Old 11th August 2012, 04:41   #1
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Illegals getting IRS tax refunds.

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Old 11th August 2012, 10:26   #2
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The IRS rules actually state:

"You can also claim exemptions for individuals who qualify as your dependents. To be your dependent, the individual must be a U.S. Citizen, U.S. National, U.S. Resident alien, or a resident of Canada or Mexico for some part of the calendar year in which your tax year begins".

The only thing that would make this fraud is if they were fictitious children or if your contribution to their support didn't qualify as them being your dependent.

You couldn't make that guess from looking at someones 1040. If you did, you'd be wrong a lot.

Citizens and legal resident aliens get the same credit for dependents. Legal resident aliens get an IITN number instead of a SS# just like the illegal ones.

What if you're a citizen supporting relatives children in Mexico or Canada? What if you're a legal resident alien supporting kids in Mexico or Canada?

What if you're my white citizen neighbor? He has 3 kids. He's tax exempt plus gets federal tax refund of 4 grand a year? He'd owe a couple grand if he was single.

Lets audit everyone who's brown and claims to support a bunch of kids. That oughta work.

Who gets this tax credit? Everyone with dependents and who files taxes.

The reporter: Do the kids live here? Have they ever lived here? It doesn't matter. If you are supporting children living in Mexico or Canada enough to claim them as a dependent, you're entitled to the tax credit.

If I were the tax preparer, whistleblower here, I couldn't infer that it was fraud because they were brown, claimed to support a bunch of kids and had an IITN.

That's no evidence at all. It's not surprising the IRS ignored him and this reporter.

Last edited by rockouthippie; 11th August 2012 at 13:19.
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Old 19th August 2012, 17:42   #3
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yeah anything to hurt legal citizens born and raised here and everything to help the invasion from the inside, not surprised.

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Old 27th August 2012, 22:22   #4
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Old 27th August 2012, 22:59   #5
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In true Oh noes fashion ted revives the thread with something exciting and politically correct.

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Old 28th August 2012, 00:42   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swingdjted View Post
[IMG]http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/3496/immigrantsd.png[/IMG]
That's very nice swingdjted, I do have some questions though.

  • When did two wrongs make a right?
  • How did illegal aliens obtain the legal status to work, let-alone the legal status required to file a tax return claim?
  • In what manner does a picture specifically designed to provoke a purely emotional knee-jerk reaction translate into a rational argument that asserts that it's either legally permissible or morally obligatory that we should allow illegal aliens, who's first order of business was the illegal entry into an existing sovereign country, to dishonorably leech off of us in the first place?
  • Since when did liberals argue that the amount of resources is not finite and is why I always hear from the same liberals on a non-stop and never-ending basis ad nauseam about the ever emerging and encroaching crisis of overpopulation? And isn't it also for the same reason of limited resources that liberals always moan and k'vich that rich people are rich only because they got rich by standing on the backs of the poor by hoarding all of the limited resource to the point that poor people can't get any (which is the current Marxist theory as I have read it)? Why should we, whether Democrat or Republican or Liberal or Conservative, to allow or encourage, whether directly, by proxy, or default, the continuous draining of resources in an already economically embattled nation? And for what, so we can continue to treat them as the proverbial 3rd class citizen to be used as cheap mules of labor?

Just some questions I expect to be answered logically.
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Old 28th August 2012, 01:58   #7
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Lol...

First of all, it was a small point, only meant as one, and mostly an effort to do what bible followers call "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". Whether or not one is prone to jerk their knee upon seeing the image is the choice of the reader. Not everyone jerks their center leg each time he sees a nude photo, so why such an explosion after the image above?.

Second, the whole "illegal aliens" term is a mostly bullshit-based bad-connotation term. Other than those who have 100% American Indian heritage, we all were "aliens" at one time, and the process of becoming legal was much different then. Our ancestors (poor huddled masses yearning to breathe free) would have never in a lifetime been capable of becoming citizens by following today's ridiculous bureaucracy. If the USA had the same process as it did then, these "illegals" would have easily been able to naturalize upon entry. Those who attack "illegal aliens" are forgetting, or more likely neglecting the principles upon which this country was built.

