Old 16th March 2006, 02:37   #1
spiderbaby1958
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Cervical Cancer Vaccine "controversial"

http://niemanwatchdog.org/index.cfm?...howcaseid=0036

The human papillomavirus (HPV) has been proven to cause cervical cancer, which kills around 5,000 U.S. women each year and hundreds of thousands worldwide. Thankfully, there are two vaccines in the pipeline that could effectively eliminate HPV. Many would like to see such a vaccine included in normal childhood inoculations, like measles, mumps and rubella. Says one Nobel laureate quoted in the article, “It has the potential to save hundreds of thousands of lives each year.”

Yet the odds of these vaccines receiving the final push toward FDA approval are slim. Why? Because HPV is a sexually transmitted disease, most often encountered (in mild strains) as genital warts. And conservatives in Washington argue that eliminating the threat of HPV can only promote casual sex. Specter quotes Oklahoma Republican Senator Tom Coburn, a physician, as saying: “Pre-marital sex is dangerous, even deadly. Let’s not encourage it by vaccinating ten-year-olds so they think they’re safe.” Public health has become a strictly moral issue.
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Old 16th March 2006, 03:07   #2
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Maybe being a moderate, I would have to agree with the consevatives here. McDonalds is a more dire threat to public health than this.

When I was a kid, STDs were called VD, and they were sort of a laughing matter nicknamed the "fungus-among-us". Take drugs for a few days and things went away. Many times that left us sterile, so much the better right?.

Then we figured out that the gays were dying of some unknown plague that we now call AIDS. The "clap" became penicillin resistant. Incurable herpes went nuts. The drugs to fight gram negative venerial diseases give you cancer. What syphillus does to babies born to infected women is a cruelty that I never want to witness again.

Some of us figured out that keeping our pants on was a good idea.

The rest of us taught you kids stupidity.

Teaching people that being promiscuous has a dire cost is absolutely correct.

Punishing them for making bad choices is not. BUT dedicating resources to save people from a behavior that they are well aware is risky and a half.

Sorry. My money goes to innocents.

Cure AIDS?. Nope. It's 100% preventable. Don't use IV drugs and don't be a homosexual. The people that got it from blood transfusions are all dead.

The BIs keep it in our beds.

Last edited by rockouthippie; 16th March 2006 at 03:23.
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Old 16th March 2006, 03:20   #3
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Youthful stupidity or no, it might prevent someone who isn't expressing the virus from passing it on to a future spouse, which is both sad & unfair to the spouse. Looks like there's no known cure for it, all the more reason to stop its spread if we have the capability.
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Old 16th March 2006, 03:41   #4
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That would only take ordinary responsible behavior. AND WEARING A RUBBER ISN'T IT!.
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Old 16th March 2006, 03:50   #5
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I see what you're saying, but if a person doesn't have the experience (or knowledge) to make the correct decisions then I can't bring myself to pass judgement on them.

I get the impression from talking to friends overseas that viewing disease as a punishment for bad decisions is a uniquely American phenomenon. For example a friend of mine in Belgium was perplexed when someone said that a musician who'd died of cancer deserved it because he was a cigarette smoker. The idea was completely foreign to him.
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Old 16th March 2006, 04:25   #6
spiderbaby1958
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Another rockout hippie classic

Quote:
Originally posted by rockouthippie

Punishing them for making bad choices is not. BUT dedicating resources to save people from a behavior that they are well aware is risky and a half.

Sorry. My money goes to innocents.

If you're a moderate, I'm Britney Spears.

If you have any kind of health insurance, or if you pay taxes, your money goes to HPV, like it or not. The question is: do you want your money to go toward paying for a vaccine, or toward treating women with fully developed cases of cervical cancer? Which do YOU think is going to drive up the cost of health care for everybody?
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Old 16th March 2006, 04:33   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Early Devil
For example a friend of mine in Belgium was perplexed when someone said that a musician who'd died of cancer deserved it because he was a cigarette smoker. The idea was completely foreign to him.
You're saying they don't understand causality as it applies to free will?
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Old 16th March 2006, 05:06   #8
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Originally posted by Phyltre
You're saying they don't understand causality as it applies to free will?
I'm sure they certainly do, but they don't apply that understanding in the vindictive way we do here in the States. I believe it stems from a stronger belief in redemption and forgiveness than you usually find here, as well as respect for others' privacy.

