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Old 5th July 2014, 00:40   #81
ChiggyChiggy
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Most of the solutions given here that recommend EAC or MP3Tag dont seem to care for the fact those just dont cut it for individual tracks, theyre just good for a full album that youre ripping most of the time. It should go without mentioning that the Autotag feature was pretty much just for that whole purpose.

In addition, even if you do have the full album but you have no idea what the songs are called (due to them having obscure names like Track 01, unknown track, etc..) Those programs just dont cut it because they cant recognize songs. Only Gracenote and Musicbrainz can do that, and theyre total lifesavers at it. (and no, MP3Tag's Musicbrainz online source integration doesnt have any detection abilities like the official Musicbrainz client has)


Ive come to realise DrO is Einstein incarnate, because while the expected alternative would have been to use FreeDB like almost every other non Gracenote powered music player uses, he chose the not as well known Musicbrainz that has the AcoustID feature thats the same, and at times even better than Gracenote's TrackID technology. Winamp is truly in safe hands with him presiding its development lol.

While a royal pain to use for multiple tracks, Musicbrainz's official client "Picard" has become my new tagger of choice (in addition to TuneUp for those times Musicbrainz doesnt get it), for CD's its also great, its not just limited to individual tracks.

*If you have issues with Winamp, ensure you have the currently latest version Winamp v5.666 build 3516 & its patches that fix several issues
*To remove the currently dead Winamp online stuff, see here: removing online stuff
*If you miss the Autotag feature: Gracenote CDDB Autotag alternatives
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Old 5th July 2014, 00:56   #82
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what's to say freedb isn't also an option? where possible multiple options will be used, but it may be done on a rolling basis.

and if i was Einstein, i'm sure i'd be able to fashion more time to do things than i can. as i'd expect things to more likely be a few months later than first stated as the rough goal (especially as i'm helping out without SHOUTcast aspects currently).
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Old 5th July 2014, 12:14   #83
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Well this is great news.

I have been a Musicbrainz fan for years and the winamp forum has barely mentioned it apart from the last month or so. With all the "winamp should die as you don't provide gracetone" posts.

It is a much better system for tagging your music collection.

DrO,

I have spent a lot of time with Musicbrainz and know a fair few inner workings of it.
Finally if you do have proper tags multiple artists sharing the same name can be grouped together properly rather than all lumped under the same name.

I think you will need to decide what MB tags move across. I would suggest as many of them:
MusicBrainz Artist Id
MusicBrainz Recording Id
MusicBrainz Release Artist Id
MusicBrainz Release Group Id
MusicBrainz Release Id
MusicBrainz Track Id

That will give you the best compatibility in the future.
To be honest properly tagged with musicbrainz can led to whole new directions of how you want your player as you can link to a load of stuff.

Can I ask how you are planning to lookup this information?
Your own database (free) copy of Musicbrainz on Winamp servers or using their (paid or free) API? Their free API has lookup limits and I suspect that we could (depending on how many users are left using Winamp) hit those limits. I have not dealt with the licensing to their paid API directly but I do know someone that has.

For the cover art (The Cover Art Achieve). That is a recent addition to Musicbrainz in conjunction with archive.org. So there is a fair amount to of art missing still but going fairly rapidly.
I suppose you need to work out what level of granularity you need to go down to here. Is a generic cover art for that Release Group ok or do you want it for that actual Release (UK original release from 1999, re-release in Japan 2012, etc). AFAIK lastfm is very generic and will just get (some sort of art).

Musicbrainz goes into so much detail (often why people struggle with Picard) you will need to decide what you want to get out of it. I cannot imagine it will be much fun to select many versions of the release.

Users obviously want (as in any development) a magic button that does everything for them Previously this was Auto-Tag. But when you get options you need to decide what one (or ones) you give the user.

Personally I would be against multiple options for providers but obviously biased. But if you do implement this can have options to turn this off/choose which ones.

(PM me if needed)

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Old 5th July 2014, 14:42   #84
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Must the entirety of the tags Musicbrainz puts in files be used.... Musicbrainz adds 19 tag sections of its own to a file, only about 3 of which are useful in showing song info.

