Old 13th September 2012, 18:30   #361
big_blue
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
That could be the problem. Maiko gets info on the number of speakers from what is set for the OS via the Windows sound preferences. You have 'told' Maiko to connect to speakers that do not exist. In exclusive mode, Maiko bypasses the Windows mixer and connects directly to the speakers via the sound card/chip driver (or something like that). In shared mode, Maiko uses the Windows mixer to access the speakers.

Try changing the Windows sound speaker options to 5.1, it may not be enough to select 7.1 and disable the side speakers. Why would you want to do that anyway, since you do not have a 7.1 system?
Unfortunately the 5.1 option assumes that I have side speakers, not rears, so it doesn't work for my setup. I had to choose 7.1 as it was the only one that included rear speakers.
big_blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th September 2012, 19:22   #362
big_blue
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 63
I believe I've fixed it, thanks for the advice! I plugged the black (rear) speaker cable into the grey (side) port and set it all up for 5.1 playback. Although they're actually behind me, they're now recognized as side speakers, which qualifies as a 5.1 setup (fucking Windows/Realtek, get your act together). Now shared mode works just fine

Only problem is, I still can't get the rear speakers to play in either mode, with "Slave to input channels..." unchecked (or checked). I'm assuming it's my mixer setup? The mixer tab looks like this



and when I uncheck Automate, the B_L and B_R rows aren't configurable. The boxes in the bottom two rows/first two columns are, though. Also, what is the L_F row for? Those boxes are open. Which are responsible for side speakers? Thanks again for all your assistance.


EDIT: Guess those last two rows controlled side speakers. I have them set up to

1 -1
-1 1

and I can hear the rears clearly. So glad to finally have this all set up. It sounds wonderful.

Last edited by big_blue; 13th September 2012 at 20:40.
big_blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th September 2012, 01:45   #363
SilverBird775
Senior Member
 
SilverBird775's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Russia
Posts: 237
Ouch.. So much posts to answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
You're the expert. Little bit more is kinda vague.
Is the increase in precision worth the start delay?

Bad question? I can only assume you think yes, or you would not have added this feature.
To me, it depends. Sometimes i prefer to change formats\bitrates quick for an swift preview. In this circumstances having a start delay is annoying and cant be tolerated. Other day i give up all for a better sound.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark007 View Post
Hi SilverBird775. I'm still using you're plugin to great effect, very happy. I use my PC connected to my Samsung HDTV which in PC Mode has about 50ms delay compared to audio, so I delay audio in all playback software to match up.

However when I try to delay output by 50ms from maiko wasapi 0.53, the sound skips / stutters. I'm not sure if you can reproduce on your end or if you'd like any information from me. I'm using Xonar HDAV Deluxe 1.3 analogue, Win 7 64bit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark007 View Post
Hi Aminifu,

I'm was going to use the plugins delay functionality, to make audio match up to video, so that things like beat visualization, or other visualization plugins correspond more exactly to audio output. At the moment my TV has a significant delay, which makes things like the audio beat visualization look silly, its so far off.
The output channel delays can be adjusted relative to each other. It's a room correction feature. Having channels all delayed is sense less. To bring audio and video altogether is not a plugin's job but a player. The only option dealing with a video delay issues is the "genuine latency formula" switch. This setting do not delay anything but reports different audio device latencies to winamp. One latency is a real device latency the other one is a wrong but standard winamp 'genuine' formula. Some is always working better then another one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeldImZelt View Post
@SilverBird775:
Can you add an SSE runtime path or release a separate SSE version? Is the source code available somewhere?
No because everyone must have SSE2 capable processor by now. No because i'm not interested in offshoots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by schulze View Post
hi SilverBird775!

i'm following your plugin (and this thread) since the early beginnings and appreciate the work you put into it. i think it's great and i like using it.
but sadly i have to confirm what Aminifu stated above. i had exactly the same experience an reverted back until the situation clarifies. it's quite odd that the v0.53 i loaded from your website on 7th september isn't identical to the v0.53 offered now without further notice from your side.

hope to hear from you
Must be some automation error while updated the site. The newer build must be slipped through. It is hand stamped although when no version identifier changed there should not be dramatic difference.
SilverBird775 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th September 2012, 13:34   #364
Aminifu
Forum King
 
Aminifu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 4,658
Hi big_blue,

Glad you found work-arounds that work for you. WA + Maiko + Enhancer really does sound great.

Microsoft and Realtek do have their issues and your setup is certainly not acting normally. I use a 6 channel (5.1) sound card and my MSI mobo's 8 channel (7.1) sound chip (Realtek ALC889/ ALC888S/ ALC885 according to the documentation). Both are active, with the sound card selected as the default device connected to my 5.1 speakers. I have a 5.1 headset connected to the mobo sound chip's rear connectors.

I sometimes use a DJ app (VirtualDJ) that lets me use both sound devices at the same time. This lets me play songs thru the speakers and preview and clue up songs with the headset. Anyway on my system, the Windows sound control panels show all 8 channels with the side channels greyed out, since I selected the 5.1 speakers option.

I assume you've checked the Windows Device Manager for indications of any problems and you have all the OS updates related to the sound subsystem and the latest driver for your Realtek chip. If your chip is anything like mine, it can be setup to operate in many various ways. I suggest you check your configuration settings and contact your mobo's vendor for help getting your rear speakers to work thru the proper connector.

As to the Maiko Mixer tab, The first 2 columns correspond to the left and right input channels coming from your stereo source file. The top six rows should correspond to the 6 output channels in a 5.1 system. The L_F row should let you control what's send to the subwoofer, but that's not working yet (the plug-in controls what is sent to the sub). I did not know that the bottom 2 rows let you control what is sent to side speaker channels (that's good to know, glad you discovered that).

