Old 5th June 2009, 21:25   #1
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Fuck you, ACLU

Find something better to do than file lawsuits against people for expressing their RIGHT (and to them, god given) to practice religion. If you don't like god, just ignore it. I have no problem saying "One nation under god", or bowing my head at the dinner table. It's not like it hurts you. Respect other people's beliefs you fucking cock sucking tards.

I just can't understand why they are so hung up on this, it just pisses me off to no end to hear "The ACLU has filed a lawsuit against so and so for having the ten commandments on the wall in some school". How hard is it to NOT READ THEM? Besides most of them are pretty good rules to live by even if you're not religious.

I'd like to get some feedback from people on both sides.

p.s. I am an atheist, just so we're clear.
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Old 5th June 2009, 21:48   #2
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I would not go as far as you and call myself an atheist. I would say I am much more agnostic leaning more towards atheism. Went to catholic schools all my life, raised in the catholic church ... you get the idea.

But yeah, I totally agree with you. It's called freedom, start limiting what people can believe in, read, and write and you slowly take away all freedom. If you don't agree with it, then carry on and ignore it; don't launch your own personal vendetta against it.
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Old 5th June 2009, 21:49   #3
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a.) people make lawsuits for the money, thats why most of them are ridiculous while the serious ones get delayed

b.) sensitive conformist bitches (am i using the right expression?) who cant live with the fact that some people believe in god and the bible, just cant shut up... you know those folks, who bitch about any shit they dont like that interferes with their perception of life, like.. "i hate the bible so it should be banned"... you get the point.

c.) i dont believe in god, nor the big bang theory, i couldn't care less how life began, all i know is that i came from my parents making love (if you can call it that) and that there is life after death, that covers me.

d.) am i talking shit again?
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Old 5th June 2009, 22:40   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by fc*uk
I would not go as far as you and call myself an atheist. I would say I am much more agnostic leaning more towards atheism. Went to catholic schools all my life, raised in the catholic church ... you get the idea.

But yeah, I totally agree with you. It's called freedom, start limiting what people can believe in, read, and write and you slowly take away all freedom. If you don't agree with it, then carry on and ignore it; don't launch your own personal vendetta against it.
Exactly my point. I don't like smelly old people. But you don't see me filing lawsuits against them just so I don't have to smell them. I just ignore them and go on my way.
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Old 5th June 2009, 23:41   #5
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Tolerance is good only when it does not apply to these people.

I am so important I feel the need to let it be known like a liberal discovering the internets for the first time. Uh hur hur hur. I also wash myself with a rag on a stick.
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Old 6th June 2009, 00:19   #6
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I am prejudiced against prejudice
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Old 6th June 2009, 00:26   #7
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Kingo': b). Yeah, unfortunately that is how things seem to work, especially in the US. Ignorance spawns hatred. "I don't understand this, therefore I don't like this; I hate this and it must be banned". Great ideology.

c). I did not believe in big bang either .... until I read numerous books on the topic. Keep in mind I am a chemist with a small inkling of an idea of how things actually work on truly a molecular level (I've gotten years of research in quantum mechanics under my belt). Anyway, after reading enough stuff of the subject, it is very plausible.

d). Do you ever do anything else??? But, no you are not.

I think we should all be prejudiced against prejudice, but sadly I don't think there would be many of us left if that were the case
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Old 6th June 2009, 00:59   #8
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to continue with my righteous post there, this can go well:

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Old 6th June 2009, 02:00   #9
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Re: Fuck you, ACLU

Quote:
Originally posted by ryan
Find something better to do than file lawsuits against people for expressing their RIGHT (and to them, god given) to practice religion.
Nononono, you don't get it...

They file lawsuits against people expressing their right to practice Christianity...

You can put a Menorah by your window but for fuck's sake, don't put a Nativity Scene in your front yard...They don't even like it when stores display Christmas trees or even play Christmas music over the intercom...Granted the latter is annoying as it is during the months of November-December, if it's associated with Christmas, you can't have it in public, whether it's religious symbolism or non-religious corporatism...

Why doesn't the ACLU go after other religions, like Judaism and Islam? Because Christianity is the white man's religion, and God forbid that the white man has it's way after years of majority domination in America...

