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Old 27th May 2005, 04:40   #41
Phat
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ops that was me, but you guys know..
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Old 27th May 2005, 10:30   #42
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Tag, I do not know about the other authors but you can put these 4 in and take out my other 4 for winamp 5.093 or 5.1. Thanks. SM
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Old 27th May 2005, 12:25   #43
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If you love foobar2000 so much, why are you here?
Because i love Milkdrop.

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You've made your case and your decision, move on please
Did i repeat myself somewhere? I just answered questions CraigF asked.

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We'll be over here making new features and such and working on our new core as we get time and resources.
Nice to hear! Good luck!

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I wonder if the next thing we open-source will cause such a slam/flame? Makes me wonder if we should even bother.
Where did i badmouth anything that got open-sourced? I didn't talk nicely about Winamp, correct, but thats my real opinion about the topic.
I understand that you are not happy about my post because you are currently working on this baby. Sorry, didn't want to hurt your feelings.

Thats my last post in this thread, ok?
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Old 27th May 2005, 13:23   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by Phat

Winamp 3 does everything we need a player to do.

Milkdrop? Me and Eo.S got tired of not having pixal shaders a long time ago, so we made a milkdrop clone/update that has them.

(It looks bad ass)
http://www.eos4life.com/RM/DoubleCFractal.jpg
http://www.eos4life.com/RM/RMvisualization-clouds.jpg
http://www.eos4life.com/RM/RMvisualization-lighting.jpg
http://www.eos4life.com/RM/RMvisualization-tangents.jpg
http://www.eos4life.com/RM/RMvisualization-texture.jpg
(Those are OLLLD shots, but I'm to lazy/stoned currently to post more =)

We still program milkdrop alot though because we can spend 5 min on a preset and end up with something bomb ass.

(thanks Ryan, you've created the greatest bordem killer)
Looks nice keep us posted.

"Rules are for the guidance of wisemen and the obedience of fools"

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Old 27th May 2005, 17:11   #45
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Cool, I PMed you some links to AVIs, basicly I don't have the bandwith this month currently to share with the general community. =(

(In a few days I will =)

(btw those shots are low rez for our websights sake, and it doesn't respond to music yet)

We're going to do the preset thing tonight. Just haven't had the time to yet.

But will deff. get to it tonight, as it needs to get done.
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Old 27th May 2005, 17:13   #46
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Anyone going to step up to the plate to get shader support into Milkdrop?

Powered by Redbull and Progressive House
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Old 27th May 2005, 18:37   #47
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We've created an HLSL clone of milkdrop in rendermonkey that replicates just about every component as a dx9 shader [per pixel, no artifacts woo hoo]. However we do not have any backend/application programming experience, but are all about providing our support and code towards the effort.
We already have the multipass shader architecture worked out , with concessions for both quality and efficiency accounted for, and then a lot more capability on top of that. So basically all of the front end [aside from UI] is taken care of.

Eo.S.

PS I work as technical artist programming dx9 shaders on Xbox360
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Old 29th May 2005, 15:15   #48
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I'll upload those clips for you. I have plenty of bandwidth.

Any larger more detailed res samples?

aha done in rendermonkey. I have barely used that app. I am sure we can work something out for implementing your pixelshader stuff in MilkDrop. Although I feel if MilKDrop goes 'native' in DX9 pixelshaders should it be included in WInamp there are still a lot of people out there without decent DX9 cards. Most of the time that has included me tbh wth my GF Ti4200. Obviously pixelshaders are the natural step forward though.

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Old 29th May 2005, 20:50   #49
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hmm, HLSL + MD? that sounds interesting. I've only seen sample code HLSL but never got to try programming any of my own. (i'm as amateur with D3D9 as anyone can get!) I don't have a clue, so can anyone point out any new features that will be available by porting these stuff to milkdrop? (i mean, don't these things work with texture stage data, or custom per vertex data?) what input data will we be able to use and what output will they produce?

