Old 6th March 2009, 15:37   #41
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Always switch on in neutral, no need to touch the clutch to start the engine.

It's perfectly possibly to start in gear if you have to, used to drive an old Champ** with a siezed clutch for hauling logs. Put it in first and switch on to start, put it in top and stamp on the brakes to stop. **the British army version of a jeep made by Rolls Royce no less.

You can even 'start' a vehicle with a dead engine by putting it in gear and using the starter motor, you won't get very far, but enough to move you out of trouble.

The purpose of synchromesh is to match the speed of the engine drive with the propshaft when you change gear.
This is what double de-clutching was for. Depress clutch> gearstick to neutral> engage clutch> rev engine> depress clutch>into gear>engage clutch & rev engine.
Sounds complicated but when you get this right it feels great, cross energies come into play and it has the fluidity of a Thai Chi form.

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Old 6th March 2009, 23:55   #42
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A lot of vehicles require you (with an interlock) to fully depress the clutch to start the engine regardless of the transmission being in neutral. My Tacoma's one of them, but it also has a pushbutton that will allow the engine to crank with the clutch engaged even if the transmission is in gear.

And yes, you can start a vehicle from a dead stop on level ground using the first gear synchronizer -- but it's slow, takes a large amount of force, and causes a significant amount of wear.
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Old 7th March 2009, 01:33   #43
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Originally posted by kingo'mountain
jaz, thats impossible to start without the clutch, right when you turn the key you have to press (disengage)the clutch to start the engine from standstill, unless you live on a hill and just have to roll down the car to rev it up for driving ("shot in the dark" guess)..
It's not impossible - I've done it. I wouldn't recommend it as something to do for a bit of fun, only if you have no other choice, i.e. no response from the clutch pedal... but it can be done.

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Old 9th April 2009, 10:30   #44
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is there a way to get from 2nd gear to creeping in 1st without stopping? my instructor said i should do that when i encounter a give way sign,

i didnt practice that correctly and he's on an out of country trip for the holidays, so i come to you people for that, so when he comes back i'm ready for him..

is it some kind of a special menuvere or do i simply break back to first and before standstill i press the clutch at the creeping\biting point?
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Old 9th April 2009, 11:52   #45
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That's retarded - you only need to use 1st gear, and only SHOULD use 1st gear, when you've come to a complete stop.

If you're slowing down to 5-10kph at a give way, keep it in 2nd and just brake; if it feels like the car will lurch/stall due to you driving at such a low speed, then just push the clutch in until you're ready to accelerate again (still in 2nd gear).

If you're stopping at a give way sign, by all means shift into 1st gear, keep the clutch fully pressed in and come to a stop. Then you're ready to start again from 1st.

After you've driven some more, you'll become more comfortable with letting the clutch out and engine-braking rather than relying on the brakes. That comes with time. At that point, I suppose you would be okay to engine-brake using 1st gear; however I don't think you're at that point just yet.

The more you post of what this instructor says, the more I think he's an idiot.

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Old 9th April 2009, 14:39   #46
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there may be a difference between states, instructors, roads and the way to use them properly in each state.

youre quite older than me i presume, you should know by now not to bash people before you know the background of them and the reasoning for their actions.

he's a teacher's teacher, has lots of experience in both automatic and manual cars, and happens to be in the family so i get the lessons for free, i'm in my early phase of learning as you might have guessed, and he's trying to teach me speed control and car control along with normal driving to try and "cram" some advanced techniques along with the basics to shorten the amount of lessons, and he thinks i can handle it since on my 2nd lesson i was able to drive out of the parking lot without hitting anything throughout.

[edit] okay, read this paragraph again and realised he still sounds like an idiot, but thats not what i meant, he's just more loose with me since my progress is better than an average student, not because we're family {/edit]

blah blah... no ones perfect... blah blah blah... life and death....
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Old 10th April 2009, 00:05   #47
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I must say I really don't get this either. The entire point of 1st gear on just about any car is to get it moving. Once the car is moving, then first has no purpose.

As long as the car is still moving, you should be in second, no matter if you are only creeping along. Some of the US cars have a lock on first gear that prevents the driver form getting back into first unless the car is completely stopped, my car is one of them. There are numerous reasons for this ...

hence why I can't see why anyone would tell you to pop the car into first if it is still moving.
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Old 10th April 2009, 09:34   #48
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well, you know... i couldn't really get it either, i think its only to put less strain on the engine since i'm close to standstill, and maybe prevent it from stalling < not sure about it...

i'm still sure its some sort of speed control for beginners because of the hysterics in using junctions (being the most dangerous part of the road)

i'll ask him and report back, ok?
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Old 10th April 2009, 10:29   #49
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Keep it in second, and use the clutch just like you're starting in first if you have to. Trying to shift into first in a moving vehicle is rough on the transmission because the synchronizer needs significantly more force to speed the countershaft up than with other gears.
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Old 10th April 2009, 12:12   #50
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ok, its my fault then...i didnt explain myself properly, that may be why people dont answer me because they dont understand what i'm trying to say, being non american and all...

the exact proccess is this: i'm driving in the city in closed residential areas, about 30KMH (lazy to convert to miles), i see a give way sign at the junction entrance, i brake slightly to slow down, the instructor says that below 20 is too low for 2nd gear (different for each car) and the rule in any manual car is to adjust your gear to the speed, everybody agrees on that, right?

again... different instructors.. states.. etc, also take in mind i'm driving a bigger car... hyundai tucson.. http://www.hyundaiusa.com/vehicle/tucson/tucson.aspx that should give you more background
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Old 10th April 2009, 15:08   #51
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I understand what you're saying; I was already imagining that exact scenario because you explained it just fine beforehand.

