Old 13th March 2013, 18:17   #1
mdvbilt
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Replay Gain, Best Mix Option?

Hello, I have a question about the Replay Gain feature.

First off, I have already read the very informative article at http://forums.winamp.com/showthread....highlight=gain, but I can't find a good answer to my quesiton.

I use multiple albums across a very, very large playlist. Thousands of files at a time over dozens of Albums. The link above says that in a case like this with multiple albums, to save Replay Gain information as Tracks rather than Albums, through:
Preferences --> Playback --> Replay Gain tab --> Preferred Source (track); then when the Replay Gain is actually calculated, pressing the Save as Track button.
My concern is that it seems that when I highlight Albums in the default Album window (in the Media Library) and run Replay Gain, it calculates it by Album anyway. I.e. if I have six albums highlighted, it appears to calculate them by album, not song versus song across albums. I have tried highlighting the songs in the Media Library bottom Title window, and it seems to calculate them one by one.

Am I missing something? I really need to have the Replay Gain for songs calculated across albums, as I play through my huge Playlists on shuffle, so jumping from Album RG to Album RG doesn't help me much.

Thanks so much for any assistance.
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Old 13th March 2013, 19:16   #2
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Save As Album also saves Track data, but not vice-versa.

I always recommend using the Save As Album option, just so the data is there.
You can then just select "Track" as the "Preferred Source" in Winamp > Prefs > Playback > RG
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Old 13th March 2013, 21:38   #3
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imo, you should always do save as album as long as you have the proper tags and do all the tracks on the album at the same time.

i wish winamp had a feature called "smartgain" where it picked track or album based on the upcoming playlist. but barring that, a button to switch on the fly (like say the 123 button) would be welcome.

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Old 13th March 2013, 23:54   #4
mdvbilt
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RG settings Album/track

Interesting. Yes, I read that it saves the album data, and that does seem to be the way to go. But my question still revolves around the issue of what to do for a Playlist with hundreds or even thousands of MP3s. Quoted from the link above:

"Selecting 'Save as Album' when you save the RG calculation results saves both the album and track values. That way you can use either one when you want to. WA dev's recommended preference is to use 'Save as Album'. Selecting 'Save Track data' when you save the RG calculation results only saves the track values. I recommend using this option if you have included songs from different albums in the same RG calculation. You can redo the RG calculations at any time (if you decide to group song selections by album and add their RG album values later)."

Now, what I'm doing to get the Replay Gain in the first place is Right Click --> Send to --> Calculate Reply Gain.

Just to test, when I do two albums at the same time.. it calculates them separately, or seems to, because it asks to Save them individually. I never see evidence that the RG is happening between albums.

So with the intent of Replay Gain cross-albums in mind, am I still missing something?

Thanks again.

Edit: I have dozens and dozens of albums in any individual playlist, running on the shuffle/random mode. I recognize that nothing will be 100% RG calc'd, but I do it in large batches to keep it as close as possible.
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Old 14th March 2013, 01:45   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdvbilt View Post
Interesting. Yes, I read that it saves the album data, and that does seem to be the way to go. But my question still revolves around the issue of what to do for a Playlist with hundreds or even thousands of MP3s. Quoted from the link above:

"Selecting 'Save as Album' when you save the RG calculation results saves both the album and track values. That way you can use either one when you want to. WA dev's recommended preference is to use 'Save as Album'. Selecting 'Save Track data' when you save the RG calculation results only saves the track values. I recommend using this option if you have included songs from different albums in the same RG calculation. You can redo the RG calculations at any time (if you decide to group song selections by album and add their RG album values later)."
i couldn't disagree with that more, and why he says to do that is a mystery to me. having album RG data is better than not having it, even for tracks from varying sources.

the smart way to do album RG is to do all the tracks from the same album together at the same time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdvbilt View Post
Now, what I'm doing to get the Replay Gain in the first place is Right Click --> Send to --> Calculate Reply Gain.
the way i do it, is i first adjust the pref to not ask me. then when i rip something, i scan it into winamp, and i browse by album artist with art icons, and i right click the artwork and send it to RG. you can do each album individually or send them all at once.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdvbilt View Post
Just to test, when I do two albums at the same time.. it calculates them separately, or seems to, because it asks to Save them individually. I never see evidence that the RG is happening between albums.

So with the intent of Replay Gain cross-albums in mind, am I still missing something?

Thanks again.
i think you got it. track gain is for individual tracks played in a random mix. album gain is to gain or lower the overall avg volume of the entire album, while maintaining the [occassionally anyway] intended differences in volume for tracks on the same album, (think dark side of the moon).

in any case, you don't need to choose save as every time. just let winamp write them automatically by pref. all you MUST make sure of first, is that you have all the correct albumartist and album tags, and you do all the tracks on that album together.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdvbilt View Post
Edit: I have dozens and dozens of albums in any individual playlist, running on the shuffle/random mode. I recognize that nothing will be 100% RG calc'd, but I do it in large batches to keep it as close as possible.
the only time i ever use album RG for playback, is when i am playing two or more tracks from an album back in sequential order. otherwise, track RG is what you want.

