Old 22nd December 2010, 02:56   #1
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This is the freakin ride.

This costs $0 more than the conventional MKZ. You are giving up 50 horsepower. Still 193 horsepower and the fact that it can accelerate to 47 mph without using the gasoline engine at all, makes American metal proud.

I have my stocking hung on the chimney. I wish Santa would fill it up with Mariah Carey, just for a song. It probably would be more expensive that the MKZ at it's 35 grand base price.

Of course, I am like Tiny Tim putting nose glue on a showroom window. On the other hand, I'm not driving a Prius that is like driving a Geo metro with gadgets and a piano in the back.

http://www.lincoln.com/cars/mkz/?sea...101222024547:s

I've seen this ride. This is freaking sweet. 39 mpg. 190 ponies. This is the chit.
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Old 22nd December 2010, 07:18   #2
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Old 24th December 2010, 03:49   #3
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If fuel economy is the main goal, wouldn't something like a 2.5-3L diesel make more power, more torque and get better fuel economy in a heavy car like that?

The euro makers have been doing that for a while now and they get much better figures than 39mpg. The Mercedes E250 CDI does around 50mpg.
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Old 24th December 2010, 04:49   #4
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i think economy.... without (for once) sacrificing almost all of the machine's performance was the emphasis atmo...

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Old 24th December 2010, 05:50   #5
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Except it doesn't deliver better performance than a diesel equivalent would. That Lincoln has a quoted 0-60mph of 8.5s. The E250 cdi I mentioned is nearly a second quicker, is a similar weight/size car and both make similar power (200hp for the turbo diesel, 156 + 35 for the hybrid).

The main difference, from a performance standpoint, is that the 35hp the electric motor provides would barely offset the weight of the electric motor, batteries, cabling and controllers.
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Old 24th December 2010, 22:24   #6
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it was just a guess and lincoln hid the engine size on that page too well for me to find anyway.

honestly?
fuck hybrids, go pure electric if you're going to bother carrying such a heavy battery.

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Old 25th December 2010, 20:06   #7
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The Mercedes E250 CDI does around 50mpg.
With a base sticker of $96,000, it ought to have something going for it.
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Old 25th December 2010, 23:20   #8
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With a base sticker of $96,000, it ought to have something going for it.
It was just an example of a diesel or turbo diesel which is roughly the same size and weight. The engine isn't the reason that car is expensive, and it's not even the most fuel efficient model they make.

If you want a cheaper example, then a Ford Mondeo diesel will do 0-60mph in 8.4 and return around 45mpg average.
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Old 26th December 2010, 04:19   #9
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My nearest 2 gas stations don't even sell diesel. I'd have to drive a few miles. I know there was a problem with emission standards on "clean diesel" cars with some exceptions.



This one gets 25mpg. That's not remarkable. It seems to be a technology completely ignored by US car manufacturers. The diesel cars we get here are rated for fuel economy fairly similarly to their gas counterparts.
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Old 26th December 2010, 14:30   #10
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All things being equal, a modern diesel should produce less harmful emissions overall per unit of power produced, compared to a petrol engine, provided both are properly tuned.

I think part of the reason certain technologies are ignored in some countries is because it's just too hard to market to them, especially if they've been tainted for some reason. Say diesel to a diesel to a lot of people and the first thing that pops into their mind is a truck with clouds of black smoke billowing out it's stacks. To them, it's old and dirty, and it would probably take a long time and more marketing dollars than it's worth to change their minds.

It's the same reason we're unlikely to ever see nuclear power used here in Australia. Too much FUD and not enough facts. So we'll just keep burning coal for most of our baseload power until someone comes along with something that doesn't conjure up images of nuclear explosions, meltdowns and the after effects of the Chernobyl disaster etc.

Hybrid's, in comparison, are a much easier sell, as they're a newer technology which has been marketed (very well) as being a "greener" way to power a car, regardless of whether or not it's the best method for the purpose at hand.

In some cases hybrids work really well. The Volt (although perhaps not a traditional hybrid by definition) is one example where it works brilliantly if you do mostly short trips with a lot of stop-start driving (which is typical for most people who live in a city). If you can plug it into the mains power between trips it's even better again.
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Old 26th December 2010, 19:26   #11
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There has to be more to it. There are a few diesel cars available in the USA, but none of them have spectacular fuel economy. I'm sure if we did have 60 mpg models available domestically, reminiscences of 1960's diesel trucks wouldn't stop American consumers.