Cant just the AcoustID tag it puts be used to add to a file? Similar to the UNIQUEFIELD that the Gracenote setup used to use (presumably to make it easier to detect a song in the database, albeit it wasnt that useful since all it putted in that tag was a link to a broken page)

*If you have issues with Winamp, ensure you have the currently latest version Winamp v5.666 build 3516 & its patches that fix several issues
*To remove the currently dead Winamp online stuff, see here: removing online stuff
*If you miss the Autotag feature: Gracenote CDDB Autotag alternatives
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Old 5th July 2014, 15:53   #85
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The AcousticID is unique for the 'recording' (of a piece of music). That recording can appear on multiple releases.
These recordings are 'tracks' on an album, single, greatest hits and various artists compilations.
So it is not as simple as that.
You really need to take the collection of AcousticIDs for each recording for each release (album, single, etc) to establish which release to assign the correct album, etc.

Musicbrainz goes beyond the use simple tagging. It is a whole database of music.

Musicbrainz will not add any tags. The 19 tags you are referring to is (likely) with the Picard tagger (made by the Musicbrianz people and include the Musicbrainz specific tags that I mentioned). And this could vary with what is in the database, if no field is there for that release you will not always see it in Picard.
You can customise it to provide more fields if you want to.

There are other tags. Release type, record label, cat number, etc that Picard assigns (by default) and some may/may not want these these in the no doubt slimmed down version of the tag capabilities to come in Winamp. I cannot imagine they want the Amazon ID in there for Winamp users.

The current Winamp team (yes, you are a team Daz ;-) ) will have to decide of this. If they wanted who did the cover illustration for that release to be included they could if they wanted too.

Also what version of Picard has different tags the last betas of v1.3 has more v1.2. (there have been hundreds of updates in the beta but they sooooo slow to release them to production)

Personally I am not worried about the "spam", as some refer it, as having a load of information in my tags I find useful. It is a handful of bytes extra for each digital music file and gives me detailed information if I need it.

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Old 5th July 2014, 18:58   #86
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Interesting.... You do have a point there, Muscbrainz does pay attention to detail, and apparently everything submitted to it gets reviewed.... unlike Gracenote that can have whatever someone submits, even if its just pure gibberish >.>

Wait so if a good deal of those spammy tags are simply from the Picard program and just for it, then what are the "standard" Musicbrainz tags? Aside from the ones you mentioned earlier that all start with "MusicBrainz_" or are those just it?

*If you have issues with Winamp, ensure you have the currently latest version Winamp v5.666 build 3516 & its patches that fix several issues
*To remove the currently dead Winamp online stuff, see here: removing online stuff
*If you miss the Autotag feature: Gracenote CDDB Autotag alternatives
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Old 5th July 2014, 20:22   #87
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Yes Musicbrainz does work on a review system.
There are also (fairly detailed) style guidelines, etc so things DON'T ENTERED IN FULL CAPS, etc (like I see so often on freedb)
So in general if it is in Musicbrainz it is more accurate than most.

For the tags. Well there are (AFAIK) very few (if any) "official" tags for MP3 ID tags, Flac, ogg, etc

Often these are open to add whatever you see fit. You can make your own tags up.

Obviously there are useful ones that media players like Winamp use.

Title, Artist, Album Artist, Year, Track, Disc, etc.

Picard considers others to be useful for tagging your music collection just like any tagging program. Other taggers might tag things like BPM, etc that is not stored in the Musicbrainz DB.

The Musicbrainz_* tags I stated before are for linking back to the Musicbrainz database. As DrO already knows these are linked to many things and are used on lots of music sites already to get a consistent accurate links to albums, artists, recordings, etc. So when I am referring to Musicbrainz tag I am talking about those.

Now Winamp will never be (forgive my presumptions DrO) a full on complete tagging solution with every tag under the sun. I imagine we will try and have the similar ones to what we had in the previous Autotag feature in Winamp. I do not know what extra potential tagging information commercial providers like Gracenote, etc could provide. Maybe Winamp previously took everything, maybe they only offer limited amount, maybe Winamp chose to only use selected tags to populate the auto-tagging.

Now there is an option to review different ones if needed (there is no BPM, and genre is folksonomy based in Picard, Musicbrainz doesn't have a dedicated genre (too subjective) and uses "tags" but not used that much) but I imagine we would want many of the more dedicated MusicBrainz* tags so we can link back easily to the database and expand on what is on offer.