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Old 14th March 2013, 03:29   #6
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I don't understand the confusion with the following 2 sentences.

"Selecting 'Save Track data' when you save the RG calculation results only saves the track values. I recommend using this option if you have included songs from different albums in the same RG calculation."

The first sentence is just a simple statement of fact. Would the intention be clearer if the second sentence included 3 more words (underlined), like;

"I recommend using this option if you have not included all the songs from different albums in the same RG calculation." ?

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Old 14th March 2013, 03:58   #7
mdvbilt
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More Replay Gain track v. album

I might be making this far more difficult on myself than it seems, and I can't thank you guys enough for sticking with me. Here's what I'm starting with and the sequence. Maybe I'm confusing myself because have all of my songs digitized already? The links go to screen shots; I didn't post them directly here because of all the space they'd take up.

Settings:
http://imageshack.us/a/img801/3673/56122134.jpg

Starting Point, two random artists selected with multiple albums:
http://imageshack.us/a/img845/73/79806608.jpg

How I send it for Replay Gain Calculation:
http://imageshack.us/a/img202/7392/57170098.jpg

Lastly - what pops up when I let it run through the RG calculation, and why I have no idea if it's going where it should go. None of what happens looks to me like what you're explaining to me. Obviously I'm missing something. But here it is:
http://imageshack.us/a/img13/2038/47422347.jpg

So... now I want to play these guys on Shuffle mode, where the tracks will be closer together track for track than within their own albums.

What do I do?! I'm sorry, I feel so stupid with all of these questions. Thanks again. I feel like I'm doing something completely wrong.
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Old 14th March 2013, 04:35   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdvbilt View Post
I might be making this far more difficult on myself than it seems, and I can't thank you guys enough for sticking with me. Here's what I'm starting with and the sequence. Maybe I'm confusing myself because have all of my songs digitized already? The links go to screen shots; I didn't post them directly here because of all the space they'd take up.

Settings:
http://imageshack.us/a/img801/3673/56122134.jpg
any song in winamp ML is digitized, so i don't follow you there.

in any case, regarding this pic, i uncheck "Ask before writing..." b/c u don't need to be asked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdvbilt View Post
Starting Point, two random artists selected with multiple albums:
http://imageshack.us/a/img845/73/79806608.jpg

How I send it for Replay Gain Calculation:
http://imageshack.us/a/img202/7392/57170098.jpg
i don't see an issue with that, i just do it differently.

i like to use album art icons in the top right, and then highlight each album one at a time to send to RG (from that pane) so i can be sure all the tracks of that album are present.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdvbilt View Post
Lastly - what pops up when I let it run through the RG calculation, and why I have no idea if it's going where it should go. None of what happens looks to me like what you're explaining to me. Obviously I'm missing something. But here it is:
http://imageshack.us/a/img13/2038/47422347.jpg
this is what you will avoid by unchecking that pref.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdvbilt View Post
So... now I want to play these guys on Shuffle mode, where the tracks will be closer together track for track than within their own albums.

What do I do?! I'm sorry, I feel so stupid with all of these questions. Thanks again. I feel like I'm doing something completely wrong.
like i said, just use track for preferred source, unless u are playing an album in sequential track order. in only that case, use album.

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Old 14th March 2013, 04:59   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSinatra View Post
the only time i ever use album RG for playback, is when i am playing two or more tracks from an album back in sequential order. otherwise, track RG is what you want.
Is there a quick way of switching back and forth between using album and track RG for playback without going into the preferences every time? Personally, I always use album RG even when listening to a mix. Mostly because the album and track RG values usually aren't drastically different so it doesn't seem worth the trouble of switching.
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Old 14th March 2013, 05:14   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
I don't understand the confusion with the following 2 sentences.

"Selecting 'Save Track data' when you save the RG calculation results only saves the track values. I recommend using this option if you have included songs from different albums in the same RG calculation."

The first sentence is just a simple statement of fact.
true. no confusion or argument there from anyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
Would the intention be clearer if the second sentence included 3 more words (underlined), like;

"I recommend using this option if you have not included all the songs from different albums in the same RG calculation." ?
i still find either version unclear, but more importantly its the intention i take issue with.

there is no good reason that i'm aware of to not add both track and album RG tags to everything.

what is important to note, is that if you want the most effective album RG tags you can have, then you want to analyze all the tracks [that you have] for any given album at the same time.

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Old 14th March 2013, 05:18   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinsound View Post
Is there a quick way of switching back and forth between using album and track RG for playback without going into the preferences every time? Personally, I always use album RG even when listening to a mix. Mostly because the album and track RG values usually aren't drastically different so it doesn't seem worth the trouble of switching.
how often do you listen to albums in sequential track order vs listening any other way? that answer should dictate which setting you would use. most people, imo, should use track since they aren't listening to whole albums in track order back to back to back, etc.

as to your first question, no, which is why i said this in post 3:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSinatra View Post
i wish winamp had a feature called "smartgain" where it picked track or album based on the upcoming playlist. but barring that, a button to switch on the fly (like say the 123 button) would be welcome.