The values you enter control the amplitude of what's coming from the left and/or right input that is send to the corresponding output. A 1.0 sends the full input, 0.7071 sends half of the full input, and 0 sends nothing. Since the balance controls are not working yet, you can compensate by using different values for the left and right instead of the same values. For instance, if the right side sounds a little weak, you can slightly increase the values for the right side or slightly decrease the values for the left.

Negative values invert the input. Mixing a inverted signal with the same non-inverted signal cancels the signal out. Most stereo music has the same signals in both channels and different signals. When you mix positive left input and negative right input, the same signals in both the left and right inputs are cancelled out depending on the relative amplitudes. So, setting 1 for the left input and -1 for the right input , you get all that is different in the left and right and cancel out what is the same in both input channels going to the corresponding output.

This lets you remix any way you want and end up with a totally different sound from the original recordings. Overdue stuff and you can mess up the sound.

Winamp Pro v5.666.3516 fully-patched - Komodo X Touchscreen v1.0 by Victhor skin
Windows 10 Home 64-bit v1809 desktop - Logitech Z906 5.1 speaker system

Last edited by Aminifu; 14th September 2012 at 14:50.
Aminifu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th September 2012, 14:24   #365
Aminifu
Forum King
 
Aminifu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 4,658
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverBird775 View Post
The output channel delays can be adjusted relative to each other. It's a room correction feature. Having channels all delayed is sense less.
Can you explain how you have this setup to work? For instance, if the type of delay is "feet" does a larger number increase or decrease the output relative to a smaller number? I have a home theater system that lets me enter the distance each speaker is from the 'sweet spot' and it automatically adjusts each speaker's relative volume so that they all sound equally loud at the 'sweet spot'. Does your "feet" delay do this?

What affect does the "samples" type of delay have? And so on for all the other delay types.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverBird775 View Post
Must be some automation error while updated the site. The newer build must be slipped through. It is hand stamped although when no version identifier changed there should not be dramatic difference.
It's understandable that versions get released from time to time without the corresponding documentation (change log) being updated. Even forgetting to update the version number within a new version happens.

But what about the detection of the virus/malware? Do you think it was a false positive? I did not think to save the files for double checking. What about the idea of providing a checksum so that the validity of a file can be checked after download?

Winamp Pro v5.666.3516 fully-patched - Komodo X Touchscreen v1.0 by Victhor skin
Windows 10 Home 64-bit v1809 desktop - Logitech Z906 5.1 speaker system
Aminifu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th September 2012, 15:14   #366
Aminifu
Forum King
 
Aminifu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 4,658
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverBird775 View Post
To me, it depends. Sometimes i prefer to change formats\bitrates quick for an swift preview. In this circumstances having a start delay is annoying and cant be tolerated. Other day i give up all for a better sound.
I only have a delay when I first start a playlist. If songs in the playlist were encoded at different bitrates (i.e. 128kbps and 256kbps) there is no delay between them during playback.

Winamp Pro v5.666.3516 fully-patched - Komodo X Touchscreen v1.0 by Victhor skin
Windows 10 Home 64-bit v1809 desktop - Logitech Z906 5.1 speaker system
Aminifu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th September 2012, 03:01   #367
big_blue
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
The values you enter control the amplitude of what's coming from the left and/or right input that is send to the corresponding output. A 1.0 sends the full input, 0.7071 sends half of the full input, and 0 sends nothing. Since the balance controls are not working yet, you can compensate by using different values for the left and right instead of the same values. For instance, if the right side sounds a little weak, you can slightly increase the values for the right side or slightly decrease the values for the left.

Negative values invert the input. Mixing a inverted signal with the same non-inverted signal cancels the signal out. Most stereo music has the same signals in both channels and different signals. When you mix positive left input and negative right input, the same signals in both the left and right inputs are cancelled out depending on the relative amplitudes. So, setting 1 for the left input and -1 for the right input , you get all that is different in the left and right and cancel out what is the same in both input channels going to the corresponding output.

This lets you remix any way you want and end up with a totally different sound from the original recordings. Overdue stuff and you can mess up the sound.
That's extremely cool. I was just playing around with it and decided I liked the sound of mixing signals with the rear speakers but leaving the front speakers as they are. It's awesome. Since I have a center speaker, would you recommend mixing signals for the front L&R speakers as well as the rears? Or do I lose the full effect? Thanks for all the great information, Maiko is just making my music sound better and better.
big_blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th September 2012, 08:39   #368
big_blue
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 63
Also, winamp crashes occasionally when switching between songs. Any idea why? Perhaps something about the bit rate changing?
big_blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th September 2012, 12:21   #369
Aminifu
Forum King
 
Aminifu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 4,658
Quote:
Originally Posted by big_blue View Post
That's extremely cool. I was just playing around with it and decided I liked the sound of mixing signals with the rear speakers but leaving the front speakers as they are. It's awesome. Since I have a center speaker, would you recommend mixing signals for the front L&R speakers as well as the rears? Or do I lose the full effect? Thanks for all the great information, Maiko is just making my music sound better and better.
Yes it's fun playing sound engineer, but remember you can only enhance and/or rearrange to a point before you turn your music into a distorted mess (and you can't create what is not in the source file to begin with). I recommend doing whatever sounds good to you. One group of settings may not be enough depending on the types of music you listen to, speaker locations, room acoustics, quality of the sound system, quality of the source files, etc.

Use each tool for its intended purpose. Use the matrix to direct sounds to the various speakers and use the WA volume control for loudness instead of over-amplifying the source inputs (I would not use a value greater than 1.7071). Use the WA equalizer to highlight different frequency bands to bring out certain instruments and/or vocals (see link below). Instead of increasing a particular band, it may be better to decrease the bands on each side of it. Use the Enhancer plug-in to emphasize (read it's help page). Make small changes and give your brain a little time to adjust to what your ears are hearing before making further adjustments.

http://digitalprosound.digitalmedian...le.jsp?id=8953

Good Luck and Have Fun.