If he says 20 is too low for 2nd gear, put the clutch in but leave it in 2nd. If he tells you to use 1st, tell him, "Am I at a complete stop? No? Then I'm not going to use 1st."

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Old 10th April 2009, 15:19   #52
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hahaha.... he'll sure be shocked, he's a little assertive when it comes to students so i dont think he'll take it lying down.

i never tried this, but can i creep in 2nd? so i can just use the biting point? or is that more wear on the clutch?
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Old 11th April 2009, 01:51   #53
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It's either wear on the clutch, or wear on the synchro. The clutch is significantly larger and much easier to replace...
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Old 13th April 2009, 02:43   #54
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Personally, I use first a lot with my truck. If I'm in extremely slow packed up traffic, I can creep at the right speed without breaking or clutching. It does no harm to the truck to do this. Also, pulling parade trailers is basically the same story. Driving while people pick up rocks in a field, same story. Driving while people unload lengths of pipe for a long project, pulling out stumps, dragging trees in 4-low to a place where they're easier to cut, driving in the woods were steering around trees, stumps, and boulders is a very careful process, driving on a severe slope where an driving too fast could roll you over, etc. It all depends on what you're using the vehicle for. You just have to be careful with the accelerator so you don't cause surging.

Many trucks have multiple "creeper" gears for these purposes.

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Old 13th April 2009, 11:11   #55
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you've found a job then?
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Old 13th April 2009, 11:21   #56
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There's a clear difference between using first/creeper gears for certain tasks (), and changing down into first as you approach a give way ("yield") sign ().

"My heart hates uggos." –J.D.
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Old 13th April 2009, 18:03   #57
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Well, I have to agree with the yield sign thing; I usually just let it stay in 2nd. About the only times I use 1st in regular-commuting is in the extremely slow packed up traffic situation and to start from standstill.

I wish I could say I found a new job, but all the listed off-roading stuff is mainly for firewood, others for other household projects and side gigs.

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Old 13th April 2009, 22:16   #58
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making firewood is a mayor pain in the ass...
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Old 14th April 2009, 00:19   #59
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...but it's good for my mental health. There's nothing in my life that can do as much to heal from a bad day as running a chainsaw, dragging a tree, or swinging a maul to split. No matter how good or bad my life gets, there's just something about it that makes things worth it all. Even stacking of already-split wood is relaxing. Hard to explain, but easy to understand for anyone that takes time to join me when I do it.

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Old 14th April 2009, 00:35   #60
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i imagine you live on some sort of woody area, like... in the middle of nowhere, chopping wood for the fireplace and go to a lake to fish, somehow when someone mentions chopping trees, i see a cabin in the middle of the woods (kinda like blair witch one).

ofcourse america has more isolated towns like that than anywhere else, so each house is far away from one another, please hit me on the head if i'm wrong
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Old 14th April 2009, 02:32   #61
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***WHACK***

There were several times when this was true (from the time I was born until August of 2007), but it's unfortunately not true now. Now I have to leave town to get firewood since I live in the "Great Plains" where there is nothing but grass for as far as the eye can see.

Still, I have connections that allow me to get firewood for free west of here, provided I cut, split and haul it for myself. Also, I still do the same for my dad who lives where your description fits perfectly. Here are a couple pics of the end product:





trees that have fallen due to wind storms that end up in our fire places:



For this pic you have to look at the diagonal tree in the distance:



This one gets a quick glimpse of one of the dogs:



All of that stuff will reduce my and my dad's heating bills over the winter.

...and that cabin you mentioned - here's a feeble attempt I made back when I was 12 years old - got the wood from a dilapidated barn.


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Old 14th April 2009, 12:08   #62
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very nice! ... i'm not a woodsman per se, but i love nature and if i could survive living in somewhere like this, i would, too afraid to eat insects and i have a big phobia and trauma of fish... so that keeps me a city slicker\slacker plus that most of the woods here are not that secluded since people come there to BBQ and lay back..
its property of the "nature defense company" in free translation, so if i were to cut down 1 little tree or build a cabin anywhere in the woods, i would be sent, i kinda understand that, they think that if they allowed one to do it, soon everybody else would follow and the beloved woods will become some unmarked traveling and buisness site.

but enough rambling offtopic?
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Old 14th April 2009, 13:52   #63
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I've gotten so good at clutchless driving in the KW, that I can do it in my personal vehicles, even though they're synchronized.
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Old 14th April 2009, 14:10   #64
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drive an automatic then, will save you on replacing gears ever so frequently
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Old 14th April 2009, 15:39   #65
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It doesn't hurt the gears
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Old 14th April 2009, 23:25   #66
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I can do it with the truck - I just pull it out of gear, and push the stick towards the next gear, and when the RPMs are right, it just sorta falls right in.

