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Old 17th December 2004, 16:21   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Talbain
If you'd stop and think about what needs to be fixed, you'd find that it isn't the person's skin color, it's the crime.
I believe that's the point I was trying to get across.
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Old 17th December 2004, 16:37   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by Talbain
Saying that you don't think we should be racist but we should spend more time trying to prevent black crime is completely contradictory. Plus, even assuming we could do it, how do you think it comes off? Racist. Which again, leads to more racial tension, and as a result, more crime. If you'd stop and think about what needs to be fixed, you'd find that it isn't the person's skin color, it's the crime.
So if there are more police put in a predominantly black neighborhood (which has a crime rate of about, say, 5X a comparable white neighborhood), is that racism, or fighting crime?

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Old 17th December 2004, 18:16   #43
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Both.
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Old 17th December 2004, 18:47   #44
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its racist to fight crime where crime exists? or where its more likely to exist?

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Old 17th December 2004, 18:53   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by Talbain
Both.
So, you're saying that it's best to put the same number of police in each of these fictional neighborhoods?

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Old 17th December 2004, 19:46   #46
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It's best to put more police where more crime occurs. Of course, if you simply prevented the crime before the police became involved, you wouldn't need them at all.

However, it doesn't mean that people should be profiled based on their race.
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Old 17th December 2004, 20:01   #47
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in his situation they werent profiling by race.. they were being profiled by which area has higher crime rates.. it just so happens that the neighborhood that has a black majority has a higher crime rate

the only way i can see it being racist(in his situation) is if because the police are more lenient to those in the white community, there is a lower crime rate than in the black community

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Old 17th December 2004, 20:05   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by electricmime
...it just so happens that the neighborhood that has a black majority has a higher crime rate...
Careful... Jesse Jackson will open up a can o' whoopass on ya' for that kind of talk!

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Old 17th December 2004, 20:16   #49
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if only i had prefaced that with "in his situation"

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Old 17th December 2004, 20:57   #50
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It's pretty sad. We're so overly sensitive in this country that you can't fight crime based on the description of the people doing the crime, but it's ok for the criminals to descriminate. The same saying that applies to terrorirsts applies to crime: "Criminals only have to be right once. We have to be right all the time." Profiling a group of people because that group of people commits more crimes than anyone else is just the same as profiling a group of people because they're terrorists. What's the difference? If you can take a pile of statistics to the people and say, "Look... this is why it appears to be the profiling of blacks: Because blacks commit most crimes in this area and it's a predominantly black area so it just so happens that blacks are profiled.", then it should be enough evidence to warrant the need for profiling. If a bunch of middle-easterners are committing terrorist acts you don't go looking for white men in turbins. lol Use some common sense! There HAS to be some sort of profiling or the police can't do their jobs effectively. If a black man rapes and kills your daughter and it's been proven the man is black by the evidence or possibly a witness, do you want the police to go looking for a white guy simply because it can be considered racist to look for the real culprit. That's what it sounds like--that you'd rather let it go than have someone be 'offended' due to profiling. Give me a break! lol

These same people that are all sensitive about other peoples' feelings have a major flaw in their thinking. The people they're busy feeling sorry for could care less about them or their touchy-feely cause. More often than not crying racism is used as a tool to get what they want. All you're doing is playing into their hands and giving them a little more leverage to take even more advantage. Maybe it'll be your daughter next because you didn't allow the system to work. What will you say then?

Innocent until proven guilty. That's already law. It's not wrong to pull someone over and check them out because they match a suspect's description and/or drive a car matching the description of a car seen at the scene of a crime. Again, it's common sense. If you tie the peoples' hands behind their back that are supposed to be protecting us more crime is going to take up the vacuum.

People are profiled for a reason... because there's crime being perpetrated by a certain group of people matching the profile. Law enforcement doesn't sit around in their offices and pick out minorities to pick on for fun. There's a reason. I admit there have been cases of true racism, but the majority of profiling is based in fact and crime statistics.

