Why do dodgy "skinmaker.exe" skins get more stars...

iomegajaz · 15th June 2000, 20:42

I don't know about anyone else, but when I'm looking at the latest skins on Winamp.com, I get so frustrated when I see that someone who's put hours of work into an admittedly poor skin gets fewer stars than skins which are obviously just pics which have been put through one of those SkinMaker programs?

It makes me feel sick, the guys at Winamp.com MUST realise that these horrid eyesores have taken at most 5 minutes of "work", yet they regularly attain three stars nonetheless. It's bloody disgraceful if you ask me.

Come on Winamp.com, support the real skinmakers, let us know that all our efforts are being appreciated. Damnit.

-------
squirreltoy aka. iomegajaz

http://www.winamp.com/customize/deta...ponentId=12831

[This message has been edited by iomegajaz (edited June 15, 2000).]

Ice HAwk · 16th June 2000, 05:27

i think they do rate pretty fairly. and i do not think that the top skins go through skinmaker programs.

iomegajaz · 16th June 2000, 14:46

I'm not saying that the top skins go through skinmaker programs, I'm saying that ones which DO, get equal starridge (technical term) to those which have taken hours of work by real skinners.

Be they crap or otherwise, these unique, original (etc) skins deserve to be rated higher than equally-appealing skins made with skinmaker programs, simply cos that's cheating GOD DAMNIT.

That's what I'm saying.

I think. :/

-----

iomegajaz aka squirreltoy

El Drugo · 16th June 2000, 15:28

In my personal opinion, I think that there are rating problems in both categories. I mean, you're probably right when you said that pic-skins could made up in few minutes of work by using skinmaker programs, but, on the other side, metal-skins too often contain ripped parts, and, with some exception, most of them look too much similar each other. Your skin rocks, that's a fact, and it rocks 'coz, i figure, you work a lot with pencil on a sketch book roaming into your fantasy. But, as for what I've seen since more than 2 years, your attitude it's not the most popular.
The same is for the so-called pic-skins. Too many pic-skinners may think: "right, take a pic, resize it in 275x116 pixels format, cut and paste the parts for hidden buttons ('coz today I'm a little bit less lazy than usual) and that's all!" Personally, I prefer pic-skins, but the ones well done. That means: customize the buttons according to the pic and the meaning of it (not only a mere cut an paste in the <buttons files> ), choose a picture that fit in the right half of the skin, taking in consideration the fact that you got a very small area for your pic fits good (usually between the "song-name" bar and the shuffle-repeat button), take care of the positiong of the pic (just to avoid bugs like: a part of the look covered by the "song-name" bar, or a part of the smile cut off by the shuffle button), and last (but not least) study how to avoid flat effects and give the skin 3d effects.
As you can see, a well done skin (metal or pic) request lot of hours of work, (for pic-skins expecially when you do the eqmain) and all need to be sketched in many elements. Maybe the rating system sometimes is objectionable, but, in my opinion the winamp.com revs are the few ones whose take in consideration (at the same level) every skin category... Too many skins sites are strongly built on "metal-texture orthodoxy"
:-)

El Drugo · 16th June 2000, 15:34

I forgot...
I mail here the location of my skin here at winamp, let me know what you think about!

Cheers,
Andy JKR
@-)

El Drugo · 16th June 2000, 15:37

I forgot...
I mail here the location of my skin here at winamp, let me know what you think about! http://www.winamp.com/customize/deta...ponentId=17129

Cheers,
Andy JKR
@-)

GeneralAldo · 17th June 2000, 02:04

Back in college, I had a drawing/Art professor explain that we shouldn't be concerned at the length of time it takes to make a drawing. You can fill a page with a charcoal drawing in 10 minutes, when it can take weeks to finish a complex line drawing. That doesn't make the charcoal drawing any less relevant.

I personally start off making an image in photoshop. Then I drop my image/images into a skin making program. Step 3 is back to photoshop for further modifying. Usually my skins do take several hours but if an effective skin can be produced quickly, I have nothing against it.