I realize not every Christian is a white person; Look at a Fili-Am Catholic like me...But does the ACLU make any sense itself? Because that's exactly what it's agenda points to...

I thought that America was the land of equality, not special treatment..."Civil liberties", my ass; I'm a racial minority and I see the ACLU as a pile of horseshit...

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Old 6th June 2009, 02:21   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by ryan
p.s. I am an atheist, just so we're clear.
Hey I'm an athiest too! ... I swear to God I am!!
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Old 6th June 2009, 02:26   #11
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Re: Re: Fuck you, ACLU

Quote:
Originally posted by MidnightViper88
Nononono, you don't get it...

They file lawsuits against people expressing their right to practice Christianity...

You can put a Menorah by your window but for fuck's sake, don't put a Nativity Scene in your front yard...They don't even like it when stores display Christmas trees or even play Christmas music over the intercom...Granted the latter is annoying as it is during the months of November-December, if it's associated with Christmas, you can't have it in public, whether it's religious symbolism or non-religious corporatism...

Why doesn't the ACLU go after other religions, like Judaism and Islam? Because Christianity is the white man's religion, and God forbid that the white man has it's way after years of majority domination in America...

I realize not every Christian is a white person; Look at a Fili-Am Catholic like me...But does the ACLU make any sense itself? Because that's exactly what it's agenda points to...

I thought that America was the land of equality, not special treatment..."Civil liberties", my ass; I'm a racial minority and I see the ACLU as a pile of horseshit...
I'm not sure it's a total race thing, but to some maybe.
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Old 6th June 2009, 04:06   #12
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I haven't read every post, but my only comment is that in private space, you can do anything you want; anything public though, get your shitty ass religion out of it. Take your shitty commandments out of my public courthouses, get your damn religious shit off my money, keep your religious shit out of my government sponsored pledges and things. Get your stupid manger scenes out of my government buildings, and stop trying to impose your chirstian bullshit as being sponsored by my government.

I agree entirely with your personal freedoms, I'm not trying to force my atheism on you, but keep your superstitions as far away from me and my government as possible. If you want a religious state, go to medieval Europe, oh yah they were called the dark ages weren't they? Or hey, you could always head to saudia arabia and start practicing Islam, that seems to be a great example of a perfect religious state...

The reason the ACLU goes after christianity, is because the majority of old white politicians are christian, and they just can't seem to understand this concept of seperation of church and state. I agree entirely with stopping every attempt to force god into government, because that is one of the very few situations where the slippery slope argument holds. It's happened before, and if we stop watching those religious nut cases for a second, we are going to be declaring ourselves a christian nation, which we most certainly never were, and hopefully never will be if I have anything to say about it.
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Old 6th June 2009, 04:42   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by S-uper_T-oast
I agree entirely with your personal freedoms, I'm not trying to force my atheism on you, but keep your superstitions as far away from me and my government as possible. If you want a religious state, go to medieval Europe, oh yah they were called the dark ages weren't they? Or hey, you could always head to saudia arabia and start practicing Islam, that seems to be a great example of a perfect religious state...
You don't realize the amount of irony you doused on yourself with this paragraph, don't you?

The entire thing behind the "Separation of Church and State" mantra is that there can't be a state-sponsored religion, which there isn't in America; One of the defining things which separated Colonial America from Imperial Britain was that America wanted a freedom of religion while Britain imposed the Church of England on the colonies which was the state...

I don't care how many times you cite religions symbolism on government property, because there are two things you still cannot deny irregardless...

1. You cannot deny that despite a secular government many of America's principles were inspired by religion...That is our history and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it; America does not take it's religious influences and make it a case for the Crusades Part Deux, while at the same time, it respects it's citizen's differences in religious and non-religious practice...

2. You cannot deny that the government does not sanction a state-sponsored religion...As stated before, before democratic times, the Church of England was the state of Great Britain; All government decisions were based on what the church said, and that included a mandate that all British citizens be practicing Protestants...Does the American government make you practice Christianity? No. Does the American government ban practice of other religions like Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism? No. Are irreligious people persecuted by the state? No.

You also can not say America forces Christianity down it's citizens throats when so many in the American government have absolutely no respect for Christianity while ignoring any equally unfair prejudice against other religions...It's not even about "separation of church and state", it's just irrational hate against Christianity just because it's Christianity...