Anyway, i haven't had any time (or ideas!) lately for a new preset, so have a remix of an older one. (>60fps is recommended) I guess i won't be back with any new presets for a month!
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Old 29th May 2005, 21:24   #50
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as for compatibility I would see a dx9 capable version as having to be say milkdrop 2.0, winamp could come bundled with milkdrop 1.4 and milkdrop 2.0 as separate visualizers. Or maybe milkdrop could be set such that if you only have dx8, then it runs in a 1.4 mode and just won't load the 2.0/dx9 capable presets.

As for what dx9/hlsl gains mikdrop....

the perpixel portion of milkdrop can actually be done per-pixel. So those artifacts you get from having a small mesh size are gone. But you can still do it less then every pixel, for scalable performance. My current model has several passes [since you only get 64 instructions per pass on many dx9 cards]. One pass calculates dx/dy, another sx/sy, and another for cx/cy/rot. This means if my dx/dy is really simple, i can set it's resolution to 32x32 and the sx/sy resolution could still really high. [you can do some crazy stuff by changing cx/cy per pixel].

those nasty sin/cos/tan functions can be really fast. These are the slowest and most expensive functions you can do, even in pixel shaders, so I replaced them with a texture lookup [where the texture represents precalculated sin/cos/tan functions] which makes them really fast.

You just about get all the mathematical syntax and functions of c++.

You can work with vectors, matrices, and arrays.

post-processing effects, like bloom, embossing with lighting effects, etc...

huge particle systems, mmmmmmm.

custom waveforms with more than 1024 steps.

An important thing to note here though, is that this isn't just simply a matter of adding a few dx9 functions on top of milkdrop. Going that route would only really be good for adding some post-processing effects like bloom on top of existing milkdrop. Fully utilizing the benefits of dx9 is a pretty major change in architecture...

Eo.S.
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Old 30th May 2005, 01:12   #51
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Yeah in a later versions of this. I'm looking at a pixelshader for Geiss/MilkDrop myself when learning new OpenGL techniques. It is one of many ideas I have for pixelshaders in visualizations. But for version 2 of MilkDrop then yeah it is big changes to do it all effectlively.

Intresting you implementations of pixelshaders for multiples passes of dx then cx,cy,rot, zoom, etc.

ANd then running dx,dy mesh low and high sx/,sy,rot, etc for detail.

Why not do it all in the dx,dy. sx,sy,rot are converted into dx,dy anyway. A nicely animated pure dx,dy and if you can get zero mesh or in other words pure res. This will be impressive enough if the dx,dy is complex maths enough. It will be more like Gforce res but with realtime moving flowfields (rather than static in Gforce) That was my initial thoughts of writing a Geiss/Milkdrop with pixel shaders.

How does a zeromesh/fullres dx & dy pure presets run on it? Something like the altars of madness ones I did many moons ago?

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Old 30th May 2005, 01:16   #52
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Oh are your lookup tables that good. I have looked at estimating techniques for calculating the sin,cos,etc. But not lookup tables. Estimation techinques could be even quicker. BUt I imagine lookups are far quicker then prue complex sin functions called in the thounsands on pure res 1024x768.

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Old 30th May 2005, 09:09   #53
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Open GL?? Honestly dx9 is far better on pc, it is more properly supported by every video card and well frankly, this is one of the few times where MS actually spent all of their money on making a better product instead of just trying to crush the competition. Befor dx8 however Open GL was king.

Yes, technically everything gets converted into dx/dy, but from the standpoint of preset authors trying to creat cool shit, it's much better to have cx/cy, sx/sy, and dx/dy as separate things, easier to visualize, easier to program. Plus, being able to do each of the three on different levels of accuracy does A LOT for speed and efficiency. Dx9 video cards are fast, but you can still destroy framerate if you do a really complex code set 1024pixels by 1024 pixels. If my dx/dy is generates the same value for every pixel on one frame, why repeat the math every pixel.
But, most importantly of all, there are 4 versions of dx9 pixel shader, ps_3 the newest shit, for next gen cards and xbox360, ps_2_a/b the current hot shit a for ati X700/800/850, ps_2_b for recent nvidia, and then ps_2_0, which comprises about 90% of the dx9 capable cards actually in end users machines. Well, with ps_2_0, you can only do 64 instructions per pixel in one pass. If you try to do cx/cy/sx/sy/dx/dy all in one pass, you can't do very much. Splitting them into a separate pass for each allows enough room for just about everything that's been in any existing preset and then some.

trig functions as tex lookup, they are perfect that i cannot tell the difference. I actually have them precalculated by the shader, and stored in a 512x1 pixel, 16bit float texture. It's linear filtered, so the values are interpolated. At 512 pixels, if you used it to draw a circle as x=sin(n), y=cos(n) it would be the equivalent accuracy of a 512 side n-gon. No one's ever going to notice the faceting on that.....

Tex lookups are better than estimation techniques, as it's essentially dead accurate, and even a 16-bit tex lookup is almost free in this case. AND, it's one instruction, a tex instruction at that which doesn't count agains the 64 instruction limit.

Eo.S.
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Old 30th May 2005, 12:08   #54
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Looking at more OpenGL initialy as taht was more of a background I had but also DX9 but MS are obviously pushing that and I might be doing something for WMP if all goes well. With MilKDrop on DX with teh source I have more reason to learn. tbh there is not too much difference. Easily transfer skills.

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Old 2nd June 2005, 04:42   #55
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Milk Source? Look 2 the Titties

So I am making a DirectX9 port cuz I only have DX9 SDK files and I dont have room for the DX8 SDK on my hard drive at the moment since my raid is almost failed me ... If i smack it real hard it works for about an hour any way I've gotten all the changing the number 8 to 9 out of the way and I have some weird scope problems with some vars named i and j which I've hacked around for now. next comes actually adapting the code for different parameters which should take me a little while. If anyone has some source mods that they have done like pixels shaders and the like do you think you could send me a copy? I don't care if your code looks like shit ... I've done it before where I lie and say my codes looks like crap cuz I was rushed when really I was just lazy just to give me a starting point on some things to do. Again I don't care that your version are still DX8 I just wanna look and poke around untill I can get my other 2 friends to help me out with this project. I havnt touched rendermonkey since it came out, looks like ill be putting my other 40 giger in my machine to make room for all the dev tools ill need. So anyone with anything usefull or cool concerning milk source plz feel free to send me an email sirus20x6@gmail.com
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Old 3rd June 2005, 12:38   #56
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How pixelshaders might look in Milkdrop

Here are some videos that EOS & Phat did showing pixelshadering for a MD type app. Lowres but you get the idea.

www.milkdrop.co.uk/renderdrop/renderdrop-b.avi
www.milkdrop.co.uk/renderdrop/renderdrop-c.avi
www.milkdrop.co.uk/renderdrop/renderdrop-d.avi
www.milkdrop.co.uk/renderdrop/renderdrop-e.avi
www.milkdrop.co.uk/renderdrop/renderdrop-f.avi
www.milkdrop.co.uk/renderdrop/renderdrop-g.avi

Enjoy

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Old 3rd June 2005, 15:07   #57
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ops, dubble post
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Old 3rd June 2005, 15:09   #58
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O yea that's right I forgot to post those... We just have so much to do currently, thanks Rovastar. (o cool you uploaded them on you're sight.)

I haven't forgoten about you're PM Sirus, just haven't gotten time to reply yet.
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Old 4th June 2005, 04:18   #59
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Cool

Well I'm glad I havn't been forgoten

I started out with about over 1100 errors with the first attemp to build and am now down to about 80 or so. I am also not happy with how I fixed all the var. scope problems I had, I don't know what I was smoking but it will but much faster to re-do it again but that will be after I get it to actually build.