Of course I can't speak for what everyone believes because I have frequent contact with only a very few people overseas, but this is the general impression I get from the way they express these things.
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Old 16th March 2006, 10:02   #9
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Re: Another rockout hippie classic

Quote:
Originally posted by spiderbaby1958
If you're a moderate, I'm Britney Spears.

If you have any kind of health insurance, or if you pay taxes, your money goes to HPV, like it or not. The question is: do you want your money to go toward paying for a vaccine, or toward treating women with fully developed cases of cervical cancer? Which do YOU think is going to drive up the cost of health care for everybody?
5000 people dying of anything is the proverbial "drop in the bucket". AIDS is so far also a "drop in the bucket".

When every hungry child in the country has good food and every person can get basic medical care, then I'm gonna worry about exotic and relatively rare STDs.

This is a USA problem. We'll drop a million trying to separate siamese twins, but Johnny goes hungry and goes to a crappy school that teaches him to make stupid assumptions like "If you're a moderate, I'm Brittany Spears".

The United States. Capable of the greatest scientific knowledge and skill in medicine. Also nearly impossible to get the simplest, most basic medical care if you don't have insurance. A third of us don't.

Illness, even of the most simple, easily treated kinds, goes untreated, while our special interests get billions to treat diseases that are 100% preventable by simply keeping your pants on.

As one of the uninsured, because some relatively cheap medical problems put me in a risk group that makes it very hard to get insurance, f*ck the medical community and f*ck the insurance companies.

I hope I didn't sound like a conservative there

Curing cervical cancer (what a horrible thing) would be great. How about a damned band-aid?. How about emergency rooms that don't cost $100 a second?. Or filthy hospital rooms at $12000 a day that aren't as clean as a Motel 6?.

Sure we'll go to Mars, develop the "Mother of all bombs" and spend billions on this, that or the other thing. But we didn't get bang for our buck.

I want to look at and be a healthy person that had minor medical stuff taken care of before it got serious without going bankrupt.

Now I am in agonizing pain, just for need of a few thousand in dentistry. I will be there until I come up with $5000 to get some teeth fixed. The reason?. I am what used to be called the middle class. Now they call me the working poor.

My dog gets basic medical care because I can afford that.

Luckily I am more dignified than to take my car keys and scratch beemers at the hospital. I wonder if I took a sledgehammer whether I could do $100 a second damage to a brand new sports car the doctor is driving?.

Maybe I should get the mexican street gang to knock my errant teeth out. It would be cheaper, and I wouldn't have to buy spraypaint to cover up gang tags.

But if I send dirt to hell, I'll be the one that gets arrested.

Everything here is ass backwards and diffusing the real major problems we face as normal people who go to work, mind our own business, go to church and are kind to the people around us.

Then you can get sick and go to the hospital to get mugged.

Last edited by rockouthippie; 16th March 2006 at 10:27.
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Old 16th March 2006, 13:56   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Early Devil
I'm sure they certainly do, but they don't apply that understanding in the vindictive way we do here in the States. I believe it stems from a stronger belief in redemption and forgiveness than you usually find here, as well as respect for others' privacy.

Of course I can't speak for what everyone believes because I have frequent contact with only a very few people overseas, but this is the general impression I get from the way they express these things.
I see what you're saying, I was just being a little facetious.
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Old 16th March 2006, 14:06   #11
spiderbaby1958
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Maybe I should get the mexican street gang to knock my errant teeth out. It would be cheaper, and I wouldn't have to buy spraypaint to cover up gang tags.

But if I send dirt to hell, I'll be the one that gets arrested.

Yes, that's all pretty terrible. No wonder you want to bomb everyone in the middle east to the stone age.