Winamp Pro v5.666.3516 fully-patched - Komodo X Touchscreen v1.0 by Victhor skin
Windows 10 Home 64-bit v1809 desktop - Logitech Z906 5.1 speaker system
Aminifu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th September 2012, 13:02   #370
Aminifu
Forum King
 
Aminifu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 4,658
Quote:
Originally Posted by big_blue View Post
Also, winamp crashes occasionally when switching between songs. Any idea why? Perhaps something about the bit rate changing?
I have not experienced this problem. Are you sure it's due to Maiko? Force yourself to switch back to the DirectSound output plug-in for awhile.

There may be conflicts between various plug-ins you are using, especially old 3rd party ones that have not been updated for Vista/Windows 7. I'm thinking about that MAD plug-in you mentioned. I remember having problems with it early this year (don't remember the version I was using or exactly what the issue was). As a general rule remove or disable (change the file's extension from dll to bak) all plug-ins you don't use, even official ones.

The thread linked below includes a list of all official plug-ins included with Winamp 5.63.

http://forums.winamp.com/showthread.php?t=345685

You can use the 'Search' box at the bottom of the page to look for posts, in this Maiko thread, related to crashes when switching between songs. Or use the 'Search' link at the top of the page to search within the other Winamp forums. You could start a thread in the Winamp Technical Support forum, especially if the crashes are not only happening with Maiko.

Winamp Pro v5.666.3516 fully-patched - Komodo X Touchscreen v1.0 by Victhor skin
Windows 10 Home 64-bit v1809 desktop - Logitech Z906 5.1 speaker system
Aminifu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th September 2012, 01:39   #371
big_blue
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 63
Now it isn't letting me set exclusive mode. Gives me that "Unable to set Exclusive mode - Device in use" error. Don't suppose there's an easy answer for this? Haha sorry for being such a bother, just want this thing to work already.
big_blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th September 2012, 05:55   #372
big_blue
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 63
Nvm, fixed it by checking "give exclusive mode applications priority". Guess that makes sense.
big_blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th September 2012, 13:54   #373
Aminifu
Forum King
 
Aminifu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 4,658
Quote:
Originally Posted by big_blue View Post
Nvm, fixed it by checking "give exclusive mode applications priority". Guess that makes sense.
You should not need to select that option for things to work.

I know you just want to enjoy your music, but work-arounds should only be temporary 'fixes' until you can get things to work normally.

Maybe you are having the problem of random incomplete Winamp shutdowns and having weird stuff happen when you restart Winamp. What happens is that all the Winamp windows close, but the main process continues to run. This could explain a 'device in use' message.

I had this incomplete shutdown problem and finally traced it to an old 3rd party DSP plug-in I had been using for years (before Vista and Windows 7). Other users who had and solved this problem, also traced it to one or more plug-ins they had (sometimes one or more of the official Winamp portables plug-ins were the culprit, I only use the generic "pmp_usb.dll").

Right-click the Windows taskbar and run the Task Manager. Look for more than 1 instance of Winamp.exe running when 1 instance should be running or an instance(s) still running after Winamp has been shutdown. If you see this, you have to use Task Manager to close the instance(s) that should not be running or reboot the computer. Remember, if this is happening, it is random so it may take awhile (multiple shutdowns and restarts) to show up.

Your rear/side speaker connector issue could be simple miss-wiring of options on the mobo. If it's a faulty board (still under warranty), you should have it replaced before other issues show up.

Good Luck.

Winamp Pro v5.666.3516 fully-patched - Komodo X Touchscreen v1.0 by Victhor skin
Windows 10 Home 64-bit v1809 desktop - Logitech Z906 5.1 speaker system
Aminifu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th September 2012, 21:12   #374
SilverBird775
Senior Member
 
SilverBird775's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Russia
Posts: 237
"give exclusive mode applications priority" option enables the agressive playback resource allocation methodes. It dont ask just terminates other audio streaming process to the selected endpoint device so it effectively appears to be always free. I dont like the idea to put another stress on aplications as i'm not completely sure all of them can terminate the playback gracefully. Even then the application will be in memory still and have some resources allocated. More likely you want them to finish and unload not just stop forced. So keeping this option off and terminating the active or hanging applications in manual is my way of doings. About 95% case issuer to the 'Device in use' error is incomplete application shutdown. Whatever the problem was they better to die soon.

Quote:
There may be conflicts between various plug-ins you are using, especially old 3rd party ones that have not been updated for Vista/Windows 7.
A glaring problem indeed.

Aminifu
0.34 is going to be a major CP (control panel) fix. As i do know you are patiently waiting for a complete 'balance' sheet, there is a quick preview for you. Sorry but 'finest samplerate converter' option will cause even more lag. Will decide is the little quaility gain worth it till release date.

'balance' test build

Now, how the delays are working.
Distance <=> Measurement units * value <=> delay.
The minimum (default) delay is 0, i.e. no delay. Internally the delays will be normalized so at least one channel will have no delay. You take the most practical distance unit first then your favourite "audiophile" chair as the center of the room. Now take a measure of the distanstance in the selected units from the chair to speakers. Enter those values to delay edit fields and you set them! The formula takes a propagation speed of waves in the air, adjust it by the user selected units and multiply it by the entered value. Some units, namely 'samples' and 'millisec' are atomic, they would not be adjusted by sound waves propagation speed thus unaffected by output samplerate generator parameter and in this sense are not quite fit for a speaker calibration purpose.