Aldo

old and quite mad · 17th June 2000, 05:18

General Sir,
Do you have any examples of your work you could point us to?
Thanking you in advance,
OAQM

kamykjastor · 17th June 2000, 08:15

But is it right to photocopy someone elses
charcoal drawing, and then scribble on it
and call it your own???

I use the same method as you do...
I take captures of images I want to use
for my theme, or draw them if necessary, and
then when I am happy with the bitmaps, I run
them through a skin program for butchering
(cutting up). And why not? I don't cut
meat with my teeth, I use a knife right?
Afterwards I add and edit HEAVILY until I am
satisfied that it is a work of art.

But if I were to just take a screenshot of
a game, run it through a skin program, and
call it done, that would be like the above
mentioned photocopy with some scribbling on
it. And I believe that is the real issue
here... Creativity, and hard effort as
opposed to "Oh pretty picture, let's see if
I can get five stars for having some software
cut it up for me..."

iomegajaz · 17th June 2000, 08:34

El Drugo: I think your skin's very good, nice use of a two-primary-colour scheme, appropriate use of sybolism (flag etc) and simplistic text headers. Very nice.

GeneralAldo / Kamykjastor: I think I understand where you're coming from on this, but I really do believe that a skin isn't really a skin unless you make up each BMP yourself.

I don't know of many skinmaker programs, but the one I did find simply called for a pic or pics to be imported onto a canvas with three 275/116 sections, then a "style" chosen for the buttons etc, ie "transparent", "windows" et cetera.

I don't think I'm explaining this as eloquently as I should, so here's a prime example of what should NOT rate any higher than 1/5 (in my opinion).
http://www.winamp.com/customize/deta...ponentId=12151

Please don't feel obliged to comment on the subject matter I chose for my "shoddy skin" example, it's the first one in "Human" that I can tell was made with a skinmaker app.

-------
iomegajaz aka squirreltoy

[This message has been edited by iomegajaz (edited June 17, 2000).]

KaMi · 17th June 2000, 19:45

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GeneralAldo:
I personally start off making an image in photoshop. Then I drop my image/images into a skin making program. Step 3 is back to photoshop for further modifying. Usually my skins do take several hours but if an effective skin can be produced quickly, I have nothing against it.

Aldo<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree that's the way I do it... using skinner program saves a lots of time. Do you think this looks like made with skinner: http://www.winamp.com/customize/deta...ponentId=19700, I have used Skin Master and Corel Photo-Paint AND lots of time with this!

------------------
------------------
Visit KaMi's homepage
and check out my skins

old and quite mad · 17th June 2000, 19:57

That is a mighty fine lookin' skin right there and it deserves the stars.

El Drugo · 19th June 2000, 15:09

[QUOTE]Originally posted by iomegajaz:
[B]El Drugo: I think your skin's very good, nice use of a two-primary-colour scheme, appropriate use of sybolism (flag etc) and simplistic text headers. Very nice.
---
Thank you very much, iomegajaz, 'm glad you've appreciated my skin.

I don't think I'm explaining this as eloquently as I should, so here's a prime example of what should NOT rate any higher than 1/5 (in my opinion).
http://www.winamp.com/customize/deta...ponentId=12151

Please don't feel obliged to comment on the subject matter I chose for my "shoddy skin" example, it's the first one in "Human" that I can tell was made with a skinmaker app.

---
I don't wanna give too much to comments about that skin you've mentioned, by the way, in my personal opinion, I agree with you. The buffy_manipped skin shouldn't deserve more than 2 stars, 'coz it was made by a skin maker without any attempt to customize (and it means, work on it!) any parts of the skin. The eqmain, moreover, is a strong evidence of what I mean.
Ending up...
I don't wanna offend or abuse anyone, expecially the author of the mentioned skin...
RESPECT TO ANYONE, 'coz anyone got the freedom to choose how to work following his/her ideas.