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Old 14th March 2013, 05:50   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSinatra View Post
how often do you listen to albums in sequential track order vs listening any other way? that answer should dictate which setting you would use. most people, imo, should use track since they aren't listening to whole albums in track order back to back to back, etc.

as to your first question, no, which is why i said this in post 3:
I probably listen to albums more often but I still listen to mixes quite a bit. But it just doesn't seem worth switching since the track gain and album gain usually aren't drastically different. Also, I think using album gain actually does a better job of normalizing things, since some songs are meant to be quieter than others, and by using track gain you're losing some of that dynamic range.

For example, some tracks in an album can have an extremely high track gain compared to the rest because they are meant to be quiet, and I really wouldn't want to have those tracks cranked up that loud.

And the fact that not listening to whole albums has become the norm makes me lament the death of the album, but that's another issue.
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Old 14th March 2013, 05:58   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinsound View Post
I probably listen to albums more often but I still listen to mixes quite a bit. But it just doesn't seem worth switching since the track gain and album gain usually aren't drastically different.
certainly a subjective matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinsound View Post
Also, I think using album gain actually does a better job of normalizing things, since some songs are meant to be quieter than others, and by using track gain you're losing some of that dynamic range.
well, uh, that depends. for albums played in sequential track order, i'd agree. otherwise i would disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinsound View Post
For example, some tracks in an album can have an extremely high track gain compared to the rest because they are meant to be quiet, and I really wouldn't want to have those tracks cranked up that loud.
the point of track RG is to play everything at the same reference level. u are, at best, guessing that the track will be quieter than other tracks in a random mix by using album gain. and there is no loss of dynamic range, only gain. and there is no intention of relative gain changes between tracks in a random mix.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinsound View Post
And the fact that not listening to whole albums has become the norm makes me lament the death of the album, but that's another issue.
i have a lot of music, but very few as a percentage are worth listening to as traditional albums.

still, its one thing squeezebox server had that winamp should adopt, "smartgain."

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Old 14th March 2013, 06:21   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdvbilt View Post
What do I do?! I'm sorry, I feel so stupid with all of these questions. Thanks again. I feel like I'm doing something completely wrong.
Don't feel that way. This stuff can be confusing. Maybe you are still unsure of what to save and what to use for playback. After whatever RG processing you do, check a few tracks in the tag editor (Alt+3) to see if the intended tags were written.

As long as you are including all the tracks (that you have) from each album in the calculation (and the album tags are identical within each group of tracks from each album), it does no harm to calculate and save both the album and track replay gain data in each file.

In this case, I would set the "Preferred Source" to "Album" and disable the "Ask before writing Replay Gain to analyzed files", before using "Send to:" to calculate and store the data. Try it with tracks from 1 or 2 albums and then look at the tracks in the tag editor to see if both the album and track RG tags were written.

Now for playback, you need to decide if you want to hear all tracks at close to the same level (Track mode) or you want to hear the relative differences (if any) between tracks from the same album (Album mode). If you want to hear any album related differences, it makes sense to playback each album's songs together sequentially (but you don't have to, the songs will still be louder or softer in whatever order they are played, you just won't have the artist's intended effect). So before starting playback, go back to the Replay Gain Preferred Source option and select your choice, "Track" or "Album".

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Old 14th March 2013, 06:30   #15
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well, uh, that depends. for albums played in sequential track order, i'd agree. otherwise i would disagree.

the point of track RG is to play everything at the same reference level. u are, at best, guessing that the track will be quieter than other tracks in a random mix by using album gain. and there is no loss of dynamic range, only gain. and there is no intention of relative gain changes between tracks in a random mix.
I guess I disagree. By using album gain you're in a sense matching the something like the average volume of one album with the average volume of another another album, so the extremely quiet tracks would still be quieter than the rest of the mix even if you use album gain. I don't think you would be guessing at all.

So if the average volumes of all the albums match, most tracks (even in a mix) would be played either a little above or a little below that average, with the occasional quiet track being played well below the average. That's the dynamic range I'm referring to, which would be lost if you played all tracks at exactly the same volume. But I guess it just comes down to personal preference.
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Old 14th March 2013, 06:52   #16
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there is no good reason that i'm aware of to not add both track and album RG tags to everything.
Done correctly, there is no harm in adding both tags. But what's the point if you only have a few songs from an album. Also if the album tags in the album's songs are not identical, the results would be incorrect (no album RG tag is generated at all if a file's album tag is empty or is not in the file's header).

It was not my intention to imply not to use RG album tags, if that's how your read things. I was trying to provide info on what is needed to support the use of Winamp's RG album tags. The article also talked about MP3 Gain, which has different requirements for providing replay gain album mode leveling.