The thing that would stop American consumers from hybrid technology is that the cars aren't up to "snuff". The Lincoln I mentioned here..... You probably wouldn't notice from your driving experience that it is a hybrid. That is except being more silent than standard models. The 50 hp drop in performance probably wouldn't be too noticeable, except for lead foots.

Since Lincoln isn't charging anything extra for their hybrid, I think this is another selling point. That and that the price tag comes in within the reach of someone who has a good job. Even without the hybrid technology, the MKZ is a really good value for someone wanting a mid-sized luxury sedan. You could spend a lot more and not get as nice a ride.

The hybrid model (which is a free option) touting double gas mileage has to be a selling point. It's only coming in a couple hundred pounds heavier than the gas model. That's a good thing too.
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Old 29th December 2010, 03:32   #12
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It looks like a pretty inviting car. Ford (Lincoln) is still going strong despite not taking a government bailout and hopefully they'll keep competition going.

One thing that must be said when measuring fuel economy: Don't forget that when comparing US vs. European gallons, you must convert. They're not the same amont. Imperial gallons are significantly bigger than US gallons, and therefore you can drive further with an Imperial gallon than you can on a US gallon. Depending on your information source, you might be getting one or the other.

Don't get me wrong, I believe diesels can be quite good for efficiency, clean emmissions, and performance, as seen in a lot of small Volkswagons. In the US, selling diesel models is hard because diesel fuel costs more per unit, and therefore the difference in fuel economy has to be significant in favor of diesel in order to break even.

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Old 29th December 2010, 03:55   #13
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Ford (Lincoln) is still going strong despite not taking a government bailout
Ford didn't need a government bailout. Ford makes good cars. Go figure.

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therefore the difference in fuel economy has to be significant in favor of diesel in order to break even
That seems to be my take on this too. This luxury Lincoln eco-friendly machine gets combined high 30's mpg ratings without being a Prius (a gadgetized Geo-Metro hauling a piano).

I think Ford gets kudos here. It's a 200 pony luxury sedan that is gas stingy. Also, the "eco-friendly" option is FREE. You might want the 260hp V6 model. I think they are gonna sell the hell out of this hybrid.

My thing is, 40 mpg and you give up nothing. I remember the 1970's 50hp econoboxes and hated the fact that they even existed. They got pretty close to 40 mpg too. They also sucked.

Here, we have a new generation of car, that won't piss you off getting air-waked by a truck. I took a ride in one of these..... all I have to say is "sweet ride". This isn't the half horsepower SUV hybrid. It isn't the Geo with a piano in the back.

For our Euro friends, gas is a heck of a lot cheaper in the states. But then, we usually have a lot further to go. It's something that, without being in America, understanding the driving style... Frankly... your "Eurobox" would get ran the hell over. Do not try to merge a 1.4 L Citroen on the freeway. You'll die
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Old 2nd January 2011, 05:42   #14
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I get "air-waked" much worse with large vehicles than small. Priuses are small and heavy, therefore much less likely to be air-waked than a bigger vehicle. Today Renee and I made a 900 mile return trip from seeing family. We drove a pickup truck with a cap. Wind really does affect it a lot, whereas when we're in the Camry, I never notice anything.

Priuses aren't really all bad when it comes to performance: 0-60 in 9.8 seconds is pretty good for a small car actually. There are still many cars out there (hybrid and non) that are well over 10 seconds. They feel more roomy than they look too, and handling is surprisingly agile. Older Priuses did have issues with braking feeling kinda funny due to the recharging system (and they were slower and smaller), but that was all well-addressed 2 redesigns ago. It'll never claim to be a Lincoln, but it's still tops the market in what it is designed to do.

I hope this Lincoln does well though, because my comment was mostly for Ford (I don't see too many newer Lincolns on the road these days.). I have yet to ride in or even see a hybrid Lincoln. Sounds like quite a car though.

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Old 2nd January 2011, 09:00   #15
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0-60 in 9.8 seconds
If you wanted to get ran over. Your truck would blow it off the road.
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Old 2nd January 2011, 19:10   #16
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If I had gone with the 4-cyl 4-wheel-drive the acceleration would have been identical to the Prius, but I needed a stronger engine to tow firewood. The Prius is on par with a lot of '90s cars and SUVs when it comes to acceleration.

With the 6-cyl 4-wheel-drive (ext. cab with cap/topper, heavy bed mat, and a bunch of stuff in the bed) I get about 6.9-7.1 seconds with the truck’s 0-60 runs.

The last time I remember you getting a car (it's been a while, so you may have switched since then), it was a pretty nice '92 Lincoln Town Car (you mentioned a 5.0 engine but Wikipedia says newer 4.6 for 1992, Signature Series), which has a 210 hp V8 for that year, giving it a 0-60 rating of 10.2 seconds. Those Town Cars don't feel all that slow even when it takes that long to get to 60.

Here is a good place to look 0-60 and quarter mile times. I have cross-referenced this a few times for verification, and it looks to be pretty accurate, although trim models can change things a bit (longer cab or bed pickups can slow things, etc.).

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Old 2nd January 2011, 20:18   #17
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I think 10 seconds is completely gutless. Do not want. You could almost forgive it in the Lincoln though.
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Old 2nd January 2011, 20:55   #18
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It's just a simple matter of a very heavy car with an engine that needed a couple years worth of updates. Now there are 4 valves per cylinder, variable valve timing, aluminum vs. cast components, dual overhead camshafts, more gears in the tranny, and probably a load of other advancements that I'm missing that are common these days.

In a Lincoln, especially a Town Car, you don't likely want to get there fast though - you'd be too busy enjoying all the plush luxury features. Red light taking too long? one button reclines and another button switches songs or stations on a high quality sound system. Take your time driving if you have royal velvet or leather. I remember being in an old one where every seat had it's own ash tray and lighter. It's one TV short of being a plush living room. I wouldn't want it to get me to point B very quickly.

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Old 7th January 2011, 03:13   #19
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You can yard the brain box out of a police car. That's 20 horse. Replace the factory air cleaner, get a better exhaust. I helped my buddy build a dyno'd 290 horse 4.6L which still passed DEQ and passes just about everything else on the road. Including new valves and wearable parts.... about $3K.

Punches that little stang right up to 130. It's not a ten second car. It is a 12 second car. In the high 5's for 0-60. Not a race car, but it sure as hell is what I'd like to call "brisk".

Ford modulars kind of suck for torque. But if you're on a uphill grade on the freeway, they'll climb a tree at 100.
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Old 7th January 2011, 03:26   #20
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With that many mods and that little weight, you should be able to go faster yet, so long as you have the gearing for it.

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Old 7th January 2011, 03:37   #21
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It would go faster, but not with either one of us in it. You could probably go 160? a couple times. It isn't the motor. It's a mustang. The geometry of the car is for shit. It's RWD. The brakes suck. Plus, it's just not smart to go much faster than 130 without Z tires in anything.

Even at 130, you are gonna downshift to get down to 110 before you hit the brakes or you could wad it. If you panic stopped at 130, I think it would be really easy to find a ditch or a wall.

You can pretty much just bop along at 100 though. The mod was new heads, the EFI got yarded and replaced with a carb and electronic ignition..... new intake manifold. Some exhaust work.

Nothing too hairy.

A lot of times, if you are racing, it's the driver and not the car. I've beat guys that if I was driving their car, I would have smoked me like a short cigarette.

They wonder why in second gear at 9000 rpm, I blew past them in 4th
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Old 7th January 2011, 03:55   #22
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heh - I gave up excessive speed a little while ago (sadly not too long ago). I never got any speeding tickets for more than 15 over, though I may have deserved them a few times. I get V-rated tires for the car (Michelin Primacy MXV4), and the stock off-road tires on the truck probably shouldn't go over 90, although the truck is obviously capable of more (some kind of BF Goodrich "Rugged Trail" model).

edit - the truck tires are T-rated for speeds up to 118 mph, though I doubt I'll try traveling at that kind of speed in any pickup truck

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Old 7th January 2011, 04:13   #23
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It kind of wasn't the point to building this muskrat. Building it was fun. Even at reasonable speeds, and maybe especially a reasonable speeds, it's a kick in the head to drive.

Instead of winding the piss out a ricer to merge in the freeway. You just gently push the pedal.

My sister has a stock supercharged GTX Grand Prix. Maybe you just didn't notice how fast grandma was going...
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Old 7th January 2011, 04:16   #24
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I like that about comfortable cars - smooth performance. A lot of newer midsized cars are like that. 90 feels like 30.

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Old 7th January 2011, 04:21   #25
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That GXP is sweet. She got a really sweet deal when all the yuppies decided they needed to stick a battery up their ass. It gets about 17/24 mpg. The speedo goes to 160. I doubt she's ever taken it over 90. Power everything. Laser display on the windshield. Heated seats. Leather. This is an LE, where they added a supercharger to the 5.3L V8. Well into the high 300hp range.

At 90? Yeah, you'd never know. Probably at 125 actually.

I sure would have hated to be the original owner. When gas got really spendy, V8's got dumped in droves. That car lost about 70% of it's new value in 3 years.
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Old 7th January 2011, 13:33   #26
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heh - I gave up excessive speed a little while ago (sadly not too long ago). I never got any speeding tickets for more than 15 over, though I may have deserved them a few times. I get V-rated tires for the car (Michelin Primacy MXV4), and the stock off-road tires on the truck probably shouldn't go over 90, although the truck is obviously capable of more (some kind of BF Goodrich "Rugged Trail" model).

edit - the truck tires are T-rated for speeds up to 118 mph, though I doubt I'll try traveling at that kind of speed in any pickup truck
yeah, you'd be surprised how high the rated speed is for most off-road suited tires, my best friend used to own a toyota mini with 34 inch tires, those were rated for 80mph, i think the most we ever did was 110mph, his speedometer gave up and laid down, but that was only the one time.

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Old 7th January 2011, 22:33   #27
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A.) Older Toyota truck...

B.) 34 inch tires...

Quite often you see people having a lot of fun with both together, but I have trouble figuring out which is heavier between A and B. I wish I would have had the money to do that to my '91 when I had it, but I had fun in it anyway.

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Old 12th January 2011, 09:22   #28
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, i think the most we ever did was 110mph
Don't do it for very long. These ratings are a heat rating. You can exceed it for a little while, but you risk catastrophic failure. My guess would be in 5 or 10 miles. I have had tires unravel at unlimited speeds. If this happens to you, you are gonna be putting your boxers in the laundry. That's if someone isn't putting lilies on you.

"Z" tires are rated for travel at 149mph. "Y" is rated to 189. Don't go over 100mph for any prolonged period on consumer tires. You'll bite it. There is a a reason high performance tires are 4X spendy.
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Old 12th January 2011, 17:43   #29
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Does anyone have any experience with Smart Cars?
In America I'm not sure, they seem to "add" things that reduce the mileage..
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Old 12th January 2011, 20:07   #30
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Don't do it for very long. These ratings are a heat rating. You can exceed it for a little while, but you risk catastrophic failure. My guess would be in 5 or 10 miles. I have had tires unravel at unlimited speeds. If this happens to you, you are gonna be putting your boxers in the laundry. That's if someone isn't putting lilies on you.

"Z" tires are rated for travel at 149mph. "Y" is rated to 189. Don't go over 100mph for any prolonged period on consumer tires. You'll bite it. There is a a reason high performance tires are 4X spendy.
we only pulled that once, on the backroads between beaverton (aloha area) and hillsburrito.

and ted, considering this was one of those little tiny toyotas, i'm actually not sure which would have been heavier it had a rather large v4 that was bored out quite a bit though, so it may have been close.

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Old 12th January 2011, 23:43   #31
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Z isn't a specific limit like the other letters. Z is for 149+ and therefore doesn't really mean much, because you don't know how much past that you can really go; it varies by brand.

@ TDM - it likely would have been an i4 (inline rather than V) probably the 22R or 22R-E (latter of the two was fuel injected, former was carbureted). Both of those engines were crazy in terms of being able to take a continual severe beating and never die. Many people had theirs past the redline almost every day (and they didn't even have rev limiters) and the damn things still wouldn't die. About the only thing I see being replaced on those were oil pans due to people jumping and driving carelessly over boulders. They had superior gas mileage and performance compared to all other 4-cylinder pickups in their day.

On the topic of Smart Cars - there's a fellow teacher in our building that drives a "passion for two" occasionally; she claims that every tank is 40 mpg or more, mostly rural driving - long straight Iowa roads. I don't recommend them though - not enough car around you to absorb the shock of impact during a collision. Their unibodies are very strong, and they have all necessary airbags, seat-belt pretensioners and force limiters, but not enough ability to absorb shock for me to feel safe. In other words, the car survives very well; you don't. Look at the highest rated comment that I copied/pasted after the video.



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Old 13th January 2011, 00:32   #32
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About the only thing I see being replaced on those were oil pans due to people jumping and driving carelessly over boulders.
yeah i've seen people do that back in the day when we used to take that thing down to the river, of course the best spot had one hell of an entrance, all the cars and hatchbacks were always in a hurry to rush down it and bottom out, meanwhile the trucks are sitting patiently at the top as the knuckleheads trash their tin cans, good show to catch while you're puffing some green, then when they finally made it through the trucks would begin to slowly, smartly and safely lumber down.

this truck was quite a beast though, skid plates on the undercarriage, rigid type mudflaps (opposed to rubber "danglers"), it was someone's baby before it was my buddy's, poor sap couldn't afford to keep it.

as far as collisions go, i don't know shit about "smart" cars, but i do know that the only accident that behemoth was in was a drunk driver flying down the hill at a stop sign, bounced off it's tires, got hit by a second drunk, in the end?

two pieces of shit, totalled.
one tube style bumper, bought and replaced.
now that's what i call "smart"

back to RoH and the tire thing, i've thankfully not been in any situations quite that bad, however, i did at one point witness some retard stab a 44 inch off road tire with a pocketknife, air pressure shoots the knife back out at him nearly taking off his thumb and the poor unfortunate truck nearly did a backflip, i'm not quite sure if the tires on my buddy's rig were big enough for that much concern, but to say the least any size tires over 30 inches, i don't want to be around when they deflate.

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Old 13th January 2011, 02:31   #33
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Most 4x4 truck tires are 30+. Mine (still just dealer stock) are 31" I think, and you could go maybe up to about 33 without rubbing while steering and climbing obstacles off-road. Anything over 33 would require me to either add more lift or start cutting into the wheel wells or fender flares and/or mounting them further from the center of the truck. Or, you could just get giant tires and steer less sharp and climb less obstacles like those ridiculous huge-tire idiots you see bouncing over curbs at the mall. By the way, there's a very comprehensive forum for all this if you're ever interested in reading or possibly doing some good off-road mods to a Toyota. Also, remember, if you're off-roading/climbing, less pressure is better; that means more contact area between tire and terrain - much better grip, then air back up for the road - better gas mileage and less tire flex for safer, more stable road-speed steering. Most people who are serious off-roaders (slow climbers) will tell you the first thing to do to an off-road truck is remove the mud flaps - they just get in the way and/or cause more harm than good for climbing. I still have my stock ones on because I do a lot of very long fast (daily) gravel road travel, and they keep the gravel from chipping my paint and other cars' windshields. They come on and off with quick snaps though when I need to get rid of them for more rugged stuff like when I'm getting hard-to-reach firewood trees in the woods.

One thing is certain though, Toyota trucks are not Lincolns. My '91 had a bench seat - if you wanna move forward or back, your passenger had to also. There was no recline option. One angle fits all; the only thing you could do was disengage it forward to get behind for tools or whatever else you had hiding back there. My '91 didn't even have power steering, no automatic tranny, manual windows, locks, mirrors, etc. All function, no luxury, but it at least didn't give me any aches or pains. Navigation system was a paper map that you used a few times to wipe the dipstick when checking oil. Radio had a cassette player and I thought that was livin' large. Luckily the heater and air conditioner were the same as those found in minivans, so, that tiny cab would bake or freeze in seconds. Rough suspension, no sound deadening, touchy clutch and gas pedal, no tachometer.

I think one of those for the nights out with the guys and one of these nice plush Lincolns for nights out with the gals would make a nice combo.

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Old 13th January 2011, 07:11   #34
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@ Ted's first paragraph:

nice, i never would have guessed you're that knowledgeable about off roading, i admit though, with rigid steel mud flaps you are sort of a bit of a pavement pounder regardless, even being a mini it was at times hard to find trails that the rig fit.

as for the climbing bit, yeah i've known that for a bit, they do the same thing driving on ice in especially cold places too if i recall, one thing i've never been sure of though is how to know what the minimal (to not damage in other words) pressure a particular tire will safely take is.

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Old 14th January 2011, 02:17   #35
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Well, I've been told about 18 with regular wheels, but you might get away with less. You're not in as much danger of damaging the tire as you are of breaking the bead seal and getting a non-damage flat - that means the tire isn't fully attached to the rim anymore, and that's buzzkill.

That said, you could order some rather expensive bead-lock wheels/rims, which have a circle of bolts on the inside and outside that hold the tire onto the rim even at single digit pressure (7-17 psi) without the risk of the tire coming loose from the rim. Many rims have fake-beadlock spots for looks, but the real thing makes a big difference. Again, very expensive, but worth it for some. The tire will really hug and wrap around each object it touches for much better grip if you have it at a low-pressure setup.

If you take things that far, airing up with a small portable compressor (some can fit under the hood) when you're done would be mandatory before you'd be safe on the road again.

I have a few friends who are really hardcore into the rock-climbing and swamp scene, so I learn from them. Personally, I only really need just enough to get firewood, camp, do a little beach partying, and trail-ride in national parks and other private sight-seeing areas. Oh, and it's good to have something that gets me a common commute during Iowa blizzards when others are blocked in. When I first bought this truck I thought about modding the hell out of it, but really, it's done fine so far without all of that; just keeping what the factory off-road kit includes. If I really need to climb over a pile of huge boulders, I'll get a good pair of boots or a small 4x4 ATV.

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