Andy JKR
@-)

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15th June 2000, 20:42	#1
iomegajaz Balled and Chained Alumni Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 5,310	I don't know about anyone else, but when I'm looking at the latest skins on Winamp.com, I get so frustrated when I see that someone who's put hours of work into an admittedly poor skin gets fewer stars than skins which are obviously just pics which have been put through one of those SkinMaker programs? It makes me feel sick, the guys at Winamp.com MUST realise that these horrid eyesores have taken at most 5 minutes of "work", yet they regularly attain three stars nonetheless. It's bloody disgraceful if you ask me. Come on Winamp.com, support the real skinmakers, let us know that all our efforts are being appreciated. Damnit. ------- squirreltoy aka. iomegajaz http://www.winamp.com/customize/deta...ponentId=12831 [This message has been edited by iomegajaz (edited June 15, 2000).]

16th June 2000, 05:27	#2
Ice HAwk Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 6	i think they do rate pretty fairly. and i do not think that the top skins go through skinmaker programs.

16th June 2000, 14:46	#3
iomegajaz Balled and Chained Alumni Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 5,310	I'm not saying that the top skins go through skinmaker programs, I'm saying that ones which DO, get equal starridge (technical term) to those which have taken hours of work by real skinners. Be they crap or otherwise, these unique, original (etc) skins deserve to be rated higher than equally-appealing skins made with skinmaker programs, simply cos that's cheating GOD DAMNIT. That's what I'm saying. I think. :/ ----- iomegajaz aka squirreltoy

16th June 2000, 15:28	#4
El Drugo Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 24	In my personal opinion, I think that there are rating problems in both categories. I mean, you're probably right when you said that pic-skins could made up in few minutes of work by using skinmaker programs, but, on the other side, metal-skins too often contain ripped parts, and, with some exception, most of them look too much similar each other. Your skin rocks, that's a fact, and it rocks 'coz, i figure, you work a lot with pencil on a sketch book roaming into your fantasy. But, as for what I've seen since more than 2 years, your attitude it's not the most popular. The same is for the so-called pic-skins. Too many pic-skinners may think: "right, take a pic, resize it in 275x116 pixels format, cut and paste the parts for hidden buttons ('coz today I'm a little bit less lazy than usual) and that's all!" Personally, I prefer pic-skins, but the ones well done. That means: customize the buttons according to the pic and the meaning of it (not only a mere cut an paste in the <buttons files> ), choose a picture that fit in the right half of the skin, taking in consideration the fact that you got a very small area for your pic fits good (usually between the "song-name" bar and the shuffle-repeat button), take care of the positiong of the pic (just to avoid bugs like: a part of the look covered by the "song-name" bar, or a part of the smile cut off by the shuffle button), and last (but not least) study how to avoid flat effects and give the skin 3d effects. As you can see, a well done skin (metal or pic) request lot of hours of work, (for pic-skins expecially when you do the eqmain) and all need to be sketched in many elements. Maybe the rating system sometimes is objectionable, but, in my opinion the winamp.com revs are the few ones whose take in consideration (at the same level) every skin category... Too many skins sites are strongly built on "metal-texture orthodoxy" :-)

16th June 2000, 15:34	#5
El Drugo Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 24	I forgot... I mail here the location of my skin here at winamp, let me know what you think about! Cheers, Andy JKR @-)

16th June 2000, 15:37	#6
El Drugo Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 24	I forgot... I mail here the location of my skin here at winamp, let me know what you think about! http://www.winamp.com/customize/deta...ponentId=17129 Cheers, Andy JKR @-)

17th June 2000, 02:04	#7
GeneralAldo Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 4	Back in college, I had a drawing/Art professor explain that we shouldn't be concerned at the length of time it takes to make a drawing. You can fill a page with a charcoal drawing in 10 minutes, when it can take weeks to finish a complex line drawing. That doesn't make the charcoal drawing any less relevant. I personally start off making an image in photoshop. Then I drop my image/images into a skin making program. Step 3 is back to photoshop for further modifying. Usually my skins do take several hours but if an effective skin can be produced quickly, I have nothing against it. Aldo