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Old 5th July 2014, 20:44   #88
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my main issue[s] with MB tags is the following:

1. I want to control what tags an app writes to my files, esp if they are non-standard tags / outside of spec, or not specifically called for by the spec. afaiac, this would include TXXX tags or similar.
2. I want to know the purpose & effect of any tag written to my files.
3. I want to be sure tags that might be benign to winamp's usage, are also benign to other apps usage.

that third one is pretty tricky, b/c in some other apps, like for example Squeeze Server, MB tags will over-ride other "normal" tags, and you can't "get out of it."

I don't think its invalid for a user to expect the above. if given that kind of control, I am actually fairly excited about being able to tap into MB. but by the same token, I don't want it to be a simple "on / off" switch for MB specific tags. I can envision scenario's where some MB tags are useful to me, while others are not.

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Old 5th July 2014, 21:32   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rovastar View Post
MusicBrainz Artist Id
MusicBrainz Recording Id
MusicBrainz Release Artist Id
MusicBrainz Release Group Id
MusicBrainz Release Id
MusicBrainz Track Id
that was about all i was considering using (i've got things all noted down somewhere but don't have it to hand to confirm). as we don't need to support everything as most of the API methods just don't seem to need those aspects anyway.

there's a lot of things raised which i'll try to answer / follow-up on as soon as i can, but for the time being, i'm somewhat more pre-occupied with SHOUTcast (so might not be until i'm back on Winamp duties that i'll necessarily respond to relevant points / questions made from the last few posts).
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Old 5th July 2014, 22:53   #90
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MrSinatra,

Well if another app doesn't intend to use the TXXX tags then it would never reference them. Therefore the app you mention must actually *want* to use them if you to had them. It is a concious decision. Maybe the implementation isn't (or wasn't) the greatest and you had problems. Often this is lack of understanding of these tags and their meaning rather than issues that they exist or not.
However you should not exclude all the other good uses of this because of that scenario. I imagine many people would want these - I don't want to sound fanboyish but they are becoming fairly common practice now to want to use the MB specific tags.
But all that said an option not to tag them could be a possibility if you really wanted it.

I imagine (but no inside knowledge so obviously not sure) that DrO usage of these tags is not a benign one. I envisage them being used in Winamp. e.g. Grouping different artists with the same name, etc, potentially linking to artists pages information (wikipedia, etc), obtaining release art, etc

DrO,

No problem.
I wasn't expecting any sort of reply on a Saturday night. What are you doing anyway, go have a beer. ;-)
I hope that my comments are useful rather than just inquisitive.

Also for some reference here is what Picard does tag so it includes the Musicbrainz specific (TXXX tags)
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/PicardTagMapping

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Old 5th July 2014, 23:00   #91
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i used that page to work out what was needed when i did the basic work of adding the fields to a few of the core plug-ins for reading purposes.

if only i was a drinker but i'm really not one and after a full day gardening (hadn't trimmed the hedge for 2 years so that was hard going), i'm now trying to finish off things towards a DNAS release as it needs to be done next week.


and to add to the comment above about using MBids, a lot of the services we've looked at for other things rely / provide them and so it's well worth having decent 'base' support for them since it is a) an additional way to ensure albums are grouped correctly, allows for using local files if trying to use an external streaming service (which is something that was good with the defunct Winamp Cloud behaviour of using local files over server-side where possible), and makes it easier to move between services instead of being linked to a custom set of tags.

so overall from what has been looked into so far, for more openness and usability amongst other systems, it's a better way to go and it's only a handful of tags that may be added (is no guarantee all will be known to add / read anyway) - far more useful than some of the obscure tags that people have requested to be default parts of the UI/library.
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Old 6th July 2014, 00:27   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rovastar View Post
MrSinatra,

Well if another app doesn't intend to use the TXXX tags then it would never reference them. Therefore the app you mention must actually *want* to use them if you to had them. It is a concious decision. Maybe the implementation isn't (or wasn't) the greatest and you had problems. Often this is lack of understanding of these tags and their meaning rather than issues that they exist or not.
u misunderstand me. yes, obviously the other app wants to use them, that does not mean necessarily that I want them used by the other app, or in the tags to begin with. why? b/c the mere presence of MB tags can impact an apps performance in ways you can not change or desire.

in other words, I am a winamp user, and I have, many times in the past, used gracenote to auto-tag files. the new reality is that MB will now be used. so b/c that is true, I may have to decide to either A. not use winamps autotagging or B. live with potentially undesired behavior in an app that isn't [or maybe even possibly is] winamp.