Also, if you're mad about the "illegals", let me tell you about illegal activity. Forget the immigrants and think about the illegal hiring and the non-taxing of employees without following the law when it comes to hiring only legal workers and collecting taxes using the W4 form. The burden is upon the employer to ensure this law is followed and that documentation is kept on file. Having an illegal employee is the employer's fault, not the employee's. The employers are the ones providing the motivation and means for the smuggling of humans to do this work.

Finally, the use of the Latino first names (intentionally not blacked out), the interviewing of latinos, and the constant bombardment with terms like illegal and aliens clearly shows the intention. Emotion! Knee Jerk! Why not make the same report for white citizens that commit the same crime, or Canadian immigrants? It's nothing more than blunt racism, blaming Latin Americans for a problem that should be blamed on the policies and procedures of the INS and IRS. You need to remember to hate the game, not the players. You can make futile attempts to take out the players all you want, but the game is still there, attracting more players. You're barking up the wrong tree here.

Finally, if you were in Mexico, living a life that our guests used to live, wouldn't you want to do exactly as they did to better yourself and your family? I sure as hell would, and I wouldn't feel any guilt whatsoever knowing my family had a better and safer life.

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Old 28th August 2012, 07:43   #8
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I'm going to keep this reply short for various reasons. I will simply rebuff all of your points by stating that I'm not satisfied with any of your answers (with some exceptions I will address later in this post) as I do not believe that any of what you have said satisfactorily addresses any of the questions I posed directly. All of them seem to be in-your-own-words regurgitations of the same old and tired talking-points memo attacks that have already been refuted:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzqg_QWgnFY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-taxkeodhxA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m39D8wYiXBk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arOL-FGbX7g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQUSjil-zqA

Now on the businesses hiring illegals issue, I agree, they should not hire the illegals. However, the infrastructure to detect illegals in the potential workforce pool does not adequately exist. And on top of that, every time I turn around I'm always hearing horror stories about businesses being sued, sometimes to the point of being shutdown, because of frivolous claims about bigotry and "racial profiling" whenever they try to verify the status of said workforce.

And it's not really a good argument to try to frivolously use someone's personal doctrines of faith that was only specifically intended on a personal only level to that person of faith as an ad-homonym battering ram to an entire tax base who doesn't even share the same values, especially if by one who doesn't believe in it anyway. Jesus Christ never advocated open anarchy or frivolously breaking the law of the land. When He stood before Pilate, it is written that Pilate said he could find no fault in Him. Which means He did not break even one Roman law of the land. He even paid the gorram'n taxes.

Last edited by thinktink; 28th August 2012 at 08:33. Reason: removing words that could potentially be considered inflamitory if misinterpreted.
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Old 28th August 2012, 13:13   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thinktink View Post
That's very nice swingdjted, I do have some questions though.

  • In what manner does a picture specifically designed to provoke a purely emotional knee-jerk reaction translate into a rational argument that asserts that it's either legally permissible or morally obligatory that we should allow illegal aliens, who's first order of business was the illegal entry into an existing sovereign country, to dishonorably leech off of us in the first place?
Because America, and it's entire economy, would collapse tomorrow if there was a magic button that could be pressed that would send all illegal immigrants home.