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Old 14th March 2013, 07:43   #17
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Originally Posted by lostinsound View Post
I guess I disagree. By using album gain you're in a sense matching the something like the average volume of one album with the average volume of another another album,
no you aren't, not if you are playing individual songs in a random mix from differing albums while using album RG. to suggest otherwise is simply false, b/c many albums wll have individual extremes from the album avg.

you can't say "average volume of an album" and apply it to just one track and then use that to compare to another track from another album and be sure its appropriate. its totally non-sensical and totally outside the reason album RG was made.

its like using "temperature gain" for two entire planets, but you are only applying that planet wide value to one small region on each planet. mexico city or reykjavik would not appreciate it.

Quote:
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so the extremely quiet tracks would still be quieter than the rest of the mix even if you use album gain. I don't think you would be guessing at all.
you are just randomly attaching a value to ALL tracks in such a scenario that is meaningless to them. will it be quieter? yes, in most cases. but does it defeat the point of RG? yes, it does.

speak to me is a +15 track (quiet), but a -3.69 album (louder than reference level). the next song might have an album RG equal to its track gain. so in such a case, speak to me is now ~4db quieter than if no RG was used at all. its even worse if the next track has an album RG thats a plus, while the track is a minus!

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinsound View Post
So if the average volumes of all the albums match, most tracks (even in a mix) would be played either a little above or a little below that average, with the occasional quiet track being played well below the average. That's the dynamic range I'm referring to, which would be lost if you played all tracks at exactly the same volume. But I guess it just comes down to personal preference.
the point of RG to begin with, is to play everything at around the same volume, so you don't have to adjust the volume.

but try an experiment. take a metal song, and take a quiet song, and play them back to back with track gain, and tell me the quiet song doesn't sound quieter? yes, it will likely be more pronounced with album RG, but thats a total charade effect, that no one ever intended in any way.

the main problem with your assumption is that you think there is a lack of meaningful variance between track and album values. but i have many albums where that is not true. yes, some albums are ~ -10db for all tracks so the album is ~ -10db too, but i have lots of albums that have a lot more difference inside them than that.

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Old 14th March 2013, 07:55   #18
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Done correctly, there is no harm in adding both tags. But what's the point if you only have a few songs from an album.
some albums only have a few songs.

besides, if you set it to album for playback, and no album tag is present, what happens? does it use track? does it use the setting for when no tag is present? do i want to leave it up to chance? to whatever the arbitrary behavior of the app is?

i have lots of songs that are the only cut of the album (if an album even exists) that i DL'd or whatnot. it is better for them to have an album RG value that is equal to their track value, than to have none at all, b/c they may be played back with "album" as the preferred source, and i want a value there, no reason to leave it up to chance or the app to decide how to handle it.

and its accurate to do so, b/c the album RG value will equal the reality of what portion of that album i actually have.

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Also if the album tags in the album's songs are not identical, the results would be incorrect (no album RG tag is generated at all if a file's album tag is empty or is not in the file's header).
no argument there, but thats always been the case. garbage in, garbage out.

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Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
It was not my intention to imply not to use RG album tags, if that's how your read things. I was trying to provide info on what is needed to support the use of Winamp's RG album tags. The article also talked about MP3 Gain, which has different requirements for providing replay gain album mode leveling.
i won't debate you over mp3gain here, since thats not being discussed here. but i do think your thread could use some rewriting to make its intentions clear.

i really can't think of any scenario where you would not want to apply both track and album RG and just let winamp do it automatically. i think thats what your thread should be conveying.

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Old 14th March 2013, 09:12   #19
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i won't debate you over mp3gain here, since thats not being discussed here. but i do think your thread could use some rewriting to make its intentions clear.

i really can't think of any scenario where you would not want to apply both track and album RG and just let winamp do it automatically. i think thats what your thread should be conveying.
I appreciate your point of view, but my article conveys what I intended, imo. It discusses what volume leveling is and how replay gain is implemented in Winamp and MP3 Gain. It makes no attempt to guide, or pick, which or how either should be used. Even though this is a Winamp's forum, I did not feel the need to bias the information or only discuss the Winamp implementation.

If a user has a need or desire for Track Mode, Album mode, or both, then either or both should be used as wanted, within the confines needed to use them. In my opinion, volume leveling in general is intended more for track mode and album mode is a special case.

Personally, I prefer to use things as they are intended, as much as possible. I would not apply a RG album mode tag to a single track (that would, in effect, be the same as a RG track mode tag) just so I could include the track in a playlist being played back in album mode. I would only use album mode on, and for, tracks from albums with relative volume differences between their tracks that I want to maintain. But, that's just me.

I also have no problem with thinking outside the box, when needed. It is certainly possible to generate RG album mode tags that have the same effect as RG track mode tags, if necessary. I just prefer to use a nail as a nail and a screw as a screw, instead of using a screw as a nail, when a nail is available.

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Old 14th March 2013, 09:28   #20
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I appreciate your point of view, but my article conveys what I intended, imo.
and it doesn't matter to you that people in this thread have made clear that they don't know what that is?