I am speculating, but its informed speculation based on what I have read on other apps forums. I am still excited to see how MB tags can be exploited, esp via acoustic fingerprinting, dupe matching, etc. ...but otoh I don't want to create problems for myself either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rovastar View Post
I imagine (but no inside knowledge so obviously not sure) that DrO usage of these tags is not a benign one. I envisage them being used in Winamp. e.g. Grouping different artists with the same name, etc, potentially linking to artists pages information (wikipedia, etc), obtaining release art, etc
I'm all for that. by benign I merely meant all behaviors were expected/intended.

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Old 7th July 2014, 16:16   #93
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MrSinatra,

I am not sure I misunderstand I think we have different viewpoints.
My point is that the apps want you to use them and can even expect to use them so much so that they possibly stop you using anything else without problems. I suppose any new features of apps can have problems and some people will always pine for older version with different functionality.

I have already know so apps do have some issue with MBIDs as with any new feature they could release. I do think most of them have been sorted out. I know XMBC has recently gone down the Musicbrainz route and they had/have some teething problems. These have been misunderstanding from the app implementation and user tagging wrongly. However I would say that most I have followed have been sorted out with later revisions.
Internet searches will often catalogue old problems and they will be more apparent than fixes. I am sure I browsing/searching the web for Winamp problems will show many issues however most will be fixed as they are so old and new releases have been made.

Of course you will have to make a decision like everything you use and changes in software that evolves. But I truly think there will be less issues than you think there are.

The most useful thing here is if we do have problems we will need to highlight these in the new development of Winamp so if you have potentially or real problematic edge cases that is great. First and foremost so that Winamp isn't an problem and it's implementation of tagging isn't so wrong it messes up other applications where possible.

Obviously it is sea change in how Winamp does things in future releases (as for many other changes that DrO is no doubt beavering away at) but we have little options as have been discussed.

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Old 8th July 2014, 02:39   #94
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Well, I am in the process of ripping my entire library of CD's to Google Play, where I can access them (1) through my Android smartphone, (2) through my Chromecast plugged into my TV, & (3) on any internet-connected PC. And I will always be able to get the files back in the original form. (which totally saved me when my hard drive died last month and was replaced by the manufacturer) :-) I spent months uploading the first ~80%~ of my CD collection, then I got busy with schoolwork for a few months, and now I've come back to finish up. "WHAT?!?! Why aren't the track titles automatically being populated? [hours of research lead me to this thread] OH..."
But here's the thing: all of the info that was held in the freely-accessible CDDB is info that lives in the public domain. What, people have a need to search information that exists in the public domain? THIS SOUNDS -=PRECISELY=- LIKE A JOB FOR GOOGLE! Think about it: "Google's mission is to organize the world's information and make it universally accessible and useful." Well Google, you've done an amazing job so far; now put your money where your mouth is and bring this information-search functionality to the Google Play Music Manager app. :-) I've just submitted the idea to the Google Play team, so we shall see...
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Old 13th July 2014, 07:43   #95
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Sorry to see the end of the Auto tag feature as it accessed the best database available.
hopefully the replacement is as good as, if not better the the Gracenote auto tag.
I personally have been using Gracenote prior to the time it changed it;s name to Gracenote, the original data base was compiled from submitted CDs by fools like me thinking it would remain a open source data base (how wrong we were). As soon as the data base was big enough, they (the Server operators) change the name to Gracenote and started charging a fee to use.
Since then I have been submitting all my CDs to Freedb and my ripping program uses it and Musicbrainz as well, but most of the results come from freedb.
Like Gracenote the information obtained is only only as good as the information submitted by users.
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Old 22nd July 2014, 21:57   #96
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I don't use Winamp very much - but in using it to transfer some music from CD to my phone I ran into this issue. So it no longer knows the artist and track info - that sucks, but not the end of the world - however this appears to have ramifications beyond tagging, making Winamp unusable for what I want to do.
1. Each new CD I rip overwrites the other on my PC because they are all named "Unknown Artist"
2. Even if I rename the playlist and each track, the subsequent rip still overwrites - because the directory name on the PC (under My Music) is "Unknown Artist"
3. If I rename the directory to the album name - then Winamp no longer can play the tracks.