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Old 28th August 2012, 17:04   #10
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Because America, and it's entire economy, would collapse tomorrow if there was a magic button that could be pressed that would send all illegal immigrants home.
The bullet that you quoted has nothing to do with your argument. The bullet point was about either the legal permissibility or the moral obligation to allow illegal immigration, not a financial one. Painting a purely selfishly financial (and unsubstantiated but still moot even if true) horror story about a clearly temporary and transitory side consequence of mass deportations serves only highlight their continued exploitation in a system they clearly don't know how to legally operate inside. That's why we have a naturalization processes that they must go through first, however slow, so that they know that they have the right to (and know how to) compete for fair wages in an open labor market, defend their own human rights against both potential political and business adversaries, and generally be more productive members of society without living in the constant fear of deportation or other failures of operating in a society that clearly vastly differs from their former society/culture. There are so many laws, regulations, and systems that these people have no idea they need to follow to compete fairly in. To allow illegals to do the "jobs no Americans would do" (try selling that B.S. to the unionized coal miners in other states in America) serves only to artificially deflate wages in a clearly unfair labor market (thereby making entry into that market by legal citizens completely undesirable), stymies advances in potentially new agricultural technologies that could perform those tasks even more cheaply, and generally prevents current legal citizens who are currently part of the even now skyrocketing unemployment rate to get jobs at a living wage. And even after all of that, my fourth bullet already refuted your argument before you even posed it.

However, I have a suspicion that real reason Democrats want to allow more illegal immigration is to expand their re-election voting base.

Last edited by thinktink; 28th August 2012 at 17:12. Reason: grammar
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Old 28th August 2012, 20:27   #11
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i think you're forgetting two things there code boy, we're not immigrants anymore firstly and secondly, we stole it at gunpoint, they've never tried to take it back, we own it now, they've given up on it.

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Old 28th August 2012, 21:27   #12
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i think you're forgetting two things there code boy...
I do not know what to make of your statement, even after reading it several times I am unclear as to where you are going with it. And since I have misinterpreted some of your posts in the past I will refrain from commenting on this one further without further explanations of it's meaning.
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Old 29th August 2012, 01:21   #13
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Short? That was 45 minutes!

Ethan isn't referring to legalized citizens. He's referring to undocumented immigrants. If they all stopped working all of a sudden, the economy indeed would collapse, immediately. What you would almost instantly realize is the fact that these are hard-working people who would do our country a lot of productive good, so why not get them naturalized quickly so that they can become taxpayers and members of a society that becomes less lazy as a result?

I don't always answer all questions immediately because there's no rule stating that it is necessary, but also, I add important points that others don't always think about (e.g. exposing it for what it really is). But, if I must:

Bullet 1: Two wrongs don't make a right, but when you blame the symptom rather than the underlying problem, you're taking a shallow stance that won't lead to any working or lasting solution. I have already addressed this in many ways.

Bullet 2: These people were offered a better life by being hired. That's how. I addressed this when I said those who hire and provide human smuggling are at fault.

Bullet 3: I addressed knee-jerk. I also addressed the fact that our country was founded upon the principle that we openly allow melting-pot immigration, even when it comes to those who have little more than a little hope and work ethic. The jobs they hold are extremely hard labor jobs in difficult environments, probably much harder in many ways than yours or mine, for which they get paid very little, so how much are they really milking us?

On your fourth bullet... Draining resources? You drain more than "they" do. They're just looking for some food and a safe shelter, and if through competition and hard work they get it, then what's the problem? Overpopulation? Where do you live? Have you ever traveled around this country? I've lived in 5 states and traveled to 49. Trust me, we've got crowded cities, but the country as a whole is nowhere near overpopulated.

Truth be told, this initial complaint has very little to do with undocumented immigrants and very much to do with either racism, IRS/INS policy, or both. The exclusive use of Latino names, interviewees, and references shows more on race issues than anything else. Otherwise, it looks like someone is trying to blame children from Mexico for the problems of the US economy, which is (to forget about technical terminology) utter bullshit.

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Old 29th August 2012, 01:54   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thinktink View Post
I do not know what to make of your statement, even after reading it several times I am unclear as to where you are going with it. And since I have misinterpreted some of your posts in the past I will refrain from commenting on this one further without further explanations of it's meaning.
You don't understand how Native Americans or "Indians" where the first in America? Or you don't understand what code boy means?