It's hard not to hate a group of people that affect your neighborhoods negatively. If all white people were racist you'd see a lot more white-on-black crime. Instead, whites and other races would rather flee the minority-ridden neighborhoods and leave them to fight amongst themselves. It's happening all over America. People flee neighborhoods for a better place to live. Minorities follow and the process starts all over again. White people and other races bend over backwards nowadays to let minorities fit in. It's not doing a damn bit of good. You can't make people be who they're not. That's evident all over America. People need to wake up.

We have been tolerant to the point of it being ridiculous. Even when there were so-called 'race riots' there was never a white person lift a finger against a black man unless it was to defend himself. Go ahead and live in a fantasy world where minorities make great contributions to our society, that's your prerogative. One day there will be an awakening and people won't take the shit anymore. I long for that day.

And ya know... it's not just crime. It's how minorities treat people, with an indignation--like after all this time there's still something owed. Yes, I agree... there's still something owed and it's long overdue: A swift kick in the ass to put them in their place.

There are some people from India that own a Subway across the street from where I live. I go in there all the time and get subs. The place is clean, the people are friendly. The person making my sub sometimes doesn't understand that I want black pepper on my sub, but that doesn't bother me. These people are making an honest effort at life and they're succeeding. There are Chinese businesses I frequent all the time and the people are outgoing and treat you with respect. I have no problem with other races at all, until they start treating me wrong or my people wrong. And it's evident that blacks have a problem across America, not just in my own nearby cities and towns. I no longer feel like it's my duty to go the extra mile to make them feel welcome anymore. Am I gonna burn a stake in their yard? No. But I expect better from a people that has it better than any other race in this country. Ask yourself, why after 40+ years of kissing their ass does it still seem like they're getting nowhere?

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Old 17th December 2004, 21:10   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by cgfiend
It's pretty sad. We're so overly sensitive in this country that you can't fight crime based on the description of the people doing the crime, but it's ok for the criminals to descriminate.
its not alright for them to descriminate.. thats called a hate crime(although i disagree with that.. i mean are they saying its worse to kill a guy because hes gay than it is to just kill him for his money, though i dont know what exactly the significance of 'hate crime' is.. i thought it actually meant that the crime was 'worse' and the punishment was more severe, but i am told it just means that the fbi gets involved so its not a local matter where racist and corrupt police can let it all slide or purposely screw up the case)

besides... i thought racial profiling was not describing the suspect as 'white' or 'black' but instead its like.. seeing a black guy driving, and for no reason whatsoever pulling him over because hes black.. and you think he might be up to no good.. because hes black.. especially if you are just looking for anything to call a crime

its okay to have more cops in a neighborhood with a high crime rate that is also mainly black, but its not okay to have more cops in a neighborhood because its mainly black, and other neighborhoods that are mainly black have high crime rates(even though this paticular neibhorhood doesnt)

i believe thats what racial profiling is refering to

i could be wrong though

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Old 17th December 2004, 22:06   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by Talbain
It's best to put more police where more crime occurs. Of course, if you simply prevented the crime before the police became involved, you wouldn't need them at all.

However, it doesn't mean that people should be profiled based on their race.
I wasn't asking that. Let's say that you have two neighborhoods, one predominantly white, one predominantly black. Their socioeconomic status is roughly equal. The black one has 5X the crime rate as compared to the white one. Is it racist to put more police in the black neighborhood?

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Old 17th December 2004, 22:10   #53
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more importantly, who would it be racist against? thinking that crime is more likely in a black community, or neglecting the white community the same protection against crime?

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Old 18th December 2004, 07:09   #54
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Perhaps if you'd stop looking at them as another race and start seeing them as human beings, you'd be able to accept them, despite their faults.
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Old 18th December 2004, 07:18   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by electricmime
more importantly, who would it be racist against? thinking that crime is more likely in a black community, or neglecting the white community the same protection against crime?
Neither. Simply Put.