Love to hear a solution as my trip is coming fast and I really would like to have music on my phone ...
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Old 22nd July 2014, 23:13   #97
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Ok i figured out. I think. I have to name the album artist tracks before I rip it. May I suggest a note prominently displayed on your website for us newbies. Would have saved me quite a bit of time.
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Old 23rd July 2014, 00:07   #98
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my advice would be to use something else to rip, like dbpoweramp or EAC.

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Old 23rd July 2014, 01:23   #99
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3. If I rename the directory to the album name - then Winamp no longer can play the tracks.

Love to hear a solution as my trip is coming fast and I really would like to have music on my phone ...
CTRL-P to open Preferences. Go to Media Library->Local Library->Watch Folders and select Rescan now. Assuming the top level of the watch folder (generally \Users\<username>\Music) is set correctly, and that the renamed album folder is still in that folder tree, then Winamp will see the renamed album.

If that doesn't work, then after you've run the above commands, exit and restart Winamp.
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Old 25th September 2014, 18:21   #100
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Shame what happened to Gracenote....
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Old 26th September 2014, 07:06   #101
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Since Auto-Tagger won't work now, how do I disable it and turn off any calls to Gracenote? Do I simply uninstall the Auto-Tagger plug-in?
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Old 26th September 2014, 14:06   #102
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unless you run the function it won't try to use any of the Gracenote code anyway. but you can remove ml_autotag via the library plug-in preferences page and choosing uninstall (just as can be done with any of the other plug-ins not needed).
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Old 27th September 2014, 10:52   #103
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unless you run the function it won't try to use any of the Gracenote code anyway.
Well, actually, my Winamp always makes a call to Gracenote whenever a new CD is selected. I can't find a setting to tell it not to. I uninstalled the Auto-Tagger plug-in and it still flashes up a little window with a Gracenote icon upon finding a new CD.

Ordinarily this would be nothing other than a minor annoyance, but for some reason the call out crashes Windows Explorer for making bad C+ calls. I want it to stop.
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Old 27th September 2014, 10:58   #104
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Well, actually, my Winamp always makes a call to Gracenote whenever a new CD is selected. I can't find a setting to tell it not to. I uninstalled the Auto-Tagger plug-in and it still flashes up a little window with a Gracenote icon upon finding a new CD.

Ordinarily this would be nothing other than a minor annoyance, but for some reason the call out crashes Windows Explorer for making bad C+ calls. I want it to stop.
Winamp > Prefs (Ctrl+P) > Plug-ins > Input > CD Plug-in (in_cdda.dll) > config:
Uncheck: Use MusicID
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Old 27th September 2014, 11:01   #105
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Winamp > Prefs (Ctrl+P) > Plug-ins > Input > CD Plug-in (in_cdda.dll) > config:
Uncheck: Use MusicID
Thank you! I knew this was buried somewhere.
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Old 27th September 2014, 11:31   #106
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you'd only referred to the auto tagger which is why I'd not said anything about CD handling. you could also delete all or the gtacenote DLLs from the plug-ins folder to be extra sure none of that code is used.
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Old 27th September 2014, 22:39   #107
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Gracenote is still working for me with Winamp, it says "bad disk" or some other message when fetching the titles, but it still works and gets the correct information. I have not upgraded to version 5.666, so I don't know if that has anything to do with it. but anyway, Gracenote works for me, even though it gives an error message. I'm using version 5.65.