But we're talking about a vaccine that has already been developed by a private sector company that is surely going to make their investment back as the rest of the world scrambles to adopt it. The issue here is FDA approval so doctors and parents in the US can choose to give the vaccine to young girls, just in case they don't manage to go through their entire life living up to your idea of responsible behavior. FDA approval will cost nothing.

Incidentally, there are forms of HPV that are not transitted sexually. I'm not sure if they are covered by the vaccine.

If we had a Canadian-style single-payer health care system, Not only would your dental problem be taken care of, the government would look at this vaccine from the more rational point of view of cost. An HPV vaccine would save us all a lot of money, because an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

One BIIIIG reason why health care is so expensive in America is that millions of people can't afford to see a doctor until they need the pound of cure. Often, they wind up in the emergency room, and then the hospital needs to recover a small fortune from the uninsured patient, often with little success, and so the hospital passes on the loss to everyone else. We already have socialist medicine in this country, but it's a kind of broken, chaotic socialism whose only benefit is that it keeps the insurance companies in business.

Last edited by spiderbaby1958; 16th March 2006 at 14:44.
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Old 16th March 2006, 15:16   #12
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It boils down to the big lie.

Sex is NOT SAFE!. A condom makes it safer. But really?. Who uses one all the time?.

So do we spend resources helping young women to remove one of the many risks that sex involves or do we educate them to the TRUTH.

The TRUTH is that sex is only "safe" under very narrow circumstances. If it were safe, 20% of us wouldn't have genital herpes.

Which gives the better return, education or a vaccine that cures one of the many things that will put you in a world of hurt.

Teaching safe sex is ridiculous. There is no such thing.

I must say that the republican rhetoric around this is distasteful, but giving kids a shot and a condom isn't the way to help.

I have a high school friend that I've known for 35 years that got herpes when she was a teenager. If you think that didn't change her whole life, you guessed wrong!. Just a few too many beers one night is all it took. A lifetime of acyclovir and men that said "Herpes... NO WAY!". Add that to being sterile as a result.

As far as Canada, that's great. But I doubt they'll buy this drug either.

Quote:
No wonder you want to bomb everyone in the middle east to the stone age.
Do they stutter when they say their goal is to kill all the Israelis and us?.

I believe them and therefore believe that we should remove our mortal enemies with dispatch and quit farting around.

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Old 16th March 2006, 16:22   #13
spiderbaby1958
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Which gives the better return, education or a vaccine that cures one of the many things that will put you in a world of hurt.
That's a false choice. Education and vaccination aren't mutually exclusive. A serious health problem like cervical cancer ought to be attacked from every angle.

Do you think that if a ten-year old girl gets a hpv vaccine, she's immediately going to think to herself "Oh boy, now I can have all the sex I want!"???

Americans only apply this kind of logic to sex, because we're all puritain/libertines who can't get our minds areound a healthy moderate idea of sex. For us, there's abstainance and promiscuity and not much else.

No one would seriously suggest, for example, that we don't put seatbelts in cars, because people will think they can drive fast. Or not brushing your teeth, because using a toothbrush might encourage you to eat too many sweets.

Your logic just isn't logical, and your morality isn't moral. You WANT people to suffer for violating your idea how people ought to behave. You can spin it and twist it any way you want, but what it boils down to is: "Cancer is good, because cancer keeps our women in line." and "When other people don't behave as I think they should, they deserve to suffer."

Which is bullshit, incidentally. Married women contract this virus. It doesn't just go after the "promiscuous."

I am SO done with you.
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Old 16th March 2006, 17:20   #14
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My only argumnet against this vaccine is some recent studies have linked innoculating infants and the rise of autism. So maybe adding another thing to that mix isn't the best solution.

Maybe if people want to get the vaccine, when they're old enough to decide for themselves, they can choose to do so.
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Old 17th March 2006, 07:28   #15
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"Public health has become a strictly moral issue."

No Mr. Spectre NO!.

Public health is a completely practical issue. We don't make decisions based on the bible in this country.

Decisions like these should be made without "bible thumping". Whatever does the most good should be done.... period....