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Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
It discusses what volume leveling is and how replay gain is implemented in Winamp and MP3 Gain. It makes no attempt to guide, or pick, which or how either should be used.
again, you are dragging mp3gain into this. thats not what was being discussed. what was being discussed is the passage the other poster quoted, where you absolutley give the impression that only track gain should be written in that scenario.

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Even though this is a Winamp's forum, I did not feel the need to slant the information in Winamp's favor or only discuss the Winamp implementation.
and who argued otherwise?

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Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
If a user has a need or desire for Track Mode, Album mode, or both, then either or both should be used as wanted, within the confines needed to use them. In my opinion, volume leveling in general is intended more for track mode and album mode is a special case.
agreed on all counts.

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Personally, I prefer to use things as they are intended, as much as possible. I would not apply a RG album tag to a single track (that would, in effect, be the same as a RG track tag) just so I could include the track in a playlist being played back in album mode.
fine, but don't misuderstand me... the intention is not to do so "just so one can include the track in a playlist being played back in album mode" but rather to be the lesser of two evils. if you DON'T apply the tag, (and why wouldn't you?), then any number of outcomes are possible, and you lose control of the situation. (and keep in mind, other software and hardware will likely use the files, not just winamp)

besides, it accomplishes the goal of getting to the reference level! why wouldn't you want that? how is not having the tag better?

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I would only use album mode on, and for, tracks from albums with relative volume differences between their tracks that I want to maintain. But, that's just me.
again, i agree. but not everyone is so exacting or mindful, and you want to account as best as possible for when people forget or make a mistake in their settings, which i'm sure we both have from time to time; even us!

there is no downside to always adding the album RG tag, thats all i'm trying to say, and your thread seems to suggest otherwise.

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Old 14th March 2013, 09:53   #21
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again, you are dragging mp3gain into this. thats not what was being discussed. what was being discussed is the passage the other poster quoted, where you absolutley give the impression that only track gain should be written in that scenario.
The statement was not to use album mode in the scenario when all the album's files were not included in the calculation. You basically said the same thing.

"the smart way to do album RG is to do all the tracks from the same album together at the same time."

I think the OP was asking how to implement things, not which things where best to implement.

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there is no downside to always adding the album RG tag, thats all i'm trying to say, and your thread seems to suggest otherwise.
I don't think the article was presenting upsides or downsides. It stated what Album mode was designed for. It did not say whether it should always be used or not nor did it present alternate ways to use it.

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Old 14th March 2013, 10:12   #22
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fine, but don't misuderstand me... the intention is not to do so "just so one can include the track in a playlist being played back in album mode" but rather to be the lesser of two evils. if you DON'T apply the tag, (and why wouldn't you?), then any number of outcomes are possible, and you lose control of the situation. (and keep in mind, other software and hardware will likely use the files, not just winamp)
I don't think you understand me, if the album mode is not going to be used for what it was designed for, then what are the two evils? What's the point? Just use track mode! How do you lose control of things? Any app able to understand the RG tags will let the playback mode be set to album or track.

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besides, it accomplishes the goal of getting to the reference level! why wouldn't you want that? how is not having the tag better?
What does album mode have to do with "getting to the reference level"? Winamp's RG has a set level it uses for maximum dB. A track's volume is increased or decreased to this level. Winamp's RG's album mode just uses any relative differences it sees between tracks on an album to make relative adjustments around this predetermined level.

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Old 14th March 2013, 10:12   #23
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I don't think the article was presenting upsides or downsides. It stated what Album mode was designed for. It did not say whether it should always be used or not nor did it present alternate ways to use it.
i'm not trying to argue with you, but god, here's what you wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aminifu
Selecting 'Save as Album' when you save the RG calculation results saves both the album and track values. That way you can use either one when you want to. WA dev's recommended preference is to use 'Save as Album'. Selecting 'Save Track data' when you save the RG calculation results only saves the track values. I recommend using this option if you have included songs from different albums in the same RG calculation.
you are talking about which button to push for saving data and when. you personally recommend (see the bold) to only save TRACK values in that scenario.

if you meant "using this option" for playback, then of course i agree, but that is unclear to say the least, and thats what i think is confusing me and the other poster in this thread. your intentions, given the context, are unclear imo. i am simply trying to help by getting you to clarify what u mean?

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Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
The statement was not to use album mode in the scenario when all the album's files were not included in the calculation. You basically said the same thing.

"the smart way to do album RG is to do all the tracks from the same album together at the same time."

I think the OP was asking how to implement things, not which things where best to implement.
well, all i am trying to say, and the winamp powers that be agree as they posted such, is that its best to simply write both kinds of tags. i still can not come up with a scenario where it is better to not have both kinds of tags. as to which should be used for playback, that is also clear to me but i realize other people will have differing opinions on it.