States like Saudi Arabia and Iran make no excuse that their government influences come from the religion of Islam, though at the same time, much different from America's government, Islam is the state-sponsored religion, sanctioned within all laws of government, and mandated to be practiced by all of it's citizens...The President of the United States does not answer to the Pope, while the President of Iran answers to the Ayatollah...Try being an open-practicing Jew in Iran and see how far that gets you...

You are absolutely right: Go move to Saudi Arabia for a summer, and then see how desperate you are to crawl back to a free-religion America...

There are 233 years to America's existence come July as an independent state, and there isn't one year to it's record where it's even remotely went to an entirely Christian-dominated government...It's not about the style, it's about the substance...

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Old 6th June 2009, 05:37   #14
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Old 6th June 2009, 09:41   #15
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The way that I understand it is that people feel that those kind of institutions should have nothing to do with the idea of a big floaty man in the sky.

Christianity has a history of being very much intrusive and tramping on grounds it shouldn't -- So the unfortunate repercussions are that people react very strongly with the intent to nip that shit in the bud before it gets out of hand.

Many Christians are absolutely lovely people, especially those who take their religion with a grain of salt (As I think all religious people should.) Unfortunately, the shitty ones are the loudest. Just as in a retail job, the only customers you remember are the ones who give you hell, the same is true for everyday life. I remember each and every customer that gave me crap over something stupid, I remember the occasional very nice person standing out, but all those regular instances are long forgotten and glossed over.

Myself, I don't have a problem with respecting others' beliefs, more than once I have said grace for a family I was visiting, or have attended church with friends of the family on occasions that were important to them.

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Old 6th June 2009, 12:25   #16
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toast, you sound exactly like my late father... he used to mention that saudi shit when i stole stuff he told me that there you would get your hands chopped off.

please dont mix culture with religion, its two different things, i think nobody tries to force religion on people, its the fact that there are people who take offence with you either being a jew, christian, athiest, budhist... you name it... ok... i guess you can call it racism then

racism to me is fear of something different, seeing a black man and calling him the N word is not racism, condoning black people\certain religious people because they are different than you, thats racism.

now i admit, i hate religious people myself, but not because they believe in a certain god, i couldn't care less of what god you believe in, here in israel we are divided into 2 groups:

a.) "hilonim" - not exactly pronounced like that, but close - its the people who don't practice any traditions that the other side has, you can say those people are neutral, each person in that group can believe in a god, but leave it at that

b.) "datiim" - same - religious people that live and breath knowing that god will bring them salvation and pray for god on every single fucking thing, not only that, but their nazi-like behaviour isn't any better, they are brainwashed that any person that isn't them is the devil, "dont speak to them, dont help them, they bring nothing but trouble" ... ... they are good people, but they just need a change of mind and fast.
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Old 6th June 2009, 13:11   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by S-uper_T-oast
I haven't read every post, but my only comment is that in private space, you can do anything you want; anything public though, get your shitty ass religion out of it. Take your shitty commandments out of my public courthouses, get your damn religious shit off my money, keep your religious shit out of my government sponsored pledges and things. Get your stupid manger scenes out of my government buildings, and stop trying to impose your chirstian bullshit as being sponsored by my government.

I agree entirely with your personal freedoms, I'm not trying to force my atheism on you, but keep your superstitions as far away from me and my government as possible. If you want a religious state, go to medieval Europe, oh yah they were called the dark ages weren't they? Or hey, you could always head to saudia arabia and start practicing Islam, that seems to be a great example of a perfect religious state...

The reason the ACLU goes after christianity, is because the majority of old white politicians are christian, and they just can't seem to understand this concept of seperation of church and state. I agree entirely with stopping every attempt to force god into government, because that is one of the very few situations where the slippery slope argument holds. It's happened before, and if we stop watching those religious nut cases for a second, we are going to be declaring ourselves a christian nation, which we most certainly never were, and hopefully never will be if I have anything to say about it.
YEP! I have to agree with you. And KOM...I wouldn't call any black person the N word because it is racist. I don't want to be called a WOP, Limey, Greaseball, any of it and I don't want to call someone by what their background is..I have a better repertoire of rude!
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Old 6th June 2009, 13:42   #18
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I have yet to see the point of this argument, just let people get on with their little lives as they see fit. It has no bearing, benefit or disadvantage to you whatsoever. If I worried about such trivial matters, as well as work and REAL concerns, I'd worry all fucking day.

