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View Poll Results: Where should the ratings data be saved ?
Of course in tags of files. Never worry for losing. 3 23.08%
In some media library file. Rate and don't forget to backup. 4 30.77%
I don't care. I never rate songs and dont think that its that important 6 46.15%
Voters: 13. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 8th June 2007, 11:45   #1
Muratkhan
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Song Ratings

Why the heck is ratings data not stored in the files (in tags) but in some silly file in media library ? I've lost more then 500 ratings just because of that

I don't like Windows Media Player much but just because it has gained the option to store ratings data in tags, i uninstalled winamp and switched back to it. And i don't think to install winamp before it has this ability or option.

Cmon guys im sure that this is a minor issue for you and dont understand why it hasn't been done before.

Anyone who has a word on this issue pls participate in my poll
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Old 8th June 2007, 12:51   #2
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interesting point of view, but I like to put in the tags only objective informations (like artist, title, album, year) and not subjective ones (like the ratings)

bye
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Old 8th June 2007, 13:07   #3
Muratkhan
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well i don't know the technical part of the subject well but i 've read about a popularity tag in one of the posts and data may be stored there. Storing ratings is surely subjective rather than other information but sometimes even genre tag may be so Anyway you are right in your point of view but extra information won't hurt anyone and you may change it as you like. And when you transfer your files to another computer your ratings data will come with you. I think that there may be an option to rather save it in file or in media library (for computers with more than one users) as it is in Windows Media Player.

Oopps i've forgotten to put this option in my poll
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Old 8th June 2007, 13:18   #4
thefadedline
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I don't like placing subjective info. in my tags either. I know if I like my music and I know what I prefer to listen to, therefore, rating songs will just be a waste of time. I also don't put genre's in my tags because there's so many sub-genre's these days that it isn't possible to actually define a musical style anymore, without it trailing off into argument.
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Old 8th June 2007, 13:41   #5
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The user should be able to put whatever information they want in their tags.

The general fix around here is to put any tag field that Winamp doesn't support into the comment field.

The objective/subjective distinction doesn't work out, because I use special tags for objective data like date of last backup and whether or not the file is to sync with my portable device. The ID3v4 standard supports user-defined fields, and Winamp should too.
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Old 8th June 2007, 13:54   #6
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Hmmm. I find ID3v2 to be perfect. I don't have the time to sit down, rating all of my music and writing comments. It seems like it's just for show. Like I said, I know what I think of my own music collection. I wouldn't sit down and rate my CD collection with a pen and paper so I don't see the point in doing it with a digital collection.
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Old 8th June 2007, 14:13   #7
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I'm talking about ID3v2, which in this case Winamp doesn't fully support. It's fine if you don't use something (personally I don't use ratings either), but it would be nice to view all of my tags when I load my collection into Winamp.

Ratings can be very useful though. Once, for lack of a better option, I used them in a sync query for my portable device. I can see why people would want their ratings to remain if they moved or renamed a file.
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Old 8th June 2007, 14:23   #8
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So are people using the comment window to rate their music now? Do you put comments on your music?
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Old 8th June 2007, 15:02   #9
Muratkhan
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It's more useful than you think

I don't sit down and rate all my music or write comments. I just rate em while they're playing if i have time. It's just one key combination away (if you setup one) like windows + ctrl + 3 ect.. or if you haven't setup one, two clicks from scrolling title bar.