I can't downshift clutchless though unless I give it a little gas while pushing the shifter, and when it falls in, the truck gives quite a jerk.

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Old 14th April 2009, 23:57   #67
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Exactly, it's a matter of using your tach at first then once you get accustomed to the engine speed, you can do it by ear.

Big rig drivers only use their clutch at stops, at least that's what I'm aware of.

Another FYI, big trucks have a clutch brake. When you press your clutch all the way, a brake slows/stops the trans from spinning.
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Old 15th April 2009, 00:30   #68
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you mean, the clutch automatically presses the brake?

[edit] or is it a secondary type of break, internal use of the tranny
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Old 15th April 2009, 00:42   #69
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Latter

–adjective 1. being the second mentioned of two (distinguished from former ): I prefer the latter offer to the former one.
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Old 15th April 2009, 00:50   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by kingo'mountain
you mean, the clutch automatically presses the brake?

[edit] or is it a secondary type of break, internal use of the tranny
it actually stops the input shaft, and thus the countershafts, from spinning so that the transmission can be put into gear with the truck stopped. Otherwise, the countershafts will spin for quite a while, and there are no synchronizers on most heavy duty transmissions...
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Old 20th April 2009, 05:22   #71
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Quote:
Originally posted by iomegajaz
That's retarded - you only need to use 1st gear, and only SHOULD use 1st gear, when you've come to a complete stop.
Generally, that's true - in when synchro was first introduced, many manufacturers didn't have it between second and first - the Series 1 and 2 Land Rovers being an example of this.

That said, first is needed for the steep mountain passes, such as Hardknott and Wrynose in the Lake District, which have sections steeper than one in three.....
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Old 20th April 2009, 14:36   #72
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I couldn't use first gear in the camino. It would just sit and spin the tires, getting me nowhere.
Muncie rockcrusher and 4:11 rearend ftw.
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Old 21st April 2009, 00:13   #73
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Weren't el caminos 2-3 speeds on the tree?

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Old 21st April 2009, 10:53   #74
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Some from the factory were but mine wasn't stock.
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Old 29th April 2009, 16:58   #75
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Wow am I late to this thread...

At any rate, I really don't have much useful information to add to the discussion that hasn't already been stated.

I used to drive tandem-axle Chevrolet C8500 dump trucks when I worked for Public Works in Gulfport, though. They had 8-speed Eaton Fuller split-shift transmissions in them. After a bit of practice, I was able to float the gears (clutchless shifting) pretty well. I can actually drive a dump truck better than I can drive a manual-shift car or pickup. The automatic transmissions in my S10 and Colorado have spoiled me.
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Old 29th April 2009, 18:23   #76
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Quote:
Originally posted by iomegajaz
If he says 20 is too low for 2nd gear, put the clutch in but leave it in 2nd. If he tells you to use 1st, tell him, "Am I at a complete stop? No? Then I'm not going to use 1st."
I can think of no situation where I would downshift into first while the car was moving.
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Old 29th April 2009, 19:24   #77
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Quote:
Originally posted by kingo'mountain
ofcourse america has more isolated towns like that than anywhere else, so each house is far away from one another,
hmm, looking at that again really tells what i know about other continents...

i want to correct myself, europe is more like that than america, countries like sweden, netherlands, hungary, maybe canada too (i'm probably wrong, too lazy to open google maps)

and i take back what i said about being able to survive in places like that, as much as i like the wildlife, i'm too much of a city boy to feel comfortable like that, i wouldn't last a week, no TV... no porn... no playstation? ugh!
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Old 29th April 2009, 19:42   #78
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Quote:
Originally posted by kingo'mountain
no TV... no porn... no playstation? ugh!
It's the country, not the stone age. Internet and TV via satellite and even the Yokums have 'lectrical. Really, when ur in tha middle a nowhere and she's rainin like a cow pissin on a flat rock, ain't much ta do 'cept playstation, tee vee and the ol' lady.

Wildlife? It's comin' right for us!



I know a cattle rancher who lives in the middle of nowhere. It takes 3 hours to drive the last 50 miles to his house because it's hardly a road.

When you get there. 7000 sq ft house, hot tub, turboprop airplane, private landing strip, sauna, horses, ATV's. Hell, the bunk house is nicer than my place.

Last edited by rockouthippie; 29th April 2009 at 21:48.
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Old 29th April 2009, 21:23   #79
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yeah, i know its not the stone age, its just that my general knowledge is that america and asia are the most populated continents, after that is ours: the middle east, russia, and then europe (ok, the population-terrain ratio).

besides, as you've probably noticed, i'm exaggerating, thats how i express myself, so never take my posts literally.

and about that friend of yours, wow! ... theres an expression of people like that, not loners, but alot of movies use that expression, forgot what it is.
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Old 29th April 2009, 21:51   #80
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Not a loner. Just uses an airplane like we would use a car.
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