The bible does contain PRACTICAL information that we have included in our cultural heritage. The rules about sexual conduct, I think, are more of a practical issue than GODS OVERPOWERING WILL.

This was especially true before about 50 years ago when there was no cure for any STDs.

The bible contains other rules that are practical, like not eating pork. Is that in there because God burned a bush or is it in there because in those days pork could very easily be deadly?.

The reason to be scrupulous about our sexual activity is not because "Jesus said so". The reason is that it's dangerous.

Yes or no on this drug?. I don't know. But these decisions being made on a religious basis is not what this country is about.

I want cold, hard practical numbers. Whatever does the most good within the resources available is what we should do. No catechism, just cold hard facts.

I am leery of vaccines, because many drugs that we use have later proven dangerous. The pill gives women cancer. ***** nearly killed my friend and reduced his lifespan etc.

Whatever makes the bulk of us healthier is the bottom line. So save your sermon for the pulpit Mr. Spectre. This sometimes christian man sees no use in a catechism lesson. This not Gods wrath. It's a virus.

Quote:
Do you think that if a ten-year old girl gets a hpv vaccine, she's immediately going to think to herself "Oh boy, now I can have all the sex I want!"???
Frankly, I think that schools are teaching exactly that. The emphasis is on preventing VD not by abstaining from sex, but from employing devices and drugs to make a very risky behavior less risky. The problem is, as our illegitimacy and disease rates show, that this is a false security.

Kids are having sex far too young and catching far too many diseases and having far too many unwanted babies. If this weren't the case, I wouldn't have an opinion about what they did at all. Heck, I like sex.

Because nature mutates things and invents new diseases when we cure the old ones, the only way we will ever see STDs eliminated is if people quit having irresponsible sex.... period... Not because God said so, unless you believe that, but because it's the truth, it's practical and it's responsible.

I think the 22% herpes number tells the tale!.

Last edited by rockouthippie; 17th March 2006 at 08:28.
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Old 17th March 2006, 13:10   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by rockouthippie
It boils down to the big lie.

Driving is NOT SAFE!. Seatbelts make it safer. But really?. Who uses one all the time?.

So do we spend resources helping young men and women to remove one of the many risks that driving involves or do we educate them to the TRUTH.

The TRUTH is that driving is only "safe" under very narrow circumstances. If it were safe, there wouldn't be almost 40,000 fatal traffic accidents every year in the US.

Teaching safe driving is ridiculous. There is no such thing.
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Old 17th March 2006, 15:28   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by gaekwad2
It boils down to the big lie.

Driving is NOT SAFE!. Seatbelts make it safer. But really?. Who uses one all the time?.

So do we spend resources helping young men and women to remove one of the many risks that driving involves or do we educate them to the TRUTH.

The TRUTH is that driving is only "safe" under very narrow circumstances. If it were safe, there wouldn't be almost 40,000 fatal traffic accidents every year in the US.

Teaching safe driving is ridiculous. There is no such thing.
That's actually ALL very literally true. Maybe you were trying to draw some contrast with it, but I don't see it. Driving isn't safe. We only do it because we think the benefits outweigh the detriments.
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Old 17th March 2006, 15:52   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Phyltre
That's actually ALL very literally true. Maybe you were trying to draw some contrast with it, but I don't see it. Driving isn't safe. We only do it because we think the benefits outweigh the detriments.
yes, but if you took away the seatbelts and the airbags and lowered the proficiency level for passing a driving test, surely it would be a good deal less safe.

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Old 17th March 2006, 15:56   #19
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No, according to rockouthippie it would be safer because then people would stay at home or go back to using horse-carriages.
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Old 17th March 2006, 17:23   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Phyltre
That's actually ALL very literally true. Maybe you were trying to draw some contrast with it, but I don't see it. Driving isn't safe. We only do it because we think the benefits outweigh the detriments.
Yes, but there is certainly degrees of "safe" driving, and not teaching those who drive about them is lunacy.

Likewise, there is certainly degrees of "safe" sex, and not teaching those who have sex is lunacy.