Ratings are pretty useful for creating fast random favorite playlists like top rated playlist in media library. They are also nice for deciding which files to burn from a huge collection. Its not that much timetaking issue if you just do it whenever you want rather than trying to rate all collection at once.
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Old 8th June 2007, 16:20   #10
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One to 5 stars isn't precise enough for me and I have two separate ratings - the song as a whole and the peak. Instead of the stars, I use compatiblity (times better than neutral, based on the principals of science) which is more precise than even 0 to 100.

void BlueWater() {water.color=blue; while(GameRunning) {if (fox.pos == InBlueWater) {fox.air--; FoxDrown(fox.air);} else {fox.air=1800; fox.flags = WantsToGetWet; } WaitFrames(1); }} // My top favorite thing in 2D Sonic (as C)
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Old 8th June 2007, 17:00   #11
thefadedline
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Quote:
Originally posted by ulillillia
One to 5 stars isn't precise enough for me and I have two separate ratings - the song as a whole and the peak. Instead of the stars, I use compatiblity (times better than neutral, based on the principals of science) which is more precise than even 0 to 100.
Why? Incase one day you feel like listening to a 57 score song?
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Old 8th June 2007, 17:19   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by thefadedline
Why? Incase one day you feel like listening to a 57 score song?
Right now, Final Fantasy 1's World Map music and Final Fantasy 6's first World Map music are my top favorite songs tied at 2000. The next highest is Final Fantasy 9's Battle Zone at 1900. There are many steps between 100 and 1000 and the same number from 10 to 100 and 1 to 10.

void BlueWater() {water.color=blue; while(GameRunning) {if (fox.pos == InBlueWater) {fox.air--; FoxDrown(fox.air);} else {fox.air=1800; fox.flags = WantsToGetWet; } WaitFrames(1); }} // My top favorite thing in 2D Sonic (as C)
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Old 8th June 2007, 19:38   #13
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So what do you suggest we do with file formats which don't support the rating field in the tags, or don't even have a tagging system (wav, mod, midi, videos, etc)?
It's not all about mp3 these days, heh :/
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Old 9th June 2007, 01:05   #14
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For those unsupported filetyoes Winamp can store information in its local media db, just as it does now.

Hm, it just occurred to me. This kind of change wouldn't only involve changing gen_ml, would it? in_mp3 would have to be changed as well. All input plugins for types that supported ratings or timestamps or whatever would have to be updated.
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Old 9th June 2007, 05:01   #15
Muratkhan
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Advantages of storing ratings data in files

I think the best solution is a solution with two options where users can select how the rating data should be saved. In media library or in files (tags). I see that many people misunderstand popularity being in tags issue as they think a subjective field in all other objective fields would look bad but in fact this is not quite right as it will rather be a hidden tag just like it is on Windows Media Player 11. When you open tags you cannot see the rating field but when you open the library they are seen and adjustable just with one click. Ratings stored in song files has considerable advantages over it is stored in media library (Currently default option is ratings being saved in files in WMP11)

1-There is no risk of a data loss as data is directly read and written from the file. You won't bother for backing up your library data or worrying to forget.

2-As it does not depend to a file when you move files to another computer or even to your portable device, your ratings data comes with you.

3-It is not affected by moving your files to another directory or reorganising them.

4-It is universal! Does not depend on winamp or media player or whatever you use. Every player MAY read them.
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Old 9th June 2007, 11:15   #16
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As I said, .mp3, .ogg and .flac (and only because Vorbis Comments support any additional custom fields), and maybe .wma are the only (natively supported by Winamp) file formats which support a Rating field in the file tags. I don't think MP4/M4A tags support it, and midi, mod, wav, and most video formats don't have a tagging system (ok, AVI has very limited metadata support).

We use the Media Library database to store the Rating (and PlayCount) because that was the simplest and only way to universally support all file formats.

Also, as far as I know, the Popularimeter frame in ID3v2.4 is a numbered system of 1-250, whereas Winamp only supports 1-5, so if you've used some external tagging app to set a rating of over 5 then Winamp isn't even going to see it... unless we somehow code it to read 1-49 as 1, 50-99 as 2, 100-149 as 3, 150-199 as 4, and 200-250 as 5, heh - but then we also have to write the tag using a similar format...

There's plenty of "Pros" for storing the rating in the mldb and too many "Cons" for trying to store it in the file tags only for formats which support it. Not to mention all the work involved in updating ml_local, nde and all the input plugins. Sure, it might happen one day, might not. We shall see...
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Old 10th June 2007, 07:53   #17
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I'm very much dissapointed

Well then i guess i'll stick to media player for now till i find a program with less lazy coders that give me that OPTION.

