Old 20th March 2006, 08:57   #41
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well, i think i meant it in a secondary, looser sense - i.e bizarre, dreamlike. i mean this thread started out with an argument re cancer vaccines, then all of a sudden kev is waxing lyrical about "fierce warriors" and "giant labradors" - i dont think ive seen him get quite so poetic before. i found it strangely refreshing.

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Old 20th March 2006, 10:25   #42
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Rationality occasionally escapes me with a short case of Bud.

Waxing poetic and having pride in being a man, and a man that is strong in his traditions, and recognising the strength of other men who follow similar traditions, is possibly politically incorrect.

I can come off as being an adding machine, but truly I am a man of great love and passion.

That isn't always revealed. My true feelings are absolute gentleness. A soldier that would kill you, but a man that would rather not.

Conduct that will lead you to peace, the love of your family, the love of your giant dog, and a good life having security in that is my goal.

I haven't found the right answer, but I really know what doesn't work.

Perhaps I will wax poetic again, but pride and knowledge of the wisdom of thousand of yeara of humans who brought us here?. It's largely ignored for current philosophy that is a complete failure.

Consider your steps, be a strong, reliable man. It's not a crime. It is the nature of the men, that brought you here. Ignoring their counsel is ignoring your own heritage.

We knew they screwed up. Did we make it better?. No, we use it as an excuse to cover our own misdeeds.

Poetic waxed enough?.
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Old 20th March 2006, 10:32   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by rockouthippie
I'm just pointing out that zoot and the traditions of scots aren't as liberal as he would say and that his own perceptions in rhetoric wouldn't match his actual belief.

I am sure that when zoot is a father, that like most scots, will be a redneck of unprecedented proportions.

Paternal, strict and immutable. The scottish men in my country make me look like a liberal.
I think that the concept of liberalism you're using is pretty much irrelevant on this side of the pond. What scots are traditionally known for politically is a strong support of socialism, largely because of the high proportion of working class families (like my family, going back tens of generations on my father's side, and I'm not sure how far on my mother's).

There's nothing (or at least, there should be nothing) wrong about "being a man". I don't think, however, that my political views conflict with any of this stuff, though. I am, personally, a proponent of permissive legislation. Let the people decide where it affects no-one else. To be truly strong, one needs an atmosphere such as this.

I rarely show the full extent of my political beliefs online, in any case (I tend to be right-leaning and extremely libertarian, for what it's worth), I'm playing devil's advocate more often than people realise.

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Old 20th March 2006, 10:37   #44
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Originally posted by zootm
I'm playing devil's advocate more often than people realise.
That is my entire point. Get real. Be the very strong, kind, loving scotsman that you are, and offer no apology or compromise for it.

You have a line of dirt to tell you you're wrong. Don't listen.

Meet the world with your sabre, your kilt, your pipe, and your giant dog. Play the tune of freedom, love and justice.

Last edited by rockouthippie; 20th March 2006 at 11:00.
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Old 20th March 2006, 10:43   #45
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I treat this all as a learning experience. When I don't understand a viewpoint, it's useful to argue it out to understand the other's point.

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Old 20th March 2006, 20:18   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by rockouthippie
I want cold, hard practical numbers. Whatever does the most good within the resources available is what we should do. No catechism, just cold hard facts.
How, exactly?

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Originally posted by rockouthippie
I am leery of vaccines, because many drugs that we use have later proven dangerous. The pill gives women cancer. ***** nearly killed my friend and reduced his lifespan etc.
I don't disagree on most vaccines — and I believe we are generally overmedicated as a society.

The pill does not, per se, "give women cancer", however. Yes, there is a slight increased risk of breast cancer according to an extensive study — though most other studies have proved inconclusive. The pill actually protects you quite a bit from other forms of cancer.

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Originally posted by rockouthippie
Frankly, I think that schools are teaching exactly that. The emphasis is on preventing VD not by abstaining from sex, but from employing devices and drugs to make a very risky behavior less risky. The problem is, as our illegitimacy and disease rates show, that this is a false security.
Schools are not going to make the difference in people's abstinence. I mean, they barely make a difference in people's pronunciation of English.