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Old 29th August 2012, 02:04   #15
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It looks like thinktink was referring to TDM's statement, which was referring to . - .... .- -. ....'s statement, which was referring to thinktink's statement which was a response to my picture post, which was a reply to the original post.

I think...

...I may have gotten that right, but...

aww shit. I'm getting tired.

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Old 29th August 2012, 02:23   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thinktink View Post
I do not know what to make of your statement, even after reading it several times I am unclear as to where you are going with it. And since I have misinterpreted some of your posts in the past I will refrain from commenting on this one further without further explanations of it's meaning.
if the land doesn't matter enough for them to even attempt to take it back then i think will's argument is rather invalid.

[edit] that didn't used to be will did it? i can't remember anymore, that username is confusing [/edit]

[edit 2] just for clarity here, but what i'm getting at is, it's been so long and no one has even contested it, therefore we are the natives, we may have all but eradicated the indians but calling us immigrants is just wrong and overly insulting, besides a lot of people who actually did immigrate are long dead by now, we're mostly born and bred here. [/edit]

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Old 29th August 2012, 02:26   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swingdjted View Post
It looks like thinktink was referring to TDM's statement, which was referring to . - .... .- -. ....'s statement, which was referring to thinktink's statement which was a response to my picture post, which was a reply to the original post.

I think...

...I may have gotten that right, but...

aww shit. I'm getting tired.
Don't worry about it, I'm on here with a high fever. I have no clue whats going on. Try paying attention to stock market charts like that. It's hard.

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Old 29th August 2012, 02:38   #18
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Trying to pay attention to almost anything with a fever is very difficult if you ask me. Last time I had a high fever (at work unfortunately), I found a ride home rather than drive myself. I hope you're in the position where a little rest and recovery time won't sink your ship.

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Old 29th August 2012, 17:02   #19
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Yes, I am derailing the thread, but I just gotta know:

What is the one state you have not been to Ted?
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Old 29th August 2012, 18:53   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swingdjted View Post
Short? That was 45 minutes!
Ethan isn't referring to legalized citizens.
Neither was I.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swingdjted View Post
He's referring to undocumented immigrants. If they all stopped working all of a sudden, the economy indeed would collapse, immediately.
Unsubstantiated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swingdjted View Post
What you would almost instantly realize is the fact that these are hard-working people...
Straw-man argument. I never said or implied they were lazy. Leeches work hard to leech. They have to find a victim, attach to said victim, breach said victim's defenses to obtain the blood that they did not produce, and then process that blood for their own benefit.

Quote:
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I don't always answer all questions immediately because there's no rule stating that it is necessary, but also, I add important points that others don't always think about (e.g. exposing it for what it really is). But, if I must:

Bullet 1: Two wrongs don't make a right, but when you blame the symptom rather than the underlying problem...
The symptom is the problem. Democrats want to allow illegals to skirt the naturalization process to expand their voting base and provide more justifications for their dependency programs. Republicans want illegals to remain illegal so they can have an exploitable and cheap labor force.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swingdjted View Post
, you're taking a shallow stance...
It seems to me the more shallow stance is to make contrived and end-run-around arguments to try to justify the continued exploitation of others for their own personal gain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swingdjted View Post
Bullet 2: These people were offered a better life by being hired. That's how. I addressed this when I said those who hire and provide human smuggling are at fault.
So because you believe that just because their standard of living is raised ever-so slightly that it justifies exploitation? When you allow illegals to enter and work under the radar, a legal barrier is automatically raised from them being able to go beyond what everybody in this country should be free to try to attain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swingdjted View Post
Bullet 3: ... I also addressed the fact that our country was founded upon the principle that we openly allow melting-pot immigration...
Unsubstantiated, absurd, and patently false.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swingdjted View Post
..., even when it comes to those who have little more than a little hope and work ethic. The jobs they hold are extremely hard labor jobs in difficult environments, probably much harder in many ways than yours or mine, for which they get paid very little, so how much are they really milking us?
From an already limited pool and now especially shrinking job market. I addressed this issue in the 3rd bullet when I implied that it's patently false that their exists jobs that Americans won't do, they will, just not at the wages that illegal immigration has caused.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swingdjted View Post
On your fourth bullet... Draining resources? You drain more than "they" do.
Unsubstantiated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swingdjted View Post
They're just looking for some food and a safe shelter, and if through competition and hard work they get it, then what's the problem?
That's the problem, there is no competition when one group of people monopolize an entire job market by artificially deflating the wages by the fact that they are illegal and can be paid less by businesses willing (and able) to hire them.