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Old 6th June 2009, 13:57   #19
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^Freedom to not worship is not trivial to me, cooky.
And I believe in God. But my idea of God is not everyone's idea of God, nor should it be.
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Old 6th June 2009, 15:00   #20
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"The ACLU has filed a lawsuit against so and so for having the ten commandments on the wall in some school". How hard is it to NOT READ THEM?

The simple point is that there will be no establishment of a state religion. Putting one religion's doctrine up in public over any of the dozen of other religions practiced by people in their churches, temples, living rooms, etc... is showing prejudice in favor of that particular religion and a defacto sanctioning of that religion over all others. Our constitution expressly forbids this. Thank you ACLU for protecting our constitution.

Why doesn't the ACLU go after other religions, like Judaism and Islam? Because Christianity is the white man's religion, and God forbid that the white man has it's way after years of majority domination in America...

When a Menorah or a star of David or a passage from the Koran are put up in a public school classroom or the lobby of a civic building, they will. I guarantee it.

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Old 6th June 2009, 17:10   #21
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Old 6th June 2009, 17:38   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by watadoo
The simple point is that there will be no establishment of a state religion. Putting one religion's doctrine up in public over any of the dozen of other religions practiced by people in their churches, temples, living rooms, etc... is showing prejudice in favor of that particular religion and a defacto sanctioning of that religion over all others.
If the suppression of religion in schools wasn't to promote the doctrine of hedonists, communists and atheists, it would be acceptable.

There is a state religion and the ACLU are it's priests. I'm sure if someone put up a sign saying "There is no God" the ACLU would be defending it as free speech. "Jesus Loves You" would get a lawsuit.
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Old 6th June 2009, 17:47   #23
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Originally posted by rockouthippie
If the suppression of religion in schools wasn't to promote the doctrine of hedonists, communists and atheists, it would be acceptable.
No one in our school was ever told 'There is no God.'
No one in our school was ever told 'You are not allowed to pray.'
I have never heard of the above two incidences happening to someone in a first-world country in recent times.

They are taught about all sorts of different religions and left to make their own choices, which is how it should be. No one is stopping them from praying, it's just not a mandated thing anymore.

If that's the "Doctrine" of atheists, hedonists, and communists, 'Learn about everything and believe what you want, pray to whomever you choose if you choose to, but don't make anyone else do the same' Then I'm all for that doctrine.

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Old 6th June 2009, 18:13   #24
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You are from Canada.

Quote:
'Learn about everything and believe what you want, pray to whomever you choose if you choose to, but don't make anyone else do the same'
In the US, it's closer to "All religion is evil", at least from the vantage point of our liberals and the ACLU.

Thou shalt have no Gods before atheistic hedonism. The point is not to separate church from state, the point is to bash religion.

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Old 6th June 2009, 19:43   #25
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^ I didn't bash religion. I didn't bash God(as one may know it to be). But I don't believe The Ten Commandments should be in the school hallway, and that any form of God in public / government places should exist nor school prayer. I'm a hippie; send me to hell.
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Old 6th June 2009, 19:52   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by S-uper_T-oast
I haven't read every post, but my only comment is that in private space, you can do anything you want; anything public though, get your shitty ass religion out of it. Take your shitty commandments out of my public courthouses, get your damn religious shit off my money, keep your religious shit out of my government sponsored pledges and things. Get your stupid manger scenes out of my government buildings, and stop trying to impose your chirstian bullshit as being sponsored by my government.

I agree entirely with your personal freedoms, I'm not trying to force my atheism on you, but keep your superstitions as far away from me and my government as possible. If you want a religious state, go to medieval Europe, oh yah they were called the dark ages weren't they? Or hey, you could always head to saudia arabia and start practicing Islam, that seems to be a great example of a perfect religious state...