Please adjust the Delays in stop mode. Matrix&Balance can be adjusted any time.
SilverBird775 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th September 2012, 21:49   #375
Aminifu
Forum King
 
Aminifu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 4,658
Hi SilverBird775,

Thank you for the balance test build. Have not had a chance to try it yet.

So the delays work like I thought. Why are you including the atomic unit types, in what cases are they appropriate to use?

What about the detection of virus/malware in Maiko? Do you think it was a false positive? What about the idea of providing a checksum so that the validity of your files can be checked after we download?

Winamp Pro v5.666.3516 fully-patched - Komodo X Touchscreen v1.0 by Victhor skin
Windows 10 Home 64-bit v1809 desktop - Logitech Z906 5.1 speaker system
Aminifu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th September 2012, 14:28   #376
Stone Free
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by big_blue View Post
Unfortunately the 5.1 option assumes that I have side speakers, not rears, so it doesn't work for my setup. I had to choose 7.1 as it was the only one that included rear speakers.
Hi big_blue,

I saw the same thing, but if you configure the speakers it allows you to say that you have rears not side speakers. I'm at work, and our ADSL Machine with Windows 7 only has a two channel soundcard so I can't guide you through it, but the option is definitely there.
Stone Free is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th September 2012, 15:35   #377
SilverBird775
Senior Member
 
SilverBird775's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Russia
Posts: 237
For a 5.1 it does not matter side or rear speakers you have. They just creating the ambient image and there is two of them. The only definitive thing about them is that they are stereo aligned and located somewhere back and aside. So it does not matter which connector hardwired for a 5.1 mode, rear or side one. Whatever works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
So the delays work like I thought. Why are you including the atomic unit types, in what cases are they appropriate to use?
To create effects by shifting channel delays, for any situation you want them to be shifted. For monotone boring records with a strong channel dependency (crosstalking) a little delay shift trick may enhance the aural expirience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
What about the detection of virus/malware in Maiko? Do you think it was a false positive? What about the idea of providing a checksum so that the validity of your files can be checked after we download?
False positives. It is great there is no positives with a major antiviral brands though. Had i know what piece causing it it would be changed or rewritten . There is a lot of assembler handcoded situations no compiler will be able to generate on it's own. The positives show up along with extensive use of assembler in the code i suppose.

Providing a checksum is fair. For a zip files, is it sufficient?
SilverBird775 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th September 2012, 17:46   #378
Aminifu
Forum King
 
Aminifu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 4,658
Hi SilverBird775,

You really deserve to be paid for your work.

I was up almost all night listening to my 'new' music with the test build. The delay control and ability to balance inputs is awesome. I'm tempted to say balancing the inputs is all that is needed, but from all the controls on the balance tab I see you intend to go further. Once you get it finished, a tutorial on how to properly use it will be needed.

As to the delay for a more precise re-sampler, it is very long but if I have a vote, I say keep the option in-place. I have a few tracks sampled at less than 44.1 KHz and it seems to help them sound better. I was thrown off a bit, when you said the delay happens when format/bitrates change. It's really format/sample rate changes (as noted in Maiko itself).

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverBird775 View Post
For a 5.1 it does not matter side or rear speakers you have. They just creating the ambient image and there is two of them. The only definitive thing about them is that they are stereo aligned and located somewhere back and aside. So it does not matter which connector hardwired for a 5.1 mode, rear or side one. Whatever works.
The thing is, the matrix control grid is not currently marked for side speakers. See post #362.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverBird775 View Post
To create effects by shifting channel delays, for any situation you want them to be shifted. For monotone boring records with a strong channel dependency (crosstalking) a little delay shift trick may enhance the aural expirience.
Thanx for that tip.

I have a few monotone tracks, that use the center channel for input, that I have not been able to play with Maiko. The current matrix control grid does not have a column for center channel input. It seems Maiko currently only picks up input from the left and/or right front input channels.

It's no big deal, I'm usually able to replace these tracks (from occasional careless downloading) with stereo recordings or mono-to-stereo re-recordings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverBird775 View Post
There is a lot of assembler handcoded situations no compiler will be able to generate on it's own. The positives show up along with extensive use of assembler in the code i suppose.

Providing a checksum is fair. For a zip files, is it sufficient?
That would be great. Yes, the reasons for flagging may include that, and some legitimate processes are flagged because the bad guys use them for harmful purposes. False positives are a nuisance to deal with, but I rather deal with them than have something really bad attack my system. I can 'instruct' my security apps to ignore them for files I know are safe.

Winamp Pro v5.666.3516 fully-patched - Komodo X Touchscreen v1.0 by Victhor skin
Windows 10 Home 64-bit v1809 desktop - Logitech Z906 5.1 speaker system

Last edited by Aminifu; 17th September 2012 at 18:53.
Aminifu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th September 2012, 18:58   #379
SilverBird775
Senior Member
 
SilverBird775's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Russia
Posts: 237
The legend:
"F_L" 1 - FRONT_LEFT
"F_R" 2 - FRONT_RIGHT
"F_C" 3 - FRONT_CENTER
"L_F" 4 - LOW_FREQUENCY
"B_L" 5 - BACK_LEFT
"B_R" 6 - BACK_RIGHT
"FLC" 7 - FRONT_LEFT_OF_CENTER
"FRC" 8 - FRONT_RIGHT_OF_CENTER
"B_C" 9 - BACK_CENTER
"S_L" 10 - SIDE_LEFT
"S_R" 11 - SIDE_RIGHT


For a 5.1 (DVD layout) only B_L and B_R are active not S_L and S_R. B_L and B_R are assumed to cover all side-rear-back roles for this layout.

7.1 (Surround) adds two more channels: S_L and S_R. This layout is precise enough to split the rear-back-side channel to define exactly side and exactly back.