Quote:
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Overpopulation? Where do you live? Have you ever traveled around this country? I've lived in 5 states and traveled to 49. Trust me, we've got crowded cities, but the country as a whole is nowhere near overpopulated.
You missed the point. I was pointing out the hypocrisy of the Liberals in their arguments for allowing illegal immigration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swingdjted View Post
Truth be told, this initial complaint has very little to do with undocumented immigrants...
Then why did you post it in an illegal immigration thread?



The goal of illegal immigration is to keep wages low. These illegals do not want to be citizens. That's why they illegally immigrate. Told false promises of a better life if they skirt the naturalization system which ultimately prevents them from getting out of poverty because they are not naturalized:
http://www.uscis.gov/files/article/chapter2.pdf

Exploitation is still exploitation no matter how much sugar you want to coat it with. "America has lost its soul so now it's going to save its body... ...Bullshit! Doesn't work that way." - George Carlin

Last edited by thinktink; 29th August 2012 at 18:56. Reason: grammar fail
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Old 30th August 2012, 07:07   #21
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@fc*uk - The one state I have not visited yet is Alaska, which is ironic because I've always wanted to visit it more than any other.

thinktink... we can at least agree that employers who are tax-evaders are at least a significant cause of this problem. I'm afraid the rest would be "beating a dead horse".

There's one last point that needs to be made though. The amount of people coming in to this country without becoming citizens has drastically dropped. I've recently (that being within the past few months) seen some reports showing this to be the case. Those that continue to make a big deal out of it are usually out to get some political pot-stirring going, but really, the issue seems to be resolving itself. I think the bigger issue here is to get people naturalized so that they can be legal and productive members of society.

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Old 30th August 2012, 07:23   #22
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@Ted when you go, let me know... It would be silly of you not come pass through BC on your way.... If you drive that is. We'll have a beer and some oysters.

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Old 30th August 2012, 08:27   #23
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Heh...

I just looked at some numbers:

If I were to take the most direct route, it would take 7 days of 11-hour-per-day driving one way to get to Fairbanks (77 hours).

My truck, while towing a decent trailer carrying supplies gets around 15-17 miles per US gallon. I'll say 15 to be safe. If I figure around $4 USD per US gallon (I assume a slightly high price to figure in a pair of oil changes), and 4,047 miles, I'm looking at nearly $1,100 USD one-way.

Ok, so round trip:
154 hours of driving plus stops (at least 2 full weeks)
8,094 miles (13,035 kilometers) distance
547 gallons of gasoline (2,070 liters) at $4/gal
$2,188.00 USD for vehicle travel alone, assuming no other maintenance or repair is needed
Plus any driving I do while there, or any driving I would do if I didn't take the most direct route.


Plus I'd have to figure out what to do with my baby daughter, whose vehicle seat is too big for my truck's back seat (wife would have front seat). I'd really love to do it with the truck rather than the car. It's better on rough roads and trails, which is something I'd like to explore up there. The baby adds a lot of travel time too (frequent feedings, diaper changes, etc.). I'll have to wait a few years, possibly as many as necessary to be an empty-nester, since kids don't particularly like that much time in a vehicle. The one good thing going for me is that I can take a 60-70 day break each year in the summer each year if I've saved enough money. Usually I just get a summer job.

Some day...