I've experienced "ghettos" and "hoods" and I've come to this conclusion:

"Caucasian" dominate communities are already patrolled regularly. BUT hoods are patrolled somewhat equally but its not enough to deter crime. Usually, cops who I see patrol the "easy" communities I like to call lazy. There's like 5 patrol cars sitting there while they go in convience stores and shop for snacks(and eat them there). Harris County, Texas is a prime example of that. Also, There is what's called the "community" factor that comes into place when you experience the hood. There are the "criminals" and the people who live there. Often time the people who live there are just trying to live their lives but the "criminals" make it almost impossible. BUT when it comes to getting the police involved, there aren't many dealing with the situation or the precinct won't assign additional help.

As I see it, If more "level headed" police "do their job" in the areas affected they can curve the crime rate significantly. BUT to totally curve it for the better, there must be other needs met like good Jobs and good schools. Not to mention the proper healthcare and assistance. Yes that means a "level" of welfare and counseling to help people get back on track.

Remember that most Hoods have more than just Black residents nowdays. Hoods now normally include other minorities and what many people like to call "white trash".

ALSO, you need to remember that most "better" neighborhoods already have great healthcare, Jobs and schools. You just need to be well enough off to move there. Most honorable people in the hood don't have the option or is just trying to reform the community itself.
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Old 18th December 2004, 10:19   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by Talbain
Perhaps if you'd stop looking at them as another race and start seeing them as human beings, you'd be able to accept them, despite their faults.
maybe the police arent looking at them by their race, but instead looking at them by who needs more protection based on the crime rate

maybe its only the people who complain about it who look at people by their race, and assume everyone else looks at people the same way they do...


Quote:
Originally posted by Omega X
Neither. Simply Put.

I've experienced "ghettos" and "hoods" and I've come to this conclusion:

"Caucasian" dominate communities are already patrolled regularly. BUT hoods are patrolled somewhat equally but its not enough to deter crime. Usually, cops who I see patrol the "easy" communities I like to call lazy. There's like 5 patrol cars sitting there while they go in convience stores and shop for snacks(and eat them there). Harris County, Texas is a prime example of that. Also, There is what's called the "community" factor that comes into place when you experience the hood. There are the "criminals" and the people who live there. Often time the people who live there are just trying to live their lives but the "criminals" make it almost impossible. BUT when it comes to getting the police involved, there aren't many dealing with the situation or the precinct won't assign additional help.

As I see it, If more "level headed" police "do their job" in the areas affected they can curve the crime rate significantly. BUT to totally curve it for the better, there must be other needs met like good Jobs and good schools. Not to mention the proper healthcare and assistance. Yes that means a "level" of welfare and counseling to help people get back on track.

Remember that most Hoods have more than just Black residents nowdays. Hoods now normally include other minorities and what many people like to call "white trash".

ALSO, you need to remember that most "better" neighborhoods already have great healthcare, Jobs and schools. You just need to be well enough off to move there. Most honorable people in the hood don't have the option or is just trying to reform the community itself.
yes, im aware of that, but we are using the situation of the two communities, and i was asking talbain 'if it IS racist... who is it racist to'

i dont think its racist to have more cops in an area which has more crime, just because that area has a black majority

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Old 18th December 2004, 11:11   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by cgfiend
And it's evident that blacks have a problem across America, not just in my own nearby cities and towns.
Not all blacks. Just some. That's what makes the view racist, after all.

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Old 18th December 2004, 12:58   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
Not all blacks. Just some. That's what makes the view racist, after all.
If you go back and look at my posts in this thread you'll see I did mention not all blacks are the problem. You're so quick to label someone a racist.