The point is that there is no contrast.

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Old 17th March 2006, 17:42   #21
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I guess a contrasting point would be that driving all over the place has benefits while having sex all over the place is generally detrimental...

anyway, back to the original argument, the idea that innoculating children will make them more likely to become whores is retarded. Quite frankly I barely remember being innoculated as a kid agains Measels, Mumps, and Rubella. Additionally, I didn't know what the hell any of those diseases really were, other than something bad you didn't want to get and that this shot prevented you from getting them. No one told me how you would get these diseases or that now you can do this all the time with no fear of getting this disease.

All the info that was given is that these are nasty diseases and this shot prevents them. Case closed. Did the fact that I got this shot make me feel like I should hang out with people who have the Measles, Mumps or Rubella? no. It's still prudent to avoid sick people. Likewise it's still prudent to avoid STDs whether you are innoculated against one of them or not.
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Old 17th March 2006, 17:49   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mattress
I guess a contrasting point would be that driving all over the place has benefits while having sex all over the place is generally detrimental...
Is it? I mean, I've had a lot of fun and fulfilment having sex, and never contracted an STD or made anyone pregnant, largely because I practice safe sex. I guess the many other sensible people I know and I must be exceptions to that rule.

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Old 17th March 2006, 18:48   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mattress
Rubella.
Rubella aka the German measles is a tragic disease. It isn't too bad, it's just the measles.... unless you are pregnant. Then it will turn your baby into wreckage.

It may be different, but usually in the USA it's people that are my age (44) give or take 3 or 4 years that have the gun mark scar on their left shoulder. The big epidemic was in the late 1960s. I didn't think any younger or older people were innoculated. I know my sister who is 6 years younger wasn't.

The vaccine stood a 50/50 chance of making you feel really sick, but unless you liked brothers and sisters who were brain damaged and missing limbs, you took the shot.

Yep zoot, you can say you haven't had any problems in practicing safe sex..... and I say, that if you are promiscuous that the key word here is YET!.

Minors should not be having sex. I think that rather than giving kids condoms, that mandatory and sufficient counseling to correct the innappropriate behavior be employed.

The idea that children cannot be controlled and guided is a lazy failure in parenting. I assure you that a diligent father can absolutely control the behavior of his children. I also assure you that sexual experimentation can be at least significantly delayed until a child is of a more reasonable age than the average today which is 12, and moved to an age which was 17 in my generation.

Having been educated in old school sex-ed, which didn't focus on prevention, but abstinence, I was fully aware of condoms and their use.

I did not find help with the schools, but rather an attitude that it was impossible to control the behavior of children and that the only choice was to hand out condoms.

I assure you, that even with a strong willed child, that this is absolutely untrue. This is the case if parents are too lazy or too busy to supervise their children. Neither is any excuse. Many parents even allow their minor children to have sex in their own house.

Driving was mentioned. How about you drive at 12 and wait until you're 16 to have sex?. At least for driving, you need a license. 16 instead of 12 would help.

The goal here is to have children reach their majority without having children and without having STDs. I assure you this is absolutely possible.

Last edited by rockouthippie; 17th March 2006 at 19:05.
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Old 17th March 2006, 18:58   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by rockouthippie
Yep zoot, you can say you haven't had any problems in practicing safe sex..... and I say, that if you are promiscuous that the key word here is YET!.
And if you drive a lot, the chance of permanent injury in a car crash is a YET! thing too.

I balance it off by not driving, you see. To be fair, though, I'm not promiscuous.

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Old 17th March 2006, 19:05   #25
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1 in 5 people is not permanently injured in a car crash, but 1 in 5 people have herpes.

Maybe you should wear a Buick and not a condom
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Old 17th March 2006, 19:43   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mattress

anyway, back to the original argument, the idea that innoculating children will make them more likely to become whores is retarded.
Because somebody brought up the point that innoculations could cause mental defects earlier in this thread, I actually read your post to say "the idea that innoculating children will make them more likely to become retareded is whores."