Screenshot #362 exposed the matrix calculation glitch for 7.1. It zeroed both S_ and B_ pairs. Fortunately anything can be adjusted in manual until the automatic calulation will be fixed. Unfortunately for a 7.1 layout it can take a some hand work to program all possible input-to-7.1 combinations.
SilverBird775 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th September 2012, 19:30   #380
SilverBird775
Senior Member
 
SilverBird775's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Russia
Posts: 237
By the way

The oldfashioned name for B_L and B_R are Rear Left and Right. The 5.1 layout was the most advanced and demanding. It was so until more complex layouts appeared. Since then Rear's become hardwired Back's even so they still Rear channels essentially. Rear's are covering all the backstage. It may be confusing a bit but they are neither Back nor Side, they are Rear hardwired to Back output pins.

Some codecs are able to re-route the pins, but its a driver business it is not a standard.
SilverBird775 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th September 2012, 19:43   #381
big_blue
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 63
So if my two rear speakers (5.1 system) are defined by S_L and S_R, can I adjust the delay for them? Also, would you consider implementing a testing sound for adjusting levels? It's slightly more challenging using only your music to determine the proper levels.
big_blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th September 2012, 20:13   #382
big_blue
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 63
I tried setting the delays by measuring in feet and my music sounded like garbage. Here's the setup I used (with feet selected as units)


I assumed B_L and B_R could be used to adjust my rear ("side") speakers, since I only had access to those values. Even with those set to 0, the music sounded distorted. Am I doing this wrong?
big_blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th September 2012, 04:41   #383
big_blue
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 63
And now shared mode doesn't let songs play. Seriously, this plugin is starting to become more frustrating than it is awesome. And don't get me wrong, it IS awesome. But I've never experienced so many crashes and errors in Winamp in my life. Shame it isn't more stable :/ Haha, sorry for ranting.
big_blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th September 2012, 07:31   #384
SilverBird775
Senior Member
 
SilverBird775's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Russia
Posts: 237
big_blue
Make sure you did not enabled the finest samplerate quality option by mistake. It's reserved for me and other few, the hopeless guys who do not mind to experience unusually long startup delays.

Well. I've uploaded the latest binary i have (see my homepage). There is a little chance it will work for you but who knows.
SilverBird775 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th September 2012, 07:59   #385
big_blue
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverBird775 View Post
big_blue
Make sure you did not enabled the finest samplerate quality option by mistake. It's reserved for me and other few, the hopeless guys who do not mind to experience unusually long startup delays.

Well. I've uploaded the latest binary i have (see my homepage). There is a little chance it will work for you but who knows.
It's not checked. I may just end up sticking to Directsound. I had a great experience using your plugin, and learned a lot in the process. Too much maintenance for me, though. I know I'm a quitter but I don't consider this a total loss. The MAD plugin still works quite well, and I was able to adjust my speaker levels properly (through the Realtek Audio Manager), so there's that. Anyway, thanks Silverbird and Aminifu for the support, sorry I ended up being a lost cause of sorts. Take care.
big_blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th September 2012, 10:03   #386
Aminifu
Forum King
 
Aminifu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 4,658
Hi big_blue,

Don't Give Up !!!

We're trying to help you, but you are being selective in the info you are providing. Posting problems, but not fully answering questions nor giving feedback to some suggestions. This is probably unintentional in your rush and desire to get things working.

First, your hardware is not working right and we should back up and try to resolve that, then move forward. Your back channels are not recognized by Windows and therefore not by Maiko. If you are stuck with your current work-a-round, then other non-normal things will need to be done moving forward.

What is the exact name and model number of your mobo? What is the exact name and model number of your speaker system? This information will allow for other necessary hardware info to be looked up. If you don't know the name and model of your mobo and your computer is a standard commercial product, what is it's exact name and model number?

The user from post #376 believes you have a configuration problem.

Be it driver, configuration, and/or board, you and we need to know where that problem is.

Some of the conclusions you are jumping to are not right and may cause damage to your system, if you continue to act on them. There is no shame in asking questions about what you are not sure of. There is no need to guess. The only dumb questions are the ones not asked that you don't know the correct answers to.

Use the link below to download the "One for Nunz" plug-in. Install it, run the report of your WA configuration, and post it. Copy and paste it in the post, if you are not able to attach it in a zip file. Be sure to get the plug-in and not the standalone version of "One for Nunz".

http://nunzioweb.com/daz/14nunz.html

We're here for you. You just need to be patient and work with us.

Winamp Pro v5.666.3516 fully-patched - Komodo X Touchscreen v1.0 by Victhor skin
Windows 10 Home 64-bit v1809 desktop - Logitech Z906 5.1 speaker system
Aminifu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th September 2012, 13:06   #387
kerimcem
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 76

blance settings
kerimcem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th September 2012, 17:41   #388
big_blue
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
Hi big_blue,

Don't Give Up !!!

We're trying to help you, but you are being selective in the info you are providing. Posting problems, but not fully answering questions nor giving feedback to some suggestions. This is probably unintentional in your rush and desire to get things working.

First, your hardware is not working right and we should back up and try to resolve that, then move forward. Your back channels are not recognized by Windows and therefore not by Maiko. If you are stuck with your current work-a-round, then other non-normal things will need to be done moving forward.

What is the exact name and model number of your mobo? What is the exact name and model number of your speaker system? This information will allow for other necessary hardware info to be looked up. If you don't know the name and model of your mobo and your computer is a standard commercial product, what is it's exact name and model number?

The user from post #376 believes you have a configuration problem.

Be it driver, configuration, and/or board, you and we need to know where that problem is.

Some of the conclusions you are jumping to are not right and may cause damage to your system, if you continue to act on them. There is no shame in asking questions about what you are not sure of. There is no need to guess. The only dumb questions are the ones not asked that you don't know the correct answers to.