The reason the ACLU goes after christianity, is because the majority of old white politicians are christian, and they just can't seem to understand this concept of seperation of church and state. I agree entirely with stopping every attempt to force god into government, because that is one of the very few situations where the slippery slope argument holds. It's happened before, and if we stop watching those religious nut cases for a second, we are going to be declaring ourselves a christian nation, which we most certainly never were, and hopefully never will be if I have anything to say about it.
Oh, you said the magic word. The truth of the matter is there is no such thing as "separation of church and state". You find it in the constitution and I'll suck your dick.

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Old 6th June 2009, 20:12   #27
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Linked to that noted commie hippie, Thomas Jefferson:
From wikipedia:
"Separation of church and state is a political and legal doctrine that government and religious institutions are to be kept separate and independent from each other.[1] The term most often refers to the combination of two principles: secularity of government and freedom of religious exercise.[2]

The phrase separation of church and state is generally traced to the letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 to the Danbury Baptists, in which he referred to the First Amendment to the United States Constitution as creating a "wall of separation" between church and state. [3] The phrase was then quoted by the United States Supreme Court first in 1878,[4] and then in a series of cases starting in 1948.[5] This led to increased popular and political discussion of the concept.

The concept has since been adopted in a number of countries, to varying degrees depending on the applicable legal structures and prevalent views toward the proper role of religion in society. A similar principle of laïcité has been applied in France and Turkey, while some socially secularized countries such as Norway have maintained constitutional recognition of an official state religion. The concept parallels various other international social and political ideas, including secularism, disestablishment, religious liberty, and religious pluralism."

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Old 6th June 2009, 20:25   #28
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Yes, which says that the Government will not establish any official religion. It doesn't say that all religion should be removed from Government. The entire Government isn't Christian. There are people who practice many different religions in Government (including Atheists).

Like I said previously. The phrase "Separation of Church and State" does not appear in any part of the constitution.

Quote:
Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#Am1

Where does that say there will be no religion in Government?
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Old 6th June 2009, 21:13   #29
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No! You can worship Queen Beverly or any God as you know it, in any House Of Worship, but you cannot put Queen Beverly's picture or image up in a class room or court room or any Government run institution.

And that should be just the beginng of what one can and cannot do under the law. Uh, see A Man For All Season's.
From A Man For All Seasons 1966
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William Roper: So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!
Sir Thomas More: Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
William Roper: Yes, I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
Sir Thomas More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's! And if you cut them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!

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Old 6th June 2009, 21:50   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by ryan
Oh, you said the magic word. The truth of the matter is there is no such thing as "separation of church and state". You find it in the constitution and I'll suck your dick.

http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQ...lcsm_index.htm
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Wikipedia
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"
I agree, that is as close as it comes, I guess that is worthy of a reach-around at least?


Again, my main concern with the entire issue is that this is one of the areas where the slippery slope argument holds valid. I find it hilarious how people bash atheists as godless hedonists (as someone in this thread seemed to find a reason to) and say that any instance of my protecting myself from their inane superstitions is somehow harming them. You give Jerry Falwell one chance, and he'd have every gay person, every atheist, every person who doesn't agree with him 100% lined up for the new inquisition. They accuse us of using subversive practices to force our godless ways upon their innocent children that they have been poisoning with their ghost stories since the day they where born. Yet it's the atheist hedonists who are somehow hurting them so much.

I also love the different associations between a person and the persons beliefs. Where in this thread have I made a singular personal attack against someone with religious beliefs? I have repeatedly stated my own thoughts about the beliefs they hold, (inane superstitions, etc etc) but have I once said anything specific about the person holding those beliefs? Give a religious person two seconds and they will call the atheist personally as a terrible immoral person just because they don't hold the same superstition that they do.

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Old 7th June 2009, 02:34   #31
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Like I said previously. The phrase "Separation of Church and State" does not appear in any part of the constitution.
That's a bullshit argument and you know it. Just because it doesn't explicitly say "separation of church and state" doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Precedent has basically established that the 1st Amendment DOES mean that church and government need to stay separate. Furthermore, writings by Thomas Jefferson make it clear that separation was the intent of the 1st Amendment.

There is no explicit "right to privacy" in the Constitution either, but we do have one - it's guaranteed by the 4th and 10th amendments.

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Old 7th June 2009, 03:18   #32
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Why does our money say "In GOD we trust" on it then? Why does the pledge of allegiance say "One nation UNDER GOD"?