I reiterate. My views on blacks are based on my own personal experiences and the big picture as I see it. If it's racist to dislike a people, the majority of which are bad apples, then I'm a racist through and through. You see, it doesn't bother me to be called a racist. People gasp like it's some sort of blight on their conscience. How dare I form an opinion and have strong feelings about it.

I have no respect for people that don't respect themselves. You see, they have a comfortable position where they are. If they changed that means the race card can't be used anymore and the handouts and perks will stop. They want to be in a position where the slightest yelp means they'll get everything they want. I also see the problem as a whole race of people stuck in a rut of self-pity and hate. If anything black-on-white racism is far more prevalent than white-on-black racism. Not only is it evident in the news every day, it's also evident in the attitudes blacks have against whites in everyday interactions. All you have to do is walk out your door and run into some blacks and you'll notice it immediately.

In my opinion, blacks are exactly where they want to be. There may be some that want to rise above and achieve more, but as a whole it seems blacks are comfortable where they are. Without race and oppression as a crutch they would have to assimilate into society and they don't want to do that because it would mean the end of the race card.

Black crime is a direct result of this. 'The man' IS keeping the blacks down---the black man. As for the hate crimes... I can understand why whites and others are pissed. I no longer want my tax dollars to go to black trash. They take but don't give back. In my lifetime I've yet to see any major achievements by blacks. It's evidence in itself that they don't want to be a part of western culture, to contribute. I may be wrong, but I think the last major invention by a black person was peanut butter. Something to think about. lol

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Old 18th December 2004, 15:40   #59
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I wouldn't say it was a "majority" of blacks. A majority of blacks in all-black neighbourhoods where unemployment is high and poverty is rife, yes. I would suggest there's social factors there, though.

My main exception is with your opposition to "race mixing", to be honest, though. I can't see any logical argument to opposing a black man and a white woman dating, other than if you're classing them all as bad. If, as it appears in this case, people are just opposing it because they are different races, I see no logical justification to that but hatred. If there were a good reason to oppose their union - one or the other was known as a "bad apple", they hang around with a bad crowd, any number of good reasons - people wouldn't have to fall back to a race distinction.

I won't accept that any act should be opposed simply because of the race of those involved. That is not sufficient reason.

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Old 29th December 2004, 11:11   #60
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cgfiend

thanks for standing up and bring this up front

A+ for courage

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Old 30th December 2004, 09:25   #61
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Having a society free of racism is completely different to being politically correct.

Racism will always play a huge part in social interaction simply because it is natural for us to treat strangers who belong to a minority in a different way to how we treat "normal" people. Politically Correctness would have us ignore this element of human nature in favour of us constantly hiding our feelings.

As a result, the FBI get called in when one single person writes some hate mail, because as a society we like to think that this persons mentality is so incredibly threatening: If people are openly racist, then everyone suddenly feels guilty about our past and the days of slavery.

In my opinion this is just stupid. People seem to prefer to keep everything hidden rather than face the problem.

@cgfiend

Very courageous of you to say things like that on an internet forums full of fierce liberals and humanitarians.

You are right that there is a problem, but in my opinion you are trying too hard to fix blame upon something.

It is very easy to personify the entire "black race" and blame them for there own problems, but the reality is, their situation is the result of a vast number of factors, most obviously, that they are a minority. To say that they are "comforatable" with their position in their society misses the issue, and ignores questions like WHY they are comfortable.

The age old excuse that you use: "I have no respect for people that don't respect themselves", is very tired and blind. Numerous psychological studies involving the influence of power in various situations have demonstrated how quickly people of ANY race conform to the role of "oppressed" when they are part of a minority.

When you personify the entire black race and use this excuse you are assuming that there is some biological difference that makes them not want to help themselves, which is clearly not the case.

My point is, you can't just cast aside a problem claiming that it caused itself, so it isn't your duty to care for it. No one is asking you to be humanitarian, but if the issue does matter to you, then maybe you should research it thouroughly, rather than summing up your opinion based on your few experiences.

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