As i said before if you think that storing in media library is better, well, go on with it and make it default but you can just add an option to save it to file too. (Even just for the supported file types) By the way I wonder how media player handles the files that doesn't support storing ratings in files.

And popularity meter value being more than 5 is just a minor issue that can easily be overcome even by an amateur coder like me.
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Old 10th June 2007, 09:46   #18
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if you want to export the ratings, you can do in this way:

- create in Winamp 5 different Smart Views, one for each different rating
- export every just created Smart View to a new playlist (one for each different rating, again; better if in .m3u8 format)
- in the freeware tagger Mp3Tag, for each playlist use File -> Load Playlist/Cuesheet to import the files, select all the tracks (ctrl+a), edit the Extended tags (alt+t) and add (ins key) if missing the RATING WMP field with the appropriate value (follow the number range given in the last DJ Egg's post)

and voila! now you have the ratings in the files

some caveats:
- in WMP you have to enable Mantain my star ratings as global ratings in the files in Tools -> Options -> Library tab

- to extend the tag support for other format in WMP, you need M4a/Flac/Ogg/Ape/Mpc Tag Support Plugin for Windows Media Player & Media Center (freeware) or WMP Tag Support Extender (freeware)

- if my memory is good, the RATING WMP field was called POPULARIMETER in old Mp3Tag version, but this is just a mnemonic name, don't worry

PS: an appropriate script for Active Winamp (freeware) could be useful to automate the process
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Old 11th June 2007, 06:39   #19
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Thanks

Thanks for the reply flocksoft i may try it if i reinstall winamp but for now WMP handles rating issue quite well except that i don't like it as much as i do winamp.
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Old 9th October 2007, 13:25   #20
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For some reason few media players embed ratings into the tags themselves. Media Monkey is one of the few players that do support this feature however.

In my opinion, the much more important problem which needs to be addressed, is how Winamp ignores these tag ratings when importing MP3s/OGGs into the library.
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Old 11th October 2007, 04:20   #21
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Quote:
1-There is no risk of a data loss as data is directly read and written from the file. You won't bother for backing up your library data or worrying to forget.

2-As it does not depend to a file when you move files to another computer or even to your portable device, your ratings data comes with you.

3-It is not affected by moving your files to another directory or reorganizing them.

4-It is universal! Does not depend on winamp or media player or whatever you use. Every player MAY read them.
I agree with Muratkhan! The ability to have rating store in the tags is badly needed nowadays! Imagine that you have over 5k - 6k music files in the collection, it'll be a pain to find songs you once liked a long time ago! If your songs have rating, then you can make an automated list that contains all the 4-5 stars songs.

I personally don't waste time sitting down to rate all the songs. I only rate songs I really like. Most of popular media players now supported the embedded rating in ID3v2 tags. You can be sure that your music library (which need lots of time to build) is almost the same even when you decide to switch to another media player. Just like me in this case, I intend to stick with Winamp again, but...!

So come on you Winamp's Developers, the 5.5 version is really great. I think this version will convince many music lovers to change their favorite player. But please think about this feature, think about it!
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Old 26th October 2007, 15:06   #22
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I really appreciate Flocksoft's advice on how to maintain the ratings with scripts or list. That would be very helpful.

However, Shins has a big point about bringing existing in-tag ratings into the Winamp database. I have hundreds of ratings that I would be losing if I tried to bring my library back into Winamp.

I guess maybe do the reverse of Flocksoft's suggestion to put the ratings into Winamp. Make a playlist for each star from my in-tag rating player... read the playlist and apply Winamp ratings to the result.

This is still gonna be a PAIN because I most often set ratings using my Creative Zen media player. Every time I do that I would have to go through the process of updating Winamp's database again.

For me it's all about the media player support... If I use Winamp 5.5 out of the box, it doesn't jive with the ratings used by my device.