I figure before I go to bed tonight my goal will be to have 20 errors or less lets see how it goes
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Old 6th July 2008, 23:30   #60
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aargh, man i am confused... this thread is older than 3 years and i found it in search for the description of an old bug.

just wanted to tell you here, that it's now 4 weeks ago i wrote an email to Ryan Geiss concerning the source code of MD2.0 - but i got no response :-/

hm, but crazy to read how old most of the ideas really were...
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Old 5th October 2008, 07:29   #61
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Yea, me and Eo.S. have been putting pixel shaders in with milkdrop like code for a while now. Not having them was largely why we started developing in other programs. Although now I'm finding it fun to go back and do work in milkdrop. Ev en if it offers less possibilities then some other programs, we still have a substantial amount of good code we can re-purpose..

Some times being restricted in some ways is good, it makes you create different art really. Reminds me of how context free is so simple, yet offers so much.

anyway.
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Old 6th October 2008, 06:15   #62
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Hey Flexi, and Hi Phat- (definitely a major Dude)-- I was a bit was surprised to see this ancient echo from the past suddenly revived!

I have really been wondering if there is any way you or Phat could help explain (to me- the fried egg) in your own words, and in a simple & yet accurate way---- How much of a "LEAP" ahead is "Milkdrop 2".. above & beyond the original?
Like is it really all that big a step beyond the old? I am just wondering, because its hard to tell since many of the presets are older presets. Yet I have seen a few tricks that definitely look NEW graphic wise.

I am not very smart when it comes to understanding it the way you all do. Yet I am not too dumb either, and I good at getting the idea, more or less. So eagerly waiting for you or ANYONE ELSE to give me their opinions on Milkdrop 2 THE SEQUEL!

HONESTLY-- Did Geiss really give you all what you had been waiting for... at least to some degree or on some level? If so--what degree or level. Like HOW much UNTAPPED potential do YOU (or anyone else here) think MD2 has in it???
---
I am also wondering- Did Geiss have to "bow down" to AOL? Or did he have to do any dirty work or any favors for any slimbags? I hope not. Long LIVE GEISS!
---
AAAANNND.......is there really a secret alien base on the dark side of the moon?

--- And with that, I will just hand you the mic. You can take it away, Phat! () I'm all ears. ()



Thanks! And thanks for the memories!

Walking right along that--thin--fine--line- in between -GENIUS & iNsAniTy-...like a tightrope!
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Old 6th October 2008, 16:19   #63
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I'd say if I could use presets with pixel shader 3 on all of my boxes, not just the ones with invidia cards.... it would be a decent leap. Now you can use hlsl and include textures with an extra transparency channel so you can isolate certain areas of the texture (like in photoshop) and do different pixel shader effects on them.

We didn't wait for Geiss, as you can see in this post we had already developed tools to make visuals with shaders... We use a few programs that have shader support now.
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Old 21st October 2008, 03:39   #64
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Can you tell us about these other programs? Are they actual visualizers that any end user can enjoy watching or just tools for developers/artists (for say live parties etc). Either way it would be cool to know about them.

Was this video created in one of these other programs?:
youtube.com/watch?v=J3Efg_K-92M
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Old 21st October 2008, 17:23   #65
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Yea, that was made in VVVV. (it's a super buggy beta though, not suggested for people that don't like a good software fight.) We've done some interactive art displays where one person pilots the space ship, and the other beat boxes into a mic, making the visuals respond....

http://www.ustream*****recorded/145419





^that's us displaying it at a pretty dope venue, a place where casts of movies and TV shows go to workout (that's why there was only about 30 people there, cuz the place totally couldn't get trashed....)



^^we even hacked our visuals into the system they use to display adds. That's a remix of a Luke Brown piece we made in Render Monkey a long time ago. (I don't use it for shows we get paid for, but this was a favor to a friend)

http://picasaweb.google.com/merope/Studio55Takeover#

Photos are my friends we did visuals with there...


Proccessing seems to show some potential, St. Even has been doing some good stuff in it. We've been using a version of Render Monkey to do milkdrop style equations with pixel shaders at every stage of the pipeline. Context Free has some cool animation possibilities. And of course we develop proprietary (our own) software also in C# and XNA.

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