Use the link below to download the "One for Nunz" plug-in. Install it, run the report of your WA configuration, and post it. Copy and paste it in the post, if you are not able to attach it in a zip file. Be sure to get the plug-in and not the standalone version of "One for Nunz".

http://nunzioweb.com/daz/14nunz.html

We're here for you. You just need to be patient and work with us.
Alright, if you insist. By the way, I'm not sure why you think Windows isn't recognizing my speakers properly, I have a 5.1 setup, and two of the speakers are sides. I just happen to be using them as rears. My setup works perfectly fine, the only issue was Maiko crashing Winamp every so often (too often for my liking) and not being able to set exclusive mode at times. It's not that my system isn't configured correctly, it's either something in Winamp or Maiko conflicting. Anyways...

My mobo is from Gigabyte, model GA-MA785G-UD3H. Speakers are Logitech X-530. That plugin list is attached. Good luck?
big_blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th September 2012, 16:05   #389
Aminifu
Forum King
 
Aminifu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 4,658
Quote:
Originally Posted by big_blue View Post
Alright, if you insist. By the way, I'm not sure why you think Windows isn't recognizing my speakers properly, I have a 5.1 setup, and two of the speakers are sides. I just happen to be using them as rears. My setup works perfectly fine, the only issue was Maiko crashing Winamp every so often (too often for my liking) and not being able to set exclusive mode at times. It's not that my system isn't configured correctly, it's either something in Winamp or Maiko conflicting. Anyways...

My mobo is from Gigabyte, model GA-MA785G-UD3H. Speakers are Logitech X-530. That plugin list is attached. Good luck?
It is not normal to have to select 7.1 to use a 5.1 speaker system. I said Windows is not recognizing your speakers properly because of the way you have described things. For example (to summarize what I read), when speakers were plugged into the rear speakers connector and 5.1 was selected in the Windows control applet, the rear speakers selector was grayed out and the side speakers selector was not.

A speaker may be designed to support a particular channel, but usually Windows has no way to know if the speakers are connected properly. Some systems will allow Windows to know (via the hardware's software drivers) if speakers are connected, or not, to each connector. Some very high end speaker systems could be designed to let Windows tell if the speakers are connected properly, the Logitech X-530 is not one of them. I use the X-540 (X-530's grandfather or grandson ).

Also, as SilverBird775 wrote, some speaker designations (rear/side/back) are not technically correct, but the industry generally follows the popular conventions that have been established.

Anyway, give me a little time to go through your hardware specs to see what is what. There are ways to work with most computer stuff, once you know exactly what each piece is supposed to do, and each piece is mostly doing what it is supposed to.

The WA report attachment did not make it through, when it does you will see the attachment notice at the bottom of your post. I have not had a need to use that part of this forum yet, so I can not walk you through how to do this. Others have had trouble making attachments also, so I guess the instructions are not clear enough or are incorrect.

The WA configuration report will help in tracking down the reason for your crashes. It will, at a minimum, narrow down the areas to look at. I, and many others, do not have the problems you are having, so it is likely to be something in your system and/or it's configuration.

I will look at your system specs today, but I will not have much time for this for the next 3 days. I'll post back early next week or sooner if something 'jumps out' right away.

Winamp Pro v5.666.3516 fully-patched - Komodo X Touchscreen v1.0 by Victhor skin
Windows 10 Home 64-bit v1809 desktop - Logitech Z906 5.1 speaker system
Aminifu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th September 2012, 16:40   #390
Aminifu
Forum King
 
Aminifu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 4,658
Hi SilverBird775,

So far version 0.53.test.02 is working without any adverse effects on previously established features. So I guess whatever was done 'under the hood' is working.

I did have to delete the Maiko*.bin files and the entries in Winamp.ini and let them be redone.
Until I did this, my input balance changes would not persist when the next track in the playlist started. One or the other of the input balance controls would revert to it's nominal level.

There were 2 other options in Winamp.ini besides the selected speaker device before I deleted them. Now there is only 1 additional option (for the HD resampler). Sorry I do not remember exactly what the other option said, it was something about latency. I had switched the "Genuine latency formula" option off and back on, so maybe it was related to that.

Do you recommend deleting the Maiko*.bin files and the entries in Winamp.ini when changing versions? This was not needed before, but I guess it would not hurt anything.

Winamp Pro v5.666.3516 fully-patched - Komodo X Touchscreen v1.0 by Victhor skin
Windows 10 Home 64-bit v1809 desktop - Logitech Z906 5.1 speaker system
Aminifu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th September 2012, 16:58   #391
big_blue
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 63
Lemme try attaching it again. Also, I don't have 7.1 selected in my config, I'm using the 5.1 config with side speakers selected. I know you say it is not normal to not be able to select rear speakers, but it works fine as it is. They are slightly off to the side as well as being behind me, giving me (as far as I can tell) the necessary 5.1 experience. Are you saying that I need to be able to set them as rears to get the proper sound out of them? I appreciate your concern and continued effort to help me effectively set up my speakers. Also, please don't stress yourself on my account, whenever you get around to it is fine with me
Attached Files
File Type: zip my_plugin_list.zip (4.9 KB, 246 views)
big_blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th September 2012, 19:52   #392
SilverBird775
Senior Member
 
SilverBird775's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Russia
Posts: 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by big_blue
Also, I don't have 7.1 selected in my config, I'm using the 5.1 config with side speakers selected. I know you say it is not normal to not be able to select rear speakers, but it works fine as it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maiko logs
Output stream:
32 bit float PCM encoding in 7.1 (Surround) setup. 48000Hz rate
Yes you have the most classic 7.1 speaker layout (7.1 surround) selected whatever misinformation the driver panels are saying. That is why i'm asking to quote the log file first. For a 7.1 configurations the plugin is unable to fill the side channels automatically at the moment but you may do it with non-automated matrix.
Going full offtopic i will not recommend to mess with 7.1 because the most media sources and disks are either 5.1 or 2.0. I'm full aware there is an matrixing automation bug for a side channels in Maiko (7.1 sides\backs), but aside of this bitter fact to emulate 7.1 on 5.1 system is rather... nonoptimal.