Any bright ideas anyone?
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Old 27th October 2007, 00:49   #23
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you can reverse the process, starting in WMP (because WMP reads such ratings), and creating the playlists to import in Winamp:

in WMP, in Library -> Rating, right click on a rating, and select Play from the menu, go in Now Playing tab, in right pane (to show the right pane, see the attached image, left side) select Save Playlist as (attached image, right side) to save the playlist (Winamp supports all the playlist format supported by WMP: .asx, .wpl, .m3u; .m3u doesn't support the Unicode); in Winamp import the playlist, select all the songs and rate them

repeat the process for all the 5 ratings

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Old 30th October 2007, 06:57   #24
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argghh i just spent the last hour looking for confirmation that winamp doesn't read the ratings on my mp3s when i import them. thanks for the info on how to fix this though...
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Old 3rd November 2007, 06:26   #25
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So is there any way to create a smart view that uses the ID3 tags create by WMP for ratings?

Right now that is all that is holding me back from switching to winamp. It is such a useful function as I've got so many mp3's that I don't like and it makes it easier to play the ones I do.
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Old 3rd November 2007, 13:18   #26
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You could just rate your songs as normal in Winamp, then go to:
Media Library -> Local Media or Audio view:

Search: ?rating=5

Select all results, right-click one and select "Edit Selected Items"

Then put ***** in the Comment field

If you use Comment field for something else, then use a different field that you don't use, eg. put a "5" in the Disc field, or ***** in the Composer field, etc.

Repeat for 4, 3, 2, 1 and no rating (?rating isempty)

Then at any time later you can retrieve your ratings by searching for, eg.

?comment has *****

Right-click all results > rate items > 5


If you've used WMP to rate your songs, then no, sorry, but Winamp won't see those ratings, heh.


Though it always pays to regularly make a backup of your media library database, then you won't need to worry about anything (well, as long as the music files always have the same path\filename).


As for whether it will ever be implemented, maybe even just for mp3 (or mp3, ogg, flac, wma) only, well nothing's set in stone... it's not planned for the immediate future (there's far more important things on the huge ToDo list), but this doesn't mean that it will never be implemented.
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Old 3rd November 2007, 22:53   #27
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All that really needs to be changed is to allow the view creation tool to allow searching via all possible ID3 tags, not just the common ones.

The tag is there, I just need to be able to query by that to create the view, then all will be sweet.

I assume that winamp stores it's rating system in the media library somewhere, not the file. I rated a song and there was no new tag or anything related to rating in it.

Also, does anyone know where the ipod rating system is stored. When I rate a song on the ipod, is there any way of transferring that rating back to my media library or the original file. Now that would be good.
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Old 17th June 2008, 01:31   #28
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I support Muratkhan's request. Why - all has been said already.



Quote:
Originally posted by DJ Egg
So what do you suggest we do with file formats which don't support the rating field in the tags, or don't even have a tagging system (wav, mod, midi, videos, etc)?
It's not all about mp3 these days, heh :/
Well not all file formats support album art and not everyone likes going over all their tracks and adding covers, and yet you've made a feature that displays album covers in winamp.
Like it's been suggested, ratings for incompatible filetypes can be still stored in media library.
MP3's, OGGs and some other filetypes are popular enough and deserve some extra features designed for them.

Quote:
Originally posted by DJ Egg
Also, as far as I know, the Popularimeter frame in ID3v2.4 is a numbered system of 1-250, whereas Winamp only supports 1-5, so if you've used some external tagging app to set a rating of over 5 then Winamp isn't even going to see it... unless we somehow code it to read 1-49 as 1, 50-99 as 2, 100-149 as 3, 150-199 as 4, and 200-250 as 5, heh - but then we also have to write the tag using a similar format...
Actually, only one number is responsible for storing the rating.
For example:
POPULARIMETER - |204|0
im not sure what other numbers stand for, but I've checked several songs and in this case (with a value of |204|0 ) "4" is actually a rating.


Quote:
Originally posted by DJ Egg
You could just rate your songs as normal in Winamp, then go to:
Media Library -> Local Media or Audio view:

Search: ?rating=5

Select all results, right-click one and select "Edit Selected Items"

Then put ***** in the Comment field

etc.
...
..
.
1. Comment field is intended to be used for comments, not for ratings. There might be information that is important to user, and the ways suggested by you and flocksoft remove that information.
2. It's just way more work. It can be much simpler if only the correct tag is supported.



You've done a great job making Winamp the way it is now. Lots of plugins and skins, new features with new versions. I'm sure you can implement this feature, and it's not that hard. It might not be as important for you or some people, but there are people who really need this feature. Just as album art display, for example.

upd: I'm glad you're actually considering to implement this feature, and hopefully very little info that I provided about the tag will be helpful.
I hope we'll see this feature very soon, even though it doesn't sound like it. : )

Last edited by jsLoner; 17th June 2008 at 01:46.
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Old 17th June 2008, 09:51   #29
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Being able to store rating information for my MP3s in their ID3 tag is the number one feature that I'm missing in WinAmp.

Really hope that this feature will be implemented (it could be an option to store rating in ID3 tag).
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Old 17th June 2008, 22:43   #30
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Placing ratings and playcounts into the tags and reading them back, seems like a good way to solve the problems. It also has the added benefit of working with other programs. As far as the Winamp problems, maybe the people at Winamp can come up with a better solution. Just importing/exporting to the tags would solve the issue and not change any of the internal workings of the Media Library.

Right now, the current system is too restrictive. If you rearrange directories, all is lost. When I started, I used the directory: /Artist-Album/Songs As my collection has grown I would now like to change it to: /Artist/Album/Songs. This can't be done now without loosing all the data.

I tried to trim some songs with mp3directcut, all the ratings and playcounts were lost.

Currently for me, backing up ratings and playcounts is easy if you have an iPod big enough to hold all of your songs. I use the ml_iPod plugin which can sync these items with the media library. The native plugin may also be able to do this, but I haven't tried it. All directories must still be in static places. This method will also work for moving the data to another computer.
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Old 20th June 2008, 00:23   #31
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Another idea, which is not exactly what's being discussed here, but still might be useful.

It'd be great if we had an option to associate media library ratings and playcounts with tracks not using file directory, but instead using title, artist, album and other tag data.
So that if the files are moved or renamed, the ratings could still be applied to those tracks as long as they have the same tag data as in media library.
It's not as useful as having ratings in ID3 tag, but is still more useful than what we have now.
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Old 15th July 2008, 22:05   #32
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I would suggest, to use some digest algorithm (e.g. SHA1) to create a hash of the file contents (w/o tag info), and use this digest as key in the Media Library.

This solution wouldn't be sensitive for changes of file path/name/tags etc.

(my 2 cents)
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Old 3rd February 2014, 13:05   #33
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Why not an option to choose?

I, for myself, want the ratings to be written to tags (even if it is subjective/personal). Because, if someone wanted another rating for a track, he has to rate it anyway (so it won't matter to him whether he is rating it first time or changing the rating given by someone else).

But, why the heck, we can't have an option in 'Preferences' where does the user want to store his ratings, in the library or in the tag? After all there are many many wares out there which give us the option to choose what format of ratings the user needs!!!!
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Old 3rd February 2014, 13:54   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zopfan View Post

But, why the heck, we can't have an option in 'Preferences' where does the user want to store his ratings, in the library or in the tag? After all there are many many wares out there which give us the option to choose what format of ratings the user needs!!!!
We do.
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Old 3rd February 2014, 19:55   #35
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thankfully, many issues raised in this thread are now moot. not surprising given how old it was prior to resurrection.

you CAN now save ratings to tags for nearly all formats, thank god. you do have to turn it on, as it is not on by default.

also, for id3 files, you can specify your email address. this is a part of the string written for id3 ratings.