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Old 20th March 2006, 21:53   #47
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Schools are not going to make the difference in people's abstinence. I mean, they barely make a difference in people's pronunciation of English.
Perhaps because they teach exactly the opposite of what is a reasonable opinion about our sexual lives.

"Here's a rubber, go fer it". doesn't work. As our disease and illegitimacy rates fully demonstrate.

My dads advise: "Well son, keep your pecker in your pocket" is quaint, but maybe better advise.
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Old 20th March 2006, 22:45   #48
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Perhaps because they teach exactly the opposite of what is a reasonable opinion about our sexual lives.
Is it? They teach the facts, and how to be safer. Allowing people to take responsibility for their own actions.

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"Here's a rubber, go fer it". doesn't work. As our disease and illegitimacy rates fully demonstrate.
I'm not convinced there are any numbers backing that one up, sorry. But you're missing the point. The emphasis isn't "here's a rubber, go for it". It's "if you do choose to have sex, this will make it safer".

As opposed to abstinence-only education, where a "see no evil hear no evil, do no evil" approach. As with "just don't do it" drugs education, this patronises the child while missing out information which could be crucial for them. Kids are going to have sex. A proper sex education program (and I have no idea what the ones in the US are like, sorry) teaches about responsibility and the facts and reality around it. To gloss over the subject is an insult to the student's intelligence and personal responsibility.

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Originally posted by rockouthippie
My dads advise: "Well son, keep your pecker in your pocket" is quaint, but maybe better advise.
There's no reason that that advice can't be backed with a good knowledge of the facts of the matter. But removing education in contraceptives and so on benefits no-one.

As I say, I might be out of touch with your educational system, but here it was not an encouragement at all. Just education in the facts needed to make responsible, adult decisions.

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Old 20th March 2006, 23:56   #49
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I might be out of touch with your educational system, but here it was not an encouragement at all. Just education in the facts needed to make responsible, adult decisions.
This is not my impression, being the father of someone your age. If I found responsibility in the schools, I wouldn't gripe.

The current wisdom is that we can't guide our children to reasonable behavior, so lets let them play russian roulette with a condom.

I assure you that a strong, consistant loving father is able to keep their children out of harms way.

I think you are an honorable young man, and perhaps you find the influence of your dad in ways you don't fully understand.

Have I won the popularity contest in my house?. Guess?. But no one has come to harm on my watch. I call that a win.





Things you will understand when you are a father yourself. Or not, but you and your children will pay dearly for your lack of dilligence.

Last edited by rockouthippie; 21st March 2006 at 00:16.
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Old 21st March 2006, 00:25   #50
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Well, I dunno. There just seems to be a thin line between giving people the facts, and the "free reign" thing you worry about. I do understand your concerns (obviously not as well as I would if I were a father, but I can see your points), but I think the only responsible approach has to include education about contraception. Yes, emphasise abstinence as a real alternative &mdash; something that abstinence-only education doesn't really do, since it ends up being preachy and unrealistic &mdash; but don't leave angles so crucial as contraception uncovered.

You can guide a child to responsible behaviour, as a parent. But not everyone does. And not every child can be guided as well as others. At least give them knowledge, it's the most important thing in the world.

As I say, though, I had a very good experience with responsible sex ed here. It may not be the case over there (especially since in the US it's a polarised debate, whereas here it's treated much more as just "what happens").

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Old 21st March 2006, 06:06   #51
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What education does wearing a condom require?. It was not mentioned in my health classes, but I was always aware of the existence and use of these devices.

This is being offered as the "first choice", rather than as an alternative. Since we have demonstrated by illegitimate children and disease that this is not a good option, I think this ideologies ranking should be relegated as what not to teach.

And I've had to fight to maintain my politically incorrect posture on this matter.

With love and proper diligence, sex is a truly wonderful thing. Outside of this, it becomes tawdry and cheap. Sharing a rich, loving sexual life with a woman is one of the greatest experiences that we have. Or we can just make it cheap and bounce bimbos off the bedpost.

When you awake after your "one night stand" and feel empty, like you shared nothing special, you'll know what I mean.

Yes ladies, even we brutes are capable of honest feelings , as much as it's not considered too cool for us to show them.

When I've shown my feelings to women, I've often had it turned against me as a weapon.

Resisting this and trying to remain an open, loving and kind man demonstrates the meaning of bravery.

A trained, professional soldier, that has had his heart broke. I'd rather get shot.

Last edited by rockouthippie; 21st March 2006 at 06:36.
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Old 21st March 2006, 11:07   #52
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I've never had sex with someone I didn't believe I was in love with. Just FYI.

Quote:
Originally posted by rockouthippie
What education does wearing a condom require?. It was not mentioned in my health classes, but I was always aware of the existence and use of these devices.
There's a few common errors (especially not nipping the head), and reducing the "taboo factor" of such things increases the incidence of usage. Research into abstinence-only education have shown that it not only reduces use of contraceptives, it does nothing to decrease rates of people having sex. In fact, research has shown that abstinence-only sexual education increases rates of pregnancy.

This seems to me to be the natural consequence of telling people what to do, rather than giving them a choice &mdash; they won't listen to you.

The Emerging Answers report (which reviews 250 different studies of sexual education programs) is apparently a good report on the matter, for the US.

Quote:
Originally posted by rockouthippie
And I've had to fight to maintain my politically incorrect posture on this matter.
I don't think you're particularly politically-incorrect. I can see the rational reasons for your view, otherwise I'd've stopped replying.

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Old 21st March 2006, 12:16   #53
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In fact, research has shown that abstinence-only sexual education increases rates of pregnancy.
And what studies would show you this when we have illegitimacy in record numbers. Some urban areas have 90% of kids wondering "whos your daddy?".

Perhaps Scotland is different.

I have accounting experience, and when the "balance sheet" doesn't add at the bottom, I question the numbers that are on top.

Show me numbers which show our current method of sexual education isn't a damned blight, with disease, fatherless children and hurt.

Maybe you don't understand some things. For one women having abortions, no big deal right?. No, it cuts their guts out, I have yet to meet an exception. This isn't my feeling, it's theirs, and their remorse is not something I want to experience.

You are giving a "bean counter" numbers that don't add.

Last edited by rockouthippie; 21st March 2006 at 12:37.
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Old 21st March 2006, 12:33   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by rockouthippie
Show me numbers which show our current method of sexual education isn't a damned blight, with disease, fatherless children and hurt.
The research project I linked to? From a conservative group? Here's another one if you want.

Why would an abstinence-only scheme reduce teen sex anyway? Just telling people what to do doesn't work; we know this!

The pro-abstinence-only response paper to the linked one was found to contain 10 studies (as opposed to the 250 in the original study), of which 9 were found to be scientifically worthless.

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Old 21st March 2006, 12:47   #55
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You seem to be a young man that possibly finds your own fathers counsel valuable. You have said that your own conduct is not promiscuous, so evidently someone has educated you in common wisdom.

It's fun to be a liberal, until you have to stand up and be a man and take the consequence of of your misdeeds. Oh, I forgot, they teach you that you don't have any responsibility either... I guess cleaning up the mess gets to be my job.

Maybe when I work in the soup kitchens and missions and look at fatherless, hungry children, it's somehow my archain attitude that created their insufferable existence.

It brings tears that some of these children aren't as well tended as my dog.

Numbers again zoot?.
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Old 21st March 2006, 13:15   #56
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Originally posted by rockouthippie
You seem to be a young man that possibly finds your own fathers counsel valuable.
I'm afraid that's pretty far from true.

I'm a lot more responsible than my father, though.

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You have said that your own conduct is not promiscuous, so evidently someone has educated you in common wisdom.
Yes. Also, morality comes naturally to most of us. It's its application that's difficult.

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Originally posted by rockouthippie
It's fun to be a liberal, until you have to stand up and be a man and take the consequence of of your misdeeds. Oh, I forgot, they teach you that you don't have any responsibility either... I guess cleaning up the mess gets to be my job.
As I've said before, the whole "liberal" thing doesn't really hold over here, we have a different political landscape. I'm really not sure what this "lack of responsibility" thing you keep talking about is. I am responsible for my actions.

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Maybe when I work in the soup kitchens and missions and look at fatherless, hungry children, it's somehow my archain attitude that created their insufferable existence.
Abstinence-only education would not affect them. It will probably, in fact, make the problem worse.

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Numbers again zoot?.
You appear to have a slight blind spot for the links to respected scientific research I've been posting.

I'd be interested to see some of your numbers though.

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Old 21st March 2006, 13:31   #57
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IYes. Also, morality comes naturally to most of us. It's its application that's difficult.
I think it is a lack of education in reason that allows us to harm each other in ways we don't want to take responsibility for.

Maybe this is a conversation I had with my long deceased father. He said, that if I cared about the young women that I was dating, that I should refrain from having sex with them. The reason is that it might be in various ways something that could be harmful to them.

You do not harm people you care about.

Is this simple philosophy teachable or in any way unreasoned?.

And I'll bet a buck you didn't hear that simple wisdom in school.
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Old 21st March 2006, 13:38   #58
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I think there's varying levels of that. I think there's a lack of respect, rather than just responsibility, a lot of the time these days. I'm really not sure what education can do to help it, though. You can't teach someone who is unwilling to learn.

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Old 21st March 2006, 14:03   #59
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OK, so let's just not bother to mention that it's possible, within your duty as a man, and acceptable to conduct yourself with dignity.

The measure of a man is his kindness, not his might. But both are trained and considered like forging a sword.

Educating a man to be a just, loving, responsible man is not hard or complicated. Keeping him that way with people that don't want to live righteously is hard.

We need to give up this bane and be men. Men that our proud in our heritage.

---wax poetic---

When I dab the soapy stuff on my face, I want to see the completely honorable man that I see, who harmed no one due to lust or greed, and stood as a champion his own honor.

Do I see that guy in the mirror?. I try really hard.

Chivalry and honor are quite teachable. If you teach a man dignity and self respect, then we have won the battle.

Or do you think that "dogs humping in the yard" is our amount of dignity?.

If you tell me that basic morals, self respect and common decency can't be taught, then I'm very mistaken.

GOD!. I am such a freaking boy scout I even annoy myself. But I've tried the other way, briefly, it just doesn't work.
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Old 21st March 2006, 14:09   #60
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That's the thing, though. One cannot teach dignity in school. Not fully. Parents need to take responsibility, but the problem is that the ones who ignore rules and don't, are the ones producing children in their own image.

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Old 21st March 2006, 14:33   #61
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No, but we as men can teach it to each other. The idea that we stand for decency, love and peace is not unique, but it seems to get hammered by some imagined reality.

Look at that guy in the mirror, if he is a man that is to be trusted, selfless with his family, paternally patient, and vicious as a rottweiler in protecting the innocent, thats the dude you want to be looking at.

This man that you are looking at doesn't have unwanted children and doesn't spread VD.

Possibly just because it's beneath his dignity. If he was taught to have any.
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Old 21st March 2006, 18:26   #62
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I believe that society as a whole is utterly incapable of instilling morals in children; the only people capable of doing that are parents (possibly with assisstance of personal interested parties).

My morals are not my parent's morals. But I'm probably annoyingly "moralistic" to almost anyone on these forums, even you, rockouthippie. I don't drink, smoke, or "do drugs". My main vice is caffeine, and I drink less than a cup of coffee's worth a day. I use my damn turn signal, I'm honest, I am literally an Eagle Scout. (But I do curse... )

This doesn't come from society. Many of the things society considers moral; I don't, and vice-versa. It doesn't even directly come from my parents. Partially, I'm sure, it's me, whatever I am (whether a genetic code or a spirit), but partially it is the way I was raised, but not in a moralistic sense. I believe that humans are inherantly moral, given the chance to freely choose. However, we're also inherantly rebellious; if you try to force us down a certain path, even the path we would've chosen, we will seek another.

I believe this is basically what zootm is saying; that you can't teach just abstinance, because it's not going to work, simply because humans value choice so highly.

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