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Old 30th August 2012, 09:19   #24
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Yeah its a crazy drive, no worries I'll come to you!
In BC that is..

I shall stop de-railing. Sorry thinktink.

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Old 30th August 2012, 14:44   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swingdjted View Post
...
The amount of people coming in to this country without becoming citizens has drastically dropped. I've recently (that being within the past few months) seen some reports showing this to be the case...
I couldn't find the source you are referring to. Do you know where it is you heard that? If it's only been from the past few months then how do I know it wasn't just because of the current state of the economy?
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Old 31st August 2012, 02:24   #26
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The economy might have something to do with that, but really the economy hasn't changed much recently. There has been a significant increase in jobs in the private sector and also a significant decrease in jobs in the public sector.

Here's a bunch of articles on the topic (I just googled the topic), although they might not be the ones I was referring to, because I don't remember where I initially read it.

-edit-

Upon reading some of these, it looks like recent years for some articles and recent months for others, so it could be a lot of things - stricter boarder enforcement, economy, or perhaps something else.

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Old 31st August 2012, 19:22   #27
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Ah, I see. So using the figures I found in the first news articles that google popped, the number illegal immigrants inside the U.S. wouldn't reach zero until approximately 2423. Wouldn't go under half a million until somewhere between 2083 and 2087. And won't go under a million until somewhere between 2063 and 2067. And that's if the rate of change stays constant.
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Old 31st August 2012, 22:30   #28
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Your math is related to my topic but not really what I was talking about specifically. I was speaking more about boarder crossings, not so much those who are here already. That number is quite a major change.

For those that are here, I'd rather be a humanitarian and offer amnesty with the condition of having to become a tax-paying citizen, just like the rest of us rather than try and deport therm. I figure if they're hard working people (and most agree that they are), they can help this country in a lot of ways.

For those that aren't here yet, I'd like to offer guidance on how they can enter legally from the start, without forcing them through a process that takes years, mountains of paperwork, loads of money, and endless hoop-jumping, just like (or at least reasonably similar to) what was available to our ancestors.

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Old 1st September 2012, 02:37   #29
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Maybe the article you read talked about illegal immigration trends falsely or the article I read that talked about it in terms of those actually living inside was false. Here's the quote from the first article returned in the google search results you posted:
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxnews.com
Roughly 6.1 million unauthorized Mexican immigrants were living in the U.S. last year, down from a peak of nearly 7 million in 2007, according to the Pew Hispanic Center study released Monday.
- http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/04/23...-mexico-drops/

And here's one from the second:
Quote:
Originally Posted by nydailynews.com
Roughly 6.1 million unauthorized Mexican immigrants were living in the U.S. last year, down from a peak of nearly 7 million in 2007, according to the Pew Hispanic Center study released Monday.
- http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012...mmigration-law

And here's one from the fourth (the third one skipped details so I skipped it):
Quote:
Originally Posted by huffingtonpost.com
Roughly 6.1 million unauthorized Mexican immigrants were living in the U.S. last year, down from a peak of nearly 7 million in 2007, according to the Pew Hispanic Center study released Monday.
- http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1448343.html

I think you've missed my point entirely. Granting amnesty allows the illegals to skirt the naturalization process that includes, among other things, the rights and responsibilities of those immigrating into the U.S. in the first place. I posted a link to them in one of my earlier posts.

http://www.uscis.gov/files/article/chapter2.pdf
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Old 1st September 2012, 03:30   #30
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Finally,
America becomes stronger when all of
its citizens respect the different opinions,
cultures, ethnic groups, and religions
found in this country. Tolerance for
differences is also a responsibility of
citizenship.

^That's a quote from what you posted. I have no idea what you mean when you say "skirt" or how it implies that such a thing is bad. There is no reason it should take years to understand one page of rights and responsibilities. To say that we should make a long drawn out ordeal out of naturalization would be to say that the people who let our ancestors in had it wrong.