If that was the true intent of the first amendment then none of those would exist.

Precedent and original intent are two different things.
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Old 7th June 2009, 03:28   #33
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"In God we trust" and "one nation under God" were added as a response to the Big Scary Godless Commies back in the 1950s. Prior to that, our de-facto motto (and the inscription on the currency) was "e pluribus unum".

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Old 7th June 2009, 03:36   #34
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only explanation i can give to that is that the bill designer must be religious, if it was some kind of national pledge (like the boy-scout's "stay true") then it has a point, but because its not, its some religious propaganda designed to be used subconsciously.
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Old 7th June 2009, 03:39   #35
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I'd also like to point out that "one nation under God" does not specifically endorse any religion. Hanging the 10 Commandments in a classroom does. While I disagree with both, the latter is something that deserves a lawsuit, while the former isn't.

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Old 7th June 2009, 04:47   #36
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Originally posted by Widdykats
I don't believe The Ten Commandments should be in the school hallway.
I think the Ten Commandments should be in the hallway. Maybe next to the ten commandments in the Quran and the 5, 8 and 10 precepts of Buddhism. Hell, haul out the Book of Mormon. It's a multicultural country. Schools should reflect the cultures and religions of the people in it.

To cover atheists, we could just post a big sign that says "NOTHING" or "If it feels good, do it" to cover the hedonists.

Or are atheists and humanists so afraid of the "big bad people who believe in God" composing 80% of the US population. As far as the ACLU goes, I think their lawyers are more interested in the millions of dollars they can extract in legal fees from unwitting school districts than social justice. OMG! someone said "creationism"! That's worth 10 million! Having Darwins Theory taught as fact and $4 will get you a latte. Not that I believe in creationism, but what the hell difference does it make?

Hanging up the Ten Commandments is hardly establishing a state religion, but it's been worth millions to ACLU lawyers.

"I am for socialism, disarmament and ultimately for abolishing the state itself as an instrument of violence and compulsion. I seek social ownership of property, the abolition of the propertied class, and sole control by those who produce wealth. Communism is the goal."(Peggy Lamson, Roger Baldwin: Founder of the American Civil Liberties Union: A Portrait [Boston: Houghton-Mifflin, 1976] p. 192

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Old 7th June 2009, 05:24   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by rockouthippie
I think the Ten Commandments should be in the hallway. Maybe next to the ten commandments in the Quran and the 5, 8 and 10 precepts of Buddhism. Hell, haul out the Book of Mormon. It's a multicultural country. Schools should reflect the cultures and religions of the people in it.

To cover atheists, we could just post a big sign that says "NOTHING" or "If it feels good, do it" to cover the hedonists.

Or are atheists and humanists so afraid of the "big bad people who believe in God" composing 80% of the US population. As far as the ACLU goes, I think their lawyers are more interested in the millions of dollars they can extract in legal fees from unwitting school districts than social justice. OMG! someone said "creationism"! That's worth 10 million! Having Darwins Theory taught as fact and $4 will get you a latte. Not that I believe in creationism, but what the hell difference does it make?

Hanging up the Ten Commandments is hardly establishing a state religion, but it's been worth millions to ACLU lawyers.

"I am for socialism, disarmament and ultimately for abolishing the state itself as an instrument of violence and compulsion. I seek social ownership of property, the abolition of the propertied class, and sole control by those who produce wealth. Communism is the goal."(Peggy Lamson, Roger Baldwin: Founder of the American Civil Liberties Union: A Portrait [Boston: Houghton-Mifflin, 1976] p. 192
Thank you.
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Old 7th June 2009, 06:43   #38
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Originally posted by mikm
That's a bullshit argument and you know it. Just because it doesn't explicitly say "separation of church and state" doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Precedent has basically established that the 1st Amendment DOES mean that church and government need to stay separate. Furthermore, writings by Thomas Jefferson make it clear that separation was the intent of the 1st Amendment.

There is no explicit "right to privacy" in the Constitution either, but we do have one - it's guaranteed by the 4th and 10th amendments.
Well said. Nuance is hard for some people. Demonization, ad hominem and slander are far easier.

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Old 7th June 2009, 07:16   #39
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I haven't demonized anyone, if you read the OP you would have noticed I do not believe in God. All I'm saying is that atheists and the ACLU should respect other peoples beliefs. Hanging the ten commandments or saying God in the pledge of allegiance isn't hurting anyone. Being offended by the word "God" is like a deaf person being offended by sound.

When 76% (wikipedia) of America is Christian, I don't see how this is a problem. This whole fucking country is backwards. The minority rules while the majority gets shit on.

Again, nobody has answered my question. How is God hurting you if you don't believe in it? Why can't you just ignore it? It's not YOUR government it's EVERYONE'S and 76% of that is Christian, so get over it and let them do their thing.
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Old 7th June 2009, 07:54   #40
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When 76% (wikipedia) of America is Christian, I don't see how this is a problem. This whole fucking country is backwards. The minority rules while the majority gets shit on.
Man those slaves back in the civil war would sure hate to meet your majority rule. Could have sworn there was this thing called the civil rights movement that was exactly that, the minority standing up for it's rights. Ya know the whole point of the constitution isn't to protect the majority, it's to protect the minority from the majority. How are you being hurt by us not having the ten commandments posted everywhere? Or how are you being hurt by us not having some imaginary friend praised in the pledge and the money?

And yes rockouthippie is blatantly demonizing anyone who isn't scared of some imaginary spook watching you from the sky as being immoral hedonists. I didn't realize my atheism mandated me to be hedonist or immoral. Only thing it's ever done is make me actually use my brain to stop and think about what is right and wrong instead of blindly listening to a bunch of nomadic sheep herders who thought every animal was within walking distance of noahs ark. Oh, and stop eating shellfish, stop wearing your blended fiber clothes, and all that other lovely leviticus stuff; because the pinnacle of our civilization is obviously made by people who hadn't even come up with writing yet and used oral tradition to pass on everything they knew.

Also, shut up about the lawyers. God forbid lawyers attempt to make money by ya know, doing their job of being a lawyer. I hate our law-suit happy culture, but our courts are there for a reason, to delegate legality. So seeing as that the lawyers are simply attempting to make sure the laws are upheld in whatever way they deem possible, that seems like just a terrible situation! So what if they happen to be working for the ACLU, maybe it's because the ACLU is a pretty good outfit to work for since there happens to be so many instances when civil liberties need to be defended by using the court system. If they weren't working for the ACLU, plenty of them could be easily making exponentially more money doing corporate law or any of the other deeply politically connected law paths.

I don't need to prove that god is hurting me, you need to come up with a reason why it should be there in the first place. The burden of proof is on you, not me, so stop trying to switch it just because you really know it shouldn't be there in the first place.

Also, kudos on dragging up one completely useless quote that has nothing to do with anything really. I can do that too:
“AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals”

“If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being”

“Textbooks are Soviet propaganda”

“It appears that America's anti-Biblical feminist movement is at last dying, thank God, and is possibly being replaced by a Christ-centered men's movement which may become the foundation for a desperately needed national spiritual awakening”

“Homosexuality is Satan's diabolical attack upon the family that will not only have a corrupting influence upon our next generation, but it will also bring down the wrath of God upon America.”

“God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve”

“(re: 9/11 attacks) "...throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools, the abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked and when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad...I really believe that the pagans and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way, all of them who try to secularize America...I point the thing in their face and say you helped this happen."”

- Jerry Falwell

That only took thirty seconds, you want more useless quotes?


Finally:
Quote:
Originally posted by ryan
Why does our money say "In GOD we trust" on it then? Why does the pledge of allegiance say "One nation UNDER GOD"?

If that was the true intent of the first amendment then none of those would exist.

Precedent and original intent are two different things.
=====>
Quote:
Originally posted by mikm
"In God we trust" and "one nation under God" were added as a response to the Big Scary Godless Commies back in the 1950s. Prior to that, our de-facto motto (and the inscription on the currency) was "e pluribus unum".
It's this great thing called the slippery slope! In 1776 this argument never existed, it has been created simply as a progression to add more religion into our government because that poor poor christian majority is being persecuted! The entire christian persecution is a concept that was devised as a political tool for the religious leaders to rally support from an otherwise apolitical congregation. Stop trying to force your shit beliefs on me through our government and maybe you'll stop getting persecuted for doing that!

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