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Old 14th March 2013, 10:22   #24
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Quote:
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I don't think you understand me, if the album mode is not going to be used for what it was designed for, then what are the two evils? What's the point? Just use track mode! How do you lose control of things? Any app able to understand the RG tags will let the playback mode be set to album or track.
as i said earlier, you might make a mistake. u might forget album RG has been set for playback.

in a perfect world you would never play a track with no album RG tags while album RG is used for playback, but its not a perfect world.

again, why would you not do it? whats the compelling reason to not write album RG tags? you already said there is no harm in doing so, thats the point!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
What does album mode have to do with "getting to the reference level"? Winamp's RG has a set base level it uses. It's album mode just uses any relative differences it sees between tracks on an album to make relative adjustments around this predetermined base level.
we were talking about a single track. if i have 2 albums, one with 10 tracks and one with one track, the idea is for both albums to play at overall the same level, on average.

album RG will accomplish that for both. the 10 tracks will be given a value that meets that reference point while maintaining intended differences between tracks, while the 1 track will also meet that same reference level, it will just be more accurate since the only variance is in the one song, not across 10 songs.

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Old 14th March 2013, 10:26   #25
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well, all i am trying to say, and the winamp powers that be agree as they posted such, is that its best to simply write both kinds of tags. i still can not come up with a scenario where it is better to not have both kinds of tags. as to which should be used for playback, that is also clear to me but i realize other people will have differing opinions on it.
All I'm trying to say is, with all due respect to the 'Winamp Powers That Be' (if that matters), if you are not going to capture accurate album mode data then why capture any at all. If it is possible to capture accurate or mostly accurate data (you have most of the album's tracks), then by all means, save both album and track data.

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Old 14th March 2013, 10:30   #26
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Quote:
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All I'm trying to say is, with all due respect to the 'Winamp Powers That Be' (if that matters), if you are not going to capture accurate album mode data then why capture any at all.
its like pulling teeth.

for the sake of sanity, can you just clarify in plain english, if your recommendation i put in bold above, pertained to how one should SAVE such tags, or to PLAYBACK???

and as to what you just wrote, album RG is only inaccurate if one does not include all the tracks one has for a given album. but having only one track off of a given album, and applying album RG to it, is NOT inaccurate. the two things are not one and the same.

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Old 14th March 2013, 10:49   #27
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as i said earlier, you might make a mistake. u might forget album RG has been set for playback.

in a perfect world you would never play a track with no album RG tags while album RG is used for playback, but its not a perfect world.

again, why would you not do it? whats the compelling reason to not write album RG tags? you already said there is no harm in doing so, thats the point!
I say tough! Someone makes a mistake, they forget, then they will learn to be more careful and remember things (or they won't).

The reasoning for me is simple; Do I want my album tags to be accurate or place holders.

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we were talking about a single track. if i have 2 albums, one with 10 tracks and one with one track, the idea is for both albums to play at overall the same level, on average.

album RG will accomplish that for both. the 10 tracks will be given a value that meets that reference point while maintaining intended differences between tracks, while the 1 track will also meet that same reference level, it will just be more accurate since the only variance is in the one song, not across 10 songs.
More accurate compared to what? The single song will be close to the reference level, but is that where it should be if all the other songs from it's album where available. And please don't tell me you are talking about a 1 song album. Even if you are, I hope you get my point.



Ok, we are not going to change each other's mind, but I hope we understand what each of us are saying.

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Old 14th March 2013, 11:00   #28
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for the sake of sanity, can you just clarify in plain english, if your recommendation i put in bold above, pertained to how one should SAVE such tags, or to PLAYBACK???
It is oblivious from the context, I'm talking about saving tags. I tried to clarify what I meant by the condition I put on that recommendation, much earlier, in post #6 above.

I now give up trying to explain my point of view, I need some sleep.

Stay well.

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Old 14th March 2013, 11:16   #29
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it is indeed "oblivious."

the whole point, is that it is not at all obvious. when you write something, and people are confused by what you wrote, they are either stupid or what you wrote wasn't clear, imo.

so thats one aspect of this. the other aspect is:

you can't have it both ways as to the issue. you claim to not be pushing how to do things one way or the other, but you clearly do. and the recommendation you give, to save only track tags for that circumstance, is imo, bad advice. there is never a compelling reason to not add album RG tags, and you said yourself there is never any harm in it.

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Old 14th March 2013, 11:30   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
I say tough! Someone makes a mistake, they forget, then they will learn to be more careful and remember things (or they won't).

The reasoning for me is simple; Do I want my album tags to be accurate or place holders.
you say tough, i say why should someone get their speakers blown out? which is more compelling? and again, the tags apply to more than just winamp.

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Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
More accurate compared to what? The single song will be close to the reference level, but is that where it should be if all the other songs from it's album where available. And please don't tell me you are talking about a 1 song album. Even if you are, I hope you get my point.

Ok, we are not going to change each other's mind, but I hope we understand what each of us are saying.
all that matters, is what is available, not what may be available. you deal with the material you have, not all the material potentially possible, and thats especially so given you might not want the other material, (often the case in fact). it doesn't matter what the album RG would be if you had the other tracks, b/c you don't have them!

i do have a few genuine "one track albums," but afaic, a single song from a multi-song album i DL is, for all intents and purposes, also "a one track album." it is in fact counted as such in the winamp ML. and it can then be included in an album playlist for playback with album RG on.

again, all upsides, no downsides.

it may offend your notions of what definitions should be, but that shouldn't matter.

it also begs the question, at what point do you not assign album RG tracks? one missing track? 3? 6? 10? or is it by percent?