I should explain, I was ripping from CD to MP3's, not playing the cd. I just ripped three cds, and they all got the titles from Gracenote, like I said even with an error code from Gracenote.
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Old 27th September 2014, 22:43   #108
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if it's finding the information, it will be due to having been stored in the local cddb cache that Winamp uses to store manual edits and already obtained information from when the service was accessible.

as such the 'bad request' message still means you've not got access to the Gracenote service.

and why not update to the current Winamp build ?
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Old 27th September 2014, 22:55   #109
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I didn't find out there even was a new version of Winamp until yesterday, so I did download 5.666, but have not installed it yet. now I'm afraid to, since it's getting the titles from somewhere. I've never ripped these cds before, so I don't know what you mean by local cddb cache, since these were brand new cds. thanks
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Old 27th September 2014, 23:01   #110
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i've no idea then as that's the only other way for the information to be obtained i.e. existing local cddb cache or manual input.

if it's working (which i highly doubt as we've had people over a range of Winamp releases confirm it doesn't work) then it's got to be some quirk of the Gracenote system as we have no agreement with them to use any of their services and so it should not be working.

i wouldn't use 5.65 due to some of the bugs it introduced which 5.666 + plug-in patches resolves.
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Old 27th September 2014, 23:14   #111
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nice to be back on the forum after so many years DrO, and I don't know what the bugs were in 5.65, but I've used it ever since it came out, and ripped hundreds of cds as well as playing MP3's with absolutely no problem. I've been using Winamp as you can tell, since the very early days, and used to write many avs presets. but thanks for the info, and hopefully you can understand why I am very leery about changing anything.
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Old 27th September 2014, 23:20   #112
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i can see why you wouldn't want to update but there was a whole load of things i added / fixed with the 5.66x releases (when it looked like that was going to be it). all of which is covered in the first 2 posts of the release thread -> http://forums.winamp.com/showthread.php?t=373755
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Old 27th September 2014, 23:46   #113
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that was a huge amount of updates DrO, and I do have other software that rips and fetches the titles, but I've always liked Winamp much more, so if my 5.65 stops working because of Gracenote, I will certainly upgrade to 5.666. but if it ain't broken for me, I'll stick with what I have. hope you guys get the opportunity with the new owners to do the same awesome work you have always delivered. I remember the daze with Justin so involved, and what fun that was. good luck..
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Old 28th September 2014, 00:07   #114
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Hi Indyrod. Long time.....

Maybe it's fetching the titles from CD-Text?
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Old 28th September 2014, 00:19   #115
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completely forgot about CD-Text support (which was always a bit hit and miss with the Sonic implementation i found).
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Old 28th September 2014, 00:50   #116
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Everything about the Sonic implementation was a bit hit and miss.
Especially seeing as we never got any updates from them since around 2010(?), not even after new Windows OS releases....

Put it this way.... I won't miss it :-)

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Old 20th October 2014, 17:41   #117
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Hey DrO, How is the Musicbrainz integration going?

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Old 21st October 2014, 18:59   #118
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us.freedb.org for CDDB

got a question. I use a different program now, to rip to MP3, and it uses us.freedb.org to get the cddb titles, and works like a charm, and faster than Winamp. I was getting the cddb from Gracenote, but today it finally quit fetching them, so I guess I will upgrade Winamp now to the newest version. My question is, since Winamp lost the license for Gracenote, why oh why, can't you patch it to get the cddb from freedb, and solve the problem? seems like a pretty simple update to me, but maybe not.
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Old 22nd October 2014, 11:16   #119
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Hi Indyrod,
Yep, you'd think, but as a coder and open source lead myself, if DrO had nothing else to do it might be a different story but I gather it's not even his main job now and sometimes it is hard to find a spare minute in the day.

There has been discussion about freedb - I can't recall if others reckon it was okay or not - but there's no doubt that integration in Winamp would be a wonderful thing and I would love it if it was there.
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Old 23rd October 2014, 14:05   #120
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I cannot imagine there will be any patches/changes to the current winamp version at all until the new winamp comes out sometime next year where there will be add-on overhaul of all the disbanded features including this one.

I imagine that free providers is going to be the way forward. So realistically we have Musicbrainz or freedb options for the open source world. Possibly something like discogs (the most extensive out there but not like to the CD id) but that is private but publicly accessible so not sure how that would work with their api.

Musicbrainz has the most functionality (music fingerprinting, CD id's, it's own artist and release id's that are used all over the place.) so that makes most sense to use. And likely, if you read this thread, something that will be used, others may be used as some sort of backup/alternative sources.

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