th November 2004, 02:34   #31
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AOL Should Open Source Winamp

Think about it...that would enable tons of new features to be developed, and Nullsoft could be the maintainers of the master code tree, like Linus Torvalds maintains the master tree for the Linux Kernel. As for the possibility of being profitable, look at Red Hat. Some new possibilities include:

1. Advanced development of an NSV encoder for live and static file formats that's as easy to use as Windows Media Encoder (this would be COOL!!!)

2. An NSV plugin for Winamp like the Shoutcast DSP plugin

3. Continued development of Shoutcast for improved audio quality and new formats like streaming AAC

4. Built-in support of AAC and Windows Media streaming within Winamp (currently you can only do AAC with a pretty shabby plugin, and even though Winamp takes over the ASF file format, it won't play streaming...only static files)

5. Throw out all the old plugins and build a truly scalable system

6. A standard code tree for all operating systems (instead of having Winamp, Macamp, and Winamp for Linux being from separate trees)

I work in the engineering (streaming) department of a major radio broadcast group, and when I first started working there we were using Windows Media Encoder (which sounds like a tin can), so I setup a Shoutcast encoder on one of our stations for my own use, and before I knew it my boss had me setting up encoders for all of our streams because Shoutcast is just so much better.

If nothing else, the number one reason why AOL should open source Winamp is because of the name! No other player has such great name recognition...it's a brand that is synanymous with words like "fresh", "cool", "fun", etc That name recognition will never be replaced.

n0alpha
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Old 12th November 2004, 07:06   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by shaneh
I actually agree Winamp doesnt have much of a future. When the devs themselves are effectively saying this its hard to argue. Ive put a fair bit of time and effort into Winamp, and have used it for years, and am also prepared to say I dont see it lasting too much longer. It'll be a sad day I give it up and say goodbye to all sorts of cool plugins and skins, many of which Ive developed myself. But it will happen.

Fb2k certainly will be the successor, regardless of whether its free or not (people will just p2p it if it isnt, or use the current version which is still pretty good). The current deal breaker for me is the lack of a decent media library, but that will eventually come. Im tempted to even code something up myself. I'll port a couple of my plugins across too.

Winamp is massively restricted by its legacy support for old plugins and skins etc. Its true you can write plugins to extend Winamp somewhat, but they end up being huge hacks just for the sake of backwards compatibility (see gen_ff.dll). You can keep on layering hack after hack to try and extend winamp, but to prevent breaking stuff it will be both very limited and a massive hack.

For example, take a look at fb2k's playlist formatting and UI capabilities. It may be possible to hack something similar onto Winamp, but the hacks involved would leave you with a pretty poor piece of code compared to fb2k. If its not to break stuff, it involves some ugly techniques. If it does break stuff, why not just use a different player. Once again gen_ff is an example here, and shows how legacy issues have restricted it.

Unless you are using some specific plugins only available under Winamp, its kinda crazy to use a player with layers and layers of hacks just for the sake of compatibility with plugins you arent even using. You can scrap it all for a player which was designed more recently with plugins and extensibility in mind from the beginning.

Winamp will live on for a couple years, especially amongst the kids that download skins by the thousands, there certainly is a significant crowd. Fb2k will take a while to catch up, but will get there. And WMP will be used by the rest of the masses who dont know better...

EDIT: Winamp will also live on with the crowd that likes to play with DSP and IO, output plugins etc too. This doesnt include me however. For me, I look at the playlist/interface, plugin API etc and media library. So a good media library in fb2k would make it a pretty damn decent player. Winamp on the other hand cant easily obtain a good playlist/interface and plugin API.
I don't agree with you about the WMP part. I use Winamp most of the time, but I need to use WMP for playing my Chinese songs... I thought that maybe a newer version of Winamp would add Unicode support, but I guess the future is bleak..
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Old 12th November 2004, 07:45   #33
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Quote:
5. Throw out all the old plugins and build a truly scalable system

6. A standard code tree for all operating systems (instead of having Winamp, Macamp, and Winamp for Linux being from separate trees)
they already did try to do that, it was known as Winamp3

-daz
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Old 12th November 2004, 09:05   #34
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Quote:
it's a brand that is synanymous with words like "fresh", "cool", "fun", etc That name recognition will never be replaced.
though itunes/ipod is doing a good job at it.. im not saying i like itunes.. i honestly dont, but its got the name recognition, especially from those who dont know much about computers.. and lets face it, thats aols main audience(and to that same audience, itunes is also known to be 'cool' and 'fresh' and even 'fun'... if you consider people thinking they are shoving it to the man by purchasing songs from itunes fun)

There is no reset button on life... but the graphics kick ass
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Old 12th November 2004, 13:38   #35
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electricmime is right. you dont see U2 commercials dancing around w/ llamas do you? Is winamp just a genX thing? now itunes is the next big thing.

i also agree that idiots would choose itunes over winamp for the single reason that they are not good w/ computers. its so automated, little effort required. and every single person out there w/ an ipod uses it. at least there is the ipod plugin.
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Old 13th November 2004, 01:14   #36
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Isn't it ironic...

that iTunes is the AOL of music downloading. Remeber bashing AOL users because they didn't know anything about the Internet, so they used AOL? Now we bash iTunes users because they don't know anything about downloading music, and use an inferior music player.

It's interesting to think about the fact that AOL, the inferior browser company, owns a high quality and technically advanced piece of software called Winamp. There are so many compelling reasons for AOL to open source Winamp. I'll be watching closely in the years ahead to see what happens.

n0alpha
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Old 13th November 2004, 20:47   #37
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Re: Re: where do we go from here?

Sorry for the offtopic but...

Quote:
Originally posted by lunarboy1
BUT it can make you TOAST!!! (for those of you who have been around long enough, you know where i'm comin' from those were good times )
IT CAN? How come no one told me?

And Can it do Frosties aswell now?

Back to topic now, sorry

NOTE: I am Dextro!
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Old 13th November 2004, 20:49   #38
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Re: Isn't it ironic...

Quote:
Originally posted by n0alpha
that iTunes is the AOL of music downloading. Remeber bashing AOL users because they didn't know anything about the Internet, so they used AOL? Now we bash iTunes users because they don't know anything about downloading music, and use an inferior music player.

It's interesting to think about the fact that AOL, the inferior browser company, owns a high quality and technically advanced piece of software called Winamp. There are so many compelling reasons for AOL to open source Winamp. I'll be watching closely in the years ahead to see what happens.

n0alpha
And it's not like they didn't open sourced a great project before, just look at mozilla (or am I talking crap? ).

NOTE: I am Dextro!
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Old 13th November 2004, 21:18   #39
MasterViVi
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Hell, that's what happens when you skip a number.
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Old 13th November 2004, 21:33   #40
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Yeah, they shoulda went backwards like Mozilla. Ther *first* time I used Mozilla was 0.9 Beta in early 95. lmao
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