some here objected to ratings in files b/c its "subjective." that's nonsense though, imo, b/c the app could account for that, via various methods. multiple ratings identified by strings, like an email addy, could identify the user or purpose for which the rating was made. display options could control what ratings are displayed (or not).

its not really difficult to do any of this, its just tedious, b/c you have to build a lot of handling code, and it needs to work with LOTS of formats, including those that do not have an ID string by spec.

but what a killer feature it would be. each user being able to save their own rating to a file, and / or the ability to have different ratings for different purposes, (think one rating for a funeral, one for a wedding, as a goofy example)

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Old 4th February 2014, 01:55   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSinatra View Post
thankfully, many issues raised in this thread are now moot. not surprising given how old it was prior to resurrection.

you CAN now save ratings to tags for nearly all formats, thank god. you do have to turn it on, as it is not on by default.

also, for id3 files, you can specify your email address. this is a part of the string written for id3 ratings.

some here objected to ratings in files b/c its "subjective." that's nonsense though, imo, b/c the app could account for that, via various methods. multiple ratings identified by strings, like an email addy, could identify the user or purpose for which the rating was made. display options could control what ratings are displayed (or not).

its not really difficult to do any of this, its just tedious, b/c you have to build a lot of handling code, and it needs to work with LOTS of formats, including those that do not have an ID string by spec.

but what a killer feature it would be. each user being able to save their own rating to a file, and / or the ability to have different ratings for different purposes, (think one rating for a funeral, one for a wedding, as a goofy example)
Thank you for your response even if the thread was (equal to) dead. I just posted, since google pointed me to it.


But even after selecting this option, winamp doesn't read the ratings from the ID3 tags of MP3 files (Winamp writes the ratings given by me to the tags OK though).

E.g. Using MMonkey (I use it for all my music organisation, and think it THE BEST), I rate a song five and play the same in WAmp (first, WA takes too long to display the rating of 5 assigned to the played track).
And while listening to it, I change the rating of a particular track to 1 (i.e. in WAmp).

And after that, in MMonkey, I change the rating of the same track back to 5 star. But now problem, seems there is no way to make the Winamp read that rating of 5 star. It'll keep showing me the rating of 1 (which was given by itself).

Hope you would be kind enough to tell me the solution.
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Old 4th February 2014, 03:45   #37
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Try replacing the v4.104 of in_mp3.dll with v4.103 (v4.104 causes crashes for some and issues reading IDv3 tags for others).

http://forums.winamp.com/showthread....50#post2983750

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Old 4th February 2014, 04:26   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zopfan View Post
Thank you for your response even if the thread was (equal to) dead. I just posted, since google pointed me to it.
np.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zopfan View Post
But even after selecting this option, winamp doesn't read the ratings from the ID3 tags of MP3 files (Winamp writes the ratings given by me to the tags OK though).
winamp, in my exp, will always read the id3 tags. however, I am using a beta ver 105 of the in_mp3.dll although I have not heard anyone else have problems with ratings being read by ver 104.

keep in mind, that IF you change info in a tag with another app besides winamp, you will need to RESCAN the file[s] and REFRESH the ML view to see the updates!

Quote:
Originally Posted by zopfan View Post
E.g. Using MMonkey (I use it for all my music organisation, and think it THE BEST), I rate a song five and play the same in WAmp (first, WA takes too long to display the rating of 5 assigned to the played track).
And while listening to it, I change the rating of a particular track to 1 (i.e. in WAmp).

And after that, in MMonkey, I change the rating of the same track back to 5 star. But now problem, seems there is no way to make the Winamp read that rating of 5 star. It'll keep showing me the rating of 1 (which was given by itself).

Hope you would be kind enough to tell me the solution.
I might have already done so above, although to be honest I don't really follow what you are doing or why.

but I can tell you that the latest versions of winamp and MM will basically read and write the same values for POPM for full stars. I actually got the devs at MM to do that.

more info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id3#ID3v2_Rating_tag_issue

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