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Old 14th March 2013, 11:38   #31
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Originally Posted by MrSinatra View Post
it is indeed "oblivious."
I'm not a good speller. You should see the result when I don't spell check and proof read.

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Originally Posted by MrSinatra View Post
the whole point, is that it is not at all obvious. when you write something, and people are confused by what you wrote, they are either stupid or what you wrote wasn't clear, imo.
Or both or neither, imo.

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so thats one aspect of this. the other aspect is:

you can't have it both ways as to the issue. you claim to not be pushing how to do things one way or the other, but you clearly do. and the recommendation you give, to save only track tags for that circumstance, is imo, bad advice. there is never a compelling reason to not add album RG tags, and you said yourself there is never any harm in it.
I just realized it, and you are right. I am pushing for doing with the album mode what the designer intended. I said as much in one or more of the earlier posts. The compelling reasoning for me is not to use album mode if I can't use it accurately for it's intended purpose.

I'm really going to bed, now!

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Old 14th March 2013, 12:27   #32
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it is a shame, imo, that you won't consider rewriting what you wrote, so that people aren't confused by it. i can't understand why you wouldn't be open to making your intended meaning as clear as possible? (and i say that even though i disagree with the intent!)

as to how you have divined that meaning, that one track albums (or whatever the case may be, 2 , 3, 4, etc) are somehow not albums and not worthy of album RG tags as per "the designer" ...that would seem to be between you and your maker.

i see no logic in it at all. i do see practical logic in assigning both types of tags; and thats regardless of whatever the designer may or may not have intended.

but what can't be said is this:

"It was not my intention to imply not to use RG album tags, if that's how your read things"

which you said in post 16.

or this:

"It makes no attempt to guide, or pick, which or how either should be used."

or others just like them in this very thread. or this in another thread:

"But, you know me, I'm more about full disclosure and letting the user decide."

there is no full disclosure here, you are deciding for the user. its much more important what to pick for playback, but you can't choose if you don't have both tags to begin with.

you don't explain why someone should not write album RG tags, and only write track RG tags, u just direct them to do it that way. you simply state that you recommend it, and the vague scenario in which you recommend it, but no pros and cons, and no rationale for why.

i'm not trying to be critical just to be critical. i am offering this as constructive criticism.

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Old 14th March 2013, 14:54   #33
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no you aren't, not if you are playing individual songs in a random mix from differing albums while using album RG. to suggest otherwise is simply false, b/c many albums wll have individual extremes from the album avg.

you can't say "average volume of an album" and apply it to just one track and then use that to compare to another track from another album and be sure its appropriate. its totally non-sensical and totally outside the reason album RG was made.
What I said is not false and it is not non-sensical, it is actually what RG does. It matches the 'loudness' of one album with the 'loudness' of another, bringing them to the same level relative to some reference point. So you're shifting the volume of entire albums so the track gain of individual tracks within the album all vary about the same reference point.

So...
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you are just randomly attaching a value to ALL tracks in such a scenario that is meaningless to them. will it be quieter? yes, in most cases. but does it defeat the point of RG? yes, it does.
the album gain values aren't being attached 'randomly', and to say they are doesn't make any sense. If album gain were truly 'randomly' assigned, it would be completely meaningless in all contexts. Some tracks within an album are louder than the reference point, and some are quieter, but the point is the tracks within an album are either louder or quieter relative the the same reference point from album to album when album gain is applied. It does not defeat the purpose of replay gain at all.

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speak to me is a +15 track (quiet), but a -3.69 album (louder than reference level). the next song might have an album RG equal to its track gain. so in such a case, speak to me is now ~4db quieter than if no RG was used at all. its even worse if the next track has an album RG thats a plus, while the track is a minus!
Yes! Speak To Me is supposed to be quieter than whatever reference point RG uses when calculating album gain. That's my point! Cranking that track up so loud does not make sense to me when it is not meant to be the same volume as everything else, even in a mix.

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but try an experiment. take a metal song, and take a quiet song, and play them back to back with track gain, and tell me the quiet song doesn't sound quieter? yes, it will likely be more pronounced with album RG, but thats a total charade effect, that no one ever intended in any way.

the main problem with your assumption is that you think there is a lack of meaningful variance between track and album values. but i have many albums where that is not true. yes, some albums are ~ -10db for all tracks so the album is ~ -10db too, but i have lots of albums that have a lot more difference inside them than that.
That is not a charade effect. Yes there is variance in loudness from track to track, but as long as that 'loudness' from track to track varies about the same reference point for every album, you are getting meaningful volume changes that aren't 'randomly' assigned.

There was nothing that I said in my previous post that was false. If you go back and re-read it I think you'll see that.
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Old 14th March 2013, 16:39   #34
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MrSinatra - my "ah-hah" moment!

Okay, I think I finally get it! Let me see if I can step through it...

Quote:
any song in winamp ML is digitized, so i don't follow you there.
I only meant that it had been pointed out earlier to go through this process during the initial CD ripping - my songs have been ripped for a long time at this point.

Quote:
Quote:
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Lastly - what pops up when I let it run through the RG calculation, and why I have no idea if it's going where it should go. None of what happens looks to me like what you're explaining to me. Obviously I'm missing something. But here it is:
http://imageshack.us/a/img13/2038/47422347.jpg
this is what you will avoid by unchecking that pref.
Ah-hah! So across multi-albums, I should set it to preferred source: Tracks (the default) and it will take care of things for me.

Quote:
like i said, just use track for preferred source, unless u are playing an album in sequential track order. in only that case, use album.
Then when I go to play the tunes, I just keep it on Tracks rather than Albums, and it will know what to do for me. I never need to see it set to Albums. Have I finally gotten it?
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Old 14th March 2013, 17:29   #35
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Okay, I think I finally get it! Let me see if I can step through it...

I only meant that it had been pointed out earlier to go through this process during the initial CD ripping - my songs have been ripped for a long time at this point.
to get proper album RG tags, you have to wait until after you rip all the tracks from the album you want, to send them all to the RG analyzer.

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Ah-hah! So across multi-albums, I should set it to preferred source: Tracks (the default) and it will take care of things for me.
don't get confused. that pref is ONLY for controlling playback. it has nothing to do with writing tags. just uncheck the thing i said and it will write them all automatically. just make sure you have your AA and album tags correct, and you send all the tracks from one album, to the RG analyzer at the same time.

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Then when I go to play the tunes, I just keep it on Tracks rather than Albums, and it will know what to do for me. I never need to see it set to Albums. Have I finally gotten it?
imo, tracks is what you should always use, UNLESS you are playing an album in sequential track order, and only then if its an album, like DSOTM, where differences in track levels are intended. this is how RG was meant to be used.

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Old 14th March 2013, 18:53   #36
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I'm glad to see that mdvbilt is well on the way to figuring things out. I was afraid he/she may have been put off by all the back and forth.

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it is a shame, imo, that you won't consider rewriting what you wrote, so that people aren't confused by it. i can't understand why you wouldn't be open to making your intended meaning as clear as possible? (and i say that even though i disagree with the intent!)
I should have done a better job of describing what happens if the "Ask before writing Replay Gain to analyzed files" option is disabled or not. That is the only important thing left out, imo. Of course, I could have spent more time proof reading and adjusting things, but the article is what it is. The article has an attached thread for discussing the pros and cons of the article itself. We spent a lot of time in that thread when the article was being written. As you know, some of your suggestions were incorporated and some were not.

As for the RG analysis confirmation option, if it is enabled then there is the opportunity to select which available RG tags (track or album and track) are written to the file(s). If it is not enabled, then Winamp will automatically write both RG tags if it can (album tags will not be written if the file(s) does not have a populated album tag).


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you say tough, i say why should someone get their speakers blown out? which is more compelling? and again, the tags apply to more than just winamp.
We are talking about the RG tags that Winamp writes. Winamp's RG uses the same non-changeable target dB level (presumably 89 dB) for both album and track tag calculations (unlike MP3 Gain, which lets the user select the dB target level). If someone blows their speakers out, then they did much more than miss-selecting Winamp's RG album or track mode tags for playback.

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Old 15th March 2013, 03:30   #37
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imo, tracks is what you should always use, UNLESS you are playing an album in sequential track order, and only then if its an album, like DSOTM, where differences in track levels are intended. this is how RG was meant to be used.
You act the bolded sentence isn't even debatable and you make a little dig without even responding to my post.

I laid out a clear argument for why always using album gain is a legitimate alternative, and the fact is that I always use album gain and I never have to change the volume when the track changes, even when I'm listening to mixes.

If you want slow acoustic ballads to be exactly the same volume as metal songs, that's fine, but not everyone wants that, and the way you use replay gain is not the be all end all of how it should be done.
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Old 15th March 2013, 12:22   #38
Aminifu
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I want to make it clear that my recommendations are not meant to be hard and fast rules. They are just statements of what I would do in certain cases. I will argue about my point of view in an attempt to explain it, but this defense should not be viewed as a desire on my part of forcing a certain action.

I like to be agreed with, who won't. Sometimes I get my facts wrong and welcome corrections. But opinions and facts are not the same thing.

Sometimes there are limited ways to do things. Most times there are several alternatives.

Users should feel free to do whatever they want that is possible to do.

Doing things a certain way may result in less problems for the user and less questions directed to Winamp's support, but that is not my major concern.

I like trying to help others do what is possible. In the process I learn things I was not aware of or a better understanding of alternate uses for things I was aware of. This is why I'm active in the forums and enjoy reading posts from everybody.

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