17th June 2000, 05:18	#8
old and quite mad Major Dude Join Date: May 2000 Location: The PLANET Pluto Posts: 786	General Sir, Do you have any examples of your work you could point us to? Thanking you in advance, OAQM

17th June 2000, 08:15	#9
kamykjastor Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 17	But is it right to photocopy someone elses charcoal drawing, and then scribble on it and call it your own??? I use the same method as you do... I take captures of images I want to use for my theme, or draw them if necessary, and then when I am happy with the bitmaps, I run them through a skin program for butchering (cutting up). And why not? I don't cut meat with my teeth, I use a knife right? Afterwards I add and edit HEAVILY until I am satisfied that it is a work of art. But if I were to just take a screenshot of a game, run it through a skin program, and call it done, that would be like the above mentioned photocopy with some scribbling on it. And I believe that is the real issue here... Creativity, and hard effort as opposed to "Oh pretty picture, let's see if I can get five stars for having some software cut it up for me..."

17th June 2000, 08:34	#10
iomegajaz Balled and Chained Alumni Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 5,310	El Drugo: I think your skin's very good, nice use of a two-primary-colour scheme, appropriate use of sybolism (flag etc) and simplistic text headers. Very nice. GeneralAldo / Kamykjastor: I think I understand where you're coming from on this, but I really do believe that a skin isn't really a skin unless you make up each BMP yourself. I don't know of many skinmaker programs, but the one I did find simply called for a pic or pics to be imported onto a canvas with three 275/116 sections, then a "style" chosen for the buttons etc, ie "transparent", "windows" et cetera. I don't think I'm explaining this as eloquently as I should, so here's a prime example of what should NOT rate any higher than 1/5 (in my opinion). http://www.winamp.com/customize/deta...ponentId=12151 Please don't feel obliged to comment on the subject matter I chose for my "shoddy skin" example, it's the first one in "Human" that I can tell was made with a skinmaker app. ------- iomegajaz aka squirreltoy [This message has been edited by iomegajaz (edited June 17, 2000).]

17th June 2000, 19:45	#11
KaMi Junior Member Join Date: May 2000 Posts: 48	<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GeneralAldo: I personally start off making an image in photoshop. Then I drop my image/images into a skin making program. Step 3 is back to photoshop for further modifying. Usually my skins do take several hours but if an effective skin can be produced quickly, I have nothing against it. Aldo<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I agree that's the way I do it... using skinner program saves a lots of time. Do you think this looks like made with skinner: http://www.winamp.com/customize/deta...ponentId=19700, I have used Skin Master and Corel Photo-Paint AND lots of time with this! ------------------ ------------------ Visit KaMi's homepage and check out my skins

17th June 2000, 19:57	#12
old and quite mad Major Dude Join Date: May 2000 Location: The PLANET Pluto Posts: 786	That is a mighty fine lookin' skin right there and it deserves the stars.

19th June 2000, 15:09	#13
El Drugo Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 24	[QUOTE]Originally posted by iomegajaz: [B]El Drugo: I think your skin's very good, nice use of a two-primary-colour scheme, appropriate use of sybolism (flag etc) and simplistic text headers. Very nice. --- Thank you very much, iomegajaz, 'm glad you've appreciated my skin. I don't think I'm explaining this as eloquently as I should, so here's a prime example of what should NOT rate any higher than 1/5 (in my opinion). http://www.winamp.com/customize/deta...ponentId=12151 Please don't feel obliged to comment on the subject matter I chose for my "shoddy skin" example, it's the first one in "Human" that I can tell was made with a skinmaker app. --- I don't wanna give too much to comments about that skin you've mentioned, by the way, in my personal opinion, I agree with you. The buffy_manipped skin shouldn't deserve more than 2 stars, 'coz it was made by a skin maker without any attempt to customize (and it means, work on it!) any parts of the skin. The eqmain, moreover, is a strong evidence of what I mean. Ending up... I don't wanna offend or abuse anyone, expecially the author of the mentioned skin... RESPECT TO ANYONE, 'coz anyone got the freedom to choose how to work following his/her ideas. Andy JKR @-)