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Old 1st September 2012, 13:42   #31
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Amnesty is indicated as much as it goes against my grain. There is no compassionate way to deport 15 million people. You'd start major rioting. It would make a lot of noise.

Obama probably did that amnesty deal likely saving us from a fracas. If you can't compassionately deport them, you give them papers. I think the anonymous sub culture the illegals live in is as much of a problem as the illegals themselves.

It's also a little disconcerting that 400 people a year die trying to get in the country over the Mexican border. I wish the Mexicans would go home, but no serious harm should come to them. Nobody should die.

If you just went out with your jack boots on and rounded up 15 million Mexicans, somebody would get dead or hurt. You shouldn't get death for violating our immigration laws.

I'm not sure what would happen if you dropped 15 million people in central Mexico in a big blob. You can bet it wouldn't be pretty. You could count on a death toll.

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Old 1st September 2012, 15:40   #32
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A number of prior cultures have had similar issues leading to their decline. Rome in its downward spiral had a situation where the national population could not sustain itself (<1.3 births anyone?), the majority of critical work eventually ended up being done by those who did not really have a stake in the nation, there was successive myopic leadership and successive disasters. Strategically there is a point of no return that will always come. If you ask any strategist worth his salt he will tell you we are 3 generations away from that point today.
*Off to destroy Smaug*

I am so important I feel the need to let it be known like a liberal discovering the internets for the first time. Uh hur hur hur. I also wash myself with a rag on a stick.
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Old 1st September 2012, 18:09   #33
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I am 3 generations (or 4 if you count my grandmother's mom who was the adult when coming in) away from the initial immigration of my family. My grandmother's mom worked odd labor jobs just like those coming from Mexico today, and she didn't speak much English (her family and land had stuck with the Irish Gaelic language). I have no evidence to support whether or not she was an income taxpayer, sadly I suspect not, but if you look at what came next, it turned out to be quite a net gain.

My grandmother herself was 7 years old when she entered and was faster to learn English, but still didn't know it upon entry. She got a job after 8th grade and worked a very long career as a switchboard operator (telegraph and telephone operations; lots of unplugging and re-plugging of patch cords) for a steel mill. She never bothered with high school. She paid taxes and raised a family by herself. The next generation (first US born, my dad) got a bachelor's degree and a good professional career and is now retired. That brings us to me, I have the same plus a masters degree. Perhaps my daughter will go further yet, but for now she only knows how to say "ella" when trying to say hello - still a bit shy of 3 months old.

To me, this whole thing is the "American Dream", and I don't find it fair to allow my family to have it while denying some newbies from Latin America of the same thing. In a lot of ways people see it as harder in these tough economic times, but my family started during the Great Depression. It's still possible if people can naturalize quickly.

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Old 1st September 2012, 20:06   #34
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I don't find it fair to allow my family to have it while denying some newbies from Latin America of the same thing
I do find that fair, but there is only so far you can go to get rid of them if they do get in.
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Old 1st September 2012, 21:03   #35
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Well, 15 million... that would be a pretty big bus full of pretty mad people

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Old 2nd September 2012, 05:23   #36
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The myth of multiculturalism does not justify exploitation:
http://www.independent.org/store/book.asp?id=38
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OS_U5-enDrg
http://www.therightplanet.com/2011/0...iversity-hoax/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9POkP2oCFhA

And no, anti-multiculturalism or anti-diversity does not automatically make a person a racist. It's simply an argument for a sovereign and homogenous nation. In case you don't believe me, grab a dictionary.