---

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aminifu
There were 2 other options in Winamp.ini besides the selected speaker device before I deleted them. Now there is only 1 additional option (for the HD resampler). Sorry I do not remember exactly what the other option said, it was something about latency. I had switched the "Genuine latency formula" option off and back on, so maybe it was related to that.
Deleting any option/file is safe, it will just read the safe internal default if not found. When the option change it will recreate the option or file.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aminifu
Do you recommend deleting the Maiko*.bin files and the entries in Winamp.ini when changing versions?
No, it's pointless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aminifu
This was not needed before, but I guess it would not hurt anything.
Yes, it would not hurt. Any time.
SilverBird775 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th September 2012, 22:31   #393
big_blue
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 63
Ah, I see how that can be confusing. Though I stated that I fixed the problem, I neglected to post my status log. After I reconfigured it to be 5.1 with side speakers, the status log correctly displayed that it is outputting 5.1. There's no problem there. The only issue now is that Shared mode doesn't work. It plays the song for less than a second and stops it.

Also, out of curiosity, does unchecking "Slave to input channels when enabled" (running through Windows' mixer) degrade quality?

Edit: Just set up the delay using Samples as units, sounds great. Is it advisable to alter the delay from its actual values? Like to achieve a cooler sound or something? Not something I'm necessarily try to do but I was just wondering if it's something people do.

Edit 2: Now I'm discovering popping/slight static coming from my rear speakers when using delay. Messing around with the delays/levels for them doesn't help.
big_blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th September 2012, 00:46   #394
Aminifu
Forum King
 
Aminifu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 4,658
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverBird775 View Post

Deleting any option/file is safe, it will just read the safe internal default if not found. When the option change it will recreate the option or file.
Hi,

Thanx for the quick response.

I was more interested in why the balance controls reverted when the next track started playing. I assumed when the .bin files are updated, only the affected bit(s) is(are) changed. So something written by test version 1 was affecting test version 2. Or, maybe something in test 2 caused it and having Maiko recreate options and .bin files was only a coincidence?

Anyway, no big deal. Everything is working as expected now.

Winamp Pro v5.666.3516 fully-patched - Komodo X Touchscreen v1.0 by Victhor skin
Windows 10 Home 64-bit v1809 desktop - Logitech Z906 5.1 speaker system
Aminifu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th September 2012, 01:42   #395
гerHody
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1
http://zeroparking.net/198.html
Шаблон Dle 9.2 GameZone , Шаблоны DLE 9.3, Бесплатные шаблоны Dle
гerHody is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th September 2012, 02:18   #396
Aminifu
Forum King
 
Aminifu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 4,658
Quote:
Originally Posted by big_blue View Post
Are you saying that I need to be able to set them as rears to get the proper sound out of them?
No, that is not what I saying, the quality of the sound is not affected at all by sending what could be sent to a back channel is sent to a side channel instead.

I can't get stressed out with this stuff, I love it. I spend as much time tinkering as I do just using my system. I have not finished going over your specs, got sidetracked. Glad to see you figured out that attachment thing.

Anyway, I'm confused by your recent posts as to how you now have things setup. Are you saying you now have the Windows control panel set for 5.1 and your speakers connected to the front, side, and center/sub connectors on your computer? In Maiko, the status log is saying 5.1 output and the matrix mixer is set to manual mode and the top 4 rows and last 2 rows of the first 2 columns allow you to enter numbers?

If this is what you see on the mixer panel, then the .bin file that was created when you had your Windows control panel set for 7.1 was not correctly updated (imo) when you changed that to 5.1. Or, a second .bin file was created for the 5.1 configuration and Makio is somehow using both .bin files to allow you to setup the mixer. I recall you saying before that the 5th and 6th rows would not accept inputs, has that changed? I believe SilverBird775 will be interested in this result.

On my system, when the status log says 5.1 only the top 6 rows of the mixer are active. If this is what you see (or saw before things changed), then your speakers that are connected to the side connector should not have been reproducing sound, since that mixer configuration should send sound to the back connector instead of the side connector.

Slaving, or not, to the input channels will not degrade anything. That just forces the output channels to match the input channels when its enabled. If you have stereo in, you will get stereo out with no upmixing to any other channels. From what I understand, exclusive mode always bypasses the Windows mixer when the Maiko/WA volume control is set full on. The exclusive mode options just control how you want the mode to work.

Some users wanted to bypass the Windows mixer but still have stereo output even if they were setup for more than 2 speakers, so the slaving option was added. They wanted the output to always match the source. When the source was multi-channel provide multi-channel output and when the source was stereo provide stereo output. By default, Maiko matches the output to the speaker setup, always upmixing to match a multi-channel speaker setup.

I would agree that using the Windows mixer (in shared mode) gives you a poorer sound.

As to the popping/slight static, maybe you missed SilverBird775's warning not the change the delay values while a song is playing. Just stop and restart the song and the noise should go away.

Winamp Pro v5.666.3516 fully-patched - Komodo X Touchscreen v1.0 by Victhor skin
Windows 10 Home 64-bit v1809 desktop - Logitech Z906 5.1 speaker system
Aminifu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th September 2012, 05:32   #397
big_blue
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
No, that is not what I saying, the quality of the sound is not affected at all by sending what could be sent to a back channel is sent to a side channel instead.