Heh. Coincidence.
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Old 17th March 2006, 20:45   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Phyltre
Because somebody brought up the point that innoculations could cause mental defects earlier in this thread
That was me who brought that up.

and I read your thought as "becoming retarded whores"
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Old 17th March 2006, 20:57   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
Is it? I mean, I've had a lot of fun and fulfilment having sex, and never contracted an STD or made anyone pregnant, largely because I practice safe sex. I guess the many other sensible people I know and I must be exceptions to that rule.
Just lucky.
No matter how good of a free throw shooter someone is, they eventually miss one.


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Old 17th March 2006, 23:48   #29
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Originally posted by shakey_snake
Just lucky.
No matter how good of a free throw shooter someone is, they eventually miss one.
Just like driving, eating, breathing in public areas, and a million other things. Everythings a risk. Sex is perhaps a particular risk, yes, but to say that I haven't done a thousand or more riskier things in my life is purely incorrect.

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Old 19th March 2006, 05:59   #30
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Yeah zoot, but VD is the gift that keeps on giving.
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Old 19th March 2006, 09:55   #31
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Old 19th March 2006, 10:15   #32
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Blah from a scot?. You could do better. Northern europe is in my state to farm, play the joyous sound of the bagpipe, and wear a skirt. You wouldn't want to argue with any of them, cause they'd be playing the jig at your fun funeral.

I'm an american mutt dog zoot. My ancestors were tossed out of every "decent" country in the world.

If you think I am a conservative catholic man, maybe you should try my friends that are scots here. Even though they rarely stand over 1 meter and a half tall, they could knock over a tree by yelling at it.

Last edited by rockouthippie; 19th March 2006 at 10:55.
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Old 19th March 2006, 10:50   #33
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See, I use that as a "laughing" thing. I was laughing at the joke!

And I like my skirt

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Old 19th March 2006, 10:58   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
And I like my skirt
Wear your kilt with honor, there is bravery and honor in your tradition. And I know that there is honor that you have been taught by that tradition.

Fierce warriors, and gentlemen.

When you are a father "Mr. Zoot" your children will do you credit. And in 20 years, you'll be a little closer to being dilligent to make sure that you tell them not to hurt themselves.

I dunno how she rolls in Scotland these days, but the scots that are here and my age make me look like a candy striper.

I'm just a slavic hessian.

Last edited by rockouthippie; 19th March 2006 at 11:23.
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Old 19th March 2006, 11:20   #35
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I prefer "Fierce Gentlemen", but I suppose so.

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Old 19th March 2006, 11:42   #36
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Don't tell me that you would stand for injustice. You are a scot and you don't find anything to fight now. If you did, I'd have fear.

You love your giant labradors, and treat them like your children, just as this hessian loves his rottweiler.

Peace. But you will open up a can of "whoopass" if crossed.

I have never seen you say anything that was mean.

Everyone should be proud in their heritage, because most of us rock.

As men, we love our children, our dogs and our neighbors.

And we find genuine sorrow when the people we love hurt themselves.

I can tell that you are a MAN like me. You will meet harm to your childen like a viper on steroids.

Welcome to being an adult.

Last edited by rockouthippie; 19th March 2006 at 11:58.
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Old 19th March 2006, 15:04   #37
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Are you drunk or something?

The problem with Scotland, like basically everywhere in the world, is that it's full of assholes.

And, as previously discussed, I hate dogs (it's more of a "phobia" thing than anything rational though). I'm not sure what your point is here, though.

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Old 19th March 2006, 15:52   #38
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this thread is getting quite surreal now.

im not complaining tho. most entertaining. more please!

"Getting stoned is wonderful and we are wired up for it."
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Old 20th March 2006, 01:44   #39
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I'm just pointing out that zoot and the traditions of scots aren't as liberal as he would say and that his own perceptions in rhetoric wouldn't match his actual belief.

I am sure that when zoot is a father, that like most scots, will be a redneck of unprecedented proportions.

Paternal, strict and immutable. The scottish men in my country make me look like a liberal.
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Old 20th March 2006, 03:42   #40
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That's not surreal!


THIS is surreal!
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