Amnesty is not a "fast-track" to citizenship. It does not even come close to fulfilling the requirements of legal immigration. These laws are not arbitrary, burdensome, or ill-gotten. They were established to conform with the spirit and legal premises of The Constitution (and in some cases, precedent setting court cases and other State laws and statutes) dealing with legal standing, jurisdiction, reasonable person argumentation, and other reasons:
http://nafbpo.org/nafbpo_whylaws.html

And the costs far outweigh any alleged benefits anyway:
http://www.c1-8cav68.org/personal/Im...lawscosts.html

And as far as the argument that we can't deport them or there will be dire and detrimental consequences? From who, the liberals and leftists that allowed it in the first place?
  • There is no legitimate moral justification to perpetuate it.
  • There is no legitimate legal reason to allow it.
  • There is no legitimate logical argument to ignore it.
  • There is no legitimate economic theory to accept it.
It's just plain wrong and you know it.
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Old 2nd September 2012, 16:43   #37
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The costs link (Mexico's immigration laws) says "this nation's language". We don't have an official language of the nation, and we don't need one. The market should decide what language is spoken and where. I didn't mind having to learn a second language so that I could be good at my job. The waterfront property ownership restriction is bullshit. USA investors and developers have bought huge amounts of Mexican coastal real estate. I've been there (my example is in Mazatlan).
It also says foreigners can't wave their flag... What about those who visit for the Olympics? Yet another bullshit suggestion for the USA where freedom of speech should be absolute, for anyone, guest or not. The list of expenses below that in Blue is so full of holes that it would take a book to list them all (e.g. the author counts the same expense more than once using different description, or counts expenditures of US citizens as a problem with illegal immigration). I've already illustrated how my family's immigration has been an enormous return on the investment my country made in us.

On the first youtube vid... She contradicts herself. USA is on the higher end of "happiness" and yet she says our diversity makes us unhappy. She mentions the Democratic Republic of the congo... That's an SES thing, not a diversity thing. As a matter of fact, all the "negetive" things she says is correlated to SES standing, not race issues. Hardworking people, given admission to the land of opportunity can become higher SES status.

Your third link says that immigrants should "assimilate". That was never part of the deal, and it never will be. If it was, we'd be assimilating to Native American culture.

The racist argument still holds. You are speaking out against other races that are not your own. What if someone who immigrated from Mexico before your family did said you should assimilate to their culture? Would you still say assimilation is the right thing? Supporting a homogenous nation is against the whole reason for being here in the first place. If you don't like it, go to a country that isn't a melting pot. Our success is based on our multiculturalism, accepting the good ideas and hard work of those the come here to share it.

Your 5th link doesn't at all show how the immigration laws conform with the Constitution.

There are several reasons we can't deport millions of people. As RoH said, it would very likely cause killing and civil unrest, far more than what would happen if they were left here to be naturalized. It would cause countless businesses to fail, whereas naturalization would cause less businesses to fail. It would cause people to be forced to leave a first world country and enter a third world country, while if left here they could do us a lot of good with their work and potential to pay taxes.

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Old 2nd September 2012, 22:18   #38
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Immigrants should learn English because English is the language of work. You... no habla English.. and it's gonna be way harder to find work or interact with the rest of the country in a reasonable way.

I saw a Mexican guy on TV explain this really simply He who speaks English gets the job. There is at least one immigrant guy who thinks bilingual education is a very bad idea.

It's simple. You will get the job a lot easier if you speak English than if you babble at someone in Spanglish.

There is another problem. Generally if they don't speak English, they can't read Spanish. Literate Mexicans can usually get by in English. Somehow if they went to school, somebody taught them a little English.

Some of the bilingual stuff is necessary, but not speaking English is something that needs to get out of racial context and into a discussion about literacy.

90% of the people you meet here don't speak Spanish. That's gotta mess with your life.
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Old 2nd September 2012, 22:23   #39
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That was exactly my point when I said that the market should decide what language is spoken; you pretty much hit the nail on the head. I'm just saying it doesn't have to be a requirement, since there are some decent jobs where English isn't really necessary.

It's very hard to learn a new language as an adult, and sometimes you have to wait for the next generation to pick it up fully. That seems to be my family's history, but overall it worked out.

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Old 2nd September 2012, 22:25   #40
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since there are some decent jobs where English isn't really necessary.
In Mexico........

The second and third generation Mexican kids.... no more trouble than anyone else....
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