I can't get stressed out with this stuff, I love it. I spend as much time tinkering as I do just using my system. I have not finished going over your specs, got sidetracked. Glad to see you figured out that attachment thing.

Anyway, I'm confused by your recent posts as to how you now have things setup. Are you saying you now have the Windows control panel set for 5.1 and your speakers connected to the front, side, and center/sub connectors on your computer? In Maiko, the status log is saying 5.1 output and the matrix mixer is set to manual mode and the top 4 rows and last 2 rows of the first 2 columns allow you to enter numbers?

If this is what you see on the mixer panel, then the .bin file that was created when you had your Windows control panel set for 7.1 was not correctly updated (imo) when you changed that to 5.1. Or, a second .bin file was created for the 5.1 configuration and Makio is somehow using both .bin files to allow you to setup the mixer. I recall you saying before that the 5th and 6th rows would not accept inputs, has that changed? I believe SilverBird775 will be interested in this result.

On my system, when the status log says 5.1 only the top 6 rows of the mixer are active. If this is what you see (or saw before things changed), then your speakers that are connected to the side connector should not have been reproducing sound, since that mixer configuration should send sound to the back connector instead of the side connector.

Slaving, or not, to the input channels will not degrade anything. That just forces the output channels to match the input channels when its enabled. If you have stereo in, you will get stereo out with no upmixing to any other channels. From what I understand, exclusive mode always bypasses the Windows mixer when the Maiko/WA volume control is set full on. The exclusive mode options just control how you want the mode to work.

Some users wanted to bypass the Windows mixer but still have stereo output even if they were setup for more than 2 speakers, so the slaving option was added. They wanted the output to always match the source. When the source was multi-channel provide multi-channel output and when the source was stereo provide stereo output. By default, Maiko matches the output to the speaker setup, always upmixing to match a multi-channel speaker setup.

I would agree that using the Windows mixer (in shared mode) gives you a poorer sound.

As to the popping/slight static, maybe you missed SilverBird775's warning not the change the delay values while a song is playing. Just stop and restart the song and the noise should go away.
Yes, I have the front, side, center and bass setup for 5.1. The mixer has the first four and the last two rows open for config, and, after downloading the 2nd test version of Maiko, the last two rows now have editable delays. Also I'm aware that the songs need to be stopped when delays are edited, I still got that result. I've tried stopping and playing the songs but the popping is still there.

Also, there is still the issue that I can't use shared mode without the songs stopping immediately. I also still get error messages somewhat often when setting it in exclusive mode (device in use) which I can only solve through crazy closing/opening tactics, haha. Winamp also crashes when changing songs sometimes, too. So you can see how using this plugin is just flat-out frustrating at this point, right?
I do appreciate your support, though.
big_blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th September 2012, 06:54   #398
big_blue
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 63
Here is my mixer config, with delays set in feet.



With the delays set as they are, I get slight crackling from the rear and front channels. My Status log in Exclusive mode (which works fine) reads:

Input stream:
24 bit PCM encoding in 2.0 (Stereo) setup. 44100Hz rate
MAIKO buffer/latency: 0 samples (0 µs)

Output stream:
24 bit (32bit padded) PCM encoding in 5.1 (Surround) setup. 44100Hz rate
Client buffer: 16384 samples (371520 µs)
Client latency: 23220 µs
Mixer scheduling period (latency): 23220 µs
Minimum device period (latency): 3000 µs

Exclusive mode renderer
Data route: Maiko mixer

Plugin latency reported to Winamp: 48 ms
Peak output loudness detected: - db
-------------------------------------------------
However, in Shared mode (plays music for half a second and stops) it says:

Input stream:
24 bit PCM encoding in 2.0 (Stereo) setup. 44100Hz rate
MAIKO buffer/latency: 7616 samples (172699 µs)

Output stream:
32 bit float PCM encoding in 5.1 (Surround) setup. 48000Hz rate
Client buffer: 16384 samples (341334 µs)
Client latency: 10667 µs
Mixer scheduling period (latency): 10000 µs
Minimum device period (latency): 3000 µs

Shared mode renderer

Plugin latency reported to Winamp: 352 ms
Peak output loudness detected: - db
-------------------------------------------------

Hope that helps.
big_blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th September 2012, 07:21   #399
Aminifu
Forum King
 
Aminifu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 4,658
Hi big_blue,

Yes its frustrating. But like I said I love this stuff and Maiko is still in development so there are bugs to be fixed. It was not your intention, but we are helping find and get the bugs fixed. Your use of the 7.1 setting in Windows reminded SilverBird775 that there are issues with Maiko's handling of 7.1 systems.

Anyway, humor me and disable your MAD plug-in and re-enable the Nullsoft input plug-in for mp3s if you still have it. That may stop the noise in your side channel.

I'm also thinking that if you delete the Maiko .bin files and let them be recreated your mixer panel will change to a 'normal' 5.1 panel with the top 6 rows active. But then you would lose your side channels, since that 'normal' panel view does not support them. So do not do that yet, I would like to hear what SilverBird775 has to say about this.

Thank you for coming back and letting yourself get dragged into this debugging. If you rather check out at this point, I understand.

Winamp Pro v5.666.3516 fully-patched - Komodo X Touchscreen v1.0 by Victhor skin
Windows 10 Home 64-bit v1809 desktop - Logitech Z906 5.1 speaker system
Aminifu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th September 2012, 07:55   #400
SilverBird775
Senior Member
 
SilverBird775's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Russia
Posts: 237
Seems fine to me.
5.1 (Surround) layout with a Side pair is a variation of 5.1 setup. 5.1 (DVD or dolby) is the one with Back's enabled.

big_blue,
Try to increase the client buffer size, 600,800,1000 ms or more.
SilverBird775 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Go Back   Winamp & Shoutcast Forums > Developer Center > Winamp Development

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump